ImaIma1:
1. Well, I haven't heard a testimony given where all the details were mentioned. Like "thank God for my new car, I bought it from the profit I made from my container that landed 3 months ago", or "Thank God for safe delivery, I delivered via CS". You say only what is important.

2. Anyone who wants to know the full details can ask personally. Babies are miracles whether via IVF, surrogacy, adoption, etc.

3. But this is Nairaland where most people don't reason like people in the real world. So I'm not surprised at the responses. When they experience the pain and expenses of IVF and come out with one baby, they will praise God.

1. So you are saying that the format for testimonies in your churches generally don't demand honesty on the part of those telling them, is that it?

2. So, the truth to these testimonies can only be obtained with further probing?

3. Unbelievers also experience the pain and expenses of IVF, yet they don't go around advertising it as miracles without including the important detail of the source. What concerns me and so many others is why churchians tend to be more Dishonest in their reveals than the unbelievers who experience the same hardships in this.

TenQ:
He is not my Pastor!

My mistake!

Kobojunkie:
1. So you are saying that the format for testimonies in your churches generally don't demand honesty on the part of those telling them, is that it?

2. So, the truth to these testimonies can only be obtained with further probing?

3. Unbelievers also experience the pain and expenses of IVF, yet they don't go around advertising it as miracles without including the important detail of the source. What concerns me and so many others is why churchians tend to be more Dishonest in their reveals than the unbelievers who experience the same hardships in this.

It's not dishonesty. Why don't they go ahead and highlight how they were having sex; the positions and frequency and give us full details. At least they are being truthful and giving full disclosure? Why hide any detail?

ImaIma1:
It's not dishonesty. Why don't they go ahead and highlight how they were having sex; the positions and frequency and give us full details. At least they are being truthful and giving full disclosure? Why hide any detail?

Why highlight sex when the miracle was not sourced through sex? A simple mention the IVF path was taken to securing the miracle would suffice. Refusing to include the important detail amounts to lying by omission.

Kobojunkie:
Why highlight sex when the miracle was not sourced through sex? A simple mention the IVF path was taken to securing the miracle would suffice.

If they have the baby through the conception route, can they as well tell us the positions they used?

The point is that these people have been waiting to have a child for 19years. These babies are their miracles. It might not be a miracle to you, but it is to them. They don't need people to belittle their miracle.

When we are not in a situation, we act like we are expert at it and how it should be handled. People who have tried IVF and it failed will be in a better position to tell you that it is a miracle. Maybe then, you will stop judging.

salesman82:

I'll jump on this bandwagon. Without IVF or fertility drugs, over 98% of these families won't have acived their results. Read my previous thread so you'll know I'm not one who isn't into miracles, but it is time we called a spade a spade. If they had to tell you the full story, fertility treatment was in the picture frame.

[qu weote author=ImaIma1 post=108666168]

.

Where did you get this statistics? You just came up with it to hammer in your point. We are quick to judge when we have no experience of what we talk about.

I have someone that has done IVF 3 times and it has failed. If she tries it again and it works out, try to convince her that it's not a miracle. After the fertility treatment, where does the child come from? Did the doctor create it. As the child grows in the womb without deformity, is it by their power?

And it's not the business of the world to know that they were through IVF. Anyone that wants to know full details can approach the couple. Besides, it won't be hidden from friends and family.

But no, we feel we are entitled to every information somehow so that we can bring out our gowns and wigs to judge. We are not o.

Kobojunkie:
I am afraid I don't have access to that link at all. Is there another non subscription source that I can access the video on instead..

Thomas

Congratulations sir/madam

ImaIma1:
1. If they have the baby through the conception route, can they as well tell us the positions they used?

2. The point is that these people have been waiting to have a child for 19years. These babies are their miracles. It might not be a miracle to you, but it is to them. They don't need people to belittle their miracle.

3. When we are not in a situation, we act like we are expert at it and how it should be handled. People who have tried IVF and it failed will be in a better position to tell you that it is a miracle. Maybe then, you will stop judging.

1. If they feel the position is of importance, I don't see why they would want to exclude that detail.

2. Instead the point is that failing the reveal the crucial detail of their miracle is lie by omission, a dishonest tactic. They belittle their own miracle by keeping that detail out of their own reveal.

3. Again, it isn't just you churchians that try IVF and experience failures. The entire world does... that is the more reason why it is best not to omit these things things order to show the world that your beliefs are at least not built on lies and manipulation of obvious truths.

ImaIma1:
Thomas

Who again is Thomas?

DarkJeddi:
Congratulations to them..

Am sure he would forget to mention the wonders of IVF..

All the dedications of the doctors..

And the wonders of modern medical sciences..

Would be drowned under the chorus of Hallelujah!

abeg this ivf is it really working and how much e dey cost Because I won suggest for a sis wey don dey 6yrs without a child ,but I think the husband is the prob

Kobojunkie:
1. If they feel the position is of importance, I don't see why they would want to exclude that detail.

2. Instead the point is that failing the reveal the crucial detail of their miracle is lie by omission, a dishonest tactic. They belittle their own miracle by keeping that detail out of their own reveal.

3. Again, it isn't just you churchians that try IVF and experience failures. The entire world does... that is the more reason why it is best not to omit these things things order to show the world that your beliefs are at least not built on lies and manipulation of obvious truths.

For you, this is a fight against Christians or "churchians" as you call them. That it where your problem is.

Whether Christian or pagan, you are not entitled to every information about people's lives. They can tell their stories to who they choose to while judginas like you can continue to do what you do best.

xynniey:


Well, its live service replay. Since you are looking for evidence perhaps you should find other means to get the info. I have given you a link.

Don't waste your time. He's not looking for clarity. He's looking for where to punch holes. Besides, he is not happy that you have shamed his argument, but would rather want to stick to his assumption that they kept the information a secret.

Hathor5:

Or "we just had twins...it was via missionary style"

ImaIma1:
1. For you, this is a fight against Christians or "churchians" as you call them. That it where your problem is.

2. Whether Christian or pagan, you are not entitled to every information about people's lives. They can tell their stories to who they choose to while judginas like you can continue to do what you do best.

1. There is no fight except one you are imagining yourself to be in there.

2. No one's asking them to divulge their entire life story here, only that the important details not be omitted - it is dishonest not to.

ImaIma1:


Or "we just had twins...it was via missionary style"

I really enjoyed reading your views on the topic today. You are a very empathetic person. I loved it when you said that every baby is a miracle to their parents.

I was quite ignorant too in the past. Until I heard how hard it can be to have a baby with IVF. I know two couples who have been trying for years. One has been successful after years, the other one is still trying, has been trying for almost a decade now.

It's like saying that recovering from cancer is nothing just because modern medicine was involved. It's still a miracle considering that many people do not recover despite the best treatments and free healthcare.

Kobojunkie:
1. There is no fight except one you are imagining yourself to be in there.

2. No one's asking them to divulge their entire life story here, only that the important details not be omitted - it is dishonest not to.

Ok. You can create a hashtag for awareness that anyone who goes through IVF must divulge to you and your likes before calling it a miracle.

Hathor5:




I really enjoyed reading your views on the topic today. You are a very empathetic person. I loved it when you said that every baby is a miracle to their parents.

I was quite ignorant too in the past. Until I heard how hard it can be to have a baby with IVF. I know two couples who have been trying for years. One has been successful after years, the other one is still trying, has been trying for almost a decade now.

It's like saying that recovering from cancer is nothing just because modern medicine was involved. It's still a miracle considering that many people do not recover despite the best treatments and free healthcare.

It's typical for us a humans to judge from afar when we are not in a situation. We are so good at it. I learnt a very long time ago how not to judge, and that has helped me see matters clearly without bias or prejudice.

But many Nairalanders have perfected the act of judging and making people's business theirs and feeling entitled to them. Some, especially one, do not have the ability to empathize. May God open their eyes of their minds

Congratulations to you Pastor
Indeed God is great

ImaIma1:
Ok. You can create a hashtag for awareness that anyone who goes through IVF must divulge to you and your likes before calling it a miracle.

Or I could simply continue informing the average churchians I meet right here on nairaland so they can be more honest when they go make an announcements of the kind of their own.

Kobojunkie:
Or I could simply continue informing the average churchians I meet right here on nairaland so they can be more honest when they go make an announcements of the kind of their own.

You have a wider audience on Twitter, well except your views can only be expressed in the confines of Nairaland where any garbage can be accepted. You can stick to your Nairaland. That's fine.

ImaIma1:
you have a wider audience on Twitter, well except your views can only be expressed in the confines of Nairaland where any garbage can be accepted.

i am not on social media. I have been on nairaland forum for a while and found it reasonable as effective at reaching an audience of Nigerians.

Kobojunkie:
i am not on social media. I have been on nairaland forum for a while and found it reasonable as effective at reaching an audience of Nigerians.

No wonder. You should try Twitter and expand your thinking. Being on NL alone does not help the IQ.

Good luck.

ImaIma1:
No wonder. You should try Twitter and expand your thinking. Being on NL alone does not help the IQ.

Good luck.

If I needed to expand my thinking, I read books instead.

Social media does not help your IQ, instead it increases level of noise you deal with in your regular life. My being here on nairaland is not to impact my intelligence or IQ in anyway

Kobojunkie:
If I needed to expand my thinking, I read books instead.

Social media does not help your IQ, instead it increases level of noise you deal with in your regular life. My being here on nairaland is not to impact my intelligence or IQ in anyway

I said what I said.

Read all the books you want. Apparently, it hasn't helped much. You might need to change strategy. Change is constant. So that we can stop seeing close minded and "un-empathetic" comments from you.

But what do I know...you are already set in your ways and change might be hard for you.

Bon nuit

ImaIma1:
I said what I said.

Read all the books you want. Apparently, it hasn't helped much. You might need to change strategy. Change is constant. So that we can stop seeing close minded and "un-empathetic" comments from you.

But what do I know...you are already set in your ways and change might be hard for you.

Not a single one of my comments in this or any other topic can be described as 'unempathetic' .

The fact that one experiences difficulty were obtaining a child is concerned does not provide one excuse for dishonesty when giving one of your testimonies. Honesty is one of hallmarks of the Christian living. And commonsense is it should apply in all of our dealings, no exceptions.

Kobojunkie:
Not a single one of my comments in this or any other topic can be described as 'unempathetic' .

The fact that one experiences difficulty were obtaining a child is concerned does not provide one excuse for dishonesty when giving one of your testimonies. Honesty is one of hallmarks of the Christian living. And commonsense is it should apply in all of our dealings, no exceptions.

Dishonesty indeed. Amebo.

ImaIma1:
Dishonesty indeed. Amebo.

For future, learn to check your emotions at the door before you engage in conversation. That way you can maybe more intelligently argue whatever it is you have to say without the disconnected references.

Kobojunkie:
For future, learn to check your emotions at the door before you engage in conversation. That way you can maybe more intelligently argue whatever it is you have to say without the disconnected references.

Amebo

ImaIma1:
Amebo

Thanks for pointing it out.

DarkJeddi:
Congratulations to them..
Am sure he would forget to mention the wonders of IVF..
All the dedications of the doctors..
And the wonders of modern medical sciences..
Would be drowned under the chorus of Hallelujah!

NobleRace:


Yes. Ignorant people see them so until they die and discover that there's more to life than whàt they see on earth.

You or one of your brainwashed fellows died and came back to tell us that? You die, you ended. Those who brought religions to you even moved away from it many years ago. Lol