GetMeRight:


You or one of your brainwashed fellows died and came back to tell us that? You die, you ended. Those who brought religions to you even moved away from it many years ago. Lol

Religion is a man made thing. It's a burden with no guarantee of eternity. Jesus didn't bring religion. Religion kills. Jesus saves.

NobleRace:


Religion is a man made thing. It's a burden with no guarantee of eternity. Jesus didn't bring religion. Religion kills. Jesus saves.

Yeah, just like he saved himself, right?

GetMeRight:


Yeah, just like he saved himself, right?

Whatever you know of Jesus, you heard it from the Bible. You cannot be wiser than the narration you're scorning.

Jesus came to die for man as it was prophesied. He fulfilled the prophecy. He died and rose again. And now He lives forevermore.

Kobojunkie:
Um....

Sigh! Here's what you can obtain from an online search ln this topic....maybe it wil help you since your obviously don't care to understand what Jesus Christ said in that context. https://www.quora.com/Do-eunuchs-have-sexual-desires

https://www.quora.com/Can-castrated-men-have-sex-And-what-are-the-long-term-effects-of-castration

https://www.quora.com/Can-men-who-are-castrated-still-have-sex-and-ejaculate

https://goaskalice.columbia.edu/answered-questions/castration-effects

No wonder. That's why you misinterpret scriptures.

The context is about self control. Not about having actual sex.

Where did you get this statistics? (You failed to read my earlier post where I said I work for churches on the highest level on earth, with all rh major Nigerian preachers in submission to the one I work for outside Nigeria's shores). It is the business of the world, because even though IVF was involved or fertility drugs (most likely in this case), no mention of it is made, with the storyline being changed to some spiritual incident that never occured.. I believe in miracles and I've seen more actual miracles than probably all of nairaland combined. A narrative is painted that the person in need prayed, nothing else worked and out of no where a child came. Regarding stats, a woman is most likely to conceive after miscarriages and failed IVF's, however most are not in an emotional state to keep going after some do not conceive through these methods. IVF and Fertility treatments are medical means by which God heals via his knowledge given to man and the route should be made known to help others. (Read my post on this thread). It's similar to a person who has had triple bypass heart surgery climbing a pulpit to testify without stating how it was done, while shifting all the glory to the church and not those to whom the honour is due. The presence of an IVF or fertility drug process does not equal a lack of God's working or doings.

ImaIma1:






Where did you get this statistics? (You failed to read my earlier post where I said I work for churches on the highest level on earth, with all rh major Nigerian preachers in submission to the one I work for outside Nigeria's shores). It is the business of the world, because even though IVF was involved or fertility drugs (most likely in this case), no mention of it is made, with the storyline being changed to some spiritual incident that never occured.. I believe in miracles and I've seen more actual miracles than probably all of nairaland combined. A narrative is painted that the person in need prayed, nothing else worked and out of no where a child came. Regarding stats, a woman is most likely to conceive after miscarriages and failed IVF's, however most are not in an emotional state to keep going after some do not conceive through these methods. IVF and Fertility treatments are medical means by which God heals via his knowledge given to man and the route should be made known to help others. (Read my post on this thread). It's similar to a person who has had triple bypass heart surgery climbing a pulpit to testify without stating how it was done, while shifting all the glory to the church and not those to whom the honour is due. The presence of an IVF or fertility drug process does not equal a lack of God's working or doings.



You just came up with it to hammer in your point. We are quick to judge when we have no experience of what we talk about.

I have someone that has done IVF 3 times and it has failed. If she tries it again and it works out, try to convince her that it's not a miracle. After the fertility treatment, where does the child come from? Did the doctor create it. As the child grows in the womb without deformity, is it by their power?

And it's not the business of the world to know that they were through IVF. Anyone that wants to know full details can approach the couple. Besides, it won't be hidden from friends and family.

But no, we feel we are entitled to every information somehow so that we can bring out our gowns and wigs to judge. We are not o.

[quote author=salesman82 post=108689374][/quote]

Guy, even the Bible says prayer has to go with works. You cannot pray in a vacuum. Babies are miracles. As earlier mentioned, it is a miracle to the parents. It might not be a miracle to you.

Do you know how many failed IVFs they had? what the mother went through? Or how all 4 babies developed in the womb without deformities or death? Is that a miracle or not? Or was it the doctor's power?

Don't try to belittle a miracle. IVFs fail...they are not 100%. The couple don't need to broadcast their journey. All the world needs to know is that a couple were blessed with babies after 19yrs of waiting.

Anyone that wants to know what they did it, that probably needs that sort of intervention can meet them. I'm sure they will be glad to refer them. All the people I know that did IVF didn't keep it a secret. The information is not for people that it doesn't concern.

Jeezuzpick:


You know IVF fails?

You know it can and does result in serious health issues for the woman undergoing the process?

The best surgeons operate and the patient still dies.

The richest don't get to choose when to die in spite of the cutting edge technology they can buy.

Off point. This one no fail.

Let me summarise this incident. Without IVF or fertility drugs, there would have been no baby. That applies to over 95% of cases. Sarah and Abraham didn't have IVF or fertility drugs to share their kind of story. It is time people stopped twisting their story to match Abraham and Sarah own. No IVF and Fertility drugs, no babies.. Not one of them when describing their events to the wider world tells the full tale and that's misselling and misleading in worldy and Godly terms.

Let me use your words and add to it.

All the world needs to know is that a couple were blessed with babies after 19yrs of waiting via IVF or fertility drugs (YOU FORGOT TO ADD THAT PART WHICH IS MISLEADING OF THE PROCESS AND A LIE BASED ON THE GOD CHRISTIANS SERVE).

ImaIma1:


Guy, even the Bible says prayer has to go with works. You cannot pray in a vacuum. Babies are miracles. As earlier mentioned, it is a miracle to the parents. It might not be a miracle to you.

Do you know how many failed IVFs they had? what the mother went through? Or how all 4 babies developed in the womb without deformities or death? Is that a miracle or not? Or was it the doctor's power?

Don't try to belittle a miracle. IVFs fail...they are not 100%. The couple don't need to broadcast their journey. All the world needs to know is that a couple were blessed with babies after 19yrs of waiting.

Anyone that wants to know what they did it, that probably needs that sort of intervention can meet them. I'm sure they will be glad to refer them. All the people I know that did IVF didn't keep it a secret. The information is not for people that it doesn't concern.

salesman82:
Let me summarise this incident. Without IVF or fertility drugs, there would have been no baby. That applies to over 95% of cases. Sarah and Abraham didn't have IVF or fertility drugs to share their kind of story. It is time people stopped twisting their story to match Abraham and Sarah own. No IVF and Fertility drugs, no babies.. Not one of them when describing their events to the wider world tells the full tale and that's misselling and misleading in worldy and Godly terms.

Let me use your words and add to it.

All the world needs to know is that a couple were blessed with babies after 19yrs of waiting via IVF or fertility drugs (YOU FORGOT TO ADD THAT PART WHICH IS MISLEADING OF THE PROCESS AND A LIE BASED ON THE GOD CHRISTIANS SERVE).

Without a womb to carry it, there would have been no babies. It's still the woman's eggs and the man's sperm. Fertility drugs or not. Or can the fertility drugs work on a dead person?

Without God to keep the babies healthy and alive till full term, there would have been no babies. Fertility drugs or not.

God is still to be praised! Didn't he make sure the mother and children came out alive? Or was that the doctor's power? Sp because it's through fertility treatments, God had no hand in it?

No wonder the country is where it is. Lame explanations and reasons are given. Some other person (might be you was ranting about how they know three people who have tried IVF. Let's look at the financial status of most Nigerians. Almost all Nigerians cannot afford IVF as a lot live on less than a dollar a day. The chances of the average Nigerian on the street knowing a person who has done IVF is almost zero. What that means is that the only person majority of the masses will see, is someone who climbs a pulpit, erases the part where they had IVF and replace it with fasgin stories and so on. That's what they build their perception on and that is false. They come up to testify how they have not had a child for twenty years, how they prayed, they remove the part of help which is available (fertility drugs were most lily used in this case and hence four kids at once). Think outside your small circle when you type, it's a global world with global audiences and the need for a global solution to problems. When a real miracle occurs, we can talk. As I said, I've seen more miracles than all of nairaland combined (it's just my role in life).



Give honour to whom it is due, which is the medical field which worked via the knowledge given to them by God to achieve such results. If you owe 5000 and it got paid, the key is that it got paid. Whether you came across a windfall, a contract, were forgiven, etc, your status said paid. People should have this approach with achieving victory. He causes us to always triumph in all things in Christ. Whether that means via natural conception, IVF or fertility drugs, you've triumphed over infertility and should still thank him and the process he used.

ImaIma1:


Without a womb to carry it, there would have been no babies. It's still the woman's eggs and the man's sperm. Fertility drugs or not. Or can the fertility drugs work on a dead person?

Without God to keep the babies healthy and alive till full term, there would have been no babies. Fertility drugs or not.

God is still to be praised! Didn't he make sure the mother and children came out alive? Or was that the doctor's power? Sp because it's through fertility treatments, God had no hand in it?

Read my comments and you'll see I never said God didn't have a hand in it. I'll copy my last comment for that purpose. The doctors also had a hand in it, let's not forget that part.

salesman82:
No wonder the country is where it is. Lame explanations and reasons are given. Some other person (might be you was ranting about how they know three people who have tried IVF. Let's look at the financial status of most Nigerians. Almost all Nigerians cannot afford IVF as a lot live on less than a dollar a day. The chances of the average Nigerian on the street knowing a person who has done IVF is almost zero. What that means is that the only person majority of the masses will see, is someone who climbs a pulpit, erases the part where they had IVF and replace it with fasgin stories and so on. That's what they build their perception on and that is false. They come up to testify how they have not had a child for twenty years, how they prayed, they remove the part of help which is available (fertility drugs were most lily used in this case and hence four kids at once). Think outside your small circle when you type, it's a global world with global audiences and the need for a global solution to problems. When a real miracle occurs, we can talk. As I said, I've seen more miracles than all of nairaland combined (it's just my role in life).

You are just beating about the bush.

Bringing forth healthy babies into the world is a miracle enough. The fact that it was IVF is unnecessary and doesn't lessen the miracle. Those that need to know will know because it is not a secret.

You don't know what a miracle is young man or woman. It is an event that is exceptional to the status quo and one in which circumstances are changed beyond the results of a natural outcome which is common to all. In a miracle, a result is achieved by supernatural means which supercedes the outcome had it been done through natural means. Millions of animals across the world had babies yesterday on earth, that's a natural occurance. A miracle would be a child dying during the process, prayers offered and that child comes back to life. Using your own version of a miracle, you using the toilet is a miracle because a few have problems and need a fecal management tube. You're speaking to someone who has organized some of the biggest meetings on earth in Christendom.

Don't you dare cheapen a miracle.



The Bible didn't hide or erase sections of the testimonies that were attributed to the power of God. What do you mean by "those who need to know will know" What absolute lack of wisdom based on man's and God's standards.

ImaIma1:


You are just beating about the bush.

Bringing forth healthy babies into the world is a miracle enough. The fact that it was IVF is unnecessary and doesn't lessen the miracle. Those that need to know will know because it is not a secret.

salesman82:
You don't know what a miracle is young man or woman. It is an event that is exceptional to the status quo and one in which circumstances are changed beyond the results of a natural outcome which is common to all. In a miracle, a result is achieved by supernatural means which supercedes the outcome had it been done through natural means. Millions of animals across the world had babies yesterday on earth, that's a natural occurance. A miracle would be a child dying during the process, prayers offered and that child comes back to life. Using your own version of a miracle, you using the toilet is a miracle because a few have problems and need a fecal management tube. You're speaking to someone who has organized some of the biggest meetings on earth in Christendom.

Don't you dare cheapen a miracle.

Even if you have organized the biggest meetings of angels, it doesn't concern this conversation.

Miracle meaning:

*an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency. (Can you explain how a baby grows in the womb?)

*a remarkable event or development that brings very welcome consequences.

*an exceptional product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something.

Receive understanding!

Let's use the birth of snakes or a mouse having babies as your baseline for the description of a miracle. It's still the same process of the formation of a baby, just different animals as per say. In your own view, the formation of a baby in a hamsters belly is a miracle? The act of growing taller in humans which is a natural occurance is a miracle? You sincerely lack the foundational basis of an education and I'm not saying that to be insultive. It is because if people like you that Christianity in its beauty is mocked.

Knowing the level of meetings is very important. You go to certian countries and try and pull off this nonsense description of a miracle as one, you'll be arrested and stoned by the locals who are looking for any means possible to discredit the gospel


You forgot to add the term supernatural not natural or man enabled to your description of a miracle. IVF is not an extraordinary event +
(You just shot yourself in the foot)

ImaIma1:


Even if you have organized the biggest meetings of angels, it doesn't concern this conversation.

Miracle meaning:

*an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency. (Can you explain how a baby grows in the womb?)

*a remarkable event or development that brings very welcome consequences.

*an exceptional product or achievement, or an outstanding example of something.

Receive understanding!

NobleRace:
No wonder. That's why you misinterpret scriptures.

The context is about self control. Not about having actual sex.

Are you kidding me?

The entire passage is about marriage(and divorce). The question His disciple asked Him, that prompted the response from Jesus Christ was in regards marriage, yet you dishonestly chose to ignore all that so you can assert this lie of yours here, why?

10 The followers said to Jesus, “If that is the only reason a man can divorce his wife, it is better not to marry.”
11 He answered, “This statement is true for some, but not for everyone—only for those who have been given this gift.
12 There are different reasons why some men don’t marry. Some were born without the ability to produce children. Others were made that way later in life. And others have given up marriage because of God’s kingdom. This is for anyone who is able to accept it.” - Matthew 19 vs 11 - 12

What do you gain from this?

Kobojunkie:
Are you kidding me?

The entire passage is about marriage(and divorce). The question His disciple asked Him, that prompted the response from Jesus Christ was in regards marriage, yet you dishonestly chose to ignore all that so you can assert this lie of yours here, why?

What do you gain from this?

I will always say and stand on the truth. Now, let me dismantle your hypocrisy.

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

At the bolded. You mean Jesus was saying there are those who chose to have sex and not reproduce? I think it all boils down to good reasoning.

So, when someone refuses to marry. It means he chooses to have sex without marrying? Is that what your own Jesus is suggesting?

Can't you see? He who chooses not to marry definitely exercises self control. And that exactly was what Jesus was hinting at. Paul was an example of someone who made himself a Eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom.

rezy15:

Off point. This one no fail.

Why?

NobleRace:
I will always say and stand on the truth. Now, let me dismantle your hypocrisy.

"For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

At the bolded. You mean Jesus was saying there are those who chose to have sex and not reproduce? I think it all boils down to good reasoning.

So, when someone refuses to marry. It means he chooses to have sex without marrying? Is that what your own Jesus is suggesting?

Can't you see? He who chooses not to marry definitely exercises self control. And that exactly was what Jesus was hinting at. Paul was an example of someone who made himself a Eunuch for the sake of the Kingdom.

Again, Are you kidding me?

The entire passage of [b]Matthew 19 vs 1-13 is about marriage(and divorce). The question His disciple asked Him, that prompted the response from Jesus Christ was in regards marriage[/b], yet you dishonestly chose to ignore all that so you can assert this lie of yours here, why?

What do you gain from this?

salesman82:




Let's use the birth of snakes or a mouse having babies as your baseline for the description of a miracle. It's still the same process of the formation of a baby, just different animals as per say. In your own view, the formation of a baby in a hamsters belly is a miracle? The act of growing taller in humans which is a natural occurance is a miracle? You sincerely lack the foundational basis of an education and I'm not saying that to be insultive. It is because if people like you that Christianity in its beauty is mocked.

Knowing the level of meetings is very important. You go to certian countries and try and pull off this nonsense description of a miracle as one, you'll be arrested and stoned by the locals who are looking for any means possible to discredit the gospel


You forgot to add the term supernatural not natural or man enabled to your description of a miracle. IVF is not an extraordinary event +
(You just shot yourself in the foot)

No shooting of anyone in the foot sweety.

Life is a miracle in case you don't know. So IVF doesn't downplay it.

Kobojunkie:
Again, Are you kidding me?

The entire passage of [b]Matthew 19 vs 1-13 is about marriage(and divorce). The question His disciple asked Him, that prompted the response from Jesus Christ was in regards marriage[/b], yet you dishonestly chose to ignore all that so you can assert this lie of yours here, why?

What do you gain from this?

Answer the questions I asked you. You hypocrite!!

The disciples didn't ask Jesus any question. They made an assertion that '...if the case of a man with his wife is so, then it's better not to marry." Where's the question here, hypocrite?

Jesus immediately lectured them knowing that abstaining from marriage is good but requires a lot of self control. Hence, he made them know that ability to comply with such assertion varies. There are those who can naturally stay without marrying. There are those who have been castrated and therefore cannot marry. There are those who have made themselves perpetual singles for the sake of God's kingdom.

Only a fool would think Jesus is saying you'll be having sex without marrying for the sake of God's kingdom. Can't you see? Are you so unintelligent?

NobleRace:

Answer the questions I asked you. You hypocrite!!

The disciples didn't ask Jesus any question. They made an assertion that '...if the case of a man with his wife is so, then it's better not to marry." Where's the question here, hypocrite?

Jesus immediately lectured them knowing that abstaining from marriage is good but requires a lot of self control. Hence, he made them know that ability to comply with such assertion varies. There are those who can naturally stay without marrying. There are those who have been castrated and therefore cannot marry. There are those who have made themselves perpetual singles for the sake of God's kingdom.

Only a fool would think Jesus is saying you'll be having sex without marrying for the sake of God's kingdom. Can't you see? Are you so unintelligent?

Again....Again, Are you kidding me?

The entire passage of [b]Matthew 19 vs 1-13 is about marriage(and divorce). The question assertion made by His disciple, that prompted the response from Jesus Christ was in regards marriage[/b], yet you dishonestly chose to ignore all that so you can assert this lie of yours here, why?

What do you gain from this?

---

It had long been an established fact for the Jews that sex was only allowed for the married, this since the Old Covenant Law of Moses so, Jesus Christ had no need to discuss sex as a topic, hence the reason why the focus in that passage was on marriage and divorce in the context.

Kobojunkie:
Again....Again, Are you kidding me?

The entire passage of [b]Matthew 19 vs 1-13 is about marriage(and divorce). The question assertion made by His disciple, that prompted the response from Jesus Christ was in regards marriage[/b], yet you dishonestly chose to ignore all that so you can assert this lie of yours here, why?

What do you gain from this?

---

It had long been an established fact for the Jews that sex was only allowed for the married, this since the Old Covenant Law of Moses so, Jesus Christ had no need to discuss sex as a topic, hence the reason why the focus in that passage was on marriage and divorce in the context.

Get out of here. See how he's begining to change the narrative.

I was the one who have been saying that Jesus was hinting at marriage and not actual sex. You were the one insinuating sex without reproduction.

I even told you yesterday that Eunuchs don't have sex because their desire for sex is dead due to castration. And that's why Jesus used Eunuchs in His lecture.

I hate hypocrisy. Stop mentioning me!!

NobleRace:
Get out of here. See how he's begining to change the narrative.

I was the one who have been saying that Jesus was hinting at marriage and not actual sex. You were the one insinuating sex without reproduction.

I even told you yesterday that Eunuchs don't have sex because their desire for sex is dead due to castration. And that's why Jesus used Eunuchs in His lecture.

I hate hypocrisy. Stop mentioning me!!

What did I change of the narrative?

You attempted to make this about sex, asserting that Eunuchs do not have sex claiming their desire of sex is dead, to which I provided you with links insisting that is not at all the case - Eunuchs can and do have sex.

Where do you have me insinuating sex without reproduction here?

What Jesus Christ said in that passage is simple and straight forward and this in the context of marriage ' God created some Eunuchs from birth, God made others become Eunuchs in this life, and allowed some become Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God.

You brought the issue of sex into this...I didn't !

You equate being grateful for the good parts of life as a miracle. I'm grateful for life but that isn't a miracle on God's terms. Using the toilet is a miracle based on your standards which are so low to accommodate false narratives as true miraculous events.

ImaIma1:


No shooting of anyone in the foot sweety.

Life is a miracle in case you don't know. So IVF doesn't downplay it.

Kobojunkie:
What did I change of the narrative?

Bloody hypocrite!!

Go and read your posts from yesterday!

NobleRace:
Bloody hypocrite!!
Go and read your posts from yesterday!

Again...What did I change of the narrative?

You attempted to make this about sex, asserting that Eunuchs do not have sex claiming their desire of sex is dead, to which I provided you with links insisting that is not at all the case - Eunuchs can and do have sex.
Where do you have me insinuating sex without reproduction here?

What Jesus Christ said in that passage is simple and straight forward and this in the context of marriage ' God created some Eunuchs from birth, God made others become Eunuchs in this life, and allowed some become Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
You brought the issue of sex into this...I didn't !

Kobojunkie:
Again...What did I change of the narrative?

You attempted to make this about sex, asserting that Eunuchs do not have sex claiming their desire of sex is dead, to which I provided you with links insisting that is not at all the case - Eunuchs can and do have sex.
Where do you have me insinuating sex without reproduction here?

What Jesus Christ said in that passage is simple and straight forward and this in the context of marriage ' God created some Eunuchs from birth, God made others become Eunuchs in this life, and allowed some become Eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
You brought the issue of sex into this...I didn't !

Eunuchs don't have sex. A dictionary is enough to help your ignorance.

NobleRace:
Eunuchs don't have sex. A dictionary is enough to help your ignorance.

So, in your understanding those who become Eunuchs in this life, along with those who chose to be Eunuchs for the sake of God are people who never had sex at all or maybe suddenly loose the capability altogether?

I am seriously trying to understand why you chose to interpret what Jesus Christ as having the do with an ability to have sex or not when Jesus Christ obviously meant something more in relation to marriage(and divorce), this from the context.

---

You mention using the dictionary meaning of the word. In one of the Reddit link I included earlier, one of the posters explained that He was castrated but he was married and yes, had sex with his wife. Following dictionary meaning of the word, this castrated man is a Eunuch, however this Eunuch is able to and does have sex and is married.

Jeezuzpick:


Why?

Nigerians love to discuss wts not on the table. The issue isnt on side effects of IVF but on its efficacy. By the way don't make unsubstantiated claims abt IVF side effects. Its a safe procedure.

rezy15:

Nigerians love to discuss wts not on the table. The issue isnt on side effects of IVF but on its efficacy. By the way don't make unsubstantiated claims abt IVF side effects. Its a safe procedure.

The very bad experience of a person very dear to my heart calls bullshit to the bolded.

Jeezuzpick:


The very bad experience of a person very dear to my heart calls bullshit to the bolded.

That's your experience. A lot more will beg to differ. Childbirth is risky. Doesn't stop millions from giving it a go

Jeezuzpick:
The very bad experience of a person very dear to my heart calls bullshit to the bolded.

Can you please tell us of this very bad experience please?