sagenaija:
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Read again what Mohamed said in that hadith: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).
Notice what it DID NOT say:
It did not say: It set......
It did not say: We saw it set....
It did not say: I saw it set....
It clearly says: IT SETS in a spring.......
Do you get it?
Note again that this was an additional comment or information Mohamed was giving to a question he asked. Why did he ask the question? How come the person he asked didn't seem to have this 'common' knowledge you guys are making us to believe it is that he had to rely on Mohamed's 'wisdom' for an answer? How do you explain "It sets”?

The Hadith itself cannot be said to be authentic (inauthentic) because there are other hadiths reporting similar incidents and all contradicts this particular Hadith (without the statement it sets in spring of warm water).

“… the anomalous hadith is the one which a reliable transmitter relates and which is in conflict with what other people relate.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, Translated by Dr. Eerik Dickinson, Garnet Publishing Ltd. Berkshire 2006 p.57)

Also see the definition of defective (mu’allal) hadith given by Ibn Salah;

“A defective hadith is one in which a defect impugning its soundness is detected, although it outwardly appears to be free of the defect. That may apply to an isnad made up of reliable transmitters which outwardly seems to fulfill the conditions of soundness. Someone being alone in transmitting the hadith as well as others contradicting him aid in catching the defect.” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.67)

And when a report or a part of it becomes “shaadh” it ceases to be a sahih (sound) report. For this the definition of a “Sahih hadith” will help.


Hafiz Ibn Salah writes;

“The sahih (sound) hadith is a “supported” hadith (al-hadith al-musnad), the isnad of which coheres continuously through the transmission of one upright and accurate person from another up to its point of termination. The sound hadith can be neither anomalous (shaadh) nor defective (mu’allal),” (An Introduction to the Science of Hadith, p.5)

So merely being “sahih al-isnaad” is not enough for the report itself to be sahih.



In Sahih Bukhari it goes as;

Sufyan (al-Thawri)- Al-A’mash- Ibrahim (b. Yazid al-Taymi)- Yazid al-Taymi- Narrated Abu Dharr: The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Messenger know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun is quickly proceeding towards its destination. That is the designing of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing. " (36.38) (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 54, Hadith 421)

The significant difference is of the words “it sets in a spring of warm/murky water.”

TenQ:

How can it be figurative when
1. Allah spoke to Dhul-Qarnayn?
2. When there are an actual people living at the place the sun set?

Those who were asking Mohammed questions about Dhul-Qarnayn know him as a historical personality.


You've not answered how big you think the biggest largest Spring of water is on the earth?

Also could you not see the setting of the sun means evening i.e it was talking about time when the sun was setting.

Meaning by the time Zulqornain got to the spring of muddy water was at the evening time (sun set) and near it he saw some people.


Qur’an 18:86
“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found (wajada) it set in a spring of murky water: ....

sagenaija:
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Read again what Mohamed said in that hadith: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).
Notice what it DID NOT say:
It did not say: It set......
It did not say: We saw it set....
It did not say: I saw it set....
It clearly says: IT SETS in a spring.......
Do you get it?
Note again that this was an additional comment or information Mohamed was giving to a question he asked. Why did he ask the question? How come the person he asked didn't seem to have this 'common' knowledge you guys are making us to believe it is that he had to rely on Mohamed's 'wisdom' for an answer? How do you explain "It sets”?

Now that it is clear that other hadiths contradicts this particular and can't be graded as authentic.

So men of carnal mind like you might interprete it as you like to suit your evil agenda.


Also since there are different timezones used in the world some places are ahead of one another in time difference some 1hr, 2hr even days. Since the sun was still setting in muhammads location he could be telling his follower that the sun had already sets in spring of warm water (hamiliya) which is another location this could happen due to time difference.

I could be in Nigeria at sun set (evening) and tell someone close to me that the sun had rose (morning) in any country without being there not everyone know about specific time each country uses so muhammads follower might not have known and just relying on Muhammads knowledge most of us do this.


One thing you can't deny is that both muhammad and his followers beleived the Quran so he beleived the sun was in an orbit.

Again does the sun set or rise, what do people mean when they say sun set they are simply describing the sun based on their location on earth.

Which means the Hadith was describing the movement of the sun based on his location on earth (eye view)


Allah SWT said:

"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."
(QS. Yaseen 36: Verse 40)

sagenaija:
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You come to a PUBLIC FORUM to make comments and you become sensitive to other people's comments on your statements. Interesting!
If you really want to help, won't it be by presenting FACTS? If instead of that, what you do is attack the person, what does that make you?
You guys are actually the ones who, even in the face of FACTS, still want to believe what you want to believe. The truth remains, nonetheless.
Maybe you are frustrated that you are not able to DOMINATE others, but it's the other way around. Calm down. Examine the facts. Reach a logical (not an emotional) conclusion.

Facts like America is in Europe if not why are they part of nato ......
Trash like this, it's fact for people like you, but as I've said i don't have time for people that intentionally present what suits their view and if they don't get it they create.

haekymbahd:
1. Suratul Fatiha was acknowledged by Allah himself even in the Quran.

Allah SWT said:

"And We have certainly given you, [O Muhammad], seven of the often repeated [verses] and the great Qur'an."
(QS. Al-Hijr 15: Verse 87)

Unfortunately, there are other prayers in the Qur'an that were not attested by Allah (especially in Sura al-Baqara, ) so this is no valid point.

haekymbahd:

2. What do you mean by his name is not part of uthmanic codex, Abubakr was the one who compiled the Quran uthman only standardized it to one dialect. Various mushafs of the sahabas, and memorizers of the Quran where present during it's compilation so Quran was not just written down by an individual.


The 2 surahs were never part of the Quran compiled by Abubakr and never did ubay bin kab complained infact he was one of the transmitterers of the Quran and none of his student ever recited the 2 surahs (hafd and Kahl). The surahs were some qunut that was being recited after witri prayer.

The sahabas write in their mushafs commentaries and saying of the prophets, abrogated verses because their mushafs was their personal copy and they understood it. Ubays copy of the Quran was also collected for compilation of the Quran.

He agreed to the mushafs compiled and never was any complain from him that some surahs was not accepted from his mushafs. If it isn't part of the Quran it means it wasn't meant to be part of it.

Infact the chain of transmission of Hafs Quran also stems for Ubay bin kab which shows he was in agreement with the Muslims and his students never recited the 2 surahs as part of the Quran

Chain of Transmission
Imam Hafs ibn Suleiman ibn al-Mughirah al-Asadi al-Kufi learned from Aasim ibn Abi al-Najud al-Kufi al-Tabi'i from Abu 'Abd al-Rahman al-Sulami from Uthman ibn Affan, Ali, Ubayy ibn Ka'b, and Zaid ibn Thabit from the prophet Muhammad.

You don't understand!
It is attested for all Islamic sources that Ubayy was one of the few who put the Qur'anic Surahs into writing and had a Mushaf of his own. Following Muhammad's death, he was one of the twenty-five Hafiz, people who knew the Qur'an completely by heart.

Unfortunately, his Mushaf was not used by Uthman. Yet the Mushaf of Abu Bakr's FROM Hafsa was used. Neither Abu Bakr's not Hafsa were part of the people Allah attested to have memorised the whole Qur'an. Was it a political move by Uthman?
Isn't the attestation of Allah of more greater weight?

Was the Mushaf of Ubayy ibn Ka'b also burnt? Why wasn't it used as a standard.

Secondly,
The Qur'an was revealed in SEVEN different Ahruf. Who authorized Uthman to burn SIX of the revelation of Allah?

haekymbahd:

3. Which truth are you talking about cos all I see is falsehood from you

My statement was:
Will you agree with me that Muslims don't like the TRUTH whenever it conflicts with Islam?

A million denials cannot change the TRUTH!


Of course Muslims don't like to be shown the TRUTH.

You say that the Qur'an has been perfectly preserved word for word and mark for mark. We show you differences and instead of being humble to ask your Scholars questions, you begin temper tantrums.

Let me show you a few incase you think I am exaggerating.


There are at present more than 30 different Arabic versions of the Koran in circulation. The five main versions are.

1) Hafs, 95% General Muslim World.

2) Warsh 3% Algeria, Morocco

3) Qaloon .7% Libya
4) Dooree .3% Sudan +West Africa 5) Ibn Aamir 1% Yemen.

So are these versions identical or are there differences? If you ask “Islamic Scholars” they will tell you there is only one Koran. You judge yourself

compton11:
I know your problem,I will use something like that in Bible for u



English Standard Version

Are they not beyond the Jordan, west of the road, toward the going down of the sun, in the land of the Canaanites who live in the Arabah, opposite Gilgal, beside the oak of Moreh?


Deuteronomy 11:30

Now my question to u is

1. Is sun actually goes down?
2.do a place where sun goes down exist?

The going down of the sun is also referred to as the Sunset, also known as sundown, is the daily disappearance of the Sun below the horizon due to Earth's rotation.

It is impossible to misconstrue that the verse mean that the land was towards the west.

UNLIKE the beautiful Qur'an where Allah attests to the fact that the sun set IN the murky waters.


Have you read the Syrian version of Alexander the Great?
Too much similarity.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Alexander_Romance

TenQ:

The going down of the sun is also referred to as the Sunset, also known as sundown, is the daily disappearance of the Sun below the horizon due to Earth's rotation.

It is impossible to misconstrue that the verse mean that the land was towards the west.

UNLIKE the beautiful Qur'an where Allah attests to the fact that the sun set IN the murky waters.


Have you read the Syrian version of Alexander the Great?
Too much similarity.
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Alexander_Romance

where does it down too?

U haven't answered that

compton11:
nigga!.


Anybody can post or write anything and called it real just as u post one picture claiming it is Qur'an surah

Acknowledge the truth bro.

If www.sunnah.com says a hadith is sahih, who I'm I to dispute it?

TenQ:

Acknowledge the truth bro.

If www.sunnah.com says a hadith is sahih, who I'm I to dispute it?

Sahih?


but it contradicted the first two narrated by abu dhar.

haekymbahd:
Also could you not see the setting of the sun means evening i.e it was talking about time when the sun was setting.

Meaning by the time Zulqornain got to the spring of muddy water was at the evening time (sun set) and near it he saw some people.


Qur’an 18:86
“Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found (wajada) it set in a spring of murky water: ....

The sun set
A. IN a Spring of Murky Waters
B. BEHIND a Spring of Murky Waters
C. IN FRONT of a Spring of Murky Waters
D. BESIDE a Spring of Murky Waters

These four options mean different thing.

Do you think there is a serious coincidence between the Syrian narratives of the Two Horned One and the revelation in Qur'an 18.

I hope you will read it (if you aren't afraid of the truth)
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Alexander_Romance


I hope you can explain the coincidence to me!

compton11:
Sahih?


but it contradicted the first two narrated by abu dhar.

1. It agrees perfectly with the Qur'an.

2. Your Muslim scholars regard the hadith as Sahih

compton11:
where does it down too?

U haven't answered that

The Sun Rises in the East of Nigeria AND
The Sun Sets in the West of Nigeria

TenQ:

The Sun Rises in the East of Nigeria AND
The Sun Sets in the West of Nigeria

nigga I'm saying goes down not sets.

Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the campaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?”(KJV, Deuteronomy 11:30)


Bible mentioned the location,by the way!

TenQ:

1. It agrees perfectly with the Qur'an.

2. Your Muslim scholars regard the hadith as Sahih

just I can make an Hadith that agreed percent with Qur'an.


Where does sun goes down

compton11:
just I can make an Hadith that agreed percent with Qur'an.


Where does sun goes down

Sorry you can't make up a hadith, it's too late. Only those who heard your prophet say or do can transmit his words to become hadith

The sun sets in the West

compton11:
nigga I'm saying goes down not sets.

Are they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the campaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?”(KJV, Deuteronomy 11:30)


Bible mentioned the location,by the way!

The sun goes down in the west!

TenQ:

The sun goes down in the west!

which location in the west?
Stop lying here


Are they not beyond the Jordan, west of the road, toward the going down of the sun, in the land of the Canaanites who live in the Arabah, opposite Gilgal, beside the oak of Moreh?



This verse mentioned a location

Beyond Jordan
West of the road
Toward the going down if the sun



That toward makes us know it is one location they are talking about

TenQ:

Sorry you can't make up a hadith, it's too late. Only those who heard your prophet say or do can transmit his words to become hadith

The sun sets in the West

look at u

Many Hadith were made up

compton11:
which location in the west?
Stop lying here


Are they not beyond the Jordan, west of the road, toward the going down of the sun, in the land of the Canaanites who live in the Arabah, opposite Gilgal, beside the oak of Moreh?



This verse mentioned a location

Beyond Jordan
West of the road
Toward the going down if the sun



That toward makes us know it is one location they are talking about

If you don't understand English language, too bad!
Only a dumb person cannot understand what was written!

compton11:
look at u

Many Hadith were made up

Whose fault?
Christians!?

Only a lying religion fabricated so much lies as you have admitted!
Islam is truly a religion of liars!

TenQ:
Why is Surah 115 and Surah 116 not in the Hafs Quran commonly used in Nigeria?


Muslims would want everybody to believe that there is only one Arabic Quran. Unfortunately, the standard Islamic Narrations has been found to be complete lies to deceive both Muslims and non-Muslims.

When you show them that there are two MAJOR Arabic Qurans in existence "the Hafs Quran" and the "Warsh Quran", they say that the difference is just in pronunciation ANOTHER LIE!

Today, I want to bring to you the fact that Muslims do not want you to know that some Arabic Qurans Have Surah 115 and Surah 116 (Surat al-Khal and Surat al-Hafd)

To avoid any controversy, Ill post these two surahs here for all to see.


Attachment 1: Surat al-khal
Attachment 2: Surat al-Hafd

AntiChristian:
compton11:
haekymbahd:
mhmsadyq:

1. If the Quran is perfectly preserved even to diacritical marks (unlike the bible with KJV, NIV, NWT etc), why is the Quran from Uthman different from that from Ubayy bin Kab?
2. Which of these two qurans is the exact words of Allah?


How many other lies is the islamic narrative hiding?

How come u know much abt the Koran? Are u a Muslim?

Truvelisback:
How come u know much abt the Koran? Are u a Muslim?

I am NOT a Muslim, I am one of those saved by Grace through the atonement of the blood shed by Christ.

Although, I almost recited the shahada to became a Muslim in my 200L at the University. The conversion was due to the fact that some of my room mates were Muslims AND through my curiosity, I began to read the publications of Ahmed Deedat (a South African pioneer of Islamic Apologetics) who tore my Christian faith to sheds mainly about Trinity and the Bible.

By the time I was through reading a couple of his publications, my mind was made up to recite the Shahada. I counted the cost as I know that my parents would be hurt if I converted to Islam BUT they wouldn't stop paying my school fees.

However before taking the final plunge, I decided to read through the Qur'an (I got myself an English translation) starting from Al-Fathia (Surah1) and I began to read down to the end.

The first thing I noticed was a lack of historical order in the Qur'an unlike the bible. Although, this didn't disturb me one bit. I started getting worried when I began to see incomplete stories of people in the bible and some serious mess-up with them. Example Surat Yusuf which didn't flow logically. But also among others was the mix-up of Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Aaron in the bible. It was also difficult to just believe that Jesus wasn't crucified (contrary to historical facts even by non-Christian historians).

I could understand if the Qur'an contradicted the New Testament BUT I couldn't understand how the Qur'an will at the same time contradict the Old Testament. We had a complete library of the Hadiths at the state library (which I frequented). Many of those hadiths were hilarious and unbelievable to say the least (as of that time, I didn't even know the difference between Authentic and not so Authentic hadiths).

I therefore decided to slow down my conversion to Islam and go back to the fundamentals. This means questioning both the Bible and the Qur'an and the doctrines taught. They must logically flow with comprehension.

I rededicated my life to Christ still in my 200L at the University. Since then, I have seen through the deliberate lies of Islam. I also understand the spiritual bondage Islam put Muslims. It takes God's grace to be free from its shackles. I still learn everyday and the INTERNET has made things far much easier.

Since Muslims can legally use Taqqiyya, don't take their words as full facts untill you have verified by yourself. Their Scholars deceive both Muslims and non-muslims alike. When a Muslim says an Arabic word mean something, check it up, many times, before its just another lie.

So, I almost became a Muslim BUT the Qur'an led me back to Christ.


It's only a TRAP that you enter willingly but you can't go out willingly. The Sharia for apostasy in Islam is DEATH!

TenQ:

I am NOT a Muslim, I am one of those saved by Grace through the atonement of the blood shed by Christ.

Although, I almost recited the shahada to became a Muslim in my 200L at the University. The conversion was due to the fact that some of my room mates were Muslims AND through my curiosity, I began to read the publications of Ahmed Deedat (a South African pioneer of Islamic Apologetics) who tore my Christian faith to sheds mainly about Trinity and the Bible.

By the time I was through reading a couple of his publications, my mind was made up to recite the Shahada. I counted the cost as I know that my parents would be hurt if I converted to Islam BUT they wouldn't stop paying my school fees.

However before taking the final plunge, I decided to read through the Qur'an (I got myself an English translation) starting from Al-Fathia (Surah1) and I began to read down to the end.

The first thing I noticed was a lack of historical order in the Qur'an unlike the bible. Although, this didn't disturb me one bit. I started getting worried when I began to see incomplete stories of people in the bible and some serious mess-up with them. Example Surat Yusuf which didn't flow logically. But also among others was the mix-up of Mary mother of Jesus with Miriam the sister of Aaron in the bible. It was also difficult to just believe that Jesus wasn't crucified (contrary to historical facts even by non-Christian historians).

I could understand if the Qur'an contradicted the New Testament BUT I couldn't understand how the Qur'an will at the same time contradict the Old Testament. We had a complete library of the Hadiths at the state library (which I frequented). Many of those hadiths were hilarious and unbelievable to say the least (as of that time, I didn't even know the difference between Authentic and not so Authentic hadiths).

I therefore decided to slow down my conversion to Islam and go back to the fundamentals. This means questioning both the Bible and the Qur'an and the doctrines taught. They must logically flow with comprehension.

I rededicated my life to Christ still in my 200L at the University. Since then, I have seen through the deliberate lies of Islam. I also understand the spiritual bondage Islam put Muslims. It takes God's grace to be free from its shackles. I still learn everyday and the INTERNET has made things far much easier.

Since Muslims can legally use Taqqiyya, don't take their words as full facts untill you have verified by yourself. Their Scholars deceive both Muslims and non-muslims alike. When a Muslim says an Arabic word mean something, check it up, many times, before its just another lie.

So, I almost became a Muslim BUT the Qur'an led me back to Christ.


It's only a TRAP that you enter willingly but you can't go out willingly. The Sharia for apostasy in Islam is DEATH!

Nice one.

2dominate:

Facts like America is in Europe if not why are they part of nato ......
Trash like this, it's fact for people like you, but as I've said i don't have time for people that intentionally present what suits their view and if they don't get it they create.

FACTS about the topic at hand, man!
Oh, how cramming the Koran twist brains.

haekymbahd:
Now that it is clear that other hadiths contradicts this particular and can't be graded as authentic.

So men of carnal mind like you might interprete it as you like to suit your evil agenda.

Also since there are different timezones used in the world some places are ahead of one another in time difference some 1hr, 2hr even days. Since the sun was still setting in muhammads location he could be telling his follower that the sun had already sets in spring of warm water (hamiliya) which is another location this could happen due to time difference.

I could be in Nigeria at sun set (evening) and tell someone close to me that the sun had rose (morning) in any country without being there not everyone know about specific time each country uses so muhammads follower might not have known and just relying on Muhammads knowledge most of us do this.


One thing you can't deny is that both muhammad and his followers beleived the Quran so he beleived the sun was in an orbit.

Again does the sun set or rise, what do people mean when they say sun set they are simply describing the sun based on their location on earth.

Which means the Hadith was describing the movement of the sun based on his location on earth (eye view)

Allah SWT said:

"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming."
(QS. Yaseen 36: Verse 40)

You can see from your post the quagmire of Islam. Nothing is straightforward. Nothing is clear.
This again confirms what I always say - ISLAM SPEAKS FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE MOUTH. There is no issue in Islam that you wouldn't find an opposite or contradictory position, making it easy for any Moslem to choose which or what to believe.

A hadith is classified as sahih. Obviously, some Islamic scholar or scholars did that. Some other ones come up with some new rules and decide that the classification by the first group is not "authentic" enough.
Now, when you have multiple rules what happens is that it gives room for any kind of interpretation and application. This is Islam. It claims to be a CLEAR guidance to mankind yet it is nothing but clear.

With TALES FROM ARABIA like this Zul-Qarnain story ask yourself the question, "What guidance is in this story for me?"

Recall that Al-Bukhari had to disregard over 98% of the hadiths he went through. Even the ones he eventually compiled have almost half of it duplicated.

It is all these issues that make some of you run to become ”koran only” Moslems. Even then the issues are not resolved. The Koran says "he found it set in a spring of murky water...." Notice again the following:
1. He found it. It did not say 'he saw it' which could be interpreted by you guys as his personal view. What is 'found'?
2. It set in a. What is 'it set in a?
So, you can see that there is really no way to get around the fact that something is not quite right here.
3. The sun rises and sets every day. Why did the Koran present this story as if there is something special in 'discovering' where the sun sets? It was a 'mystery' that the writer of the Koran thought he wanted to reveal the answer to the 7th century Arabians. Unfortunately, that betrayed his ignorance. Despite that 21st century Moslems are still looking for how to justify the justifiable.

TenQ:

If you don't understand English language, too bad!
Only a dumb person cannot understand what was written!

toward mean what?

TenQ:

Whose fault?
Christians!?

Only a lying religion fabricated so much lies as you have admitted!
Islam is truly a religion of liars!

hmmm that means Christianity is lying ass religion then.

Cos many sh.it were fabricated

Especially concerning judasi death

compton11:
hmmm that means Christianity is lying ass religion then.

Cos many sh.it were fabricated

Especially concerning judasi death

There are over 5200 hadiths without repetition and almost half of them are lies! Almost 3000 lies!?

Allah himself is the greatest deceiver, so what do we expect!!
Till tomorrow, Muslims are in dispute of what happened to Jesus

compton11:
toward mean what?

? ? ?

TenQ:

? ? ?

the toward has to be a place where sun goes down.

So how do sun goes down there?

TenQ:

There are over 5200 hadiths without repetition and almost half of them are lies! Almost 3000 lies!?

Hadith in this world are more than that.

Some are fake, fabricated, unreliable.

TenQ:


Allah himself is the greatest deceiver, so what do we expect!!

deceit sounds like Yahweh handiwork.

TenQ:

Till tomorrow, Muslims are in dispute of what happened to Jesus

how come are they disputing,all Muslims believe he didn't die.

But that ain't the case,I asked how judasi died according to Bible.

compton11:
Hadith in this world are more than that.

Some are fake, fabricated, unreliable.

deceit sounds like Yahweh handiwork.


how come are they disputing,all Muslims believe he didn't die.

But that ain't the case,I asked how judasi died according to Bible.

We are saying the same thing. Almost HALF your hadiths are fabricated. 2000 lies is not a joke.

If Muslims are asked what happened to Jesus, you'll hear as many excuses as they are.

They are in dispute about what happened to Jesus as they can't explain it. Some say it was Judas that was crucified, others say one random man was crucified, the rest are confused according to Allah desire.