Wilgrea7:

Thank you

You're welcome Sir!

Science is Science because it’s been questioned.
There’s no doctrine in science, it relies on knowledge.

elated177:


The supernatural, I believe, is not just something that can't be explained by your current knowledge of the physical universe, but also what you will never be able to replicate or accomplish using any knowledge of the physical universe.

What makes you assumes so? Sure, our current knowledge of the physical universe is limited. But it's also not static. We know way more today than we did a few hundred years ago. Who is to say our knowledge won't grow to higher heights?

So, whatever falls into the category of the supernatural must be something that requires some kind of supernatural power or force. Don't you think so? For instance, physics, in its own way, has been able to state how thunder and lightning likely occur, but cannot make them roar and blaze in the sky. Or am I not correct?

Actually, we've been able to artificially replicate lightning. : D . But that aside, The whole concept of supernatural force, to me is simply a force we don't quite understand based on our current knowledge. Like I said earlier, that isn't to say that our knowledge can't possibly grow to understand it.

In the scenario that you created above, why wouldn't you believe such a supernatural being if no other supernatural being has ever accomplished, or will ever accomplish, such a feat? If no other supernatural being even has the ability to accomplish such a feat, why won't you believe?

Ability to accomplish feats like that has no correlation to sincerity. Sure, if a being like that did something as impressive as that, It would only serve as proof of a being beyond my current visual perception, who has a better understanding of our natural world, and can hence use that to its advantage. Nothing more.

About the supernatural being lying. Before you can even accuse such being of lying, you must have a previous experience of such feat, especially from or with another supernatural being. Don't you agree? If not, with what are you going to use as a template for the comparison and the subsequent conclusion?

Exactly. Since I don't have any "template" or any sort of proof or objective information on the being, there's no way to know if it were lying or telling the truth. I'm not necessarily accusing it of lying. I'm just saying that lie and truth are 2 possibilities, and I have no reason to say it can't be one or the other. I won't just accept its claims without criticisms and questioning.

What rule is there that says a supernatural event or encounter is not needed as proof of any god?

I actually forgot to mention you on the thread where i addressed this. So if you mean God, as in a supreme creator deity, then no. A supernatural experience doesn't exactly serve as proof. If it's another sort of being, which exists in reality, but among our current 5 senses, then sure.

What you said above is a bit tricky. One must tackle it with utmost care.

My question now is: "has there ever been a scenario where anyone used jazz or voodoo or whatever to turn a dog into chicken?

I just gave the example. I have no idea if it has been done before, or if it is even possible to do. I'm not saying it's not possible or that it is. I'm saying I don't know.

To turn a dog into chicken means that such power can also create a dog and a chicken. Don't you think so?

No. Not necessarily. Creation and transformation are 2 different things. And also, our knowledge on the parameters that could possibly influence things like this are severely limited. So I can't give any assurances as to what is possible or what isn't.

Any power that has the ability to accomplish such a feat should be able to do more. It means, therefore, that if such power can literally turn a man into a horse or horse into a man, such power can also create man as well as a horse. What do you think?

No. Not necessarily. The ability to do one feat doesn't necessarily mean I can do another. For example, I can run 5 kilometers. Doesn't necessarily mean I can run faster than usain bolt, like let's say 100m in 5 seconds or so. Both activities have to do with running.

You can have the ability to do something. doesn't necessarily mean you have the ability to do another thing. Except of course, the second thing is a subset, or lower than the first thing. I can run 2km, because it is a subset of 5 kilometres.

Don't get me wrong. It MAY be possible for a being to be able to do both things of course. Usain bolt can run both 100m in 6 seconds and 5 kilometers. But assuming a being can do activity B simply because it did activity A is a wrong assumption.

Supernatural occurrences and experiences are proofs that supernatural powers and beings exist.

Not necessarily.

The supernatural events, occurrences and experiences can't be separated from how the Creator works. Is it even possible?

Yes, of course. Argument for a creator, and argument for things beyond our current limited understanding are 2 different things.

If a supernatural Being told you that he made the universe and everything in it - humans, plants, animals, the sun, the moon, the stars, thunder and lightning, the rain, the wind, the seas, etc, and he said he could prove it by exerting some influence on the sun and he did, would you believe in him?

Not really. That's like me walking up to you, telling you I made a airplane, and proving it to you by turning it on, or flying it. Influence on something doesn't necessarily denote creation. We can influence a lot of things on earth. We can shred trees and turn them to paper. Something that could never have occurred under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean we created trees. Hope you understand my point

Wilgrea7:


Not really. That's like me walking up to you, telling you I made a airplane, and proving it to you by turning it on, or flying it. Influence on something doesn't necessarily denote creation. We can influence a lot of things on earth. We can shred trees and turn them to paper. Something that could never have occurred under normal circumstances. That doesn't mean we created trees. Hope you understand my point

Your assertions above sum up all that you are about. Just like workch, you are not looking for any evidence or proof. It is meaningless discussing with you any further. You, just like the others before you, have been put in your place. It is not ignorance but deliberate wickedness. You know what you are aiming at. However, it a chasing after the wind. There are many of you here and out there. My Scriptures didn't mince words in warning the saints, servants and messengers of Yahushua the Messiah about people like you.

Listen:

Matthew 7: 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.


Anyone who says exercising any kind of influence on those things that I mentioned is ordinary, let the person do it.


To the forces of wickedness, this agent of yours, wilgrea7, has been put in his place, just like the others before him. Till the next one.


El Elohe Yahshrael!

elated177:



Your assertions above sum up all that you are about. Just like workch, you are not looking for any evidence or proof. It is meaningless discussing with you any further. You, just like the others before you, have been put in your place. It is not ignorance but deliberate wickedness. You know what you are aiming at. However, it a chasing after the wind. There are many of you here and out there. My Scriptures didn't mince words in warning the saints, servants and messengers of Yahushua the Messiah about people like you.

Listen:

Matthew 7: 6 “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.


Anyone who says exercising any kind of influence on those things that I mentioned is ordinary, let the person do it.


To the forces of wickedness, this agent of yours, wilgrea7, has been put in his place, just like the others before him. Till the next one.


El Elohe Yahshrael!

I thought we were actually going to have a productive discussion.. but then you just went ahead to call me an agent of wickedness lol.

Have a great day man

Wilgrea7:


I thought we were actually going to have a productive discussion.. but then you just went ahead to call me an agent of wickedness lol.

Have a great day man

What kind of productive discussion? Nothing productive will ever come out from any discussion with you. Your assertions so far have made that explicitly clear. It will be a sheer waste of time and energy trying to reason with you along the premise you have set for yourself.

You, wilgrea7, are an agent of wickedness. Your assertions here have shown that you are an agent of wickedness. Didn't you know this?

Wilgrea7:
Happy Sunday wonderful people.

When it comes to religion, especially in Nigeria, questioning your specific religion or beliefs is something that's usually frowned upon. In any civilized society, it definitely shouldn't be the case.

I'm not here to try and sway anyone away from what they believe in. I just want people who have questions to know its okay to have those questions. And if they're willing to seek answers objectively, its possible to do so too.

I'll also be creating some more topics on the different aspects of religion, and belief in God/gods in general, as time goes on.

My goal is to have honest, open-minded discussions on topics like this. Stay tuned for more. Peace

Questioning of beliefs happens all the time among religious people no matter where they are found.

The reason it may appear Nigerians don't question their beliefs is because of the large number of religious people in the country which keeps increasing everyday.

But the reason for this, is mostly situational; poverty and low quality education among others

Religious leaders are mostly the ones that discourage their congregation from questioning their beliefs for the obvious reason of what it would lead to.

At the individual level, beliefs are questioned all the time, but not having the courage to express it openly.

Beliefs and doubts exist side by side. You can't belief in something without you having the occasion to question it from time time. It is not possible.

elated177:



What kind of productive discussion? Nothing productive will ever come out from any discussion with you. Your assertions so far have made that explicitly clear. It will be a sheer waste of time and energy trying to reason with you along the premise you have set for yourself.

You, wilgrea7, are an agent of wickedness. Your assertions here have shown that you are an agent of wickedness. Didn't you know this?

Thank you.. if you do not wish to engage, you are free to move along

Wilgrea7:


Thank you.. if you do not wish to engage, you are free to move along

He still hasn't understood. It is meaningless engaging you in any further discussion. It is simple to understand. You can't be reasoned with.


Wilgrea7, hear what I have said to your colleagues many times before: I am evidence and proof of the existence of YHVH Almighty, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them, the one and only true God. I am his masterpiece. No better proof or evidence exists anywhere, any place in this world right now. Wilgrea7, you are never going to get any better proof or evidence than me, Elated177.

El Elohe Yahshrael! Hallelu YAH!

elated177:


He still hasn't understood. It is meaningless engaging you in any further discussion. It is simple to understand. You can't be reasoned with.


Wilgrea7, hear what I have said to your colleagues many times before: I am evidence and proof of the existence of YHVH Almighty, the Creator of the heavens, the earth, the seas and everything in them, the one and only true God. I am his masterpiece. No better proof or evidence exists anywhere, any place in this world right now. Wilgrea7, you are never going to get any better proof or evidence than me, Elated177.

El Elohe Yahshrael! Hallelu YAH!

Dude. Seriously. This constant back and forth is unnecessary. I understand you don't want to have a debate or discussion. I am fine with that. You don't need to keep mentioning me to remind me.

If you change your mind, you know my username. Other than that, I wish you a wonderful evening. Bye

triplechoice:


Questioning of beliefs happens all the time among religious people no matter where they are found.

The reason it may appear Nigerians don't question their beliefs is because of the large number of religious people in the country which keeps increasing everyday.

But the reason for this, is mostly situational; poverty and low quality education among others

Religious leaders are mostly the ones that discourage their congregation from questioning their beliefs for the obvious reason of what it would lead to.

At the individual level, beliefs are questioned all the time, but not having the courage to express it openly.

Beliefs and doubts exist side by side. You can't belief in something without you having the occasion to question it from time time. It is not possible.

You're certainly right in regards to the relation between religious fundamentalism and education. When I was a christian, and would ask questions, some responses I got from people then included

1) "How dare you question the almighty creator?" (even though I was simply questioning the concept of the creator they believed in) This was often followed by subtle threats of punishment by said God.

2) "Trying to understand God is like trying to count the sand in the beach. So don't try" (A really faulty comparison of situations).

3) "Questioning God is a seed sown by satan to lure away the believers and condemn them to hell" (like seriously)

And a couple others I can't remember right now.

One of the reasons I created the thread, was to make others who may be going through the same period of questioning that I did, to know that it is completely normal, and not a bad thing as people try to paint it out to be. And if at all, that they can always express themselves as well as ask their questions here, observe the discussions and judge for themselves.

Wilgrea7:


I never claimed to be an atheist. But yes, I also question whatever beliefs I may have

So what do you believe?

Hismasterpiece:


So what do you believe?

I don't know.. it's hard to say. I'm just searching for truth. I wouldn't say i believe in anything at this point

Wilgrea7:


I don't know.. it's hard to say. I'm just searching for truth. I wouldn't say i believe in anything at this point

Why don't you?

Hismasterpiece:


Why don't you?

I haven't found a lot of convincing evidence

Wilgrea7:


I haven't found a lot of convincing evidence

Why isn't the available evidence convincing to you and what would you consider to be convincing evidence?

Hismasterpiece:


Why isn't the available evidence convincing to you and what would you consider to be convincing evidence?

When it comes to a belief in a god, i think most unbelievers like myself would be honest enough to say they don't know what would count as “convincing evidence".

This isn't because we're dishonest or simply don't want to believe. It's because the concept of a god, or what a god is supposed to be, is not well defined. At least to us.

So it's hard to say you've received convincing evidence for something when you don't even know what the something is supposed to be.

In regards to the current available evidence, It doesn't seem to count as proof of the type of god theists define. They often make big jumps in logic, in order to arrive at their conclusions, rather than proof

Wilgrea7:


I thought we were actually going to have a productive discussion.. but then you just went ahead to call me an agent of wickedness lol.

Have a great day man

When a mam stubs his toe on a rock he angrily curses the rock but not himself for failing to see the rock. LoLz. When people like the person you responded to come up against a wall their ignorance can't get over they curse the wall instead of educating their ignorance. Bwahahahahaha!

Hismasterpiece:


Why isn't the available evidence convincing to you and what would you consider to be convincing evidence?

Evidence that points directly to the conclusion, do not pass go, do not collect 200.

LordReed:


Evidence that points directly to the conclusion, do not pass go, do not collect 200.

Mr Reed... its been a while... kindly check out this site: apologeticspress.org

Wilgrea7:



When it comes to a belief in a god, i think most unbelievers like myself would be honest enough to say they don't know what would count as “convincing evidence".

This isn't because we're dishonest or simply don't want to believe. It's because the concept of a god, or what a god is supposed to be, is not well defined. At least to us.

So it's hard to say you've received convincing evidence for something when you don't even know what the something is supposed to be.

In regards to the current available evidence, It doesn't seem to count as proof of the type of god theists define. They often make big jumps in logic, in order to arrive at their conclusions, rather than proof

What do you mean by the bolded?

Hismasterpiece:


Mr Reed... its been a while... kindly check out this site: apologeticspress.org

LoLz why are you pointing me to an apologetics site?

LordReed:


LoLz why are you pointing me to an apologetics site?

No be you dey ask for evidence?

Hismasterpiece:


No be you dey ask for evidence?

Apologetics is not evidence.

Hismasterpiece:


What do you mean by the bolded?

Often times in discussions, when we ask for certain proofs, for example, proof of the existence of their specific god, they often point to things like the nature of the universe.

While the existence of the universe and everything in it can indicate the existence of a creator/creators, that's about as far as it goes.

Claims that the creator is a single entity, or that it has certain characteristics, or wants to do certain things, is often based on beliefs that lack evidence to back them up.

For example, nothing I've seen so far, stops the universe from having multiple Creators, or a female one.. or one that simply doesn't care for us.. or one that's evil.. or one that just wants to sit back and watch us without interfering.. or one that's way beyond what we could ever come close to perceiving.

In my opinion.. most religious stories that try to convey a concept of god, seem to do so based on what they think a god should be like, rather than what actually is.. because if we're being honest.. we know very, very little, about what actually is

LordReed:


Apologetics is not evidence.

So what constitutes evidence? Oh.. I forgot.. You are waiting for Jesus to speak to you audibly when you yourself haven't been speaking to Him and seeking Him for yourself.

Wilgrea7:


Often times in discussions, when we ask for certain proofs, for example, proof of the existence of their specific god, they often point to things like the nature of the universe.

While the existence of the universe and everything in it can indicate the existence of a creator/creators, that's about as far as it goes.

Claims that the creator is a single entity, or that it has certain characteristics, or wants to do certain things, is often based on beliefs that lack evidence to back them up.

For example, nothing I've seen so far, stops the universe from having multiple Creators, or a female one.. or one that simply doesn't care for us.. or one that's evil.. or one that just wants to sit back and watch us without interfering.. or one that's way beyond what we could ever come close to perceiving.

In my opinion.. most religious stories that try to convey a concept of god, seem to do so based on what they think a god should be like, rather than what actually is.. because if we're being honest.. we know very, very little, about what actually is

The bible doesn't in anyway indicate that it is a book written by people speculating about God.

Indeed the Bible claims supernatural inspiration from God Himself.

Hismasterpiece:


So what constitutes evidence? Oh.. I forgot.. You are waiting for Jesus to speak to you audibly when you yourself haven't been speaking to Him and seeking Him for yourself.

So I need to speak into thin air first?

LordReed:


So I need to speak into thin air first?

Says the guy to waiting to first be spoken to out of thin air.

Of course it's OK to question your beliefs but it is stupidity quoting it for atheism because atheism is another system of BELIEF on its own though based on UNCERTAINTY just like the one you're questioning!

Hismasterpiece:


Says the guy to waiting to first be spoken to out of thin air.

LoLz! Where did I say that?

Wilgrea7:
Happy Sunday wonderful people.

When it comes to religion, especially in Nigeria, questioning your specific religion or beliefs is something that's usually frowned upon. In any civilized society, it definitely shouldn't be the case.

I'm not here to try and sway anyone away from what they believe in. I just want people who have questions to know its okay to have those questions. And if they're willing to seek answers objectively, its possible to do so too.

I'll also be creating some more topics on the different aspects of religion, and belief in God/gods in general, as time goes on.

My goal is to have honest, open-minded discussions on topics like this. Stay tuned for more. Peace

This entire earth is the property of the absolute God since it is created by Him. No human being created any region of this earth and therefore the absolute right of this entire earth belongs to the absolute God only. It is the climax of foolishness of human beings to fight and kill each other for the sake of the borders of divisions of countries and for the ownership of any region on this earth.

The representatives of all the countries on this earth should unite and form a Central Government to control the terrorism in any country. It should be responsible for the peace of the entire world. If the peace is achieved in entire world in this way, it is a real achievement of the success of this holy Christmas.

We should not provoke quarrels among the followers of religions by finding faults with other people’s religions. Faults are present in all the religions in one form or another. Such fanatic behavior must be avoided to bring peace to this world. An atom of goodness in us appears to us as a mountain while the mountain of badness in us appears to us as an atom! In the case of others, we reverse the policy: an atom of badness in others appears to us as a mountain and the mountain of goodness in others appears to us as an atom! Such biased behavior results in quarrels among religions. Actually, we must look at things in exactly the opposite manner. We must see an atom of badness in us as a mountain and a mountain of goodness in us as an atom.

Similarly, we must see an atom of goodness in others as a mountain and a mountain of badness in others as an atom. By looking at things in this manner, we can avoid quarrels, not only with other religions but also with all our fellow-human beings. Such behavior is the basis of bringing peace in our family, in our city, in our state, in our country and finally in this entire world. If there is any human being who is trying hard to bring peace in this world, God likes that person to the greatest extent because God wants this world, created and maintained by Him, to run peacefully. Anybody violating this main aim of God becomes the object of His terrible anger.



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