Steep:
Answer my question first?

Answer my question first too.

Is it right to do jungle justice to a murderer?

According to Steep, killing babies itself is not wrong, it’s wrong because you didn’t create them.

Maynmann:

Conscience that lacks what good and evil means, if your god said rape was good your conscience would have said it is good.

Exactly what jungle justice mean.
Is it right to do jungle justice to a murderer?

conscience alone dmis not sufficient hence God gave the commandments. However without God conscience would be meaningless.
God cannot command rape because he is a good God.

Steep:
conscience alone dmis not sufficient hence God gave the commandments. However without God conscience would be meaningless.
God cannot command rape because he is a good God.

What conscience?
You said killing babies is not wrong because you didn’t create them, so is the conscience about the killing of babies or because you did not create them.

Yahweh commanded rape and genocide, according to you if yahweh says rape is good it is good.

Maynmann:


Answer my question first too.

Is it right to do jungle justice to a murderer?

According to Steep, killing babies itself is not wrong, it’s wrong because you didn’t create them.

jungle justice is wrong because you might kill and innocent person.

Killing babies is wrong because you didn't create them, remember in my world view God determines what is right and wrong, UT is not me or you or anybody just God
And God has said Noone has right to murder anyone including babies but God has tight to kill anyone including babies.
And because God is love his actions are loving and just.

Maynmann:

What conscience?
You said killing babies is not wrong because you didn’t create them, so is the conscience about the killing of babies or because you did not create them.

Yahweh commanded rape and genocide, according to you if yahweh says rape is good it is good.

Where did yahweh command rape?
Since all souks belong to God he has a right to the any soul he pleases.
What is genocide?

Steep:
jungle justice is wrong because you might kill and innocent person.

Killing babies is wrong because you didn't create them, remember in my world view God determines what is right and wrong, UT is not me or you or anybody just God
And God has said Noone has right to murder anyone including babies but God has tight to kill anyone including babies.
And because God is love his actions are loving and just.

No, we are talking about a Murderer not “innocent person”
Judges send innocent people to jail and death sentences everytime.

Is it right to do jungle justice to MURDERER?

Exactly, according to steep, killing babies is not wrong ITSELF, it is only wrong because you didn’t create them.

Since your god determines what is right and wrong, how can we call that deity a good god?
Since his standard for good and bad is always changing. He can kill babies and thats right abi

Steep:

Where did yahweh command rape?
Since all souks belong to God he has a right to the any soul he pleases.
What is genocide?

So a soul saying it has freewill is only deceiving him self, your deity has the right to do the soul as he pleases.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to [Yahweh] in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck [Yahweh]'s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

— Numbers 31:13–18

Maynmann:

If my son is in trouble, and I’m a loving father i will help my son first before giving him conditions.

Your god didn’t create evil, your god is not the Creator of all things.

Yes, it depends on the gravity of the child's offence and the type of help he needs. A loving father is more concerned about the aftermath of his help. Why do you think father's spank their children? Out of hatred? He wants him to change. If you are very much passionate about him turning a new leaf, you must make decisions only a father can make. It all depends on your priority as a father. Whether to give him temporary respite I his sorrowful state and allow him to back to his ways. (That's not love) or to give all round help that assists his current situation as well as his entire life.

My God is not the doer of all things in the universe. Humans do both good and bad things. Satan does only evil things. Demons do evil things. They're all doers. God created humans, Satan and demons who do the good and bad things. God is the Creator of all things.

FxMasterz:


Yes, it depends on the gravity of the child's offence and the type of help he needs. A loving father is more concerned about the aftermath of his help. Why do you think father's spank their children? Out of hatred? He wants him to change. If you are very much passionate about him turning a new leaf, you must make decisions only a father can make. It all depends on your priority as a father. Whether to give him temporary respite I his sorrowful state and allow him to back to his ways. (That's not love) or to give all round help that assists his current situation as well as his entire life.

My God is not the doer of all things in the universe. Humans do both good and bad things. Satan does only evil things. Demons do evil things. They're all doers. God created humans, Satan and demons who do the good and bad things. God is the Creator of all things.

If my son is in trouble, and I’m a loving father i will help my son first before giving him conditions.
Spanking your child won’t make him change.


Your god didn’t create everything, he didn’t create evil, the devil must have created it, so he doesn’t have dominion over everything and is not the most powerful.

Isiah 45:7– I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Maynmann:

So a soul saying it has freewill is only deceiving him self, your deity has the right to do the soul as he pleases.

Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle. "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to [Yahweh] in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck [Yahweh]'s people. Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

— Numbers 31:13–18

free will can be overided for example a criminal can be jailed against his freewill, babies are immunized against their freewill, so.

Did you read that text properly? Do you not see that the women are instigators of the problem, they seduced Israel through sex inoder to make them weak so Israel could be anhillated . They have a evil custom of using sex as a weapon.
The women and little ones who had knew no sex should be saved alive.

But according to atheism morality is subjective So genocide is neither wrong or right.
By the way answer my question

Wilgrea7:


The thread is literally about morality



Vastly different analogy. That's not in any way similar to what i consider the 'moral problem'



What difference does it make? If I assume for the sake of the discussion that a god exists, how is it different from someone who truly believes? All premises held by the latter will be held by me. So feel free to go ahead with your proof.

If the thread is literally about morality, what's the point in addressing atheists alone? Is it not because they said there's no god? Then how comes the universally accepted moral laws that are not set by man? We're still talking about morality from the Atheists point of view.

The analogy isn't different because moral problems exist as well as crime problems. Both have laws to combat the problems. Laws from both sides were made. They're not self existent laws.

There's a difference in accepting my position merely for the sake of a discussion rather than accepting my position as truth because the former puts you only in an argumentative position with a close mind. That'll lead to useless and endless arguments. I have no time for such. The later puts you in a fact finding kind of argument that could lead profitably to a destination.

Steep:


God gave animals to us to eat, you proving again that there is only objective morality and a law giver.
Else can you from an atheists world view justify why animals should be killed and eaten?
I am waiting, and this is for you lord Reed too

Answer this question

Maynmann:

If my son is in trouble, and I’m a loving father i will help my son first before giving him conditions.
Spanking your child won’t make him change.


Your god didn’t create everything, he didn’t create evil, the devil must have created it, so he doesn’t have dominion over everything and is not the most powerful.

Isiah 45:7– I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7 is not talking of moral evil but rather calamity upon the sinners, read according to context.

Steep:
free will can be overided for example a criminal can be jailed against his freewill, babies are immunized against their freewill, so.

Did you read that text properly? Do you not see that the women are instigators of the problem, they seduced Israel through sex inoder to make them weak so Israel could be anhillated . They have a evil custom of using sex as a weapon.
The women and little ones who had knew no sex should be saved alive.

But according to atheism morality is subjective So genocide is neither wrong or right.
By the way answer my question

But your god does not need any reason to do as he pleases do souls, to the extent of killing innocent babies.

Why are they keeping the virgins for themselves then, to be seduced the more?

According to theists, if you seduce someone with sex, the next thing is to kill them, thats universally right abi

Answer my question first too.

Is it right to do jungle justice to a murderer?

Steep:

Isaiah 45:7 is not talking of moral evil but rather calamity upon the sinners, read according to context.

No where was sinner talked about, how do you read your own context?

Let’s backtrack to verse 6 where your yahweh was laying dominance over all things, good and evil.

6–that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 6 so all the world from east to west will know there is no other God. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7– I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Only if you know how these books were written 😂

Maynmann:

If my son is in trouble, and I’m a loving father i will help my son first before giving him conditions.
Spanking your child won’t make him change.


Your god didn’t create everything, he didn’t create evil, the devil must have created it, so he doesn’t have dominion over everything and is not the most powerful.

Isiah 45:7– I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Your fatherhood principle is only good to you but many father's don't buy your idea. A son who turns an armed robber and got arrested by police is an example. The father is powerful and can immediately order his release. I've seen cases without number where the father would say 'Let him suffer a little, so that he can learn.' Wise and loving fathers. Your fatherly principle is good for you alone. I have no problems with that.

Yes. Isaiah 45:7 is God Almighty speaking. The English translation is flawed. This is it in Hebrew:

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה

FxMasterz:


Your fatherhood principle is only good to you but many father's don't buy your idea. A son who turns an armed robber and got arrested by police is an example. The father is powerful and can immediately order his release. I've seen cases without number where the father would say 'Let him suffer a little, so that he can learn.' Wise and loving fathers. Your fatherly principle is good for you alone. I have no problems with that.

Yes. Isaiah 45:7 is God Almighty speaking. The English translation is flawed. This is it in Hebrew:

Biblical Hermeneutics
What is the meaning of Isaiah 45:7?
Asked 3 years, 9 months ago
Modified 10 months ago
Viewed 11k times
4

In Isaiah 45:7, it is written that God forms light, creates darkness, makes peace, and creates evil.

7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create calamity: I the LORD do all these things.

ז יוֹצֵר אוֹר וּבוֹרֵא חֹשֶׁךְ עֹשֶׂה שָׁלוֹם וּבוֹרֵא רָע אֲנִי יְהוָה עֹשֶׂה כָל-אֵלֶּה

Releasing a criminal is never good, no loving father will say that a criminal should be released after it “suffered small”, that is not fairness.
All criminals should face the same sentence.
Your fatherly principle is good for you alone.

What’s calamity in hebrew.
From the place you copied from, talking about context.

Isaiah 45:13-14 NRSV

13 "I have aroused Cyrus in righteousness, and I will make all his paths straight; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward, says the Lord of hosts. 14 Thus says the Lord: The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and the Sabeans, tall of stature, shall come over to you and be yours, they shall follow you they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying, “God is with you alone, and there is no other; there is no god besides him.”
Conclusion:

The meaning of Bringing Evil "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things..( KJV 47:7)

"I make peace" refers to the liberation of the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity and "create evil" refers to the just administration of justice on the Babylonians for their cruel treatment of the Israelites during their seventy years of captivity there.

Maynmann:


Releasing a criminal is never good, no loving father will say that a criminal should be released after it “suffered small”, that is not fairness.
All criminals should face the same sentence.
Your fatherly principle is good for you alone.

What’s calamity in hebrew.
From the place you copied from, talking about context.

Isaiah 45:13-14 NRSV

13 "I have aroused Cyrus in righteousness, and I will make all his paths straight; he shall build my city and set my exiles free, not for price or reward, says the Lord of hosts. 14 Thus says the Lord: The wealth of Egypt and the merchandise of Ethiopia, and the Sabeans, tall of stature, shall come over to you and be yours, they shall follow you they shall come over in chains and bow down to you. They will make supplication to you, saying, “God is with you alone, and there is no other; there is no god besides him.”
Conclusion:

The meaning of Bringing Evil "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things..( KJV 47:7)

"I make peace" refers to the liberation of the Israelites from the Babylonian captivity and "create evil" refers to the just administration of justice on the Babylonians for their cruel treatment of the Israelites during their seventy years of captivity there.

Your stance about a criminal son is good. That's contradictory to your former stance, where you rush to help a child in trouble on the basis of love alone. However, allowing a child to suffer a little is what I've seen many fathers do. No one wants to watch his son sentenced to death no matter what he has done. I never said it's my principle, did I?

Regarding the Isaiah verse we were talking about, I only wanted you to read the Hebraic text and its literal renderings since I don't speak Hebrew myself. Any other thing discussed on the site is solely the opinion of the writer.

Steep:
It is universally wrong to kill babies because you didn't create them.

If there is an exception then it is not universal.

FxMasterz:


Your stance about a criminal son is good. That's contradictory to your former stance, where you rush to help a child in trouble on the basis of love alone. However, allowing a child to suffer a little is what I've seen many fathers do. No one wants to watch his son sentenced to death no matter what he has done. I never said it's my principle, did I?

Regarding the Isaiah verse we were talking about, I only wanted you to read the Hebraic text and its literal renderings since I don't speak Hebrew myself. Any other thing discussed on the site is solely the opinion of the writer.

All i said is i will help my son FIRST before giving him conditions, then you change it to a criminal that stole.
What conditions are you going to give your son before you rescue him as a criminal?
No one wants to see his children die, but if your son kills someone else child and is sentenced to death, you better be ready to watch your son sentenced to death if the judges says so, and no matter the conditions you give him it won’t matter.

You are contradicting yourself.
If i need to meet those conditions before getting a miracle, why then is a pastor needed, what’s the use of the pastor permission to have authority and power 😂

What’s the Hebrew word for evil in that statement?
Evil is Masoretic רַע (ra).
You can also see it in isiah 5:20, is that one also talking “calamity”.

Talking about hebrew, do you know cyprus is a christ, what’s christ in Hebrew.

Yahweh worshipper lol

Steep:
There needs to be one higher than the universal to create laws that is universal.
Murderer can be killed and it will be right.
Juggle justice is wrong because innocent people can become victims.

You are using a word that doesn't mean what you are using it for. All humans have blood, that is a universal statement because there exists no exception to it. You on the other hand are making statements and calling them universal and then trying to retroactively introduce exceptions to them. Get it through your head any rule that has exceptions is not universal. And in the case of moral rule no such universal rules exist, one will always find exceptions which is why moral rules are for and by thinking beings.

Steep thinks her so called objective morality is a gotcha against atheists. No buddy your so called objective morality doesn't exist, talk more of being superior to something an atheist can come up with. Even some god believers are morally superior to their god since they would not condone issues their god supposedly has no problems with, eg slavery, rape, genocide, etc. How are you advocating for a moral basis you have already superceded. Laughable.

Changed his to her, seems Steep is female.

LordReed:
Steep thinks his so called objective morality is a gotcha against atheists. No buddy your so called objective morality doesn't exist, talk more of being superior to something an atheist can come up with. Even some god believers are morally superior to their god since they would not condone issues their god supposedly has no problems with, eg slavery, rape, genocide, etc. How are you advocating for a moral basis you have already superceded. Laughable.

I don’t even understand by what she means by “objective morality”.
This same woman said killing babies is not bad ITSELF, it’s bad because humans didn’t create it, and because his deity created it killing babies is right, this theists are amazing.

Maynmann:

I don’t even understand by what she means by “objective morality”.
This same woman said killing babies is not bad ITSELF, it’s bad because humans didn’t create it, and because his deity created it killing babies is right, this theists are amazing.

Shooting themselves in the foot. SMH.

“Atheistic world”

Maynmann:

All i said is i will help my son FIRST before giving him conditions, then you change it to a criminal that stole.
What conditions are you going to give your son before you rescue him as a criminal?
No one wants to see his children die, but if your son kills someone and is sentenced to death, you better be ready to watch your son sentenced to death if the judges says so, and no matter the conditions you give him it won’t matter.

You are contradicting yourself.
If i need to meet those conditions before getting a miracle, why then is a pastor needed, what’s the use of the pastor permission to have authority and power 😂

What’s the Hebrew word for evil in that statement?
Evil is Masoretic רַע (ra).
You can also see it in isiah 5:20, is that one also talking “calamity”.

Talking about hebrew, do you know cyprus is a christ, what’s christ in Hebrew.

Yahweh worshipper lol

When you said you would help your son first, you should have looked at all the possible things a wayward child might do to warrant his father's help. And you should have known that issues are in categories (the waywardness of a child as well as the calamities that may eventually befall him). You should have weighed matters well before making that comment. I didn't change anything because I didn't paint any previous scenario. I painted that robber child scenario to help you see the danger in your stance.

I wouldn't make any reversal into the pastor/condition/authority talk anymore. I've spoken at length on that topic. Please refer to our previous discourse for any answers you may seek.

Regarding the Hebrew texts and the Christ you're talking about, I would not go this far with you. I don't discuss scriptures just for argument sake. I've clarified positions upon positions already, and answered several questions. We can't be arguing endlessly on Nairaland as we have other things to do with time. God bless you.

FxMasterz:


When you said you would help your son first, you should have looked at all the possible things a wayward child might do to warrant his father's help. And you should have known that issues are in categories (the waywardness of a child as well as the calamities that may eventually befall him). You should have weighed matters well before making that comment. I didn't change anything because I didn't paint any previous scenario. I painted that robber child scenario to help you see the danger in your stance.

I wouldn't make any reversal into the pastor/condition/authority talk anymore. I've spoken at length on that topic. Please refer to our previous discourse for any answers you may seek.

Regarding the Hebrew texts and the Christ you're talking about, I would not go this far with you. I don't discuss scriptures just for argument sake. I've clarified positions upon positions already, and answered several questions. We can't be arguing endlessly on Nairaland as we have other things to do with time. God bless you.

I said I would help my first son before giving him conditions.
You said you will help your son after he accepts your conditions.
So if your son kills someone and he accepts your condition, how will you rescue him?

The pastor is powerless without the patient meeting those conditions, and like you said the patients can even ask his own miracle after meeting those conditions, you just wasted my time yesterday arguing about collecting permissions before you have authority 😂


Hebrew is not a scripture, it’s a language, the tanakh was written in old hebrew.
In hebrew ra means evil, and there are many christs in Old Testament that’s why the jews reject your Iesus chrestus.

Maynmann:

I said I would help my first son before giving him conditions.
You said you will help your son after he accepts your conditions.
So if your son kills someone and he accepts your condition, how will you rescue him?


Hebrew is not a scripture, it’s a language, the tanakh was written in old hebrew.
In hebrew ra means evil, and there are many christs in Old Testament that’s why the jews reject your Iesus chrestus.

I never said Hebrew is a scripture please. When I say English scripture or Hebrew scripture, I'm referring to the Bible with regards to a particular language.

My Son can never kill someone. It's not possible. So, I wouldn't be dragged into such a discussion.

Maynmann:

No where was sinner talked about, how do you read your own context?

Let’s backtrack to verse 6 where your yahweh was laying dominance over all things, good and evil.

6–that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides me; I am the LORD, and there is no other. 6 so all the world from east to west will know there is no other God. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7– I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Only if you know how these books were written 😂

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The comparison is between evil and peace so this isn't about evil morally.

FxMasterz:


I never said Hebrew is a scripture please. When I say English scripture or Hebrew scripture, I'm referring to the Bible with regards to a particular language.

My Son can never kill someone. It's not possible. So, I wouldn't be dragged into such a discussion.

The Old Testament was originally written in old hebrew. And in Hebrew EVIL – RA רע , the isiah verse is talking about evil.

I never said your son can kill someone, the same way you never said my son will be an armed robber abi, are they not examples?

You said this whole thing but you can’t take what you dish out?
“ When you said you would help your son first, you should have looked at all the possible things a wayward child might do to warrant his father's help. And you should have known that issues are in categories (the waywardness of a child as well as the calamities that may eventually befall him). You should have weighed matters well before making that comment. I didn't change anything because I didn't paint any previous scenario. I painted that robber child scenario to help you see the danger in your stance.”

Steep:


Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The comparison is between evil and peace so this isn't about evil morally.

What comparison? Who created and formed these evil and peace?

Is this your best defense

LordReed:


If there is an exception then it is not universal.

Do you know what the meaning of universal mean.
Right to life for example is universal, so when you try to or take the life of another person then you lose your right to life.
So self difference is not subjective.