Qasim6:





If anyone is practicing blind faith, then that honour goes to you Christains.

You are the ones that compiled forged books as scripture.

You are the ones that have interpolations in scripture. Like the story of the adulterous woman that Jesus save, 1 John 5:7

You are the ones that believe in a doctrine that was stamped by men (the Bishops VOTED at the council of nicea on divinity of Jesus.) Despite a clear warning from Jesus in Matthew 15:9
In vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

Ohyoudidnt:



The shin is interpreted metaphorically to represent the unveiling of hidden truths and realities on the Day of Judgment. Alll will be made bare and the insincere will be unable to bow to Allah

In our state on earth we can not fathom, comprehend or describe Allah. HE has no face, shin, head, legs or eyes. He is beyond our imagination.

Qasim6:


A Christian talking about intellectual dishonesty.

If that interpretation is vague to you, then you need to check yourself.

I showed how God putting his spirit on him simply means the chosen servant will be a prophet.

I showed you a Bible verse and a Qur'an verse that attest to that. What else do you want?

Qasim6:


Calm down

I wanted to type 'Have you checked the Talmud? '

In the Talmud they make fun of Jesus virgin birth, they reject him as the messiah and maintain he was rightly killed for blasphemy and for practicing sorcery he learned from Egypt.

In addition
a crucified messiah is an oxymoron to them. Because the prophecies about the messiah did not say anything about him getting killed.

Ohyoudidnt:
∆ Really? Did Jesus actually declare himself God? That he is established as ruler and Judge on earth doesn't make him God.
The ruler of Egypt in the time of Moses also judged and ruled but that didn't make him God. He may have tried to assume such status but never was he equal to God.
Be cautious of your translations or understanding besides he still referred to himself as the son of Man.
Is this a case of repeating a previous folly?

Kobojunkiee:
Go back through my previous response, making sure to have your mind and eyes as you read it, and then come back with a more coherent response next time.

SIRTee15:


U just dancing in circles to avoid the obvious - Koran has no idea what Messiah ais all about.
Running to the talmud won't safe U.

First things first. Show me the meaning of Messiah in your Koran or hadiths.
I don't want your definition and pls don't go to the bible or Jewish texts.
From your Koran, tell me the meaning of Messiah.

Quran mentioned Messiah 11 times, it's gross incompetence to keep using a word or terminology U don't know it's meaning.
Tell me the meaning is Messiah according to the Qur'an.

SIRTee15:


Show me evidence of anthropomorphism in your Koran.
Yes I agree the shin of Allah is fake thus we humans cannot describe or imagine it. But the fact is he has a shin- whatever the shin is.

My question remain Is that thing called the shin of Allah one with Allah.

Ohyoudidnt:


The shin is not one with Allah.

I will say that what is meant by the revelation of the shin is more in relation to the believers than Allah.

In Islam, anthropomorphism, known as “tashbīh” in Arabic, refers to the act of comparing God to created things. This concept is considered a sin in Islamic theology, along with its opposite, “taʿṭīl,” which involves divesting God of all attributes.

The understanding of the nature of God in Islam stems from the Qur’an’s descriptions that on one hand emphasize God’s uniqueness and incomparability to anything imaginable by the human mind, while on the other hand use anthropomorphic language such as attributing eyes, ears, hands, face to God, and depicting Him sitting on a throne and engaging in actions like talking and listening.

Ohyoudidnt:


Quran 3:45-˹Remember˺ when the angels proclaimed, “O Mary! Allah gives you good news of a Word from Him, his name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary; honoured in this world and the Hereafter, and he will be one of those nearest ˹to Allah˺.

Messiah (Masîḥ) means the “anointed one.” It is used in the Quran exclusively as a title for Jesus Christ.

Jesus is referred to as “al-Masih” multiple times, emphasizing his special status and mission. Surah Al-Imran (3:45) mentions the angel’s announcement to Mary about her son being called al-Masih, a title signifying his anointed nature and special purpose ordained by Allah. Jesus is portrayed as a righteous prophet and messenger chosen by God to deliver his message to the Children of Israel.

Various narrations highlight his miraculous birth, his role in the end times, and his return before the Day of Judgment as a just ruler who will establish peace and justice on earth. The Hadith affirm Jesus’ prophethood, emphasize his virtues, and clarify his position within Islamic eschatology.

Muslims believe in Jesus as a mighty prophet, born miraculously without a father, and endowed with various miracles by Allah. While recognizing him as the Messiah, Muslims reject the Christian doctrine of his divinity or crucifixion. Instead, Islam teaches that Jesus was raised alive to heaven by Allah and will return in the future to fulfill his final mission.

SIRTee15:


Do not contradict yourself.
In one sentence U said anthropomorphism is a sin in islam, yet in another sentence U said all physical attributes of human given to Allah is anthropomorphism. Make up your mind, which is which.

Anyway what I'm asking for is evidence in the Koran that all human attributes of Allah is anthropomorphism.

Ohyoudidnt:


Hadith hold significant value as a source of guidance and understanding in Islam but their interpretation should be approached with caution, scholarly scrutiny, and contextual awareness to ensure their relevance and applicability.

The Shin signifies a moment of divine unveiling or manifestation where believers are able to acknowledge and prostrate before Allah in complete submission and reverence. It holds symbolic significance.

Interpreting the Shin of Allah literally, as a physical body part akin to human anatomy, may lead to anthropomorphism or attributing human-like qualities to the divine being.

The Shin of Allah is symbolic or metaphorical, representing aspects such as power, authority, or manifestation of divine will. These interpretations emphasize the spiritual and abstract nature of Allah’s attributes without reducing them to mere physical characteristics.

SIRTee15:

U just dancing in circles to avoid the obvious - Koran has no idea what Messiah is all about.
Running to the talmud won't safe U.

SIRTee15:

First things first. Show me the meaning of Messiah in your Koran or hadiths.
I don't want your definition and pls don't go to the bible or Jewish texts.
From your Koran, tell me the meaning of Messiah.

SIRTee15:

Quran mentioned Messiah 11 times, it's gross incompetence to keep using a word or terminology U don't know it's meaning.
Tell me the meaning is Messiah according to the Qur'an.

Qasim6:


Why would I need to dance around anything. I'm holding the truth, you are the one caressing forgeries.



What do you mean by the meaning of messiah? Have you forgotten Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic are all sister languages.

Do you mean the literal meaning or what is expected of Jesus as the messiah?

The fact that you christains change the meaning to dying and rising man-god does not change the actual meaning.



Is this a joke?
Qur'an that was revealed in Arabic does not know the meaning of messiah?

SIRTee15:


Then explain to me why Jews would want to crucify their Messiah as stated in the Qur'an.

Ohyoudidnt:



The Quran does not explicitly address the reasons why the Jews wanted to crucify Jesus ('Isa a.s). However, the Quran does reject the claim that they succeeded in crucifying him. Instead, it states that it was made to appear as if Jesus was crucified, but he was not.

The relevant verse is Quran 4:157

The authoroties of the Jews not all Jewish people are not accused specifically of wanting to crucify Jesus because he was their Messiah. It is the case that their rejection of Jesus in Islamic tradition would be more about their disbelief in the message that Jesus brought and perceiving him as a threat to their power and interpretation of Mosaic Law.

Islamic tradition suggest that Jesus came to affirm the Torah and to make lawful some of what was forbidden to the Jews (Quran
3:50), which may have caused opposition among certain Jewish authorities of the time.

Ohyoudidnt:


Why does John's Gospel alone say so amongst the Gospels?

In the Synoptic Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke, Jesus does not explicitly refer to himself as God. Instead, he primarily focuses on teachings about God, the Kingdom of God, and living in accordance with God’s will. However, in the Gospel of John, Jesus makes several statements that imply his divine nature.

Interpretations of biblical verses vary regarding whether these statements signify literal divinity or metaphorical unity with God. It is most likely that it is metaphorical as Jesus acknowledges the father sent him and is greater than him.

SIRTee15:


The problem with Muslims apologetics and also atheist is u guys don't understand Christianity and U don't care to research about it.
All U do is parrot ignorant statements passed around in our mosques or on internet.
Now if I ask U what is the trinity as defined and established by the council of nicea, U will fail woefully. The creed is online for all to see but if I ask U to define the trinity in creed, na something else U go talk.

The trinity in the Nicene creed is exactly as taught by Jesus and exactly what is in the old and new testament. Nothing was removed or added.
You are the one with a problem.
U don't believe in arainism because the theology declared jesus is divine, so debating it with U is useless.

SIRTee15:


Gosh don't U get it. Even Qasim got it.

I'm not interested in why Jews killed Jesus. My bible has the answer.

I'm interested in why the Jews would want to crucify their Messiah.
That's why I'm asking if Qur'an actually understand who Messiah meant to the Jews!!!

SIRTee15:


Gospel of John was written in the first century, stop confabulating.
Scholars date it to 90AD, no scholar put it at 110 AD.

We know this because the writer John the apostle died 99 AD in his early 90s. He was the youngest of the
disciples of Jesus so it's no surprise he lived into the late first century AD.
How do we know John wrote the gospel of John?
because we have the muratorian fragment that confirmed this.

The fourth Gospel is that of John, one of the disciples. When his fellow-disciples and bishops entreated him, he said, “Fast ye now with me for the space of three days, and let us recount to each other whatever may be revealed to each of us.” On the same night it was revealed to Andrew, one of the apostles, that John should narrate all things in his own name as they called them to mind.

What marvel is it, then, that John brings forward these several things so constantly in his epistles also, saying in his own person, “What we have seen with our eyes, and heard with our ears, and our hands have handled, that have we written.” For thus he professes himself to be not only the eye-witness, but also the hearer; and besides that, the historian of all the wondrous facts concerning the Lord in their order

So the gospel of John is valid because it was written by an eye witness who was a disciple of jesus and confirmed by other eye witnesses one of whom is Andrew- disciple of Jesus.

John 21
24 This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true

Unlike the tales by moonlight such as Jesus talking at birth seen in forged gospels the Qur'an copied. We know they are works of forgery because the authors attributed to the works Thomas and James couldn't have written the book.

SIRTee15:


Then explain when did the Jews acknowledge Jesus as Messiah according to your koran.

Surah 5.72

. Assuredly they have disbelieved who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," whereas the Messiah himself proclaimed: "O Children of Israel! Worship God, my Lord and your Lord. " Whoever associates partners with God, God has surely made Paradise forbidden to him, and his refuge is the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers.

SIRTee15:


Tawhid doesn't make sense.

It's a false doctrine never taught by Muhammed and not in the Koran.
Muhammed never attributed the concept of divine simplicity to Allah. He described Allah as a composite being, a god made of up of body parts.
Muhammed never said the entirety of Allah is one, he simply said Allah is one God.
Muslims are the ones going about saying everything about Allah is one, Muhammed never said that.

Muhammed made it clear Allah has a face, 2 right hand, shin and eyes. Allah has a shape and occupies space because he sits above his throne.

Now It doesn't matter if the shin of Allah is real or fake or unlike his creature or unlike anything imagined by humans. The fact is believers will recognise Allah on the last day by his shin whatever the shin is.

So the question remain Is the shin of Allah one with Allah?
No muslim can answer the question.
One of them came here and said Allah is a spirit/invisible in an attempt to fix the problematic Tawhid.
Awon oniro.

If the shin of Allah isn't one with Allah, then I need to know how Tawhid makes sense.

On the last day, Allah will appear to the believers in an unknown shape, they will not recognise him until he shows them his shin, then Muslims will bow and worship Allah.
My question remain, can I worship the shin of Allah?
If I can't worship the shin of Allah, then Tawhid contradict the hadiths.

Muslims should fix Tawhid b4 poking nose into trinity they don't even understand.

Lukuluku69:


The Jews wanted Jesus dead for telling them that their Liberator, Ensign and banner the Jews must be under for Salvation will come from Abraham other Child Ishmael and not Issac as they have believed for eons.

As such, they said he blasphemed Moses (calling Moses a Liar) for it was written in Genesis that it was Issac.

So, they wanted him dead.

Lukuluku69:


If this was established as you claimed (Trinity) why then was a Conference convoked some 300+ after your lord and savior left?

Why the need to debate and vote on God's Nature?

Why the needless killings and banishment in that era?

Lawag3:


Who says only John Gospel talks about the divinity of Jesus? All the synoptic gospels talk about it. John emphasize and made it clear but all Gospel confirms Jesus divinity.

What do you mean by metaphorical unity?

When Jesus said greater is he who sent me he was a man. God is greater than a man

SIRTee15:


Gosh don't U get it. Even Qasim got it.

I'm not interested in why Jews killed Jesus. My bible has the answer.

I'm interested in why the Jews would want to crucify their Messiah.
That's why I'm asking if Qur'an actually understand who Messiah meant to the Jews!!!

Ohyoudidnt:

Were these group of Trinitarian drivers influenced by prevailing cultures as is seen from Hinduism?

Oh you must be especially endowed with the holy spirit to understand this.

What is this? A magic trick or confident bunkum?

SIRTee15:


Intellectual dishonesty in display. Muhammed has no spirit of God on him
The spirit of God is the same as presence of God. The spirit of God is what depicts his presence.
Do U guys even believe in that, do Muslims believe God can enter his creation?
Be very careful what U defend b4 U leave Islam.

Next passage.

Isaiah 42 2-3
“He will not call out or shout aloud,
Nor make His voice heard in the street.
“A broken reed He will not break [off]
And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish- He will not harm those who are weak and suffering
He will faithfully bring forth justice.


Let's move
I know Muhammed killed and shed blood during war. But did he do harm during the time of peace. Did he harm the vulnerable or the weak. Was he entirely gentle throughout his ministry.

SIRTee15:

We know Matthew wrote the gospel of Matthew because it was quoted extensively in the Didache, a cathetist used Jewish Christians in the mid first century.
And Papias one of the apostolic fathers who met the disciples confirmed Mathew wrote a gospel to the Jewish Christians.

SIRTee15:

By stories copied from forged gospel books. U can deny it but the facts are bare.

Quran is a forged book my friend. A book written by someone who has no idea what he's talking about. It doesn't matter if it's Muhammed or Allah that wrote it.

I will force U to see the forgery in your book by the time we done here.

SIRTee15:

Tell me who is dhu al-qarnayn and do U believe someone can sleep for 300 years.

SIRTee15:

The synoptic and John's gospel. because these were written by eye witness. Others are called apocryphal because they are not eye witness account. U are on your own if you choose to swallow the tales in them.

SIRTee15:


Show me Tawhid in your Koran.

Are U not the one I asked if I could worship the shin of Allah and I'm yet to get a response.

Ohyoudidnt:
Arianism, a Christological position in Christianity, was proposed by the Alexandrian presbyter Arius in the early 4th century. It emphasized that Jesus, as the Son of God, was created by God and gained popularity across the Eastern and Western Roman empires. However, it was declared a heresy by the Council of Nicaea in 325.

Beliefs of Arianism

Arianism is often viewed as a form of Unitarian theology that prioritizes God’s unity over the concept of the Trinity. Arius believed in the uniqueness of God as self-existent and immutable, contrasting this with the Son who was considered a created being without self-existence. This belief led to controversies regarding the nature and divinity of Jesus Christ.

The Council of Nicaea condemned Arius as a heretic and affirmed through a creed that the Son is “of one substance with the Father,” establishing orthodox Christian belief. Despite this, conflicts persisted for years, with various councils and emperors supporting different factions within Christianity.

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Janosky:


The OP,"Ohyoudidnt", this is a humble suggestion.

Please Sir, change the topic of this thread.
The appropriate heading should be:

"HOW CHRISTENDOM MOVED AWAY FROM MONOTHEISM: the difference from Trinitarian polytheism."

Your opening write up has made this salient point crystal clear:

CHRISTENDOM birthed the controversies, in their deceptive intent to introduce Trinity which Christ NEVER taught.

Arianism is in alignment with Jesus Christ teaching and practice of monotheism , confirmed by Jesus Christ @Matthew 27:46 , Matthew 16:13-17 & Revelation 3:12,14.



Jesus Christ followers and disciples believed Arianism & NEVER supported Trinity.