debosky:

Unfortunately you are unable to distinguish between meeting a 'safety standard' and being safe - those are two completely different things. The operator is required to meet the safety requirements in its country of jurisdiction and not for another.

Of course the TTC would not be required to ensure anything meet any safety standards because the trains are going to be MODIFIED for use in another environment. It is quite foolish to expect the TTC to meet safety standards when the vehicles will undergo significant modification by GE to fit the rail gauge in use in Lagos including installation of GE GPS control systems. Of what use would such safety standard be?

Although half the cars are more than 30 years old, Ross is adamant they are perfectly safe and are only being decommissioned for capacity reasons. But he also admitted the TTC is not required to make sure the cars meet any safety standards before selling them.

TTC would not be required to ensure safety AFTER modifications? huh??

Dude, TTC likely does not care what happens to the cars as soon as they leave the lot. The statement was made prior to the cars all leaving the lot and certainly should be seen to apply to them at that point, and not at some future point AFTER they have been modified by the buyer. Surely you know that TTC did not manufacture those units. Once the units leave the lot, it is Lagos Property and not TTCs, so why suggest that the statement refers to that which would apply when  the cars are eventually wholly the property of Lagos State and modified by Lagos state?

They are not upgrading because of wear and tear, they are upgrading to INCREASE CAPACITY. I don't know why people are making up phantom arguments instead of addressing the specific case here.

Eh!!!!

if you want increase in Capacity you add extra cars or Carriages (thats going from a 6 car train to an 8 or 10 car trains) or you run more trains within the hour. Please give me a break according to Toronto subway the H5 was due to be retired between 2012 -2013

Current fleet and planned retirement
In 2006, the TTC struck a deal with Bombardier Transportation to acquire and build first 39 TR train that would allow the retirement of the H4 and H5 cars.[4][5] The deal was exercised in 2010 when the TTC and Bombardier struck another contract to acquire and build 31 trains, that would allow the retirement of the H6's. It is anticipated that the final TR's will be delivered in 2013, by which point the H-series fleet would have been phased out from the TTC.[6]
In 2009,[7] Eko Rail of Lagos, Nigeria[8] made a tentative offer to buy the H5 and H6 cars. No deal could be reached at the time since the H6's were not yet surplus, and Eko Rail had not yet secured the project the cars were intended for. As such, Eko Rail was not publicly identified as the buyer at the time.[7] The deal was finally confirmed in September 2011. Starting that month, some H5's were sent to the United States for modification prior to being shipped to Lagos.[8]
The retiring H4's are slated to be scrapped.[8]
H4 - 5576-5663 based out of Greenwood Subway Yard
H5 - 5670-5807 based out of Wilson Subway Yard
H6 - 5810-5935 based out of Greenwood Subway Yard

What I don't understand is that if Southern trains could ask Bombardier to provide close to 150 carriages for around £180m the same Bombardier that builds the same scrap they are shipping to Lagos soon and the same Bombardier that's building the replacement for the H5. Why dont Eko Rail approach Bombardier to build the carriages for them.

debosky:

He did not need to mention Toronto safety standards before you know he is talking about Toronto standards when he says the trains are safe - he clearly says the trains are being changed out to increase capacity.

The international transaction aspect has no bearing as the vehicles are being sold to be modified to fit Lagos Standards - it is incumbent on the buyer to ensure they are fit for purpose and meet all safety standards in the intended jurisdiction. TTC is not using/working to the standards of Lagos State and will not be delivering the vehicles for immediate track usage but for modification. Any fit for purpose/safety standard requirements will need to be established by those carrying out the modification to suit Lagos State standards.

Sorry, again, the trains were sold AS-IS. The decision by Lagos state to modify them is Lagos  and not TTC. And so I see no reason why TTC or any other party should make statements to that end. In the same article, the quoted party suggests that older cars would require frequent maintenance. Does that there suggest then that this is before or after modifications have been made?

Given that this is an international transaction, and given that TTC is well aware of the fact that the same standards don't even apply across canada, let alone the Atlantic, it is safe to assume that he may not have been speaking of little Toronto's safety standards. He could have even been referring to Lagos standards, who knows. TTC makes no mention that it is working even to it's own standards. You are simply informed that they meet safety requirements not CITY OF TORONTO specific safety standards.

Dude, TTC likely does not care what happens to the cars as soon as they leave the lot.

SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!! They dont care what happens once it leaves their shores,

Here's another question to ask of our Government. The H5 and H6's are billed as heavy rail cars. Given that they were built in the 70's/80's I am not certain they were made with light rail configuration. How much does it then cost to convert them to light rail cars? I ask because the Lagos State project states is supposedly a light rail project, however the H5's and H6's from TTC are heavy rail cars.

Thats were the refurbishment comes in by modifying the 3rd or conducting rail

^^ lol . . . I am not that into rail. I research it every now and then. I just wonder how much of a difference there is between the two and how much work would need to be done to convert the one to the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail

^^ lol . . . I am not that into rail. I research it every now and then. I just wonder how much of a difference there is between the two and how much work would need to be done to convert the one to the other.

It depends on where the conducting shoe is located on the train or a AC or DC current issue

Kobojunkie:

Sorry, again, the trains were sold AS-IS. The decision by Lagos state to modify them is Lagos  and not TTC.

I agree - since the trains are sold as-is, there is no requirement for meeting safety standards.

Again, given that this is an international transaction, and given that TTC is well aware of the fact that the same standards don't even apply across canada, let alone the Atlantic, it is safe to assume that he may not have been speaking of little Toronto's safety standards. He could have even been referring to Lagos standards, who knows.

I disagree - when he says the trains ARE safe (i.e. in their current in-service condition) he is clearly speaking about Toronto standards as those are the ones relevant to the operations of the TTC.

When he says he isn't required to meet any safety standards for the sale, that is because TTC is neither a certification body nor is it experienced in meeting Nigerian/Lagos train  safety specifications/requirements.

TTC makes no mention that it is working even to it's own standards. You are simply informed that they meet safety requirements not CITY OF TORONTO specific safety standards.

This is pointless hairsplitting - they do meet City of Toronto/Ontario operating standards, else they wouldn't be allowed to operate. That it was not mentioned in this specific article does not mean it does not meet the standards I don't see much value in continuing down this standards rat hole.

baby-boy:


Eh!!!!

if you want increase in Capacity you add extra cars or Carriages (thats going from a 6 car train to an 8 or 10 car trains) or you run more trains within the hour. Please give me a break according to Toronto subway the H5 was due to be retired between 2012 -2013

Toronto says the trains are being retired to increase capacity. Are you unable to comprehend that the new rocket trains include both an increase in capacity and control systems that enable you to run more frequently? Stop trying to act like you know more than the TTC officials who have publicly stated the reason for retiring the H5 and H6 trains.

The H5 is being retired as higher capacity Rockets are installed.

What I don't understand is that if Southern trains could ask Bombardier to provide close to 150 carriages for around £180m the same Bombardier that builds the same scrap they are shipping to Lagos soon and the same Bombardier that's building the replacement for the H5. Why dont Eko Rail approach Bombardier to build the carriages for them.

£180m is over half the $400m that Eko Rail has to spend on trains, depots, power systems, signalling and the independent power station. If you spend £180m on carriages alone, how much will be left to spend on the power systems, depots, workshops and the like?

They are obviously working to a tight budget hence the use of refurbished trains.

First of Toronto's Former Fleet Set for Refurbishment, Delivery

LAGOS, Nigeria, Sept. 27, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The first of hundreds of Toronto subway cars that will furnish a new surface rail line in Lagos, Nigeria, has left Canada for the last time, and is now en route to Africa's largest city.

A Nigerian company, Eko Rail, has agreed to purchase 255 of the Toronto Transit Commission's (TTC) best-equipped subway cars for use in a much-needed Lagos Blue Line mass transit system. The TTC is in the process of purchasing larger "Rocket" trains to increase passenger capacity on their lines.

As the electric-powered cars become surplus and are pulled offline in Toronto, they will be individually trucked to the United States for a rebuilding by a team of world-class rail engineers. The cars will also undergo track-width (or "gauge" conversion and interior refurbishment before being shipped to Lagos.

The trains have been inspected by the Governor of Lagos State, Babatunde Fashola, who endorsed the plan to purchase them following his official visit to Toronto in May 2011.

"The shipment of the first car is an important step in Eko Rail's efforts to support the Governor's transformation agenda for the city," said David Potter, Eko Rail's Chief Engineer. "Ultimately, the Blue Line, with this modernized fleet, will bring massive benefits to Lagos' economic development and improve Lagosians' quality of life."

Each of the TTC cars come equipped with air conditioning, automatic sliding doors, solid-state traction control, energy saving regenerative braking, and a wide range of modern safety features and amenities. Once equipped with a state-of-the-art, GPS-based train control system made by General Electric, Eko Rail's trains will provide faster, safer, cheaper and more reliable transportation for Lagosians.
Eko Rail is entering into an innovative public-private partnership with the government of Lagos State to equip, operate and maintain the Blue Line for 25 years. Negotiations are being finalized and a concession agreement is expected to be signed in the near future.  Lagos State has already started to make significant progress with building the rail tracks and stations. Eko Rail is utilizing URS Scott Wilson, one of the world's leading railway infrastructure consultancies, to ensure that the infrastructure is built to global standards. 

With financing led by Investec Plc, financiers of more than 25 rail projects around the globe, Eko Rail expects to invest about $400 million to equip the Lagos Blue Line, including construction of a dual-fuel electric power generating station, modern train control system, communications and power distribution, as well as depot and maintenance facilities. When the entire line is operational, Eko Rail expects to attract at least 300,000 passengers per day, with trains running every 5 minutes.

The Eko Rail consortium – led by Nigerian-based emerging markets investment firm Verod Capital – brings together a world-class team of manufacturers, technical advisors, metro operators and public private partnership experts from the UK, Canada and South Africa.

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/eko-rails-trains-begin-journey-to-lagos-130627418.html

Kobojunkie:

Unfortunately, I disagree with your conclusion on the example I gave there. I fail to see your point actually, considering the actual post I responded to.  I do believe my example works well. If you don't like, don't worry . . .  it was meant for those who had an understanding of cars and why it remains cheaper to fix a newer model car than an older model car. I have worked on cars myself for years so I know a bit of that  . . . . .  And people who have will tell you that it is more times than not costlier to obtain parts and service for older model cars than it is for newer model cars.

Train cars on the other hand, is a whole 'nother issue which I am not privy to and which the thread is still trying to figure out. I certainly do not think you can apply my example directly to train cars( what I suspect you actually did above).

No your example does not work well. Your car, however old or new, does not require a mesh of systems to operate. All you need is a stretch of road - paved or unpaved - to move from point to point. With a train, it's totally different. A train requires systemic power generation for effective operation, signalling and control systems for management and safe co-ordination, a train requires stations for commuters to embark and disembark. Now do you want me to strip each of these segments down to every single service department? All this just so that a train can move an inch?

Do you need all that to move your car to your friend's? No you don't!

So my point is, despite the feared steep maintenance costs, the purchase of the older trains may be influenced by the fact that the total cost of running a system that supports newer trains is very expensive. While you as an outsider to the web of systems that run the train see only the cars, the guys who foot the bill see the whole picture.

This is where it looks silly using your car as an example.

As a side note. A faulty electronic door on a train could invoke the expertise of five departments. The newer the door technology, the scarcer the support maintenance and with scarcity of resources comes a very very steep cost. Not all new things are cheap to maintain.

nateevs:

No your example does not work well. [b]Your car, however old or new, does not require a mesh of systems to operate. All you need is a stretch of road - paved or unpaved - to move from point to point. [/b]With a train, it's totally different. A train requires systemic power generation for effective operation, signalling and control systems for management and safe co-ordination, a train requires stations for commuters to embark and disembark. Now do you want me to strip each of these segments down to every single service department? All this just so that a train can move an inch?

Sigh  . . . ,   Learn to read before you responde next time. I have addressed this already. I don't own a train car . . . I was talking of my car, in response to someone else talking of car(not train cars) and scrap. LEARN TO READ. COMPREHENSION is essential WHEN ATTEMPTING TO DEBATE OTHERS.

You cannot make any valid points if you REFUSE to READ what has been typed to begin with. READ, READ Dammit!!

Basseti:

Yeah, thats the fly in the ointment right there.

[b]But as someone rightly pointed out, scrap or junk title can be mostly viewed as a technical term. I know that in my neck of the words, something as subtle as a fender bender on an older car can result it being given scrap title while a newer model of the same car can be written up for repairs after undergoing serious accident. So it is really not that black and white when dealing with used stuff[/b].

eko ile is helping fashola to blind his people like zombies

nateevs:

No your example does not work well. Your car, however old or new, does not require a mesh of systems to operate. All you need is a stretch of road - paved or unpaved - to move from point to point. With a train, it's totally different. A train requires systemic power generation for effective operation, signalling and control systems for management and safe co-ordination, a train requires stations for commuters to embark and disembark. Now do you want me to strip each of these segments down to every single service department? All this just so that a train can move an inch?

Do you need all that to move your car to your friend's? No you don't!

So my point is, despite the feared steep maintenance costs, the purchase of the older trains may be influenced by the fact that the total cost of running a system that supports newer trains is very expensive. While you as an outsider to the web of systems that run the train see only the cars, the guys who foot the bill see the whole picture.

This is where it looks silly using your car as an example.

As a side note. A faulty electronic door on a train could invoke the expertise of five departments. The newer the door technology, the scarcer the support maintenance and with scarcity of resources comes a very very steep cost. Not all new things are cheap to maintain.  

Thanks for the wonderful lecture. Obviously, that thing ran out of anything sensible to post since the beginning of the thread.


Seriously, how many time must that repetitive and redundant thing be lectured in the same thread even after so many silly, pointless and redundant analogies?

$400m that Eko Rail has to spend on trains, depots, power systems, signalling and the independent power station

ARE SERIOUS!!!!! that would never cover the cost of the depot, track and signalling let alone power system or an independent power station, 

Each of the TTC cars come equipped with air conditioning, automatic sliding doors, solid-state traction control, energy saving regenerative braking, and a wide range of modern safety features and amenities. Once equipped with a state-of-the-art, GPS-based train control system made by General Electric, Eko Rail's trains will provide faster, safer, cheaper and more reliable transportation for Lagosians.
Eko Rail is entering into an innovative public-private partnership with the government of Lagos State to equip, operate and maintain the Blue Line for 25 years.

It seems like they have been watching too many series of love-vendor MY RIDE (More like my old banger)


ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Sounds like someone is trying to flog a dead horse

baby-boy:


ARE SERIOUS!!!!! that would never cover the cost of the depot, track and signalling let alone power system or an independent power station,

The rail tracks are being built by the LASG as part of the design and build of main infrastructure - it's not clear how much of signalling will be covered by that contract versus what the Concessionaire will require to invest.

Secondly, why engage in blind critique of the use of older trains without understanding the financial constraints involved?

baby-boy:


ARE SERIOUS!!!!! that would never cover the cost of the depot, track and signalling let alone power system or an independent power station, 

I don't believe that is the total estimated cost for the project. I have seen other sources put the number at about $1.2 Billion for just particular one line of the rail project.

The first two lines of the urban rail project are estimated to cost $1.4bn. The Red line will be 30km long, and will run between Marina and Agbado. The Blue line will be 27km long, connecting Okokomaiko to Marina.

[b]The Blue line will cost $1.2bn and will be funded entirely by the Lagos State Government (LSG). [/b]The 30km-long Red line will use the existing Nigeria Railway Corporation corridor. The Lagos State Government is currently in negotiations with investors that have shown interest in constructing and running the project for a concessionary period.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/lagosrailmasstransit/

@debosky

Look if you cant comment without  insulting people then dont comment at all,

All am saying all day is that you cannot run or maintain a rail service on the cheap simple!!! most especially the one your starting from scratch, am not here to join any mud-slinging competition.

baby-boy:

@debosky

Look if you cant comment without  insulting people then dont comment at all,

All am saying all day is that you cannot run or maintain a rail service on the cheap simple!!! most especially the one your starting from scratch, am not here to join any mud-slinging competition.

There is also this from the same link.

Lagos State Government is currently in negotiations with investors that have shown interest in constructing and running the project for a concessionary period.
It is envisaged that the new lines will be contracted to separate companies comprising two contracts each. One will be a design build contract for the associated rail infrastructure and stations, and the other will be a concession contract. The design build contract for the Blue line has been awarded to CCECC. The concession contracts and the design build contract for the Red line are yet to be awarded.
The design build contract will include the basic design and construction of the rail infrastructure. The concession contract will be for the operation and maintenance of the lines for a 40-year period. The scope of work for the concessionaire will also include design and construction of the infrastructure associated with operation and maintenance of the lines.

baby-boy:

@debosky

Look if you cant comment without  insulting people then dont comment at all,

All am saying all day is that you cannot run or maintain a rail service on the cheap simple!!! most especially the one your starting from scratch, am not here to join any mud-slinging competition.

How have I insulted you? If you don't know how much is available to be spent in the first place, what is the basis of comparison with Southern Trains spending £180m on new rolling stock?

All I've said is familiarise yourself about the project being discussed before making a judgement.

No one is saying you can run or maintain a rail service on the cheap - there will obviously be ticket revenue to contribute to maintenance costs.

The $400m figure is what Eko Rail has declared it will spend as the concessionaire. The figure being spent by the LASG for the design and build of main infrastructure is unclear.

@ Kobo

$400m is not the total cost of the project, that is the concessionaire's anticipated expenditure on its own part of the project - rolling stock, depots, workshops, power systems, etc.

debosky:

@ Kobo

$400m is not the total cost of the project, that is the concessionaire's anticipated expenditure on its own part of the project - rolling stock, depots, workshops, power systems, etc.

Really? I am shocked given this is what I typed below . . .

Kobojunkie:

I don't believe that is the total estimated cost for the project. I have seen other sources put the number at about $1.2 Billion for just particular one line of the rail project.

http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/lagosrailmasstransit/

and Over the past 10 pages, I have suggested so many times now that the cost of the project is in the billions . Really I am shocked!!

This is new to me.

Even when there's no reason to be antagonistic you still can't help it eh?

I was merely confirming that $400m wasn't the total cost of the project. . . . not every post is a challenge to yours.

I don't remember asking you to inundate me with your OPINIONS there really. I mean so far you haven't proven or change anything of what I have come to believe of this of the cost of the project.

I just wanted to  make certain you at least understood that. Shoving more of your opinions at me ain't gonna get me to change my mind.  So spare me the useless information next time. No really, spare me!

Aaaaahhhh kobo and Debosky, you guys are driving me nuts

Muhahahahaahaha!!!

I love this!!

It's not an opinion it is the stated figure from Eko Rail's press release - if you can't distinguish between facts (as provided by the Concessionaire) and opinions, you can add that to your 2012 study list.

$400m that Eko Rail has to spend on trains, depots, power systems, signalling and the independent power station

You only gave me your OPINION on the above. Unless you are going to follow this up next with a quote from an Eko Atlantic official denying this exact number, I say you stick to the issue and stop trying to shove useless information down my throat.

soloqy:

Aaaaahhhh kobo and Debosky, you guys are driving me nuts

Muhahahahaahaha!!!

Dude, I don chop 30 puff-puff, and I am looking to burning some of those calories in the forum today. ROFL

Hey Kobojunkie, U still dey here?

What am I even talking about? This is what I expected. Carry on jare 

Kobojunkie:


Muhahahahaahaha!!!

Dude, I don chop 30 puff-puff, and I am looking to burning some of those calories in the forum today. ROFL

Kobojunkie:

You only gave me your OPINION on the above. Unless you are going to follow this up next with a quote from an Eko Atlantic official denying this exact number, I say you stick to the issue and stop trying to shove useless information down my throat.

Why would I give you a quote denying the exact number? $400m has been quoted from Eko Rail's press release.

Again, in a generous mood, read by yourself - http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/eko-rails-trains-begin-journey-to-lagos-130627418.html

if you still consider that an opinion then I can't help you - refer to option above.