oyb:

did you only see clothes in my post. did cars, ships , planes and oil rigs somehow escape your gimlet eye?

My analogy applies in all cases.

Here's the same mod-ed for the case of a car. If a friend tried to sell you a car for $500, but you had that car checked by a mechanic, and that mechanic suggest you forego the car, because, it would probably cost you $6000 to repair the car of current issues it has, and that it is likely that more issues will arise in future. Will you still purchase that car? Or will the potential repair and maintenance costs and possible amount of use for the investment now factor in to your decision making??

Another worthless recycled thread.

all of us would love to buy the newest , latest etal, but we have to be realists.

if lasg was buying brand new trains i'm sure you'd be in front of the horde shouting about this 'waste of taxpayers money'

the real question would be how much due diligence was carried out in assessing the trains before they were bought. in my case, i took a mechanic along to assess the pickup before i bid for it. with prudent mgt, lasg may get another 10-15 years out of the trains.

oyb:

you are missing my point. let me put it like this

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-107950.0.html

this was a grounded vehicle that my employer auctioned. the car had been disused for at least six months. they did not consider repairs worth it considering the age of the car.  if they had wanted to, they could have given it away. IT WAS OF ABSOLUTELY NO VALUE TO THE COMPANY. however, they chose to auction it and still made some money off it, and i still got some use out of it. it's still working, five years later.

IMO, I think we're misinterpreting or interchanging words, there is NO asset that has "NO USEFUL VALUE" because by the time you break down the components of the assets into PIECES, you will definitely see something that you can appreciate. With regards to your company, though the car wasn't used for at least 6months, though they assumed that it lost it's cosmetic value, it doesn't mean it lost it's useful value (the main thing). Even salvage cars have value (for parts only), let alone one that isn't used for 6months, well, I think it's ok to assume that your company did not see any useful value in their asset though I think otherwise.

one man's trash is another man's treasure

why is this a surprise to anyone? nigerians are lovers of mediocrity.

but seriously, nigerians like to underrate themselves and their value. Julius Berger co. is considered low-end in Germany. They are NOT the cream of the crop over there but we treat them like gods here     They could never dream of earning what they do here over there

oyb:

all of us would love to buy the newest , latest etal, but we have to be realists.

if lasg was buying brand new trains i'm sure you'd be in front of the horde shouting about this 'waste of taxpayers money'

the real question would be how much due diligence was carried out in assessing the trains before they were bought. in my case, i took a mechanic along to assess the pickup before i bid for it. with prudent mgt, lasg may get another 10-15 years out of the trains.

Where is your proof of this statement here? I asked earlier of something along this line but you ignored it now I am asking again. Where is the proof of this claim?

And by the way you rant about how everyone else wants new is ridiculous given that even I have asserted so far that most places do not buy all new but simply what makes more sense for their money. Purchasing refurbished goods is nothing new at all. However purchasing scrap for use as if new is another issue.

Kobojunkie:

My analogy applies in all cases.

Here's the same mod-ed for the case of a car. If a friend tried to sell you a car for $500, but you had that car checked by a mechanic, and that mechanic suggest you forego the car, because, it would probably cost you $6000 to repair the car of current issues it has, and that it is likely that more issues will arise in future. Will you still purchase that car? Or will the potential repair and maintenance costs and possible amount of use for the investment now factor in to your decision making??

Sept. 27, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- The first of hundreds of Toronto subway cars that will furnish a new surface rail line in Lagos, Nigeria, has left Canada for the last time, and is now en route to Africa's largest city.

A Nigerian company, Eko Rail, has agreed to purchase 255 of the Toronto Transit Commission's (TTC) best-equipped subway cars for use in a much-needed Lagos Blue Line mass transit system. The TTC is in the process of purchasing larger "Rocket" trains to increase passenger capacity on their lines.

As the electric-powered cars become surplus and are pulled offline in Toronto, they will be individually trucked to the United States for a rebuilding by a team of world-class rail engineers. The cars will also undergo track-width (or "gauge" conversion and interior refurbishment before being shipped to Lagos.

The trains have been inspected by the Governor of Lagos State, Babatunde Fashola, who endorsed the plan to purchase them following his official visit to Toronto in May 2011.

"The shipment of the first car is an important step in Eko Rail's efforts to support the Governor's transformation agenda for the city," said David Potter, Eko Rail's Chief Engineer. "Ultimately, the Blue Line, with this modernized fleet, will bring massive benefits to Lagos' economic development and improve Lagosians' quality of life."

Each of the TTC cars come equipped with air conditioning, automatic sliding doors, solid-state traction control, energy saving regenerative braking, and a wide range of modern safety features and amenities. Once equipped with a state-of-the-art, GPS-based train control system made by General Electric, Eko Rail's trains will provide faster, safer, cheaper and more reliable transportation for Lagosians.

Eko Rail is entering into an innovative public-private partnership with the government of Lagos State to equip, operate and maintain the Blue Line for 25 years. Negotiations are being finalized and a concession agreement is expected to be signed in the near future.  Lagos State has already started to make significant progress with building the rail tracks and stations. Eko Rail is utilizing URS Scott Wilson, one of the world's leading railway infrastructure consultancies, to ensure that the infrastructure is built to global standards.

With financing led by Investec Plc, financiers of more than 25 rail projects around the globe, Eko Rail expects to invest about $400 million to equip the Lagos Blue Line, including construction of a dual-fuel electric power generating station, modern train control system, communications and power distribution, as well as depot and maintenance facilities. When the entire line is operational, Eko Rail expects to attract at least 300,000 passengers per day, with trains running every 5 minutes.

The Eko Rail consortium - led by Nigerian-based emerging markets investment firm Verod Capital - brings together a world-class team of manufacturers, technical advisors, metro operators and public private partnership experts from the UK, Canada and South Africa

did you miss this?

oyb:

did you miss this?

What did I miss? That the Lagos Governor inspected the cars? That Eko Rail says it is the best for them? I am not certain what you are getting at. That the consortium intends to invest $400 million into the rail project?

Whether or not they are used shouldn't be the issue. We should be more concerned about:

1. The safety of the system (We do not need a "mass grave" on tracks)

2. The economics. Considering life cycle costs (ie capital cost plus maintenance costs, running costs etc), will it make more economic sense to go for it or not.

3. Does the choice fit into the short and long term plan of the system?

No wonder Aregbosla said Oshun State was going to buy her own rolling stock, never knew the prices of these assets are as low as $1,500.00 a car . We keep on learning new things everyday, meanwhile some people are 'hammering' all the way to the bank. Na wah oh

Kobojunkie:


Where is your proof of this statement here? I asked earlier of something along this line but you ignored it now I am asking again. Where is the proof of this claim?

let me push it back at you- where is the proof of your own assertions? you are just pulling assumptions out of the air, that LASG simply chose to buy some dead trains so some officials could make a killing. i am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

And by the way you rant about how everyone else wants new is ridiculous given that even I have asserted so far that most places do not buy all new but simply what makes more sense for their money.

abegi organize credit card for us so lasg can buy the rains on credit then charge big money and have lagosians up in arms .

oyb:

let me push it back at you- where is the proof of your own assertions? [size=13pt]you are just pulling assumptions out of the air, that LASG simply chose to buy some dead trains so some officials could make a killing.[/size] i am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.
abegi organize credit card for us so lasg can buy the rains on credit then charge big money and have lagosians up in arms .

Don't let me call you a slowpoke now . . . where in the world did you get that rubbish from? Which one of my posts did you get that from? I am waiting.

^^^feel free to call me anything you want

is that not the gist of all this long jabber you've been posting?

oyb:

^^^feel free to call me anything you want   

is that not the gist of all this long jabber you've been posting?

You are an arse for accusing me of such. Yes, so rather than read what is being typed to understanding where one is coming from, you choose instead to falsely accuse one of trying to engage you in the senseless you are probably used to spewing yourself? And I take full responsibility for thinking it is possible to get you to reason outside of that box for a change.

As Toronto trainspotters gleefully take maiden rides on the TTC’s Rocket, commuters in Lagos, Nigeria may be about to get some new trains of their own. Our old ones.

[size=13pt]A TTC spokesperson has confirmed that the commission is negotiating with a private group to sell up to 260 used train cars to the West African megacity’s new transit project. [/size]

“I can confirm that the TTC is in discussion with a third party that wants to purchase trains for Lagos,” said commission spokesperson Brad Ross. “Over a period of time, they will be taken out of service and then transported over to Nigeria.”

The cars being considered for sale are the TTC’s old H-5 and H-6 models, which will be decommissioned as the TTC rolls out its new fleet of Rockets. Ross predicts the earliest they could be shipped to Nigeria is sometime in 2012.

Traffic snarls are already a major economic problem in the Nigerian capital, a booming city that will reach an estimated population of 25 million by 2015. A new above-ground rail system designed to carry 1.5 million people a day has already broken ground, and Lagos Governor Babtunde Fashola has said it “will be the most multi-dimensional and most impactful” of the government’s efforts to reduce traffic congestion.

Fashola visited Toronto earlier this year to inspect the TTC trains.

The Lagos deal would be the first of its kind for the TTC. Decommissioned cars are usually sold for scrap metal and can fetch up to $1,500 dollar each. While Ross declined to discuss specific figures,[size=13pt] he says the sticker price for Lagos is “significantly more” than scrap prices, putting the potential profits to the TTC in the millions of dollars. [/size]

It is not unusual for technology from western nations to end up in poorer countries. [size=13pt]Marketplaces in Africa and Asia are flooded with North American clothes, computers, and even cars, but the purchase of larger technology like trains is rarer.[/size] 

. . . . . .[size=13pt] Although half the cars are more than 30 years old, Ross is adamant they are perfectly safe and are only being decommissioned for capacity reasons. But he also admitted the TTC is not required to make sure the cars meet any safety standards before selling them.[/size]

“Once sold, it’s up to the new operator to ensure they are in good working order,” he said.[size=13pt] “They do need to be maintained much more frequently than the new trains, simply because of their age. At some point they will run out their useful life.”[/size]

The writer of this piece just went for the jugular!!! 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-series_%28Toronto_subway_car%29

The H-series (the "H" standing for Hawker the original manufacturer) rapid transit cars are a subway car model built from 1965 to 1990 for the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. From 1965 to 1975, the cars were built by Hawker Siddeley Canada and later by its new owner the Urban Transportation Development Corporation. The cars were built at the Thunder Bay, Ontario, plant. These cars would become the standard cars for the TTC.
Contents
[hide]

1 History
2 Retirement and future
2.1 Retired fleet
2.2 Current fleet and planned retirement
2.3 Early retirements
3 References
4 External links



Based on the 75 ft (22.86 m) M1 the early H-series cars improved on the design, notably by enlarging the operator's cab and using a single-handle controller. Over the programme revisions were made to the designs and each production model in the H-series improved on the last. The H5s were the first to use "chopper controls" . The H5s also added regenerative braking and air-conditioning which was also incorporated into all future designs. The completion of the H6s allowed the retirement of the G class cars and no further H-Series orders were made. A prototype new car T-series was built by UTDC in 1990-91, and evaluated by the TTC. By the time the TTC was ready to order new cars in 1992, UTDC had been sold to Bombardier. Bombardier then constructed the new car order – which would add new technology such as AC propulsion to a similar platform based on the predecessor H-cars.

48 cars based on the H1 model were built and used for the Expo Express in Montreal, Quebec, for Expo 67. 108 modified H6 cars were produced for the Ankara Metro in 1996–1997.
[edit] Retirement and future
[edit] Retired fleet

The H1 and H2 cars were replaced by the arrival of the T1 class cars. H1 cars were retired beginning in 1997 with the last cars retired in 1999. H2 cars were retired in 2000-2001. Nearly all H1 and H2 cars were scrapped, although several H1 cars are used as subway work vehicles. Some H4 cars were also retired by the delivery of the T1 series cars. They were stored at the Wilson Subway Yard from 2001–2008, before being scrapped due to yard expansion and modification for the new Toronto Rocket (TR) subway fleet.

H1 - 5336-5499
H2 - 5506-5575
H3 - 5500-5505 (experimental/modified versions of the H2 that lead to development of the H5)

[edit] Current fleet and planned retirement

In 2006, the TTC struck a deal with Bombardier Transportation to acquire and build first 39 TR train that would allow the retirement of the H4 and H5 cars.[4][5] The deal was exercised in 2010 when the TTC and Bombardier struck another contract to acquire and build 31 trains, that would allow the retirement of the H6's. It is anticipated that the final TR's will be delivered in 2013, by which point the H-series fleet would have been phased out from the TTC.[6]

In 2009,[7] Eko Rail of Lagos, Nigeria[8] made a tentative offer to buy the H5 and H6 cars. No deal could be reached at the time since the H6's were not yet surplus, and Eko Rail had not yet secured the project the cars were intended for. As such, Eko Rail was not publicly identified as the buyer at the time.[7] The deal was finally confirmed in September 2011. Starting that month, some H5's were sent to the United States for modification prior to being shipped to Lagos.[8]

The retiring H4's are slated to be scrapped.[8]

H4 - 5576-5663 based out of Greenwood Subway Yard
H5 - 5670-5807 based out of Wilson Subway Yard
H6 - 5810-5935 based out of Greenwood Subway Yard

[edit] Early retirements

Four H1 cars (5388-5391) were destroyed by fire at the Christie Subway Station in October 1976. 5391 was salvaged and converted to subway work car RT23 in 1984.
Two H1 cars (5342-43) were retired after the fatal subway collision on the Spadina Subway in August 1995.
One H5 car (5755) was retired and scrapped after a switching accident at the Greenwood Subway Yard in December 1981, and one H5 car (5721) was retired after the subway collision in August 1995.
Cars 5720 and 5754 were mated together and renumbered as 5754-5755 in 2003.

from a pdf in the article:

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION
REPORT NO.
MEETING DATE: MAY 28, 2009
SUBJECT: SALE OF SURPLUS ASSETS
ACTION ITEM:
REASON FOR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION:
This report contains advice or communications that are subject to solicitor-client privilege.
RECOMMENDATION
It is recommended that the Commission:
1. Approve the recommendation as set out in the Confidential Attachment; and
2. Authorize the public release of the confidential information and recommendation in the Confidential Attachment upon the award of a contract to the potential purchaser to build and operate a transit system in another jurisdiction.
DISCUSSION
Recently TTC Staff was approached by a company who proposed to negotiate the potential purchase of the TTC’s 135 H5 and 126 H6 subway cars on a sole source basis. This company intends to re-use the H5 and H6 subway cars for a potential project to operate a transit system in another jurisdiction, however, the potential purchaser will not know until at least late 2009 if the project to operate a transit system will proceed. Should the project proceed and the potential purchaser be awarded the contract to build and operate the transit system, this award would then be made public.
JUSTIFICATION
Accepting the negotiated agreement for the sale of the H5 and H6 subway cars subject to the aforementioned conditions, represents a significant financial benefit to the Commission compared to the normal proceeds that would result from the sale of subway cars as scrap.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
May 19, 2009
9-118-80

a more balanced article:

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1049970--ttc-subway-cars-bound-for-nigeria

Tess Kalinowski Transportation Reporter

Just as the new Toronto Rocket trains start rolling in the subway tunnels, the TTC’s old cars are about to start moving right out of the city.

A company called Eko Rail has a deal to buy 255 H5 and H6 cars from the TTC to furnish a 27-kilometre surface rail line in Lagos, Nigeria.

The TTC cars are being gradually retired as the new Rockets come online.

The price for the cars is still under negotiation, according to TTC spokesman Brad Ross.

The first of the H5s is supposed to be trucked out of the Wilson yard to the U.S. next week where it will undergo an engineering evaluation.

The interiors of the cars will be refurbished and they will be converted to run on international track gauge, said London, England-based Michael Schabas, who is working with Eko Rail, the company expected to operate the Lagos line.

The Toronto-born Schabas toured the TTC with Lagos state governor Babatunde Fashola in May.

The H5s have been around since 1977 and 1980. The H6s date to 1986 and 1990. They were built by the Urban Transportation Development Corp., in Thunder Bay, which later became part of Bombardier.

The H4 cars, which are not air conditioned, are not being sold. They will be scrapped, said Ross.

It is not unusual for subway cars to be recycled. Seoul and Beijing cars have both had second lives in other cities.

The TTC announced in 2009 that there was an interested buyer for the H5 and H6 cars but it did not disclose where the subways might be heading.

Lagos has a population of about 15 million people and is expected to grow to about 25 million in the next decade. The new Blue line metro is expected to be running in about three years, said Schabas.

There are three Toronto Rockets already running on the Yonge subway line. They feature open gangways that allow riders to see and walk the entire length of the train. They also accommodate about 10 per cent more riders than the T1 subways, which will be moving to the Bloor-Danforth line.

Combined with a new computerized signaling system called automatic train control, the Rockets are expected to increase the Yonge line’s capacity by up to 30 per cent.

Hmmm

Now I see the logic behind the award of the Lekki-Epe express road to an incompetent and equally inexperienced Hitech coy. There's sure no limit to how far Fashola and boss, Tinubu can go. Imagine a project of such magnitude being awarded single sourced to a company with profile as below:

http://www.hitechconstructioncompany.com/

Only in Nigeria. Five years gone and still no completion sign in sight, Rather than penalty, they get rewarded.

I don't think the article is that bad.

Yes it mocks us for purchasing used cars. But you can only buy what you can afford. Canada and the Western world are 20X wealthier (per capita) than Lagos, so obviously cannot use the same strategies for providing transportation.

The only new piece of information for me is that 1/2 the cars are 30+ years old. And I'm also curious to know how much each car was purchased for.

Finally, there has been negative coverage in the Western media, but also positive coverage. To only provide one angle suggests an agenda. . .

Kobojunkie:

I know what you are trying to argue but it is pointless attempting that. Again, has Lagos ever had high speed rail service before now that charging Naira 500 a ride should be considered a  premium? When Jakande proposed Lagos Rail project back in the 80's, do you think it was to start at $1 a ride?? Ofcourse not. Even the old LSTC rides were not cheap when they first came out. Because these things where new at the time but as time went by, the costs went down as more and more people used them.

If Lagos believes it is too challenged to go for up-dated rail, that is fine. But attacking people for mentioning the obvious, which is that we are building old and not for the new, when, again, cities across the globe are getting rid of their old so they can update to more efficient technologies, makes no sense.

I will remind you again that we have invested about $2 Billion dollars(not naira) at the federal level into obtaining 1970's technology in the year 2011. I am not sure about you but I don't have much confidence in that kind of spending. And I don't have the same confidence in states investing new money into old technology either.

An individual choosing to invest his own money in CAST OFF OYIBO CARS is one thing. But a State investing money that we expect to yield significant returns now and in the far future, in OLD TECHNOLOGY is another thing entirely.

Why not answer his question?. Where do you want Fashola to raise $$billions for purchasing world class trains?. Will you not be the 1st to come here and criticize him if he charges premium for those trains?.

ekt_bear:

I don't think the article is that bad.

Yes it mocks us for purchasing used cars. But you can only buy what you can afford. Canada and the Western world are 20X wealthier (per capita) than Lagos, so obviously cannot use the same strategies for providing transportation.

The only new piece of information for me is that 1/2 the cars are 30+ years old. And I'm also curious to know how much each car was purchased for.

I wont even call that tabloid website a credible news service.

There is a reason why the OP left out the real website URL.

The writer let it sound as if the trains destined for Lagos are some junk trains from scrap yards when in fact we are getting fully refurbished and retrofitted trains loaded with modern and up to date amenities and designed to function even safer and better like new.

I just wonder why the writer left that out, may be he or she was just ignorant per the whole transaction.

The age of the train cars is not the issue so long as they do the job.

What is alarming is the fact that the train cars would have been sold off $1,500, but the train company is going to make potential profits in the millions of dollars. That surely raises my hackles, cos either someone from the Nigerian side has been extremely stup!d in cutting the deal or a few Canadians are being paid a high premium for their silence.

. . .Mama, it don't smell right!

If I sell my car to the scrapyard for metal, I'll probably only get $200 or $300 for it.

if I sell it as a used car, I'll get $10k+ for it.

So no magic there.

In the former the product I am selling it competing against raw metal. In the latter, against other vehicles. Thus the price will change accordingly.

Let us use common sense.

sparkle10:

Now I see the logic behind the award of the Lekki-Epe express road to an incompetent and equally inexperienced Hitech coy. There's sure no limit to how far Fashola and boss, Tinubu can go. Imagine a project of such magnitude being awarded single sourced to a company with profile as below:

http://www.hitechconstructioncompany.com/

Only in Nigeria. Five years gone and still no completion sign in sight, Rather than penalty, they get rewarded.

Lekki Epe Express road? Dude, we are on purchase of cars made some months ago. Not Eko Lekki which itself is a whole issue for another thread.

kodewrita
Nigeria (Ql0ud9 embassy on earth)
Posts: 1583

Offline

Re: Gov. Fashola Made A Laughing Stock Of Lagos In Canada
« #22 on: Today at 08:20:51 PM »
^^Kobojunkie, quite active on politics but not on coding. Found your profile on stackoverflow. Lotsa dudes need your help on the programming forum tho.

Stalk much?

ekt_bear:

If I sell my car to the scrapyard for metal, I'll probably only get $200 or $300 for it.

if I sell it as a used car, I'll get $10k+ for it.

So no magic there.

In the former the product I am selling it competing against raw metal. In the latter, against other vehicles. Thus the price will change accordingly.

Let us use common sense.

Unfortunately, common sense is a rarity on NL

Eko Ile:

Unfortunately, common sense is a rarity on NL

Which is why fungii like you populate the place.

Mediocrity is the rule of the land in Nigeria.

Beaf:

Which is why fungii like you populate the place.

It's really sad when swamp trash like this disgusting feces comments about what his own sorry and incompetent master not only had zero vision to think of or do when he was a governor just like Fashola, but also vision less and incompetent to do as the president of Nigeria with all the resources at his disposal.


This worthless piece of shitt can even show us one thing the dullard he call president abi father did as a governor just like Fashola

Can you show us one classroom GEJ the dullard built for your people?

Can you show us one single GEJ achievement as a governor or even one single classroom he built? 

Your past generations, present generations and future ones are sorry losers.

Trash like you and master really are a sad assault on Nigerians.