debosky:

@ solology

The internet is available for you to educate yourself - Eko Rail is a consortium. If you don't understand what a Consortium is and how they are formed, read up on it and don't expect to be spoon fed at every juncture.

In any case, I'll help you a little bit since we are in the season for giving.

http://www1.ifc.org/wps/wcm/connect/25d8f2804956d2ac92b6be849537832d/7.1_LessonsTransportPPPAfrica-EkoRail.pdf?MOD=AJPERES

Oh please , stop preaching to the choir. Is HITEC a consortium or not? Is it not a private company? Is there anyone in Lagos who doesnt know who owns/profits from it?

Kobojunkie:


The comparison made to decommissioned cars and scrap is what worries me as there is the likelihood that that is also what we purchased.

Yeah, thats the fly in the ointment right there.

But as someone rightly pointed out, scrap or junk title can be mostly viewed as a technical term. I know that in my neck of the words, something as subtle as a fender bender on an older car can result it being given scrap title while a newer model of the same car can be written up for repairs after undergoing serious accident. So it is really not that black and white when dealing with used stuff.

Until we are sure of the level and quality of refurbishing carried out on those trains, all discussions will just be purely for academic purposes.

Kobojunkie:


The comparison made to decommissioned cars and scrap is what worries me as there is the likelihood that that is also what we purchased. Scrap outfitted with the doohickeys it worked with is still scrap. lol  And since we are already spending way in the billions on the project, I see more reason why we should go for gold here.

Who is the 'we' here? The Concessionaire is financing the rolling stock, not the LASG.

Provided the rebuilt cas can provide sufficient years of safe and reliable service, the opposition to buying decommissioned cars appears only a philosophical hangup on the use of 'scrap' or 'decommissioned'
.

The man makes a point there about the quality of the cars and the life left in them. At least we have an external eye keeping an eye on the situation, even if we are going to blindly IGNORE the obvious possibles.

Who is blindly ignoring the possibles? The man has stated the obvious - assurance needs to be provided to ensure the trains are safe. This applies to both newly built and refurbished trains.

Eko Rail has experienced consortium members who have built and own/operate over 47 rail projects elsewhere - my expectation is that they will have performance standards for efficient and safe operation of the rolling stock. The operations and maintenance concession makes this mandatory and this will, of course, require verification.

We do not have specifics on what the refurbishing process will entail -- no specifics on if there will be attention paid on safety of the vessels or any of the sort except for stories ensuring us that the cans will be decked out during the process. So I am not certain it is wise to make absolute claims on what will happen during the process.

I don't see any absolute claims being made here - the Concessionaire has said the cars will be rebuilt/refurbished, till further information is released healthy scepticism is in order given our past history.

Basseti:

Yeah, thats the fly in the ointment right there.

But as someone rightly pointed out, scrap or junk title can be mostly viewed as a technical term. I know that in my neck of the words, something as subtle as a fender bender on an older car can result it being given scrap title while a newer model of the same car can be written up for repairs after undergoing serious accident. So it is really not that black and white when dealing with used stuff.

I think that is usually because the cost of repairs to older model cars, more times than not, are higher than the cost of repair to newer models. And if it costs more than something is really worth to fix it, then it might as well be considered scrap grade.

I used to own Hydai excel car that I purchased for $500 bucks back in college. I loved that car, but when the car developed problems, it emptied my pocket fast. In a period of one year, I spent well over $2000 fixing one thing or the other. We had to source parts from different places, even had to go search in the scrap yard for parts.  Eventually, it was towed and I never went back for it.

If I crashed a 2011 Toyota worth $30,000, I don't think I would consider it scrap to fix given the cost of fixing will probably be much much lower than the $30,000 tag.

Basseti:

Until we are sure of the level and quality of refurbishing carried out on those trains, all discussions will just be purely for academic purposes.

And this is part what I have been saying all this while.  We have information from the TTC end. However, we have some self-made LAGOS-SPOKESPEOPLE here who do not seem to understand that OPINIONS do not count for facts, especially when weighed against what is known from the other side of this.   

P.S. I enjoy doing this with them . . . . they never learn and I can go on as long as I want . . . . Resurrect this thread 3 months from now, and you will see that even if no new information is still available on the particulars of the purchase, the supposed refurbishment being carried out or the price, you will still find some of these same people coming back to fume in the mouth about how it has been PROVEN that the assertions made in the article, and information availabe on the TTC side is wrong. ROFLMAO . . . . I love playing PUSH THE BUTTON with these

@Sology

I do not know who owns Eko rail and I do not care, it could be owned by the devil for all I care, if it is owned by Tinubu and he has not been found guilty of any stealing, then I can not castigate Eko rail for rumors, if you have proof, please forward them anonymously to EFCC, they are chomping at the bit to take down Tinubu and to capture Lagos.
Kobo is just being difficult, the trains are being bought by a private company, Fashola went to inspect them shikena, if the trains are not good enough, you guys can always come together to file a suit against Eko rail and Lagos state government.

Scathing article.

Wasn't there any feasibility study carried out on the train cars before hand

As for those claiming the trains were being decommissioned (i.e. taken out of service) because of faults, this is what the TTC said:

Although half the cars are more than 30 years old, Ross is adamant they are[b] perfectly safe[/b] and are only being decommissioned for capacity reasons.

debosky:

As for those claiming the trains were being decommissioned (i.e. taken out of service) because of faults, this is what the TTC said:

TTC is making millions of dollars in profit. Do you really expect them to be neutral? 

I wont take their word for it

^^^ Could also be that the man made that said considering the safety standards that were in place for the particular model of train cars as at time they where purchased, 30 years ago.

This thread is still going on?

Must you guys let this kobo character string you along with his endless and redundant stupidity? How many times are you going to make the same point that's been made a million times?

This thread is done, it's over. Let the clown have his last word and post his clownish picture alone all by himself.

See what I said earlier? An OPINION, no matter how weak/baseless/lame/ ridiculous you suggest it is, once it is  SHOVED AT YOU, it is considered a  point -- that seems to be the rule for some of these. 

I just wonder how these arguments and counter arguments would have gone if it had been another governor and not Fashola or Lagos State. These are the same people who couldn't understand what NRC is doing, criticising and calling people names. It just shows that you can't find any objective discussion on Nairaland, it has to be partisan, ethnic or clouded with personality considerations. Call me any name, its upon your own head!

Kobojunkie:

I think that is usually because the cost of repairs to older model cars, more times than not, are higher than the cost of repair to newer models. And if it costs more than something is really worth to fix it, then it might as well be considered scrap grade.

I used to own Hydai excel car that I purchased for $500 bucks back in college. I loved that car, but when the car developed problems, it emptied my pocket fast. In a period of one year, I spent well over $2000 fixing one thing or the other. We had to source parts from different places, even had to go search in the scrap yard for parts.  Eventually, it was towed and I never went back for it.

If I crashed a 2011 Toyota worth $30,000, I don't think I would consider it scrap to fix given the cost of fixing will probably be much much lower than the $30,000 tag.

This is however a very awful example as a car needs nothing but a driver and a stretch of road to move from place to place. Trains however, need more than just a train driver and a pair of rail racks to function as a system.

With newer trains come all the state of the art infrastructural installations that make that system function - Electronic, Mechanical, Electrical and Computerized systems all fused into one to enable a functional train journey. These cost a colossal amount of money.

You also fail to consider labour costs. How many Nigerians have the technical expertise to effectively keep brand new systems running? How much would it cost to train them? With newer systems come more expensive staff training and re-training. Who runs the system while Nigerians learn on the job? - Expatriates! How much do they cost? You bet that's not cheap. The steeper the learning curve, the more expensive running the system will be. And so many other things I cannot explain here.

My point is, after considering[b] "all costs involved"[/b], it may be financially viable to buy "30-year old" cars and run a system over a 10 year period than employing a new system. We are not privy to the figures, so I suggest we desist from making unintelligent assertions on the back of the opinion of a single person's article. 

And please never use that example any more. . . Jeez!

Kobojunkie:

^^^ Could also be that the man made that said considering the safety standards that were in place for the particular model of train cars as at time they where purchased, 30 years ago.

Don't be daft - the trains are CURRENTLY being used in Toronto and meet safety standards for CURRENT operation in the city. They are only being taken out of service now as Rocket trains are introduced. It seems you're just making silly comments for the fun of it.

Basseti:

TTC is making[b] millions of dollars in profit[/b]. Do you really expect them to be neutral? 

I wont take their word for it

Where is the evidence they are making millions of dollars in profit or did you pull this out of thin air?

I'd take the word of those that have operated the trains for decades safely than random opinions on the internet.

^^ No one knows what 'significantly more' means in this case - if the scrap value is $1,500, buying the cars for $3,000 can be called 'significantly more'. Multiplied over 255 cars, that is still less than a million dollars in total.

Speculation about 'potential profits' is hardly fact.

This is however a very awful example as a car needs nothing but a driver and a stretch of road to move from place to place. Trains however, need more than just a train driver and a pair of rail racks to function as a system.

With newer trains come all the state of the art infrastructural installations that make that system function - Electronic, Mechanical, Electrical and Computerized systems all fused into one to enable a functional train journey. These cost a colossal amount of money.

You also fail to consider labour costs. How many Nigerians have the technical expertise to effectively keep brand new systems running? How much would it cost to train them? With newer systems come more expensive staff training and re-training. Who runs the system while Nigerians learn on the job? - Expatriates! How much do they cost? You bet that's not cheap. The steeper the learning curve, the more expensive running the system will be. And so many other things I cannot explain here.

My point is, after considering "all costs involved", it may be financially viable to buy "30-year old" cars and run a system over a 10 year period than employing a new system. We are not privy to the figures, so I suggest we desist from making unintelligent assertions on the back of the opinion of a single person's article.

And please never use that example any more. . . Jeez!

The same process to drive a new train would be for an old train, actually for a new rolling stocks are buttons and some of the new stock do not need drivers but old stock requires moving a gear stick from speed to speed,


Honestly the way I see it, is like I have an old Car that has served its purpose, about to scrap it, but my neighbour is willing to offer me a small fee to take it off my hands, If a train company is likely to upgrade all their rolling stock due to wear and tear. They why do we insist on bringing them to our shores?

nateevs:


With newer trains come all the state of the art infrastructural installations that make that system function - Electronic, Mechanical, Electrical and Computerized systems all fused into one to enable a functional train journey. These cost a colossal amount of money.

You also fail to consider labour costs. How many Nigerians have the technical expertise to effectively keep brand new systems running? How much would it cost to train them? With newer systems come more expensive staff training and re-training. Who runs the system while Nigerians learn on the job? - Expatriates! How much do they cost? You bet that's not cheap. The steeper the learning curve, the more expensive running the system will be. And so many other things I cannot explain here.

My point is, after considering[b] "all costs involved"[/b], it may be financially viable to buy "30-year old" cars and run a system over a 10 year period than employing a new system. We are not privy to the figures, so I suggest we desist from making unintelligent assertions on the back of the opinion of a single person's article. 

Commenting on above comments:
This is a new  project end-to-end. New tracks, new stations, new everything. It's reasonable to assume that all what is required to run the service will have been factored into their deployment plan. They would know that they need train tracks, stations, signaling services, power, maintenance and support facilities, etc.

If that is the case, why is Fashola inspecting trains in Canada? Especially if the concessionaire is handling everything E2E? I don't know much about the railway industry, but I'd expect that the train spec would form an input into everything else. I mean, you are building stations, rail tracks, you have to design control systems, but you don't know the trains you're going to buy? Sounds strange to me. I'd have expected that they would just copy a similar deployment from somewhere. Or is concessionaire from the Canadian authorities?

Fashola went to inspect the trains that will run on his tracks and also to show people he is working, if twenty year old planes are good enough for our skies, then 30 year old trains are okay as long as they go through thorough refurbishing.

baby-boy:


The same process to drive a new train would be for an old train,  actually for a new rolling stocks are buttons and some of the new stock do not need drivers but old stock requires moving a gear stick from speed to speed,  

Of course it would be the same. . Old trains and New Trains move forwards and backwards don't they? Or is that not what you mean by "same process"?

Please dude! Stop joking around. I know you work with a train company but do you know the real cost of upgrading a rail network? Most of you commuters and front-line workers can't and never will understand the under-lying systems that drive a functional network.

Yes there might be similar processes in old and new methods, the difference however could run billions in implementation and running costs. Older processes are simpler, easier and cheaper to deploy, implement and maintain. . . . and in a country like Nigeria with minute level of world-standard technical expertise, it could be cheaper in the long run for the concessionaire to employ older trains for a start and then gradually introduce newer, state of the art facilities and equipment.

baby-boy:

Honestly the way I see it, is like I have an old Car that has served its purpose, about to scrap it, but my neighbour is willing to offer me a small fee to take it off my hands, If a train company is likely to upgrade all their rolling stock due to wear and tear. They why do we insist on bringing them to our shores?

They are not upgrading because of wear and tear, they are upgrading to INCREASE CAPACITY. I don't know why people are making up phantom arguments instead of addressing the specific case here.

nateevs:

Yes there might be similar processes in old and new methods, the difference however could run billions in implementation and running costs. Older processes are simpler, easier and cheaper to deploy, implement and maintain. . . . and in a country like Nigeria with minute level of world-standard technical expertise, it could be cheaper in the long run for the concessionaire to employ older trains for a start and then gradually introduce newer, state of the art facilities and equipment.

word! in the past two years we heard serious when across nigeria with the new generation of perkins engine generators. they had an 'ecoplus' fuel pump that could not handle the diesel sold in nigeria. generators were breaking down like no man's biz. i know some guys who have said point blank they will not buy any car beyond 2000 because they know our mechanics will fk the cars up, and if the cars get in one lagos food, its game over

me when some vendor is touting some brand spanking new tech - i say where has it been successfully deployed? no point in being someone's guinea pig. latest and greatest in a backward nation has to be applied with caution

AjanleKoko:

Commenting on above comments:
This is a new  project end-to-end. New tracks, new stations, new everything. It's reasonable to assume that all what is required to run the service will have been factored into their deployment plan. They would know that they need train tracks, stations, signaling services, power, maintenance and support facilities, etc.

If that is the case, why is Fashola inspecting trains in Canada? Especially if the concessionaire is handling everything E2E? I don't know much about the railway industry, but I'd expect that the train spec would form an input into everything else. I mean, you are building stations, rail tracks, you have to design control systems, but you don't know the trains you're going to buy? Sounds strange to me. I'd have expected that they would just copy a similar deployment from somewhere. Or is concessionaire from the Canadian authorities?

The concessionaire is not handling everything E2E - LASG is responsible for design and construction of rail infrastructure while the concessionaire will provide rolling stock, maintenance, workshops, depots and the like.

The superstructure, rail gauge and the like have been specified and will be built by the LASG, but some ancillaries such as signalling, power, communications and control systems will be implemented by the concessionaire, obviously in coordination with the LASG. The inspection is likely part of the project coordination activities between the LASG and the concessionaire to ensure that they fully understand each other's requirements.

AjanleKoko:

Commenting on above comments:
This is a new  project end-to-end. New tracks, new stations, new everything. It's reasonable to assume that all what is required to run the service will have been factored into their deployment plan. They would know that they need train tracks, stations, signaling services, power, maintenance and support facilities, etc.

Perhaps they have evaluated all there is in the deployment plan is why they have opted for the older trains. Perhaps the older trains have all been part of the deployment plan from the out-set. Stations, Tracks are obvious things that need to be done. Signalling services, maintenance and support services is the bane of contention here. Here is where you require 24-7 technical expertise. In signalling services, control systems, maintenance and support, there are several levels of sophistication to choose from which in turn define class of expertise to deploy.

So it really does not matter that it is brand new. It's what technical implementation chosen to be deployed after tracks are installed that counts. For example, you can choose to integrate a system similar to the 'London Underground Oyster ticketing system' and pay up to £1.1bn for it's deployment or design a cash based system which may be more expensive to run in the UK but infinitely cheaper to implement in Nigeria.

Nigeria at this point in time does not have the technical expertise required to design, implement and support such a sophisticated system and as such will have to rely on foreign input which invariably costs more than the British doing the same for themselves believe it or not.

With new trains comes a sophistication that must be supported. The support expertise that is currently unused in Nigeria. What's the point?

Lets say NRC is the one concerned here and not Lagos State - will anyone accept buying these cars to be okay?

debosky:

Don't be daft - the trains are CURRENTLY being used in Toronto and meet safety standards for CURRENT operation in the city. They are only being taken out of service now as Rocket trains are introduced. It seems you're just making silly comments for the fun of it.

Where is the evidence they are making millions of dollars in profit or did you pull this out of thin air?

I'd take the word of those that have operated the trains for decades safely than random opinions on the internet.

Brad Ross, the man who supposedly made the statement you lifted there, said nothing of the standards currently in place in Toronto. That same guy is also quoted below

Although half the cars are more than 30 years old, Ross is adamant they are perfectly safe and are only being decommissioned for capacity reasons. But he also admitted the TTC is not required to make sure the cars meet any safety standards before selling them.

Also, @Basseti actually quoted the same Brad Ross as well. So why are you asking him for evidence when you have yet to field evidence for the words you took of his stating that the cars were safe.

nateevs:


This is however a very awful example as a car needs nothing but a driver and a stretch of road to move from place to place. Trains however, need more than just a train driver and a pair of rail racks to function as a system.

My point is, after considering[b] "all costs involved"[/b], it may be financially viable to buy "30-year old" cars and run a system over a 10 year period than employing a new system. We are not privy to the figures, so I suggest we desist from making unintelligent assertions on the back of the opinion of a single person's article. 

And please never use that example any more. . . Jeez!

Unfortunately, I disagree with your conclusion on the example I gave there. I fail to see your point actually, considering the actual post I responded to.  I do believe my example works well. If you don't like, don't worry . . .  it was meant for those who had an understanding of cars and why it remains cheaper to fix a newer model car than an older model car. I have worked on cars myself for years so I know a bit of that  . . . . .  And people who have will tell you that it is more times than not costlier to obtain parts and service for older model cars than it is for newer model cars.

Train cars on the other hand, is a whole 'nother issue which I am not privy to and which the thread is still trying to figure out. I certainly do not think you can apply my example directly to train cars( what I suspect you actually did above).

nateevs:

With newer trains come all the state of the art infrastructural installations that make that system function - Electronic, Mechanical, Electrical and Computerized systems all fused into one to enable a functional train journey. These cost a colossal amount of money.

You also fail to consider labour costs. How many Nigerians have the technical expertise to effectively keep brand new systems running? How much would it cost to train them? With newer systems come more expensive staff training and re-training. Who runs the system while Nigerians learn on the job? - Expatriates! How much do they cost? You bet that's not cheap. The steeper the learning curve, the more expensive running the system will be. And so many other things I cannot explain here.

I kind of understand what you are trying to get at with this portion of your post. I mean I had to remove the portion were you tried to tack comments you have on my response to this because I could not make heads of what you were attempting, that way. I will just go ahead and offer counters to what you have above and we go from there, but please be sure to head back to PAGE 1 so you get a better idea of where even I am coming from cause your injecting the word NEW into this gets me wondering if you did not just jump into the middle of this without at least ensuring to get the right angle to what is before you.

With new trains also comes technical advice and support, service to enable the new maintainance crew better understand what they have acquired and  routines necessary for the upkeep of new equipment. You say they cost a collossal amount of money yet many other countries, even the one we purchased our train cars opted to buy new, and even pay an additional $60 million to have the cars built right there in Canada, rathr than in russia. So what is collossal about the cost?


First of all, if you can teach a monkey to use a type writer, you can also teach a Nigerian routines to help with upkeep necessary. Nigerians may not currently have the technical expertise to effectively keep brand new systems running, I doubt any group has considering we have never had trains however, Nigerians can be trained. And companies that sell equipment know that there clients need support and so that option is widely offered these days. Sometimes companies even offer support services that can be renewed every year. That certainly helps keep costs down and ensures that machines are effectively maintained.

Here's another question to ask of our Government. The H5 and H6's are billed as heavy rail cars. Given that they were built in the 70's/80's I am not certain they were made with light rail configuration. How much does it then cost to convert them to light rail cars? I ask because the Lagos State project states is supposedly a light rail project, however the H5's and H6's  from TTC are heavy rail cars.

Kobojunkie:

Brad Ross, the man who supposedly made the statement you lifted there, said nothing of the standards currently in place in Toronto. That same guy is also quoted below

So because he said nothing of the safety standards in Toronto you conclude the trains are not safe in their current conditions? He said the trains are safe - they have been proven to be safe as demonstrated by their safe operational history over 30 years in Toronto. Like I said earlier, don't be daft.

Also, @Basseti actually quoted the same Brad Ross as well. So why are you asking him for evidence when you have yet to field evidence for the words you took of his stating that the cars were safe.

Unfortunately you are unable to distinguish between meeting a 'safety standard' and being safe - those are two completely different things. The operator is required to meet the safety standards in its country of jurisdiction and not for another.

Of course the TTC would not be required to ensure anything meet any safety standards because the trains are going to be MODIFIED for use in another environment. It is quite foolish to expect the TTC to meet safety standards when the vehicles will undergo significant modification by GE to fit the rail gauge in use in Lagos including installation of GE GPS control systems. Of what use would such meeting of safety standards be?

Besides, i was asking him for evidence of profit of millions of dollars - there is no evidence of profit in the millions of dollars, only that the price is 'significantly higher' than the scrap price. Remember the author of the article initially said the scrap value was $15,000, which was likely the source of the 'potential' millions in profits.

debosky:

So because he said nothing of the safety standards in Toronto you conclude the trains are not safe in their current condition? He said the trains are safe - they have been proven to be safe as demonstrated by their safe usage over the years in Toronto. Like I said earlier, don't be daft.

Stop being daft yourself!! At least take your own advice there. Where exactly do you have me making such a conclusion . . .  in the post below??

Kobojunkie:

^^^ Could also be that the man made that said considering the safety standards that were in place for the particular model of train cars as at time they where purchased, 30 years ago.

A CONCLUSION? REALLY??


Look, again, the man made NO MENTION OF TORONTO safety standards, and considering this is an international transaction, it makes sense to assume that he was probably not talking of the current Toronto Standards for Lagos State Nigeria. The same man then follows that my mentioning the TTC is not obligated in anyway to ensure the cart meets ANY standard.

Kobojunkie:

Look, again, the man made NO MENTION OF TORONTO safety standards, and considering this is an international transaction, it makes sense to assume that he was probably not talking of Toronto Standards for Lagos State Nigeria.

He did not need to mention Toronto safety standards before you know he is talking about Toronto standards when he says the trains are safe - he clearly says the trains are being changed out to increase capacity.

The international transaction aspect has no bearing as the vehicles are being sold to be modified to fit Lagos Standards - it is incumbent on the buyer to ensure they are fit for purpose and meet all safety standards in the intended jurisdiction. TTC is not using/working to the standards of Lagos State and will not be delivering the vehicles for immediate track usage but for modification. Any fit for purpose/safety standard requirements will need to be established by those carrying out the modification to suit Lagos State standards.