i wonder what the op and other would have to say about the 'scrap warship' donated to nigeria by the us?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-665862.0.html
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-807837.0.html

wouldn't it be better as an artificial reef somewhere?

the real issue is the complete absence of local manufacturing capacity, thanks to our incompetent federal government

Kobojunkie:

Actually the above are not assumptions at all. Yes, the h5 cars happen to be 30+ years old according to information available from TTC sources, and the many reports so far on this particular issue. Also, some of the same reports inform you that the cars are decommissioned, and compared to scrap too. If you go through the thread at least you will find many google-able reports and links to help inform you of this as well.

Now, shall we try again? Now let's try again, shall we? Do you have any actual reports from the Lagos end of this denying the claims? Or is it your turn to play Lagos-spokesman-without-real-detail?

But this has been addressed in this same thread like a million times. What more do you want?

This is getting insanely redundant and you know sound like a broken record.

The article being discussed in this thread was obviously written by someone ignorant of the deal or even TTC - saying that scrap cars are sold for $15,000 - which had to be corrected to the actual value of $1,500. That was a basic premise for his write-up - and he flubbed it.

Still, there is even more information about the deal online (even on wikipedia).

The information below show:

1) That the Lagos bound cars include the H5 (135) & H6 (126) series - So yes, the H5 are about 30+ years old, but the H6 are about 5 to 10 years younger.
2) They will undergo engineering evaluation, refurbished inside and tracks would be changed to international gauge.

It appears to me that unlike the free-flowing criticism going on here the company and Fashola are both trying to make sure the trains are value for money. The engineering evaluation in US should enable cars that fail to be dropped from the purchase.

TTC subway cars bound for Nigeriahttp://www.thestar.com/news/transportation/article/1049970--ttc-subway-cars-bound-for-nigeria

Published On Tue Sep 6 2011

Tess KalinowskiTransportation Reporter

Just as the new Toronto Rocket trains start rolling in the subway tunnels, the TTC’s old cars are about to start moving right out of the city.

A company called Eko Rail has a deal to buy 255 H5 and H6 cars from the TTC to furnish a 27-kilometre surface rail line in Lagos, Nigeria.

The TTC cars are being gradually retired as the new Rockets come online.

The price for the cars is still under negotiation, according to TTC spokesman Brad Ross.

The first of the H5s is supposed to be trucked out of the Wilson yard to the U.S. next week where it will undergo an engineering evaluation.

The interiors of the cars will be refurbished and they will be converted to run on international track gauge, said London, England-based Michael Schabas, who is working with Eko Rail, the company expected to operate the Lagos line.

The Toronto-born Schabas toured the TTC with Lagos state governor Babatunde Fashola in May.

The H5s have been around since 1977 and 1980. The H6s date to 1986 and 1990. They were built by the Urban Transportation Development Corp., in Thunder Bay, which later became part of Bombardier.

The H4 cars, which are not air conditioned, are not being sold. They will be scrapped, said Ross.

It is not unusual for subway cars to be recycled. Seoul and Beijing cars have both had second lives in other cities.

The TTC announced in 2009 that there was an interested buyer for the H5 and H6 cars but it did not disclose where the subways might be heading.

Lagos has a population of about 15 million people and is expected to grow to about 25 million in the next decade. The new Blue line metro is expected to be running in about three years, said Schabas.

There are three Toronto Rockets already running on the Yonge subway line. They feature open gangways that allow riders to see and walk the entire length of the train. They also accommodate about 10 per cent more riders than the T1 subways, which will be moving to the Bloor-Danforth line.

Combined with a new computerized signaling system called automatic train control, the Rockets are expected to increase the Yonge line’s capacity by up to 30 per cent.

Kobojunkie:

Actually the above are not assumptions at all. Yes, the h5 cars happen to be 30+ years old according to information available from TTC sources, and the many reports so far on this particular issue. Also, some of the same reports inform you that the cars are decommissioned, and compared to scrap too. I didn't make these things up.

koruji:

The article being discussed in this thread was obviously written by someone ignorant of the deal or even TTC - saying that scrap cars are sold for $15,000 - which had to be corrected to the actual value of $1,500. That was a basic premise for his write-up - and he flubbed it.

So, because the original mistake was made, even though the same came back and PROVIDED YOU WITH CORRECTIONS, he flubbed it? Aren't you being a tad arrogant there? Considering the article and corrections were posted months ago but you are only today catching on yourself?

koruji:

Still, there is even more information about the deal online (even on wikipedia).

The information below show:

1) That the Lagos bound cars include the H5 (135) & H6 (126) series - So yes, the H5 are about 30+ years old, but the H6 are about 5 to 10 years younger.

I think we already hammered this to death. We have [b]facts [/b]to show this to be the case. I only responded because you claimed in your last post that this was an assumption.

koruji:

2) They will undergo engineering evaluation, refurbished inside and tracks would be changed to international gauge.

It appears to me that unlike the free-flowing criticism going on here the company and Fashola are both trying to make sure the trains are value for money. The engineering evaluation in US should enable cars that fail to be dropped from the purchase.

Good for you that this appears to you, and yes you are allowed to have an opinion on this. However, from page one, I don't think those asking questions have been looking for people to SHOVE OPINIONS down their throats. Notice how many of the questions asked of the TTC angle of this has been easily answered with documented evidence? I even "flubbed" it when I assumed a picture attached to one of the reports on this was of TTC scrap stock, however that led me to finding information on other train cars and their decommissioning -- more information. Good stuff!!

So, yes, We have really researched the TTC end of this. If you have verifiable details(no opinions) on the Lagos end of this, please feel free to make them available.  Again, personal opinions really count for zilch even at this point, 10 pages later 

The article is actually someone's blog- a complete hatchet job to discredit the project.

For crying out loud, the LASG is trying to improve transportation in Lagos by introducing trains, refurbished trains that would have undergone full engineering checks and upgraded and people r complaining. incredible!!! How much can ordinary lagosians afford to pay for brand new trains. Give me a fukkin break!!!

^^^ You know what though? That is a good question. How much does the average Lagoscian currently pay for transportation each day. Let's open a separate thread to find out. Please start one and then we can get past this at least.

assetstrap:

For crying out loud, the LASG is trying to improve transportation in Lagos by introducing trains, refurbished trains that would have undergone full engineering checks and upgraded and people r complaining. incredible!!! How much can ordinary lagosians afford to pay for brand new trains. Give me a fukkin break!!!

Kobojunkie:

^^^ You know what though? That is a good question. How much does the average Lagoscian currently pay for transportation each day. Let's open a separate thread to find out. Please start one and then we can get past this at least.

Well, we know for a certainty that transportation withing the Lekki axis costs motorists an average of N600-N700 per day. For those who dont drive, the burden is being transferred from the toll fees to them.

soloqy:

Well, we know for a certainty that transportation withing the Lekki axis costs motorists an average of N600-N700 per day. For those who dont drive, the burden is being transferred from the toll fees to them.

This definitely will be good research considering the many lame excuses given so far.

oyb:

i wonder what the op and other would have to say about the 'scrap warship' donated to nigeria by the us?

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-665862.0.html
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-807837.0.html

wouldn't it be better as an artificial reef somewhere?

the real issue is the complete absence of local manufacturing capacity, thanks to our incompetent federal government

No, not at all. I don't agree with you there.
At least the scrap warship was donated and not sold. So who cares?
I don't think the Lagos government should be buying 30+ year-old trains. I would get those trains on a free, and run them in a city with less load, and less maintenance requirements. Maybe like Oshogbo or Ilorin, on the current narrow-gauge tracks if possible.  It does not make sense to even do a train project and spend so much money building the supporting infrastructure, only to buy junk trains. That's nonsense.

I thought this light rail thingy was a PPP BOT arrangement. If so, why the heck would the government be inspecting trains, or should I say inspecting junk trains?
Should they not have tendered the whole thing to a consortium that would bring in state of the art equipment? So they can charge N1000 per bus stop if they feel like it. After all Arik brought in brand new aircraft, and are running them in Nigeria. I've flown Arik's Embraer 190, and their Airbus A340. Those jets were brand new. I switched off from this light rail stuff once i got to discover the coming trains were Toronto tokunbohs , and the initial leg was from Orile to Mile 2. Why the heck would I want to ride a train from Orile bus stop to Mile 2 Bus stop

It's Fashola now. He is not to be faulted. Anything his government does is not to be faulted, because he is always correct, perfect and on point.

werepeLeri:

It's Fashola now. He is not to be faulted. Anything his government does is not to be faulted, because he is always correct, perfect and on point.

Why are you this childish? How old are you?

the united kingdom as advanced as they are still use trains that are more than 20/30 yrs old, anyone who frequents the sussex route from victoria to east croydon towards brighton will be familiar with these old trains same goes for several routes all the way to scotland,wales e.t.c
purchasing used trains shouldn't even be an issue as long as they are running smoothly and can serve to adequately tackle the transportation problems.
when you have the transport issue sorted you can then start to split hairs about which is used and which is new.

if the man goes and purchases new trains leaving roads,healthcare and other pertinent issues unattended internet activists will still come on here to abuse and blame him for not doing anything and asking if hungry lagosians will eat trains

Lagos state is not even the ones buying the trains, it is being bought by a private company, can we ask the people shouting to tell us when most of the planes flying in Nigeria were built?

Wow . . .  so Lagos State Governor went out to the INSPECT the train cars for who then? Bangladesh ??



Commenting no be by force, by force!!!

Peeps r getting hung up on the[b] USED [/b]aspect period

No really, anyone able to give us an idea of how much the average commuter in Lagos spends a day on transportation, on average.

@Kobo

Apparently you have not read the original thread, the trains are being bought by a private company, why is it difficult for you to accept that, there are many threads where Eko Ile has straightened that part out. Fashola went to inspect the trains because this is a mega project for the state.

^^^ wow . . . . . you actually believe what you have there, don't you? OK! 

I don't even know how to cut that one. So the train projects in Lagos do not belong to Lagos state but to a private company in Lagos, and Fashola only went there to inspect the train cars for the private company? WOW . . . Let me ask you this. Does Fashola do this for other private companies as well . . . I mean travel out to inspect machinery or equipment they intend to purchase? Also, what qualifications does the governor have that makes him the best person to go inspect train cars on behalf of a PRIVATE COMPANY??

the united kingdom as advanced as they are still use trains that are more than 20/30 yrs old, anyone who frequents the sussex route from victoria to east croydon towards brighton will be familiar with these old trains same goes for several routes all the way to scotland,wales e.t.c

but do you want compare a country that has so many rules and regulation most especially when it comes to transportation,  they do move the fleets around to replace the old one and some due to the distance of the route. #



Can someone tell me how long before they packed up, did the refurbished 747 British Airways sold to Okada Air last?

hercules07:

@Kobo

Apparently you have not read the original thread, the trains are being bought by a private company, why is it difficult for you to accept that, there are many threads where Eko Ile has straightened that part out. Fashola went to inspect the trains because this is a mega project for the state.

Question is who is Eko Rail? Please sir, no one is deceived.

Kobojunkie:

^^^ wow . . . . . you actually believe what you have there, don't you? OK! 

I don't even know how to cut that one. So the train projects in Lagos do not belong to Lagos state but to a private company in Lagos, and Fashola only went there to inspect the train cars for the private company? WOW . . . Let me ask you this. Does Fashola do this for other private companies as well  . . . I mean travel out to inspect machinery or equipment they intend to purchase? Also, what qualifications does the governor have that makes him the best  person to go inspect train cars on behalf of a PRIVATE COMPANY??

There needs to be a clear distinction made - the  'train project' consist of two parts - design and build of infrastructure (rail tracks, stations) handled by the Lagos State Government, and operations, maintenance and rolling stock handled by the Concessionaire.

There will obviously be a need for integration between design and construction of infrastructure and the procurement of rolling stock/ancillaries.

It is not inconceivable that the Concessionaire invited Fashola to take a look at what equipment was being procured to run on LASG built rail infrastructure as a courtesy or as one of the coordination activities between the LASG and the concessionaire. This type of relationship management on large projects is not unheard of, especially in a public-private partnership.

Secondly, he didn't go to inspect 'on behalf' of the Concessionaire - he was accompanied by the Concessionaire for the visit.

Lastly, the whole 'inspection' thing was likely used as a photo-op by Fashola's PR crew to show he is 'delivering' in Lagos. I doubt any 'inspection' happened.

soloqy:

Question is who is Eko Rail? Please sir, no one is deceived.

Kindly tell us who Eko Rail so we won't be deceived as well.

@Sology, please ignore @Debosky's silly question there. This lame attempts to derail from the issue has gone on long enough I beg you.


aaarrrgggghhh!!!!

Kobojunkie:

@Sology, please ignore @Debosky's silly question there. This lame attempts to derail from the issue has gone on long enough I beg you.


aaarrrgggghhh!!!!

Not to be pedantic, but I didn't ask a question - I made a request. The only question here was asked by sology as the question mark in his post indicates. I'd expect you to understand such a distinction but hey, maybe the Christmas indulgence is dulling the senses.

debosky:

Not to be pedantic, but I didn't ask a question - I made a request. The only question here was asked by sology as the question mark in his post indicates. I'd expect you to understand such a distinction but hey, maybe the Christmas indulgence is dulling the senses.

So why dont you answer the question as you know it was a question that I asked? Ehnn? Debosky

debosky:

Not to be pedantic, but I didn't ask a question - I made a request. The only question here was asked by sology as the question mark in his post indicates. I'd expect you to understand such a distinction but hey, maybe the Christmas indulgence is dulling the senses.

I am sorry but I don't care. All I know is that your request/question is plain silly and we don't need to waste more space on such. My own questions from page one of this have gone unanswered. Let's focus on the issue and requests/questions which actually pertain to the issue, not silly attempts at brownie-points.

Kobojunkie:

I am sorry but I don't care. All I know is that your request/question is plain silly and we don't need to waste more space on such. My own questions from page one of this have gone unanswered. Let's focus on the issue and requests/questions which actually pertain to the issue, not silly attempts at brownie-points.

You don't show much regard for making accurate statements here so I'm not surprised that you don't care. 

What about your own silly questions about the governor's qualifications to inspect facilities 'on behalf' of a private company? Is that worthy of space-wasting?

As for your first page questions, you don't even understand the fundamentals of the project in the first place - the LASG is not buying any trains here, the concessionaire is. If you don't even understand who is buying the trains, how can you understand their rationale?

Kobojunkie:

@Sology, please ignore @Debosky's silly question there. This lame attempts to derail from the issue has gone on long enough I beg you.


aaarrrgggghhh!!!!  

lol,

here is Ekorail : http://ekorail.net/ . A one page website hurriedly put up just for this project. They shouldnt close their eyes and try to sell to us that Eko Rail is some company somewhere without any links to Lagos government because we aint buying it.

Where are the other Land mark projects? Where are other similar projects completed by Eko Rail?

Please, lets just leave this discussion on the issue at hand which is the usefulness or otherwise of the cars being purchased by Government.

soloqy:

Question is who is Eko Rail? Please sir, no one is deceived.

The above implies that Eko Rail is a Front for Fashola/Tinubu??   MY GOSH!!! How does one make the question say that?

Anywho . . . .

soloqy:

[size=13pt]The Lagos deal would be the first of its kind for the TTC. Decommissioned cars are usually sold for scrap metal and can fetch up to $1,500 dollar each. While Ross declined to discuss specific figures, he says the sticker price for Lagos is “significantly more” than scrap prices, putting the potential profits to the TTC in the millions of dollars. [/size]

“Once sold, it’s up to the new operator to ensure they are in good working order,” he said. “They do need to be maintained much more frequently than the new trains, simply because of their age. At some point they will run out their useful life.”

[color=#990000]Murtaza Haider, director of the Institute of Housing and Mobility at Ryerson University, said the age of the cars is definitely a cause for concern.

“We should be ensuring that there is some service life left in these vehicles and we’re not going to be playing havoc with the lives of those who would ride these vehicles,” Haider said. “There’s metal fatigue, and that metal fatigue could result in dangerous conditions. I would be paying a close watch on this for the next ten years to see how many accidents do happen in Lagos.”

He also warned that while rail systems are glamorous as far as transit infrastructure goes, they are not always as effective at reducing congestion as other options. Nevertheless, new rail systems are frequently preferred because governments can take advantage of kickbacks from large contracts.

[size=13pt]According to media reports, the cost estimates for the Lagos rail project have varied wildly from $1.2 billion to $30 billion. In 2010, a Nigerian government watchdog accused Fashola’s government of widespread corruption.[/size]  [/b]

The comparison made to decommissioned cars and scrap is what worries me as there is the likelihood that that is also what we purchased. Scrap outfitted with the doohickeys it worked with is still scrap. lol  And since we are already spending way in the billions on the project, I see more reason why we should go for gold here.

The man makes a point there about the quality of the cars and the life left in them. At least we have an external eye keeping an eye on the situation, even if we are going to blindly IGNORE the obvious possibles.

We do not have specifics on what the refurbishing process will entail -- no specifics on if there will be attention paid on safety of the vessels or any of the sort except for stories ensuring us that the cans will be decked out during the process. So I am not certain it is wise to make absolute claims on what will happen during the process.

@ solology

The internet is available for you to educate yourself - Eko Rail is a consortium. If you don't understand what a Consortium is and how they are formed, read up on it and don't expect to be spoon fed at every juncture.

In any case, I'll help you a little bit since we are in the season for giving.

http://www1.ifc.org/wps/wcm/connect/25d8f2804956d2ac92b6be849537832d/7.1_LessonsTransportPPPAfrica-EkoRail.pdf?MOD=AJPERES