oyb:

Nwando

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=103791&d=21&m=11&y=2007

Last week “Qatif Girl”, whose name has not been released to protect her identity, and a male companion saw their sentences increased from 90 lashes to 200 lashes and six months in jail on orders by the Higher Court of Justice.

The two were found guilty of being in a state of khalwa, when an unrelated man and woman are found together, prior to their abduction and rape. The sentences of the seven men found guilty of abducting and repeatedly raping the young woman and her male companion were also increased to between two and nine years each.


as you can see, both the man and the woman were raped,. also, both were sentenced.

Why were they even punished in the first place, that's the question. The only people that should have hadto face judiciary punishment are the abductors and rapists

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@Pilgrim.1: I do not know how to help you; So here are from verses 68 to 75 of Surah mariam. Maybe now you can see that you will have to pass over something! Qur'an, is not a teller of story, wherewith, unnecessary and irrelevant details are provied to make the pages look used. But that is a fallacy, a farce, because there us no sustance to it.

Glad to know that you're the one confirming your arguments are a fallacy and have no substance to it.


Now, let's take a closer look at the translation on the verse you quoted:

olabowale:

70 And certainly We know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein.
71 Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.

Again if we look at even the translation you quoted, you will notice that there is no mention of any bridge there! No "Siraat" - no "bridge"!! And my one request was that you help us quote the verse where Allah actually mentioned any such bridges! Have you done so?


There are a number of English translations of the Qur'an which have politically re-arranged the verse to make it read as if Allah mentioned the said "Bridge" (Siraat) in that Sura! Among those who make such adjustments are:

Hilali-Khan

Yusuf Ali

Abdul Majid Daryabadi

But others do not have a "pass over" Hell; and instead have rendered the verse in various ways, and I only have to offer you just a few of such here:

Dr Ghali:
"And decidedly not one of you (there is),
except that he will go (herded) down to it;
that, for your Lord, has been a thing decreed, a must."

Muhammad Sarwar
"It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that
every one of you will be taken to hell"

Sale
"There shall be none of you but shall descend into the same [hell]:
[This] is an established decree upon thy Lord."

Hassan Qaribullah & Ahmed Darwish
"There is not one of you who shall not go down to it"

[For graphic effect, add to that semantics the translation offered by Dr. Mohammad Mahmoud Ghali whose translation is heralded as a "masterpiece" by Muslims.]

Now gather them together:

will go (herded) down to it

shall descend into the same [hell]

will be taken to hell

go down to it

. . . do the above all sound anything like "pass over a non-existent BRIDGE"?!?

The only place where some Muslim translators get the idea of a "passing over" Hell is not from the Qur'an, but rather from the hadiths. Which simply is saying that they have tried to re-adjust the Qur'an in the translations to fit into the mold of ideas OUTSIDE the Qur'an itself!

Don't deceive yourself by pretending to have lost your understanding of an Arabic that you have not been able to explicate. Open the Qur'an and show us where you find the "Siraat" there as mentioned by 'Allah'!

D-reloaded:

Why were they even punished in the first place, that's the question. The only people that should have hadto face judiciary punishment are the abductors and rapists

you are obviously slower than your compatriots. read the rest of my post

@oyb,

oyb:

you are obviously slower than your compatriots. read the rest of my post

No worries - go read your Qur'an as quickly as you can and discover what Muhammad said about those who pretend to be Arabs!

pilgrim.1:

@oyb,

No worries - go read your Qur'an as quickly as you can and discover what Muhammad said about those who pretend to be Arabs!

@oyb,

oyb:


what can i say - i will say it time and time again   - the american justice system is inherently evil.these are but two cases in which rapists were freed.you will find several more on the net.God's own country must not value its women.

Let me ask you, slicker:

  What about the Hudood law in PAKISTAN where female rape victims are punished for a crime they did not commit?

Are you forgetting that Pakistan is governed by Muslim laws? And what do you have to say about the same Muslim law by which men who rape women are the respected masters of the corridors - and that, my friend, is not a secret done in a corner!

oyb:

Okay, it was a simple request. Just slowly turn the pages of the Qur'an - and you would not have gone very far before you find the verse.

pilgrim.1:

@oyb,

Let me ask you, slicker:

  What about the Hudood law in PAKISTAN where female rape victims are punished for a crime they did not commit?

Are you forgetting that Pakistan is governed by Muslim laws? And what do you have to say about the same Muslim law by which men who rape women are the respected masters of the corridors - and that, my friend, is not a secret done in a corner!

links please.

heh heh - the 'inherently evil' is a dig aimed at your pal nwando.

oyb:

you are obviously slower than your compatriots. read the rest of my post

You're obviously an slowpoke. The point is a lawyer had to take her case on, on her being punished, why the hell would she be punished in the first case and it's not like this story is the first time where the victim is treated just the criminals so spare me.

@Pilgrim.1: May God guide your heart. Here below is your response to me in one of the many today:

However, it is clear that Jesus went to the Cross willingly:

  John 10:17-18
  Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life,
  that I might take it again.
  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.
  I have power to lay it down, and I have power to lay down again.
  This commandment have I received of my Father.

  John 15:13
  Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life
  for his friends.

From John 10, verses 17 and 18, we see that he laid his life on the line, willingly, directly, without man being able to take it as by using force, but that he gave it freely and can take it back at anytime. This was a complete command from his father. Now, i ask you if this is true, and i will not dwell on who actually is the writer or speaker, I will just assume, for argument sake that it is Jesus, why did he beg as in prayer that God may take the cup from his head, at the Garden of Gesheminee? Why did he cried out in a loud voice, before he gave up the ghost on the cross, 'my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?'


From John 15 verse 13, one will be required to ask who was the writer and speaker here? Jesus? This before his cruxificion, or after it? Is this a grand standing statement, from him or somebody who is trying to praise him?

Since the subject of his cruxificion, is very important and it is claimed that he laid his life on the line, willingly, we just can not but wonder if this true. Considering my presentation, to reasonably support my argument! I do not have a mandate from God, in the same way that the Prophets did have. Yet, I am very certain that I will die, pass over the bridge, a razor thin bridge over Hellfire. Hence, I am steadyly preparing myself for it. Trying to correct my mistakes and often think back to my youth, Hoping that I can reconcile with anyone in my past that I may have wrong, and all that may be unhappy with me. I just can not understand, how a man who is claimed to be God and has power over all things, including his own death, but while about to die, even before his arrest seemed to have lost all bearings of reasons and calmness! It does not sound plausible?

I try to find any and all explanations for it. But there is none. I am a product of Christian education, more importantly, my mother was a Christian and I was married to another. I lived with a Reverend in school. I do business with a lot of them. Some even claim that they are prophets! But, in every instance, they have no real explanation, except that there is that BLIND Faith! My faith is not Blind! Jason could not succeed with me on it, hence you need to rethink your Blind faith, again.

To the christian girls. I want to tell you that Islam has nothing to offer you. Ask wether the allah the god of islam has a place for women. Islam is Mans world created by selfish prophet ensalving womanhood.

Ask if all muslim men will be giving seventy women in their own eternity, how many men will each of you muslim women be given?

while you respect yourself as a christian girl. christianity talk about purity, but we take God's grace foer granted. While the bible ask that women shld be love all quaran preaches is how they ll be purnished if they offend their husbands. and husband should inforce religios practices on their wives course the blessing she gets is added to theirs because she has no eternity.

Remember no body tell you these set of truth and live.

I want to tell you that no christian Girl eva hips out with unbeliver. chritianity abhor that in clear terms. Do not be unequally yoke with unbelivers.

Muslim guys prefer way ward girls because almost all of them are premiscus and can not get all they want from their women because they have tie them up with teachings they themselve sees as unfavourable.

while they see their women as incubetors who are not even aloud to express their sexual emotions, they go to them for purpose of progression and multiplyiong their seed while seeking sexual satisfaction from the wayward girls.

choose where you belong to.

Christian girls don't even hang out at all with muslim or way 'ward christian men' they go for genuine relationship and prayerfully wait on God to perfect it before any sex come in. Any christian girl that need that can wait upon her God.

@oyb,

oyb:

links please.

   I can hardly believe that YOU of all people would be so pretentious!!

Uhm. . . let's see how I could help you:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudood_Ordinance

The Hudood Law was ostensibly intended to implement Muslim
Shari'a law, by enforcing punishments mentioned in the Quran and
sunnah for a number of crimes, including extra-marital sex (zina[1]),
the drinking of alcohol, and theft. It was enacted in 1979 as part of
then military ruler Zia-ul-Haq's Islamization process.
The ordinance is most criticized for making it exceptionally difficult
and dangerous to prove an allegation of rape. A woman alleging rape
is required to provide four adult male witnesses of good standing of
"the act of penetration", which is virtually impossible as no man of good
standing would stand there and watch the violent act. Failure to find
such proof of the rape places the woman at risk of prosecution for
accusing an innocent man of adultery, which does not require such
strong evidence


http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=20333

''Where and how is a woman who gets raped able to find
four male witnesses?'' asked a vexed Sheema Kermani,
founder and director of Tehrik-e-Niswan, a women's organisation.
''Why should she be punished and the criminal go scot-free?''


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4271504.stm

Pakistani women speak up on rape

Hudood laws are a tool in the hands of men - with these laws
they can rape women and be totally unaccountable.

Under Hudood if a woman makes a rape allegation she must
provide four pious male witnesses or face a charge of adultery herself.
So a woman is in the ridiculous position of having to produce four Muslim
adult male eyewitnesses, men who just stood there and watched.
If sex by force is not proved, this woman can be charged with "zina" -
sex outside of marriage.

About 60% of women in our jails have been imprisoned as a result of Hudood laws.

oyb:

heh heh - the 'inherently evil' is a dig aimed at your pal nwando.

I understand - Muslims are champions when it comes to taking lame digs!

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@Pilgrim.1: May God guide your heart. Here below is your response to me in one of the many today:

However, it is clear that Jesus went to the Cross willingly:

   John 10:17-18
   Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life,
   that I might take it again.
   No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself.
   I have power to lay it down, and I have power to lay down again.
   This commandment have I received of my Father.

   John 15:13
   Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life
   for his friends.

From John 10, verses 17 and 18, we see that he laid his life on the line, willingly, directly, without man being able to take it as by using force, but that he gave it freely and can take it back at anytime. This was a complete command from his father. Now, i ask you if this is true, and i will not dwell on who actually is the writer or speaker, I will just assume, for argument sake that it is Jesus, why did he beg as in prayer that God may take the cup from his head, at the Garden of Gesheminee? Why did he cried out in a loud voice, before he gave up the ghost on the cross, 'my God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?'


From John 15 verse 13, one will be required to ask who was the writer and speaker here? Jesus? This before his cruxificion, or after it? Is this a grand standing statement, from him or somebody who is trying to praise him?

Lol. . . you keep chasing your tail on the same spot; and I'm not going to play to your gimmicks of pretending I haven't addressed this point before.

However, the issue is on your scholarship on Sura 19:71. It is hilarious that all you now have for defence is a terse:

olabowale:

Considering my presentation, to reasonably support my argument! I do not have a mandate from God, in the same way that the Prophets did have. Yet, I am very certain that I will die, pass over the bridge, a razor thin bridge over Hellfire. 

Lol. . . take my advice: you would need a serious practice walking on tight-ropes if the bridge is RAZOR THIN!!   You guys simply will make me faint from laughing! Haba! Where is the RAZOR in the Qur'an naw?!?  You just keep hyperventilating from one goal post to another leaking net! Na wah!!

olabowale:

I try to find any and all explanations for it. But there is none. I am a product of Christian education, more importantly, my mother was a Christian and I was married to another. I lived with a Reverend in school. I do business with a lot of them. Some even claim that they are prophets!

Are these what made you a "Christian"? You're sounding as if  growing up among the Catholics made me a monk! I'm sorry for you O!

olabowale:

But, in every instance, they have no real explanation, except that there is that BLIND Faith! My faith is not Blind! Jason could not succeed with me on it, hence you need to rethink your Blind faith, again.

Okay, I hear. Many times, we have tried asking very elementary questions - and all you have offered are long thesis and huge leaps in the dark that have said absolutely NOTHING - and yet you have the temerity to claim your faith is not blind! Please bring more comedies to the table!

@olabowale,

Lol. . . I've laughed so hard at your rejoinder - very bad of me! So, I'm going to log off for a good while and then perhaps come back and see what else you have for us!

Meanwhile, please do help us find that verse in the Qur'an where Allah mentioned any Siraat ("bridge" over Hell! Seriously, I'll stop laughing and behave - I apologise that I've been really silly today! But I'm curious to find that verse in the Qur'an, abeg sir!

Thank you again, Sir!

good job pilgrim.
These people think they are discussing with children.
I have heard muslims here including bellotti tell us Saudi is the Muslim heaven on earth.
When they can't get their act together,what do we expect zamfarians to do

oyb for a married man who may have a daughter and sisters you should be thoroughly ashamed of yourself for pointing out punishments of the men who gang raped an innocent woman and the fact that her lawyer is male as evidence of sharia fairness.
Oh the gang of rapists also raped the man?

allahu arched bar!

I thought ahmedinajad said there were no homos in the Islamic world?
so we now have a buch of bisexual men in Saudi of all places
where could they have learnt such "american" vices from?
This one only made it to worldwide media by default
Saudi of all places,the land where the Muslims face for prayers have such deviants?
please educate us.
I thought such actions were only seen amongst American priests and Christians. ( remember your assertions from last time)


At least olabowole had the decency to condemn evil as evil.
It's  people like you with warped reasoning that we should be wary of.
shame on you!

@Pilgrim.1: Rubbish! That all you have said in your responses. First of all, you are not an arab. The Yoruba you are, a much younger language than Arabic, has many words that describe an object. Further a word, when used differently, will mean different things, each of them, may not be necessarily related. So I took the liberty to call many educated Arabic speakers who, without any hesitation, gave me the words that will mean the same thing. However the word in the Qur'an is the best to linguistically mean and describe the action of 'passing over' the fire of Hell. You are a muslim or not, you have no choice in the matter. Its is a thing already Ordained, Hatman. Here is a partial list of the words; Maranbiha, Mashin aleyha, Mabiran aleyha, Aumashihan aleyha, Abiran quilalaha, etc. This is a matter of linguistic usage. But Allah uses Wariduha, in His Book. And I have no problem with it. Are you ready for the test?

@Nwando: The black slapping is very premature. Are you ready for the test too? There is no exceptions. The decree of Allah, is certain. Read again, this decree in Suratul mariam, Verse 71!

olabowale:

@Pilgrim.1: Rubbish! That all you have said in your responses. First of all, you are not an arab. The Yoruba you are, a much younger language than Arabic, has many words that describe an object. Further a word, when used differently, will mean different things, each of them, may not be necessarily related. So I took the liberty to call many educated Arabic speakers who, without any hesitation, gave me the words that will mean the same thing. However the word in the Qur'an is the best to linguistically mean and describe the action of 'passing over' the fire of Hell. You are a muslim or not, you have no choice in the matter. Its is a thing already Ordained, Hatman. Here is a partial list of the words; Maranbiha, Mashin aleyha, Mabiran aleyha, Aumashihan aleyha, Abiran quilalaha, etc. This is a matter of linguistic usage. But Allah uses Wariduha, in His Book. And I have no problem with it. Are you ready for the test?

@Nwando: The black slapping is very premature. Are you ready for the test too? There is no exceptions. The decree of Allah, is certain. Read again, this decree in Suratul mariam, Verse 71!

I don't quite understand you .
I have not gone to read the suratul mariam but I have never doubted that the Koran says some nice things and could make one feel good
But so does snickers chocolate bar and dark hershey with almonds
The issue here is of the assurance of salvation and eternity and accepting a saviour without which you will be eternally damned

@Nwando: Practice it. God is great. I told you. You at least have the courage to write it.
Can you say Laa illa ha illa llah, Muhammadanr rRasullullah, wa Isa bin Mariam Rasullulah.

olabowale:

@Nwando: Practice it. God is great. I told you. You at least have the courage to write it.
Can you say Laa illa ha illa llah, Muhammadanr rRasullullah, wa Isa bin Mariam Rasullulah.

Of course he will remind you when he's looking at you roasting in hell fire, moooo.

olabowale:

@Nwando: Practice it. God is great. I told you. You at least have the courage to write it. Can you say Laa illa ha illa llah, Muhammadanr rRasullullah, wa Isa bin Mariam Rasullulah.

write what?
what am I missing?

olabowale:

@Nwando: Practice it. God is great. I told you. You at least have the courage to write it.
Can you say[b] Laa illa ha illa llah, Muhammadanr rRasullullah, wa Isa bin Mariam Rasullulah[/b].

When your religion is an Arab personality cult,you have no choice but to spew some Arabic claptrap.

didn't you hear allah neither hears Yoruba no English.
what other choices do they have?

I supplicate to Allah in yoruba all the time; Olorun o,
Se a nu mi. ma je ko ju o ti mi. I also supplicate Him
in English: Oh my Lord, make my feet firm in your deen.

olabowale:

I supplicate to Allah in yoruba all the time; Olorun o,
Se a nu mi. ma je ko ju o ti mi. I also supplicate Him
in English: Oh my Lord, make my feet firm in your deen.

do you also read the quran in those languages? Does it still remain the words of allah?

@Davidylan: I read what it means in those lanuages. But I recite Qur'an in its revealed language.
'Qur'ani Arabiyan laha lakun, taki lun.' Rest your heart my dear brother. InshaAllah, idayah will enter it.

olabowale:

@Davidylan: I read what it means in those lanuages. But I recite Qur'an in its revealed language.
'Qur'ani Arabiyan laha lakun, taki lun.' Rest your heart my dear brother. InshaAllah, idayah will enter it.

By God's grace no demon shall enter my heart. Perhaps urs.

Understanding the Quran in another Language does not make it unacceptable. It is only that ARABIC language is composed of words that when you try to explain it you might need the use of more than one sentence and this would make it too long and cumbersome, so the need for using one or two words most suitable to the meaning in another language.

@ nwando - what can i say - Pilgrim called me slicker - I'll have to call you slickest

my point - which you have so gracefully dodged is about refuting your point. if you review all the links i provided you will find that the media and citizens in saudi arabia are just as disturbed as you purport to be ( actually - you jump for joy when these things happen and then rush off to nairaland to post the links).

let me repost

Lashing Out at the Media Over the Qatif Girl Case
Abeer Mishkhas, abeermishkhas@arabnews.com


The case of what has come to be called the Qatif girl is the talk of the media in Saudi and abroad; it is full of issues that we need to examine closely. To begin with, it raises questions about the country’s legal system, the fear of the power of the media and the secrecy that courts prefer to shroud cases in. There is also the social ruling against the girl, which is another important issue that has to be thoroughly looked into.

To put it bluntly, the picture that emerges is that justice is absent from so many court cases in our country. This girl’s case and the way it has gone shows us that the verdict was reached from day one. With no regard for evidence. The verdict was a given and that was that; any proceedings happening afterwards seem to have been only a formality. Otherwise, what possible explanation is there for the increased sentences after the first ruling? And how can we come to grips with the possibility that yet another increase in the sentence is just around the corner merely because she refuses to accept the second one?

at least we muslims don't cover up rapists ( like your priests) and we don't amend our religion to suit the times .


I made a simple point with the references to freed to rape again. the justice system is overseen by human beings. human beings are flawed. in much the same way as hard core  criminals are often acquitted or paroled in  'God's own country' by Judges who should know better, Muslim Judges are also capable of irresponsible judgements. Kindly  Please refrain from trying to imply that I am in any way supportive of rape. unless you want me to assume that your silence on the freed to rape again issues infers that you see nothing wrong with that.Shame on you too.

@ pilgrim - more on hodood-

http://www.peacewomen.org/news/Pakistan/October03/misused.html

excerpts

October 12, 2003 – (The News on Sunday – Pakistan) In line with the NCSW's recommendation that Hudood laws be repealed, many legal and religious experts hold that these laws do not fulfil the criteria for providing justice under national, international or religious law

"This law is used mostly for revenge," says Parveen Parvez, a lawyer at Karachi's City Courts, talking about Pakistan's Zina, or adultery, laws that are part of the Hudood Ordinance of 1979. "Most cases are registered by parents against their daughters who have married of their own choice, or husbands whose wives re-marry after divorce."\


http://drpak..com/2006/11/hudood-law-amended.html

The Hudood Law Amended
The Hudood Law pertaining to rape has finally been amended at long last. Previously, if a woman was raped in Pakistan, and sought to seek justice from the police, she needed to provide 4 male witnesses to the act to prove the charge. If she failed to do so, she would be charged with adultery and locked up in jail. This is such an obviously perverted misinterpretation of Quranic law, I cannot imagine how it was ever introduced by sane people in the first place. As Musharraf rightly said in his speech to the nation last night, it is something to be deeply ashamed of.

wow, u are one slick woman- aintcha?

mdsocks:

Understanding the Quran in another Language does not make it unacceptable. It is only that ARABIC language is composed of words that when you try to explain it you might need the use of more than one sentence and this would make it too long and cumbersome, so the need for using one or two words most suitable to the meaning in another language.

don't mind them.i read an article about the bible being translated into Inuit the other day. there's no Inuit word for 'lamb of god'. so they had to substitue 'God's creature that looks like a caribou calf'

i wonder how many more manglings we will find in their translations

FATHER let Olabowale begin to see the true light
FATHER,let that demon dwelling in him to live right now
FATHER I pray he start realising that there's no one before you,after you, above you and
beside you in JESUS MIGHTY NAME I PRAY AMEN.

@Skyone: I could not resist to respond to your post. It is your father in 9ja or
there is another that sired you? Ol boy get a life! You are an annoyance. I can handle
silly and childlike behavior, but stupidity is like madness, in my eye. If you continue
your stupid behaviour, I will just have to ignore you as i will ignore a madman!

Get with the program! Dig?

olabowale:

@Skyone: I could not resist to respond to your post. It is your father in Nigeria or
there is another that sired you? Ol boy get a life! You are an annoyance. I can handle
silly and childlike behavior, but stupidity is like madness, in my eye. If you continue
your stupid behaviour, I will just have to ignore you as i will ignore a madman!

Get with the program! Dig?

Uncle Ola, are you angry ??

Calm down and face issues like a man. Or have you drank some camel's urine today?