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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis (3465 Views)
Poll: Is "love your neighbour" reasonable and practical?Yes: 50% (3 votes)No: 16% (1 vote) Yes, but conditions apply: 33% (2 votes) This poll has ended |
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Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by MyJoe: 11:56pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Maybe that is largely a matter of sheer numbers. I mean there are far more Christians than others where you live so they're most likely to be seen actively promoting stuff. But, yeah, atheists are more tolerant of gays generally. Generally. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 11:57pm On Aug 03, 2012 |
Addittionally, i agree with Myjoe that it is ridiculous to judge the worth of an injunction by reference to the perverted capacities of man. EVERY law or injunction can be absurdly attacked in this way. If we say pay your taxes, someone may say that his understanding of tax is tithe. If we say respect the law of the land, somebody may say that the supreme law of every land is the one his deity has proclaimed - including Jihad. Everything can be "absurdified" and that's what is going on here. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 12:03am On Aug 04, 2012 |
MyJoe: It's because God is incomprehensible and unknowable. That is the short answer. Excellently put. In fact, the commandments to love God and the love your neighbour are one and the same commandment and not two commandments. In fact i recall having an extensive debate with Jesoul about that. I said to her that the only way one loves God is by loving fellow man: and that the atheist who does this already displays great love of God, whether he expresses it cognitively as such or not. M_Nwankwo also has a great post on this, which I am sure I have posted a trillion times for others. I will look for the posts yet again: they are topical. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 1:54am On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: I reproduce in blue below the post in that thread which sums up my view and the point laboured to be made - |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 1:55am On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Jesoul. Please do not worry about dear old viaro. In terms of our discourses i am sure there are absurdities enough to fill the entire universe. Such as physical bodies dwelling in spiritual heavens and the like. We leave that to himself and myself. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 1:56am On Aug 04, 2012 |
m_nwankwo: God is love. One can also say that God is the source of love. All creatures of God irrespective of race, religion, sex, nationality etc can absorb of this love of God and dispense it accordingly. In the case of human beings, what absorbs this love from God is the human spirit. This love will permeate the spirit, its clocks including the outermost shell, the physical body. Thus he who absorbs the rays of love will manifest love including love for all creations of God. Now, the recognition of this love as coming from God depends on the various radiation connection between the spirit and the various shells surrounding the spirit, the last shell being the physical body and its coordinating center, the human brain. In many of us, this radiation connections are not straight, thus the shells enveloping the spirit are not conscious of the impressions that vibrates in the spirit. Thus a man may believe himself to be an atheist because that is what his brain tells him and yet his spirit is in the recognition of God. Irrespective of his brain telling him that God does not exist, the emanations of the spirit including love still permeates his mind and body resulting in expressions of genuine love. Thus although from a human standpoint, such a man is considered by himself and others to be atheist, spiritually the man is a theist. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 1:58am On Aug 04, 2012 |
All the above from this thread - https://www.nairaland.com/634923/wallace-cannot-good-god-does - - A thread I initiated from an article in the Guardian by someone who asserted that believing in God is integral to being good - a notion I disagreed, and disagree with. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:39am On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Whatever you say. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:54am On Aug 04, 2012 |
MyJoe: It's because God is incomprehensible and unknowable. That is the short answer. I hold the same opinion......if there is anything like gods. MyJoe: When I think of God I pull back. It's hard to take much of the descriptions of him you find in the Bible and Quran seriously. Loving God for me means loving his creation, and nothing more. Making the God entity an object of love is what I'm not sure I have the rudiments of. No, I don't do Jewish myths or any myths. Belief in God is not all about any particular concept of him. It's about recognising the necessity of God and apprehending the evidence from, not just the amount of order you see around you, but the pattern - now, that is subjective in my view. You say you don't believe in Jewish myths, but, forgive me if I'm wrong, it seems your concept of "Him" is the Judeo Christian one based on the jewish myth of Yahweh,even though you claim it's hard to take it seriously. You mentioned the bible and the quran as examples of what god is and made no mention of indigenous African ideas of "Him". Anyway, about the necessity of God and the pattern. What pattern exactly proves God? Why is God a necessity? Why invoke a supernatural cause to explain natural occurences when there is no evidence of the supernatural? If the supernatural exists, is there any way to show that it interacts with this natural world? You talk about order but you ignore the mounting evidence from research that the universe isn't "ordered" and some parts are what humans will find chaotic and even "hellish". What do you mean by order? Our planet being habitable for humans? |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:59am On Aug 04, 2012 |
MyJoe: When I read that verse I see a commandment to love God and my neighbour. I don't bother about the Israel bit. Whether Jesus lived at the time and place alleged does not matter. What is is that statement attributed to him which is useful. Can you fully love god and treat your neighbor fair? What if your neighbors beliefs goes against your god's? How do you go about loving a god? |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 1:20pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: Yeah, duck, when ratted out in an outright lie. Martian: Stop being pedantic, you know what he meant there. Anyway, about the necessity of God Is there any point taking this up with you? Where you are shown logical arguments that render God necessary - would you accept such arguments, or simply stomp off in a sulky huff, maintaining its all gibberish, without arguing coherently back? and the pattern. What pattern exactly proves God? Well you can start with the patterns of living things. Especially the patterns of the make up of advanced living things such as yourself. As an aside, reflect also on some of the attributes of these living things which have no evolutionary necessity. Such as music and dance. Poetry. Philosophy. Are there not parts of our consciousness that evolution would forever remain insufficient to explain? Why is God a necessity? Because ex nihilo nihil fit. Why invoke a supernatural cause to explain natural occurences when there is no evidence of the supernatural? If the supernatural exists, is there any way to show that it interacts with this natural world? Actually, everything, even God, is natural. We conveniently use the word "supernatural" simply to refer to something that transcends the closed system we live in - and as such a thing we can only have limited understanding of. You talk about order but you ignore the mounting evidence from research that the universe isn't "ordered" and some parts are what humans will find chaotic and even "hellish". What do you mean by order? Our planet being habitable for humans? We have seen way too little of the universe to conclude that it is largely chaotic. You have to be high up in the stands, in a stadium, to appreciate the patterns of a parade display. The procession of the universes may perhaps only be viewed by one with a bird's eye view of them. Do you have such? |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 1:39pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Check the first page. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 1:55pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: Come on, stop stretching your dishonesty to the point of ridicule. You know very well your initial comments which inspired this thread were not on the first page here, but on another preceding thread. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 1:55pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: And your logical arguments from god are all arguments from ignorance based on whatever monotheist faith you belonged to. The last time you concluded that god was "infinite apace" and "infinite time" and admitted that you were just separating the space time continuum to fit your ideas. What are the patterns of living things that point to design by god? What about music, dance,poetry and philosophy point to design by a god? Conciousness not being fully understood points to god? If god is natural, how do you go about discovering it using the scientific method? I didnt conclude that it's largely chaotic, it's you and MyJoe that infer design and pattern using arguments from ignorance. I only pointed out that what you term " orderly" isn't universal. So have you been high up in the stands to "appreciate the patterns" of the universal order, or are using using your sentiments as evidence...as usual. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 1:58pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Okay then, Inspector gadget, go dig it up. Anyway, there is still nothing profound about "love your neighbor" and loving god makes no sense.......at least to me. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 2:02pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: Why should I do that task? We all know what you said. Anyway, there is still nothing profound about "love your neighbor" Scaling down are we? You initially described it as fo.olish and s.illy. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:05pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Ok, good for you.take it as scaling down. Don't do the task. It still remains that the first quote was mere platitude and the second is just generic human behavior in any civilized society. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:07pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: And so what if I describe it as foolish and silly? Do you score some kind of psychological victory because I don't agree with Jesus? Lol, ever since your ancient alien idiocy,you've been quick to always try to find fault in anything I say. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 2:12pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: No it is not. I had first rejected those ideas completely before starting again. Please stop writing my biography for me, when it is time I may do an autobiography - that is only if my life turns out to be relevant enough to warrant an interesting read. The last time you concluded that god was "infinite apace" and "infinite time" and admitted that you were just separating the space time continuum to fit your ideas. Yes indeed, God at its intrinsic self-existent level is the "cynosure" or the combination of these. What are the patterns of living things that point to design by god? Many. But how about try your brain for size. It's a marvel you know? Have you ever taken time to really read about its working? What about music, dance,poetry and philosophy point to design by a god? They evince a side to our consciousness that is not accounted for by evolution or natural selection alone. Conciousness not being fully understood points to god? Consciousness points to God. If god is natural, how do you go about discovering it using the scientific method? It is not an animal you may take to the lab: it is rather all things, so simply study all things and you will see God. Yeah, you will stare God face to face. I didnt conclude that it's largely chaotic, it's you and MyJoe that infer design and pattern using arguments from ignorance. I only pointed out that what you term " orderly" isn't universal. And your definite assertion that it is NOT orderly is not an argument from ignorance? So have you been high up in the stands to "appreciate the patterns" of the universal order, or are using using your sentiments as evidence...as usual. I simply pointed out to you that only one with a bird's eye view of the universes can make this call. Is this a lie? As for me, I make the design argument from the one's i see around me - including my own fearfully constructed brain which at least we have a view of. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 2:19pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: Ad hominem. It doesn't take ancient aliens to see how nonsensical your attack on that teaching was. The person who opened this thread - has he ever said anything about ancient aliens? Abeg stop getting desperate simply because your duplicity and shallowness is being exposed. Don't worry, you are still one of my favorite posters. I also sense in your reticence on the ex nihilo issue that you are contemplating the possible existence of God. I encourage you in that regard. Incidentally, that was the only line in my other revert toy you, that you stayed away from. Good, Good. Good, God. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:22pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: The only thing worth replying is the bolded. The rest is just your usual arguments from ignorance and assumptions that you are the only one that has read about something. It's become boring to me. You read about the brain and conclude that its evidence for god while I continue to read and try to understand as more information comes available.You see god in everything.lol I never said it was definitely NOT orderly. I said what you people might call order is not present in every part of the universe as far as observations have shown. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:24pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: The person who opened the thread already stopped talking about it.So who's obsessed? I've just noticed your behavior since that ancient aliens thread, but I may be wrong. But never mind, I've been "exposed" because I find the Jewish carpenter silly. You are not my favorite anything. Even if I knew you in real life. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 2:44pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: Do you really think he has the time? I just happen to have the time because as y'all know, brick-batting is my thing. And yes, if being obsessed with an attack on "love your neighbour" is what you accuse me of, believe me, it is a horrendous enough attack for any sensible person to be obsessed with rebutting. So i plead guilty, sir. You are not my favorite anything. Even if I knew you in real life. Lol. You take words too seriously. I suspect that this is the bitter effect of being caught in an open attempt at a lie. Don't worry, it has happened to many, myself inclusive. Calm down there and don't become the next bitter anti-deepsightist. I've just noticed your behavior since that ancient aliens thread, but I may be wrong. You are wrong: my debating style is well known and notorious on this forum. It did not start with you or with ancient aliens. I am not ashamed of that discussion. The subject still intrigues me, so kill yourself if that amuses you. But never mind, I've been "exposed" because I find the Jewish carpenter silly. No: you were exposed sneakily trying to withdraw from your earlier statements and insinuate that you did not make them. That is falsehood. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 2:52pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Good for you. Are you done? Did you let it all out? Lol |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 3:09pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Ol boy, go siddon. Mr "the commandment i attacked is the one about loving God". Even after viciously attacking the commandment to love fellow men. You no get shame o. Good afternoon. Gotta go. Lawyer don turn to trader. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 3:12pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Everything was hashed out on the first page, but you seem pleased with your perceived victory. Lol Cute, |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by MyJoe: 8:35pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian: I knew you would ask me that. Well, we have to refer to him/she/it somehow, don’t we? He, she, it, I am perfectly comfortable with in reference to the supreme being. My choice of “he” is not a carryover from a Judeo-Christian background. It is simply because I am comfortable with that. When I write I normally in English, I don’t write he/she since I consider that clumsy. I simply use one. To cater to societal sensibilities, I choose to alternate he and her throughout the piece. I don’t capitalise the “he” for God because I don’t think such exercises are necessary. I write God instead of god in reference to the supreme being, not because I see the capitalisation as being of any consequence, but because English grammar or its convention demands that. African traditional religions have played little or no role in my life. But, yeah, they need to be talked about considering the fact they are the font et origo from which much of the superstition you see around came. You see a Pentecostal Christian who says nothing else besides binding the devil and killing witches, that’s all from the old indigenous beliefs. It was African traditional religion that made our minds fertile for the foreign religions to take roots and prosper on. ATR may not be in your face like the imported religions, but it lives on in their hearts without their even knowing it – the superstitions, the high-decibel mode of worship and prayers, the power dancing, etc. By the way, I am not putting down ATR or the foreign religions, just stating facts. The religions have their good and bad points. The indigenous African ideas of “him” are different from the Abrahamic ones.Africans see him/she/it – note you don’t have the three as separate words as we have in English in many African languages, even in some European languages such as French you have the same word for “him” and “it” – as a Most High who is far away. So they look for lesser “gods” who can be bothered. I don’t know about the usefulness of these gods but their view of the Most High resonates with me in a way.When something is out of your control, for instance, you “leave it for God”, not because you actually expect God to handle it, but because the matter is out of your control. When something good happens, you “thank God”, not because you know God did it, but because you realise your own efforts didn’t solely bring it about. I would think the necessity of God is obvious and undeniable. I recognise that an entity has to exist as a first cause. I have not resolved the question of whether this entity is separate from his creation or is simply an essence that pervades everything. I lean towards the former view, although I often think the answer would be somewhere in between. Doesn’t matter really. I don’t believe anybody can “prove” God to another person and I have never laboured to do it. There is nothing we can take to the lab. For example, there is a pattern to the things I see around me every day that convinces me that there is a mind at work behind everything. That is a considered statement but it might mean nothing to you. You ask about order, but, of course, there is order, even in the chaos we see around. I mean, you say there is disorder somewhere in the universe, but have those disorders brought about any disorder to the whole? Alexander Pope particularly captures this point well in his poem “Essays on Man”. You are a scientist and would know the laws of physics – that is order. The plant being habitable is order – bring the earth a little closer to the sun and we turn to steak, if not ashes; take it a little further away and we freeze. I have heard the counterargument – the deviations and aberrations we see; for example, birth defects. But these are merely deviations from the order, so rather than defeat the argument that there is order, they reinforce it. When you talk of order you have to look at the whole. There are people who claim to have spiritual experiences and I think some of them are believable. The "supernatural" does interact with the physical. No, there is nothing you can take to the lab, so I won’t belabour it. Such “experiences” are, I think, meant for the person experiencing them so the matter is way too subjective for anyone to try to “prove” to someone else. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by MyJoe: 8:37pm On Aug 04, 2012 |
Martian:I have explained what loving God comprises for me – loving my neighbour. No, I don’t believe anyone has all the answers. I certainly don’t believe I do. There is no way I can be prejudiced against anyone’s beliefs as long as they are peaceful and respect others. If you try to recruit me that is when I have something religious to talk with you – not to push my beliefs but to interrogate yours. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 1:16am On Aug 05, 2012 |
MyJoe: The earth's orbit is perfect for us to survive and it just happens to be "orderly" from our viewpoint. You say I have to look at the whole but you are not. You're infering for the whole universe based on the habitability of this planet but ignore the other planets that are devoid of life. You are implying that the purpose of the universe is to contain life instead of life being one of the possibilities or probabilities. We have eight planets in this solar system but only one contains life as we know it. Does this point to design or just the laws of nature as described by physics? Birth defects are deviation of what a human looks like but does the existence of the human point to a particular orderly plan? Does human physiology suggest purposeful and orderly design, or does it align with scientific theories that don't need the existence of a designer? 1 Like |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by DeepSight(m): 11:36am On Aug 05, 2012 |
Martian: Fair comment, but life could not spontaneously arise ANYWHERE in this universe without pre-existent life. This is science, y'konw? Spontaneous generation, as an idea, was debunked by Louis Pasteur eons ago. It is surprising that people who imagine that they have a tendency to science (I say "imagine" because its obvious they actually have an aversion to clear science) ignore this is arriving at voodooistic and nonsensical postulations and assumptions. We have eight planets in this solar system but only one contains life as we know it. Does this point to design or just the laws of nature as described by physics? Reality works with logic. If you were going to create a planet with life, you could not do so in a void. You would need a star to circulate it about. That star in coming to existence would have other satellites. Same star could not exist in a void. It would need a galaxy. Same galaxy would have to be attached to clusters in a universe. In short, yes, you would need an entire universe to create life even on one physical planet. Birth defects are deviation of what a human looks like but does the existence of the human point to a particular orderly plan? Ehen? Ehen? So ya brain doesn't disclose order? I repeat: you have not read nada about the human brain. If you have, you will not say these things. Does human physiology suggest purposeful and orderly design, [/quote] I repeat: YET AGAIN: you have not read nada about the human brain. If you have, you will not say these things. or does it align with scientific theories that don't need the existence of a designer? And in your mind, all those "scientific" laws that make such possible spring from where? Nothingness? Do you remember ex nihilo nihil fit? I really really wonder if you think about the things you say. The fact that you can hold such notions for years is particularly distressing. At no point do you pause to see the inherent absurdities. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by Nobody: 12:18pm On Aug 05, 2012 |
Deep Sight: Repeat one more time. |
Re: “ Love Your Neighbour” And Martian’s Antithesis by MyJoe: 5:42pm On Aug 06, 2012 |
Martian:Right. From our viewpoint. Martian:I am. I wrote this: MyJoe: Martian:I am inferring for the whole universe based on the whole universe. I am not ignoring them planets devoid of life or the ones you say are chaotic. I said there may be a purpose to their chaos in relation to the whole. I don’t know. You have not argued, much less, demonstrated, that the whole is chaotic. So why do you insist on using the chaos in isolated planets as the basis for analysis? Martian:I’m not sure I have done that. I don’t know what the purpose of the universe is. I actually share your view that life on earth is just one of the possibilities or probabilities. Martian:The earth seems to align perfectly with our needs. As for the other planets, I don’t know their purposes. I agree a lot of things seem purposeless, even chaotic. But, still, that is just “a lot of things”. Human physiology does suggest a purposeful and orderly design. It will be interesting to hear your reasons for thinking otherwise. Martian:I don’t think there is any scientific finding that has demonstrated the non-necessity of a designer. ____ And what I said about the subjectivity of personal spiritual experiences earlier should not be taken to mean that there are no reproducible spiritual “things”. |
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