₦airaland Forum

Maximus69:
(1) The TRUE Gospel is about God's Kingdom that will be established here on earth {Matthew 6:10 compared Psalms 37:9-11} you guys going to live in heaven or Hell fire

If there is no hell fire, why did Jesus mention everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels in the following verse;

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)

Maximus69:
(2)The Holy Spirit is God's active force, but Arabian mentality will not allow you to think straight. When Peter declared that Jesus is the son of God, who did Jesus said spoke through Peter? Matthew 16:17
Sorry Mr Muhammadan it's God's Holy Spirit that spoke through Peter, that's why Satan also spoke immediately through the same Peter {Matthew 16:21-23} Satan was so stupid that he thought perfect Jesus {God's only begotten son} won't be able to distinguish between the utterances of God through the power of his Holy Spirit{Active force} and the utterances motivated by Satan's worldly thinking!

Matthew 16:17 says:

"Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven"

Where is the mention of Holy Spirit in this verse?Jesus said it was Father (not Holy Spirit) that revealed it to Peter.

Stylishly, you want to dodge my question .
My question is this; Can God's ACTIVE FORCE SPEAK and HEAR (John 16:12-13) ? If your answer is yes, then you have confirmed the 3rd person of Holy Trinity ( God the Holy Spirit) because an ACTIVE FORCE cannot hear and speak since it is NOT a person. Speaking and hearing is a quality of a person; NOT an active force

There are two dilemma in front you; It is either you accept the spirit of truth made mention in John 16:12-13 as God the Holy Spirit (3rd person of Holy Trinity) OR as a human being.

Another evidence that the spirit of truth made mention in John 16 is a PERSON and not an active force is revealed when Jesus was using "HE"

However, when that one* comes, the spirit of the truth,+ HE will guide you into all the truth, for HE will not speak of his own initiative, but what HE hears HE will speak, and HE will declare to you the things to come.+ (John 16:12-13 NWT).

If it was God's ACTIVE FORCE, the pronoun should be "IT" instead of "HE"

So we have two types of evidence to prove that the spirit of truth is a person;
1. The quality of hearing and speaking.
2. The pronoun "HE" which appears five times.

@ maximus69

This is from Wikipedia


Tablighi Jamaat (Tablīghī Jamā‘at; lit. Society for spreading faith) is a non-political global missionary movement that focuses on urging Muslims to return to Practicing Islam,[5][6] and particularly in matters of ritual, dress, and personal behavior.[7] The organisation is estimated to have between 12 million[8] and 150 million adherents[3] (the majority living in South Asia[9]), and a presence in somewhere between 150[8] and 200 countries.[3] It has been called "one of the most influential religious movements in 20th century Islam".[10]

2009 Malaysian Annual Congregation of Tablighi Jamaat Sepang Selangor, Malaysia
2009 Malaysian Annual Congregation of Tablighi Jamaat
Sepang Selangor, Malaysia
Founder
Muhammad Ilyas Kandhlawi
Regions with significant populations
India
Pakistan
Bangladesh
[1]
United Kingdom
Indonesia
[2]
Malaysia
Singapore
South Africa
Sri Lanka
Turkey
Yemen
Kyrgyzstan
Russia
Somalia
Nigeria
United States
Canada
Mexico
China ( Hong Kong)
France
[3][4]
Germany
[3]
Tanzania
Brazil
Philippines
West Indies
Qatar
Jordan
Mauritania
Morocco
Algeria
Azerbaijan
Religions
Sunni Islam
Scriptures
Quran, Hadith, Sunnat.
Languages
Liturgical: Arabic
In Bangladesh: Bengali
In India: Urdu
In Pakistan: Urdu
In the diaspora: In UK: Respective regional languages
The movement was founded in 1927 by Muhammad Ilyas al-Kandhlawi in India in accordance to the teachings and practices that take place in The Prophet's Mosque and Ashabus Suffah Tabligh.[11][12] by sending students of the religion to learn the religion around the world. Its stated primary aim is spiritual reformation of Islam by reaching out to Muslims across social and economic spectra and working at the grassroots level, to bring them in line with the group's understanding of Islam.[3][13] The teachings of Tabligh Jamaat are expressed in "Six Principles" (Kalimah (Declaration of faith), Salah (Prayer), Ilm-o-zikr (Knowledge), Ikraam-e-Muslim (Respect of Muslim), Ikhlas-e-Niyyat (Sincerity of intention), Dawat-o-Tableegh (Proselytizaton)).[14] Tablighi Jamaat believes that Muslims are in a constant state of spiritual Jihad in the sense of fight against evil, the weapon of choice is Dawah (proselytization) and that battles are won or lost in the "hearts of men."

Tablighi Jamaat began as an offshoot of the Deobandi movement, and a response to perceived deteriorating moral values and a supposed negligence of aspects of Islam.[15] It expanded from a local to a national to an international movement.

Tablighi Jamaat denies any affiliation in politics and fiqh (jurisprudence),[16] focusing instead on the Quran and Hadith,[16][17] and states that it rejects violence as a means for evangelism,[18] (although some members have become involved in politics in Pakistan). Tablighi Jamaat has claimed to avoid electronic media and in favor of personal communication for proselytising, although prominent Tablighi personalities such as Tariq Jameel are featured on an extensive range of Internet videos and often appear on TV.

Tablighi Jamaat attracted significant public and media attention when it announced plans for the largest mosque in Europe to be built in London, United Kingdom.

Maximus69:
Your problem is spiritual deafness!

Now listen carefully and instead of using the mindset of those your Arabian hypocrites, try not to be biased!

Jesus warned that false Christians {they're NOT Christians but misinformed individuals who only feels like making a showoff with the name that has now become so popular and accept} will surface! Matthew 13:24-30

Regarding small portion Jesus clearly said many were called but few will find the way! Matthew 7:13-14

Jesus simply said with NO ADDITION ;
I pray also for THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE IN ME through their message (John 17:20).
Do all other Christians not believe in Jesus through the message of the Gospel ?
You will notice that I did not include the Muslims and the Mormons despite the fact that they also believe in Jesus; but it was NOT through the message of the Gospel.
So your argument amounts to nothing because all other Christians also believe in Jesus through the message of the Gospel. So there is no way you can harmonize this very passage (John 17:20-23) with Matthew 7:21-23. Either of the two passages must be false. Take it or leave it

Maximus69:
Jesus was talking to his first century Jewish followers regarding the promise of the helper and he told them "if i did not leave the helper will not come".

Hellooooo my guy, no be Mr Muhammad that place dey talk ooooooooo because Muhammad was born 570 years later and by then all those to whom Jesus made the promised were gone!
Moreover if Jesus promised that someone will come after him and it's ONLY Apostle John that recorded that part, how come you Muslims don't agree with the opening words of the gospel written by this same Apostle John?

My guy, me i tey for this false religion called Islam pass you and i know sey na anywhere them fit chuk head to support their religion them go face, so their religion no fit stand without loopholes!

So it is God's Holy Spirit that helped them to remain United and complete the writing of the Bible during the time when the Apostles {pioneers of Christianity} were still alive, but after their death Satan established falsehood known today as the Catholic Church {Matthew 13:25} and that's what Muhammad knew as Christians, before he started fabricating stories of falsehood!

So it was the Holy Spirit that will SPEAK what ever he HEARS ? HEAR FROM WHO ? SPEAK TO WHO ?

By the way, you believe that Holy Spirit is an ACTIVE FORCE (Genesis 1:2 NWT) and not a person that can hear and speak. Or have you suddenly believed in Trinity ?

Maximus69:
Jehovah's Witnesses are the true worshipers of God who never had the opportunity of coming out to declare the truth since the death of the Apostles! The Catholics oppressed them through the dark ages so that they remain in the hidden, but when America declared freedom of speech, expression and worship that's the time they were liberated from false religions and they began gathering together as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers just as Jesus {God's only begotten son} prayed! John 17:20-23

Notice that the oneness lasted for less than two centuries after Jesus left but according to Jesus' prayers this ones are putting faith in the things written by those UNITED first century Christians {John 17:20} that's why they're able to unite as you are seeing today!

Jesus prayed and Muhammad claims to be sent by the same God who sent Jesus, i can't believe this Muhammad was sent by that same God if his followers aren't united as a family!
So i know there are ORIGINAL and FAKE Muslims, instead of arguing, why not just present that original group claiming Muslims that are like one family whose bond can't be broken by RACISM?

I have told you several times about Tabligh brothers with large beard and jumping trousers that normally traveled from villages to villages for the work of preaching. But you turn deaf hear to this. Why can't you go to Google now and type Tabligh janmah under Wikipedia and read about their activities.

Maximus69:
Jesus took part in the creation work just as Adam also took part in the [b]PRO[/b]creation work. But both of them have a Person before whom they're accountable, Jesus was the one acting in line with all the instructions found @ Genesis 1:1-31. "Let there be" is the command from the Almighty God {JEHOVAH} to his mighty spirit son {Jesus}. Exodus 6:2-3, Isaiah 9:6

You are yet to provide an evidence that Jesus acted on those series of command given by Jehovah in Genesis 1:1-31. I have read your reference verses(Exodus 6:2-3 & Isaiah 9:6). They say nothing about the topic in question. But if you believe they do say it. Quote them and explain how they do.

But I have already given you the evidence that Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah (not Jesus) that need to be RESTED and REFRESHED Himself on the seventh day (Exodus 31:17). So I am expecting you to nullify this very evidence BEFORE saying anything.

Maximus69:
Adam was to create humans through the power bestow on him as he continued bearing children,this may sound somehow but think of how a man will feel if he is impotent or unable to get his wife pregnant. Instead of observers who would have agreed that the ability to procreate is of the Almighty, majority will turn him to a laughing stock as if the power belongs to him,the same is applicable to a woman who finds it hard to conceive!

So both Jesus and Adam were given the power to do whatever they did. 1Corinthians 15:45

Although all other things created were the handiwork of Jesus{Proverbs 8:22-31} under the direction and supervision of his God and Father {John 20:17},

We understand clearly how God employed Adam and his children to participate in the act of procreation; i:e through sexual activity. So how EXACTLY did Jehovah employ Jesus as a master worker during the creation of heavens and earth ? If you are unable to explain, then there is NOTHING to compare.
Of course after sexual activity that bring about procreation, we need to be rested and refreshed our selves. So in similar manner, Jesus also need to be rested and refreshed himself if he truly engage in general creation of all other things. But this is not the case. So where is the similarity ? How exactly did Jehovah use him?

Maximus69:
Walahi Talahi you're the funniest clown ever Abdulgaffar, sorry to say this!

Haba!

Jesus himself said

¤There will be false Christs in his name {self acclaimed redeemers for all mankind claiming successors of Jesus} and many will follow them! Matthew 24:5

If Jesus knew that many among those who believe in him will be false Christians(Matthew 7:21-23), then why setting a COMPLETE UNITY as a prophecy that must be fulfilled so that entire world will know that God has sent his only begotten son (John 17:20-23) ? Remember Jesus did not say a small portion (like 8.5 millions) but he said ; I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL OF THEM (about 2.3 billions) MAY BE ONE (John 17:20-21)

Maximus69:
Well for your information, Your Muhammad is the leader of all such ones because he claimed that Jesus said someone will come after him! John 14:16

If no one was coming after Jesus, then who is that very person that will SPEAK what ever he HEAR as the following verses indicate ?

" I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He HEARS He will SPEAK; and He will tell you things to come."(John 16:12-13)

Maximus69:
¤There will be countless false Christians in the world! Matthew 7:21-23

Then he prayed that his own TRUE followers will become one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers! John 13:34-35, 17:20-23

All these religions {including your Islam} have failed so woefully to make their followers become that ONE big family.

And you're seeing over 8.5 million Jehovah's Witnesses fulfilling that purpose, yet you're still expecting misinformed churchgoers {false Christians} to be in union with Jesus' true followers, after seeing people from different Nationalities, Cultures and Traditions forming one family in the name of JEHOVAH!

Because this same Jesus said just as it happened in the day of Noah when majority are not observant enough! Luke 17:26
Now the world is about 9billions and just 8.5 million which is less than ratio 1~1, 000 have formed that global family that Jesus prayed for and you're still expecting something else!

Sorry is your name Sir, i'm really sorry for you!

You are only less than 200 years old. You don't know what would happen in the future. Do you have any strong evidence to prove that such harmony has not once existed before among the Catholics, the Muslims and others ?
Besides, I have told you several times that you can not judge any faith base on the behavior of its adherents. Many are religionist by BIRTH. Just compare the number of Muslims who observed their daily prayers in the mosque during time of Ramadan with number of those that observed them at other times. What a huge difference ! So how could you expect such weak Muslims to derive spiritual benefits from their prayer ?
So the truthfulness or falsehood of a faith can only be known by studying what is written in their scriptures; not by looking at its adherents

Maximus69:
Mr Abdulgaffar,

Please deal with your friends anyhow you deem fit to convince them that Muhammad is God's prophet so that they can accept him and his teachings.
The problem you're having with them has nothing to do with us, i've presented the simplest, easiest and most efficient logic to discover the one and only true religion. But you want to stick to the religion that Arabians are propagating. So preach your religion to them without bringing Jehovah's Witnesses into your arguments.
For your information, all of you are worshipping the same God, a lazy God whose effectiveness can't be felt if observing his worshippers!

Our own JEHOVAH has
¤Theories
¤Practical Applications and
¤Benefits

All of you can SEE the efficiency of our God, as he is able to catch people from different countries, cultures and traditions {Isaiah 2:1-4} bringing us together as one happy global family of peace-loving worshippers! John 17:20-23

So deal with your friends as you argue argue and argue for nothing, while our own God is working out {John 5:17} what all eyes can SEE! Matthew 5:14-16

Jesus prayed as follows;

"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that ALL OF THEM MAY BE ONE, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.I have given them the glory that you gave me, that THEY MAY BE ONE as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to COMPLETE UNITY to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. (John 17:20-23)"

So if your god is not a lazy one but effective and efficient, why did he fail to answer that prayer of his only begotten son as he ALWAYS answered him (John 11:42) ? Or are you in complete unity with Trinitarians? Or are you in complete unity with oneness Pentecostal ? Or are you in complete unity with Catholics ?

If by being in COMPLETE UNITY that the entire world will know that your god has sent his only begotten son ( as stated in those verses), then do you still believe that your god has sent his son to the entire world (see Matthew 15:24) by not answering this very prayer?

enilove:
Op , is a Creator not a God ?

According to your Quran is Jesus not a Creator coAllah SWT said:

وَرَسُولًا إِلٰى بَنِىٓ إِسْرٰٓءِيلَ أَنِّى قَدْ جِئْتُكُمْ بِئَايَةٍ مِّنْ رَّبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّىٓ أَخْلُقُ لَكُمْ مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنْفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًۢا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْىِ الْمَوْتٰى بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِى بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِى ذٰلِكَ لَءَايَةً لَّكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُّؤْمِنِينَ
"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers."
(QS. Aal-i-Imraan 3: Verse 49)

Which prophet , man or science has ever created a living thing with breathe of life from non living things ?
As advanced as people rate science , has it been able to give sight or eyes to the blind ?

Jesus did all these and much more . This makes him God , since he could create a bird from clay and raised the dead which had rotten or decayed.

Op , your problem is lack of spiritual understanding.

Even the old testaments called Jesus a God :

Isaiah 7:14 KJV
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:23 KJV
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Finally , to be 'one' with God means to be in the same level with God . Jesus said this severally that he and his Father are ONE. So , stop accusing Paul of the originator of calling Jesus a God.
There is no book of book of the new testament that did not testify to the truth that Jesus is a God .

A lion would always give birth to a lion and not a goat , simple as that.

The verse of Qur'an you quoted says ;

" I (Jesus) breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah"

So it is not by power of Jesus. It is by power of God . Jesus himself has confessed; by myself I can do NOTHING (John 5:30). Therefore, that miracle does not make him to be God.


I don't have problem with biblical verses that seem to prove Jesus divinity. The problem I am having with the Bible is inconsistency.
For example, consider Luke 6:12 which says "Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD". If Jesus is God and God is one, then the verse should read ; " Jesus continued all night in prayer to the FATHER". Of course, if Father was used in place of God, the verse will still retain its original meaning and doctrine of Trinity will remain undisturbed.

But by saying Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD, the Bible has clearly distinguished Jesus from God. Pls do you really get my point?
So stop accusing me with lack of spiritual understanding.

@ Emusan

Here is another one for you;

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all (1st Corinthians 15:27-28)


Who put everything under Christ ? Is it not God ?Then how could Christ be the same God that put everything under him ? Remember, the verse did NOT say; Father put everything under Christ.

Again, Jesus will be made subject to who? God of course. Then how can Jesus be the same God that he would later be made subject to ? Remember that God is one not two.

Emusan:
Other verses dispute indeed....

Just take any two you like out of those five verses and tell us how they do not dispute Jesus' deity

Emusan:
You can do that yourself...

You are in best position to do it because you are the one that claimed it has been done many times.

It is very easy to lie but very difficult to defend it

Emusan:
Were you not the same person who quoted John 1:1,14 to prove A=B, B=C then C=A?

This is my conclusion:

As you can see, there is no way we can reconcile John 1:1,14 (which teaches that Jesus is God ) with other verses of the Bible that dispute this claim.

Emusan:
Only if you can go through your previous posts

Assist by quoting a reference

Emusan:
It has been done many times here, yet you keep repeating it...what should that be called?

If it has been done many times, then quickly do copy and paste

UceeGod:
All those verses you think contradict Jesus' deity are actually proof of His deity as GOD ALMIGHTY.

Pls explain how they prove Jesus' deity

UceeGod:
You only choose to believe what the devil placed on your carnal mind and have refused to humble yourself enough to allow God through His Spirit to awaken your dead spirit so you can properly understand those Bible passages.

Stop using Holy Spirit as an excuse. If the Holy Spirit did not guide me to believe in Jesus divinity simply because I did not humble myself enough to believe in the entire Bible, what of JWs that believe in the entire Bible ? Why did Holy Spirit fail to guide them to believe in Jesus divinity ?

Emusan:
The same confused post all the times despite different school of thought you've been taken through in the past

What is confusing you about those verses which prove that Jesus is not God ?

Which school of thought you've taken me through in the past ?

If you are very sure of your self, take your time to nullify all those evidence

THE PROBLEM OF "WHO IS THE CREATOR ?"



Unlike the Trinitarians, the Jehovah witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God. However, like other Christian denominations, they also believe that God created everything THROUGH Jesus Christ . They believe that God did not create anything EXCEPT Jesus (the only begotten son : John 3:16) . That is to say: Jehovah created Jesus, and then, acting on the instruction of Jehovah, Jesus created all other things including the heavens and the earth. So according to their claim, Jesus is the immediate Creator of all other things.


That God created everything through Jesus Christ is no where to be found in the Gospel of Matthew, Mark and Luke. It is only found in the books written by Paul and John;


"Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.( 1st Corinthians 8:6)".


For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH him and for him ( Colossians 1:16).


THROUGH him ALL THINGS WERE MADE ; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)


But is it really true that God assigned the creation of all other things, including the heavens and earth, to Jesus christ ? Let see what God Almighty say about this matter ;


"This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: 'I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF (WHO WAS WITH ME ?) (Isaiah 44:24 KJV, NWT)


"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)".


It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. MY OWN HANDS stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts (Isaiah 45:12)


"For My HAND made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD ( Isaiah 66:2)


As you can see from above, Paul and John proclaimed that God assigned the creation of all other things to Jesus Christ. But God Almighty declare that He created all things ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF, BY HIS OWN HANDS AND NOBODY WAS WITH HIM.


What better words do we want God to use before we can believe that He created the heavens and the earth without the assistance of anybody ?



If a man hires a contractor as his agent to build a house, could the man say that he built the house “ALL ALONE” and "BY HIS OWN HANDS" without lying? So could God Almighty have lied about creating the heavens and the earth by His own hands while He actually used another distinct person as His agent to actually do the creation for Him?

Is it even logically right to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person other than Himself ?
Let consider the following questions;

1. How do we know that God really exist ? Was it not through His act of creation ?

2. Why does God deserve our worship ? Was it not because He is our creator ?

Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation we acknowledged His existence and through it He deserve our worship ?


Honestly, if God really assigned the creation of all things to another person, then "all what that make God to be God" has been given out to that person. Of course, this is impossible because God has declared that He would NEVER give out His glory to another person (Isaiah 48:11, 42:8-9). Yet there is no any God's glory that is greater than the glory of General Creation.


Furthermore, you will agree with me that the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator (Revelation 14:7) . Now if somebody else other than God is our immediate Creator, then that person also deserve our worship. Yet, only God deserve to be worship (Matthew 4:10). This is exactly the reason why God would never assigned the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".


So apart from Isaiah 44:24, 48:13 and others which make us to know that God did not assign the act of general creation to anybody other than Himself, we also logically know that such kind of assignment is not true because it would be equivalent to God's giving out His Glory to another; something He promised never to do.


But despite all this exegesis, the Jehovah witnesses still insist that God created all other things through Jesus Christ and they even cite Proverbs 8:22-30 to buttress their claim.


But if Jesus was really the master worker ( see Proverbs 8:30 NWT) that Jehovah used to create ALL OTHER THINGS, then all the series of commands causing the heavens, the earth, the light, the animals and the plants into existence should be coming directly from JESUS' MOUTH

But unfortunately, this is not so !


See below what happened during the time of creation;


Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24

1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."

1:9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.

1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,

1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."

1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.


As you can see from above; at the beginning, the heavens, the earth, the animals and plants were created by the series of commands coming out from GOD'S MOUTH: NOT FROM JESUS' MOUTH


So how exactly did God employ Jesus as a master worker of creation ?

Some of the JWs answer this question by saying that Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work (Proverbs 8:30 NWT)

But If truly Jehovah was only issuing the order and it was Jesus that actually performed the work, then who supposed to be refreshed and rested from all his work ? Was it not Jesus ?


But see again what the following verses say;

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE (Genesis 2:2-3)"

"It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED and was REFRESHED (Exodus 31:17)".


So why did Jehovah have to REST and REFRESH Himself on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work and Jehovah was only giving the order ?

In conclusion, Jesus did NOTHING because it was Jehovah that gave those series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that need to rest and refresh Himself on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 31:17, 20:11).


This is exactly the confirmation of God's word when God said ALL ALONE , by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS (Isaiah 48:13) did I create the heavens and the earth.


Hence, Proverbs 8:22-30 can only be referring to the wisdom or master plan firstly produced by God before the actual creation of things just like an architect firstly produce a building plan before the actual building of the house. So it was this wisdom or master plan that was personified in this very passage.


Therefore, Paul and John completely got it wrong by asserting that all other things were created through Jesus Christ (1st Corinthians 8:6, Colossians 1:16-17, John 1:3).

No wonder that Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke did not mention such thing.

Have you now agreed with me that the problem of "who is God ? and who is the Creator ?" are yet to be resolved in the world of Christianity if we accept that Paul and John were truly inspired by God to write all what they have written.


This is a FOUNDATIONAL problem that can never be overlooked. As we all know, any beautiful mansion that is erected on a very weak foundation is bound to collapse sooner or later !

THE PROBLEM OF "WHO IS GOD ?"



John1:1 declare:" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Here we see that THE WORD = GOD

John 1:14 says :"The Word became flesh, and made His dwelling among us." Here we see again that JESUS = THE WORD.

Simple logic declares that if A=B and B=C then A=C. Therefore, since JESUS = THE WORD and THE WORD = GOD, then JESUS = GOD . This is the commonest biblical evidence used by Trinitarian Christians to prove that Jesus is God just like his Father.


Since we have seen how John 1:1,14 established that Jesus is God, let us now investigate whether the remaining part of the Bible support this claim or not;


1. Jesus was praying to the Father and he said;
"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent (John 17:3)" .

If Jesus himself was referring to another person (i:e the Father) as the "only true God" , then how could Jesus be God ? If Jesus did not use the word "only", then hopefully the Christians might still want to argue that Jesus is also another true God just like his Father. However, the words "only true God" used by Jesus in reference to the Father alone implies that apart from the Father, any other person is not a true God.


2. Also Mark 10:17-18 says as follows ; "Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”.


If Jesus is God, why did he reject being called “good” and then submit that all goodness belongs only to God?



3. Furthermore, in John 14:1, Jesus said “let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me”.

Remember Jesus did NOT say: "you believe in Father, believe also in me". But he said : "you believe in God, believe also in me”.

Therefore, if Jesus is God, why did he clearly distinguish himself from God?

Similar case occur in Luke 6:12 which read as follows ; "He (Jesus) went out to the mountain side to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God" .

If Jesus is God and God is one, then the verse should read ; " Jesus continued all night in prayer to the FATHER".
Of course, if Father was used in place of God, the verse will still retain its original meaning and doctrine of Trinity will remain undisturbed.

But by saying Jesus continued all night in prayer to GOD, the Bible has clearly distinguished Jesus from God.


4. Again, in Matthew 24:36, Jesus said; “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but ONLY THE FATHER”.

If Jesus is God, why did he confess his lack of knowledge about the Day of Judgment and then submit that the knowledge of that day belongs only to the Father? Can God be lacking anything as regard to knowledge?


5. Lastly, in John 20:17, Jesus was reported to have said; "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

If Jesus is God Almighty, then which God was he referring to when he said ; "my God and your God"? Can God Almighty have another God?


Of course, if Jesus was God in heaven before his coming to the earth, then he has to retain his divine nature on the surface of the earth because the nature of God is unchangeable (Malachi 3:6). Therefore, arguing that the reason why Jesus said " my God and your God" is because he was still a human being does not make any sense.

In fact, according to the theory of hypo-static union, Jesus was both God and man on the surface of the earth. Hence, if truly Jesus was God during his stay on the earth, then he must not have another God. But John 20:17 clearly says Jesus have God. Therefore, Jesus cannot be God because it is totally unreasonable for one God to have another God.



As you can see, there is no way we can reconcile John 1:1,14 (which teaches that Jesus is God ) with other verses of the Bible that dispute this claim.

So what about billions and millions of people that have lived and died before the establishment of JW organization that is not even up to 200 years ? Did God not love them ?

Maximus69:
They got it wrong but Muhammad an Arabian with no connection of any kind to sacred secrets got it right!

My friend, i've told you it's not by arguing arguing arguing for what you and i wasn't present during the occurrence neither do we know those who penned down the Bible or Quran in person.

So the only way to resolve this is by that simple logic!

THEORY: all that's written no matter how difficult it is to understand must be accepted but partially since we're not there! 1Corinthians 13:12

PRACTICAL APPLICATION: how to put it to good use so that everyone from any part of this planet can worship the author shoulder to shoulder as brothers and sisters in the same way! Isaiah 2:1-4

BENEFIT: visible achievements of those claiming worshipers of this author even though others still feel what was written sounds stupid. James 2:18-26

For your information anything written or spoken about the one who can't be seen remains anonymous as in unbelievable until it's benefits are seen!

That's why Jesus said "let your light shine" {Matthew 5:14-16} so that everyone can see what you've got and what you're saying that's not seen. It's impossible to keep pestering people over something that's of no benefits.

Jehovah's Witnesses have achieved so much globally so the book they're carrying {Bible} is 100 times greater than the Arabian Quran therefore all the ranting of your Arabian scoffers is futile! Isaiah 54:17

Let them produce fruits befitting God's people with this their Islam instead of killing people all because these ones refused to join them in the worship of their Allah!

God Almighty has given each and everyone one of us a brain. So God can never ask us to believe in something that would contradict the dictates of this very brain. Honestly Christianity contradict the dictates of our brain ;

"God Almighty who says: An innocent and righteous human being MUST NOT be deliberately killed (Exodus 20:13, Matthew 19:18)" LATER CONTRADICT HIMSELF by saying: "An innocent and righteous human being MUST be deliberately killed on the cross of Calvary before the humanity can be entitled to His salvation"

Think very well about the issue of salvation through Jesus crucifixion. It is repugnant to our logical reasoning.

In Islam, the ends cannot justify the means. It is only in Christianity that the ends justify the means. Therefore, even if the foundational THEORY IS DEVILISH, no problem in as much as the BENEFIT can be seen.That is for Christianity; not for Islam.

This is the reason why God would never assigned the act of creation to Jesus;

1. The reasonable response of a creature is to worship his creator ; "Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water (Revelation 14:7).

2. Therefore, if Jesus was truly our immediate creator, then he deserve our worship.

3. But only God deserve to be worshipped (Matthew 4:10) and Jesus is not God( John 17:3, Mark 10:17-18 etc)

4. Hence, Jesus must not be our creator

Honestly, it is a very simple analysis. But you just close eyes and turn deaf ear to the truth.

Maximus69:
Remember that Jesus is the one we believed was doing all the work while JEHOVAH is issuing the orders.
Of course, Jehovah feels the condition of his creatures and always EMPATHISE with us! Psalms 103:13-14

It's not JEHOVAH that's feeling what's there but he's empathising the condition of his only begotten son who had worked for so long in the creation work. For instance, JEHOVAH feels the pains of domestic animals used for farming in the fields{Exodus 23:12}
Did you notice that Jehovah feels for common animals like bulls and donkeys?

So it's appropriate for him to feel the laborious works his only begotten son went through all just to please his father, that's why God declared that everything Jesus was used to create all belongs to this wonderful son! 1:15-16

Psalm 103:13-14 and Exodus 23:12 say as follow;

"As a father shows mercy to his sons, Jehovah has shown mercy to those who fear him.+ For he well knows how we are formed, +Remembering that we are dust.(Psalm 103:13-14 NWT)"


"Six days you are to do your work; but on the seventh day, you are to cease from your labor, in order that your bull and your donkey may rest and the son of your slave girl and the foreign resident may refresh themselves (Exodus 23:12 NWT)".


So where is it written in all these verses that Jehovah EMPATHISE and FEEL THE PAIN ?
Honestly, you are not feeling ashamed. You fail gallantly to prove that Jesus is the creator and now you're looking for a way to reverse your FAILURE.

Even if we assumed that JEHOVAH truly empathise and feel for His creatures , how does all these relate to the fact that He RESTED and REFRESHED Himself on the seventh day after performing the work of creation for six days (Genesis 2:2-3, Exodus 31:17, 20:11, Hebrews 4:4) ?

You don't have any option othan to accept that Paul and John got it WRONG by asserting that Jehovah created ALL OTHER THINGS through Jesus Christ ( John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17, 1st Corinthians 8:6).
No wonder that Matthew, Mark and Luke never wrote such nonsense!

Maximus69:
Instead of jumping to conclusions, why not ask questions and wait for the answers?

When you hear the word rest, do you think it connotes tiredness that's peculiar to fleshy creatures?

OK do you agree that God was tired so that he now needed to rest?

Come on, what that simply means is that all what he had in mind to create is complete, that's why the Bible says "God saw everything and it was PERFECT!"

Perfect means excellent, so the word rest here simply means a stop to further production work Sir. NOT that God the almighty spirit being got tired!

The verse Genesis 2:2-3 may not connotes that God was tired. However, it connotes that God has done a very serious work during the act of creation that He needs to REST on the seventh day

Here is another verse to prove that Jesus did nothing; it was Jehovah that performed everything to the extent that He needs to REFRESH Himself; see the verse below from your NWT Bible

"It is an enduring sign between me and the people of Israel,+ for in six days Jehovah made the heavens and the earth and on the seventh day he RESTED and REFRESHED himself.’”+ (Exodus 31:17 NWT).

Again, why did Jehovah have to REST and REFRESH Himself on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work and Jehovah was giving the command ?

Jehovah gave series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that need to REFRESH Himself on the seventh day (Exodus 31:17). So Jesus did nothing.


Have you now seen the confirmation of God's word when he said ALL ALONE and by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS(Isaiah 48:13) ?

Honestly Paul and John got it wrong by saying that God created all other things through Jesus Christ.

Trinitarians missed the way by accepting Jesus as God. But the JWs missed the way by accepting Jesus as the Creator. So only little difference is between both of you.

This is not a trivial matter because it is a FOUNDATIONAL problem. As you know, a very beautiful mansion that is erected on a very weak foundation is bound to collapse sooner or later.

Maximus69:
@Bolded

That's where you missed it!

Someone is issuing the orders and the other is doing the work.
JEHOVAH is the first person while Jesus is the second acting on the instructions of the owner of the work so if you carefully read and meditate on the account @ Genesis chapter 1 you'll understand!

If Jehovah was the one issuing the order and Jesus doing the work, who supposed to be tired and need to rest from all his work ? Was it not Jesus ?

But see what Genesis 2:2-3 says

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE.

So why did Jehovah have to REST on the seventh day if it was Jesus that was doing the work ?

Again, look at the last part of the these verses

" Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE"

Who rested from all His work according to this very verse ?
Jesus or Jehovah ?


This is the final conclusion;

Jehovah gave series of commands (Genesis 1:3-26) and it was Jehovah again that did the work because He was the person that got tired and need to rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:2-3). So Jesus did nothing.

Have you now seen the confirmation of God's word when he said ALL ALONE and by MYSELF (Isaiah 44:24) and with MY OWN HANDS(Isaiah 48:13) ?

Honestly Paul and John got it wrong by saying that God created all things through Jesus Christ.

Don't be deceived.

Maximus69:
Hooooooooooooo!

Now you know why God said i made everything all by myself whereas you and i perfectly know that humans and animals multiply through what is called PROCREATION So God is the source of all life but we and other creatures are his fellow workers in filling the earth with life! Genesis 1:22,28

So God delegates the power to create other life to you and i, just as he empowered Jesus to take part in the work of CREATION! Proverbs 8:22,30

You are comparing two things which are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from each other.

The general Creation at the beginning of the universe is totally different from procreation of life through reproduction. So the two are not comparable. But if you think they are comparable, then kindly spell out how exactly they are similar.

Pls read what is written below;

According to the theology of JWs, Jesus was the FIRST-BORN of all creation ( Colossians 1:15) and Jesus was the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God (John 3:16). So Jesus was the FIRST and ONLY creature created directly by God. That is to say, God created Jesus, and then it was Jesus that created all other things ( Colossians 1:16, John 1:3). This is the theology of JWs.
In short, this theology says; after God finished the creation of Jesus Christ, He then assigned the creation of ALL OTHER THINGS to Jesus Christ.
If this is true, then all the series of commands causing the heavens, the earth, the light, the animals and the plants into existence should be coming directly from JESUS' MOUTH
But unfortunately, this is not so !
See below what happened during the time of creation;
Genesis 1: 3, 6, 9, 11, 14, 20, 24
1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water."
1:9 And God said, "Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear." And it was so.
1:11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so.

1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
1:20 And God said, "Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the sky."
1:24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.

As you can see from above, at the beginning, the heavens, the earth, the animals and plants were created by the series of commands coming out from GOD'S MOUTH: NOT FROM JESUS' MOUTH

So how exactly did God employ Jesus to do the act of creation for him ?

It is very easy to lie but very difficult to defend it.

Tell us exactly how Jesus partook in the Creation of heavens and the earth ? What special role did he play ?


Furthermore, Genesis 2:2-3 says as follows;

"And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He RESTED on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He RESTED from all His work which God had CREATED and MADE.

This is the great question;

If God assigned the Creation of ALL OTHER THINGS to Jesus according to Paul (Colossians 1:16) and John (John 1:3), then why did God have to REST on the seventh day from all his work as written in the verses above ? Of course, it was Jesus that supposed to rest; not God

It is very easy to lie but very difficult to defend it!

Janosky:
You're missing the point.
The context of Isaiah chapter 44 from verse1 helps us to grasp meaning of verse44.
Vs1-6,Israel is Jehovah's servant but they drifted towards idolatry,verses 7-20,

** verses 21-23, Jehovah assures He will forgive them and welcome them back.

**#* Verses 24-27, Jehovah tells Israel why He is more powerful than the idolatrous gods.
He created Wisdom (, Jesus,1Cor1:24,30) & the Universe ( a fact expressed in Proverbs 8:22,27-29).
"Wisdom" was Jehovah's craftsman during creation,vs30 ), no idol ever did.
*# In Isaiah 44:24, Jehovah proved He is Superior over Israel's man made idol gods (in Isaiah 44:8-20).

***## Pls study Proverb 8:27-29 again and again...

*27 When the Heavens were established, I
was with him, and when he made a circle
over the face of the depths.
*28 And when he empowered the clouds from
above and when he strengthened the
springs of the depths,
*29 When he set the law of the Sea and the
waters would not disobey his mouth, when
he made the foundations of the Earth",
Jehovah "MADE THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH", but Jesus was his "craftsman" Jehovah's assistant, (Proverbs 8:30).

**(2). John15:15
"..... I speak to you as my friends, and I
have told you everything my Father has told
me."

Psalm 33:6 declared as follows;

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth".

It was NEVER by the breath of Jesus' mouth. It was by the breath of God's mouth as Genesis 1:1-26 also confirmed it.

Now tell us how exactly did Jesus partake in the creation of the heavens and earth ?

Maximus69:
@bolded!

Henry Ford have said that a million times Sir!

That's why no other name is known globally in connection with the brand apart from ~FORD!

Then Henry Ford must be a great liar if he said he ALONE made all the ford cars with his OWN HANDS and NOBODY was with him.

Abdulgaffar22:
Yes, we can be 100% sure that God really exist. See the proof below



PREMISE 1; Something must be eternal


Why ; If there is absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past, then there is no way we can have 'SOMETHING' at this present time because something can NEVER come out from absolutely nothing. Therefore, something must be eternal i:e always exist and infinitely old. So what is this very something that is eternal ?


There are only two options; Universe itself or any invisible Being outside the Universe. Let depicts any invisible Being outside the Universe as God.
Of course it would not make sense to assume that both God and Universe are eternal. So only one thing must be eternal.

Now how are we to know which one is eternal ? Is it Universe that is eternal or is it God that is eternal?


PREMISE 2 ; Anything that is ETERNAL (i:e something that is always exist and infinitely old) would not have a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; for anything to CHANGE, an EXTERNAL cause is required to trigger this change. But as we have established above in premise 1, only one thing (i:e either Universe or God) must be eternal. Therefore, in the long past, nothing exist except this ETERNAL entity. Consequently, there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in this ETERNAL entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.


OBJECTION ; Why is it only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ? What of internal cause within the eternal entity ?



REPLY ; if "all the cause" necessary to trigger a change in an eternal entity is INTERNAL (i:e already present inside the entity), then no change would be observed because the final state would always precede the initial state.
For an illustration, let assume that three drops of an indicator (i:e all the necessary cause) is required to CHANGE the colour of an alkali from colourless to pink. That is to say, immediately I finished dropping the third drop, the color will suddenly change from colourless to pink. You will agree with me that "all the three drops" are EXTERNAL CAUSE (i:e outside the alkali). Now if all the three drops of indicator is already inside the alkali right from the beginning of its production (i:e INTERNAL CAUSE), then the INITIAL color of the alkali would be pink instead of colorless. So "changing" from colorless (INITIAL) to pink (FINAL) would never be observed because the initial color of alkali is already pink not colorless. That is to say, the final state has preceded the initial state. Yet for a CHANGE to occur, the initial state must always precede the final state.
Therefore, it is only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ( or anything )

But there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in an ETERNAL entity because in the long past nothing exist beside this eternal entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.



PREMISE 3 ; Universe (or nature) has a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; In the long past, no part of Universe (or nature) can see, can hear, can speak, can think and can move voluntarily . But now some part of the Universe (i:e human beings) can see, can hear, can speak different languages, can think and can move voluntarily. Therefore, Universe has undergone a drastic CHANGE.

Hence, follows from Premise 2, Universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic.

But we have already established from Premise 1 that "SOMETHING (i:e either Universe or God )" must be eternal. And since universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic, then God must be eternal.

But are we 100% sure that this very God actually exist ? If God does not actually exist, then Premise 1 would be wrong because nothing would be eternal. Remember that we have already proved that Universe is not eternal. Hence, if God is also not eternal due to His non existence, then Premise 1 would be wrong.

But Premise 1 is perfectly true. Therefore, God must actually exist.

Yes, we can be 100% sure that God really exist. See the proof below



PREMISE 1; Something must be eternal


Why ; If there is absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past, then there is no way we can have 'SOMETHING' at this present time because something can NEVER come out from absolutely nothing. Therefore, something must be eternal i:e always exist and infinitely old. So what is this very something that is eternal ?


There are only two options; Universe itself or any invisible Being outside the Universe. Let depicts any invisible Being outside the Universe as God.
Of course it would not make sense to assume that both God and Universe are eternal. So only one thing must be eternal.

Now how are we to know which one is eternal ? Is it Universe that is eternal or is it God that is eternal?


PREMISE 2 ; Anything that is ETERNAL (i:e something that is always exist and infinitely old) would not have a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; for anything to CHANGE, an EXTERNAL cause is required to trigger this change. But as we have established above in premise 1, only one thing (i:e either Universe or God) must be eternal. Therefore, in the long past, nothing exist except this ETERNAL entity. Consequently, there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in this ETERNAL entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.


OBJECTION ; Why is it only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ? What of internal cause within the eternal entity ?



REPLY ; if "all the cause" necessary to trigger a change in an eternal entity is INTERNAL (i:e already present inside the entity), then no change would be observed because the final state would always precede the initial state.
For an illustration, let assume that three drops of an indicator (i:e all the necessary cause) is required to CHANGE the colour of an alkali from colourless to pink. That is to say, immediately I finished dropping the third drop, the color will suddenly change from colourless to pink. You will agree with me that "all the three drops" are EXTERNAL CAUSE (i:e outside the alkali). Now if all the three drops of indicator is already inside the alkali right from the beginning of its production (i:e INTERNAL CAUSE), then the INITIAL color of the alkali would be pink instead of colorless. So "changing" from colorless (INITIAL) to pink (FINAL) would never be observed because the initial color of alkali is already pink not colorless. That is to say, the final state has preceded the initial state. Yet for a CHANGE to occur, the initial state must always precede the final state.
Therefore, it is only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ( or anything )

But there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in an ETERNAL entity because in the long past nothing exist beside this eternal entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.



PREMISE 3 ; Universe (or nature) has a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; In the long past, no part of Universe (or nature) can see, can hear, can speak, can think and can move voluntarily . But now some part of the Universe (i:e human beings) can see, can hear, can speak different languages, can think and can move voluntarily. Therefore, Universe has undergone a drastic CHANGE.

Hence, follows from Premise 2, Universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic.

But we have already established from Premise 1 that "SOMETHING (i:e either Universe or God )" must be eternal. And since universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic, then God must be eternal.

But are we 100% sure that this very God actually exist ? If God does not actually exist, then Premise 1 would be wrong because nothing would be eternal. Remember that we have already proved that Universe is not eternal. Hence, if God is also not eternal due to His non existence, then Premise 1 would be wrong.

But Premise 1 is perfectly true. Therefore, God must actually exist.

Janosky:
@Abdulgaffar22, if you don't grasp the message in Prov8:22-30, nothing else will satisfy you.
Jehovah created Jesus, anything Jesus did in the time of creation, Jehovah alone has the right to take the credit.

Do you even know that it is logically wrong to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person other than Himself ?
Let me ask you some questions;
1. How do we know that God really exist ? Was it not through His act of creation ?

2. Why does God deserve our worship ? Was it not because He is our creator ?

Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation we acknowledged His existence and through it He deserve our worship ?

Honestly, if God really assigned the creation of ALL things to another person, then "all what that make God to be God" has been given out to that person. Of course, this is impossible because God has declared that He would NEVER give out His glory to another person (Isaiah 48:11, 42:8-9). Yet there is no any God's glory that is greater than the glory of General Creation.

Furthermore, you will agree with me that the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator (Revelation 14:7) . Now if somebody else other than God is our immediate creator, then that person also deserve our worship. Yet, only God deserve to be worship (Matthew 4:10). This is exactly the reason why God would never assigned the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".

So apart from Isaiah 44:24, 48:13 and others which make us to know that God did not assign the act of general creation to anybody other than Himself, we also logically know that such kind of assignment would be equivalent to God's giving out His Glory to another; something He promised never to do

Hence, Proverbs 8:22-30 can only be referring to the wisdom or master plan firstly produced by God before the actual creation of things just like an architect firstly produce a building plan before the actual building of the house. So it was this wisdom or master plan that was personified in this very passage.

However, if you insist that this passage of Proverbs 8:22-30 refers to Jesus being PRESENT WITH GOD during the time of general Creation, then you have to accept that the question asked by God at the end of Isaiah 44:24 NWT - "WHO WAS WITH ME ?" is totally contradictory to what you believe.

May God guide you to the truth

Janosky:
***Henry Ford's ingenuity gave birth to Ford motor cars.
Do we conclude that he singlehandedly built every Ford car that was sold to customers?
Peace be unto you.

God Almighty says;

''I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF(Isaiah 44:24)

Can you show us where Henry Ford said that he ALONE made all the ford cars sold to customers? Or where he said I built all the ford cars by MYSELF

God Almighty also declares as follows;

"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)"

Can you also show us where Henry Ford said every ford cars sold to customers was built by MY OWN HANDS ?

May God guide you to the right path

THERE IS A VERY GREAT WAR IN THE WORLD OF CHRISTIANTY BECAUSE THE PROBLEM OF WHO IS GOD AND WHO IS THE CREATOR ARE YET TO BE SOLVED

Please read what is written below;




Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, THROUGH WHOM ALL THINGS CAME and through whom we live.( 1st Corinthians 8:6).


For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; ALL THINGS HAVE BEEN CREATED THROUGH him and for him ( Colossians 1:16).


THROUGH him ALL THINGS WERE MADE ; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3)


But is it really true that God assigned the creation of things, including the heavens and earth, to Jesus christ ? Let see what God Almighty say about this matter ;


"This is what the LORD says, your Redeemer and the one who formed you in the womb: 'I am the LORD, who has made everything, who ALONE stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth BY MYSELF (WHO WAS WITH ME ?) (Isaiah 44:24 KJV, NWT)


"MY OWN HAND laid the foundations of the earth, and MY RIGHT HAND spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together. (Isaiah 48:13)".


It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. MY OWN HANDS stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts (Isaiah 45:12)


"For My HAND made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD ( Isaiah 66:2)


As you can see from above, Paul and John proclaimed that God delegated the creation of all things to Jesus Christ. But God Almighty declare that He created all things ALL ALONE, BY HIMSELF, BY HIS OWN HANDS AND NOBODY WAS WITH HIM. What better words do we want God to use before we can believe that He created the heavens and the earth without the assistance of anybody ?
If a man hires a contractor as his agent to build a house, could the man say that he built the house “ALL ALONE” and "BY HIS OWN HANDS" without lying? So could God Almighty have lied about creating the heavens and the earth by His own hands while He actually used another distinct person as His agent to actually do the creation for Him?

Besides, who want to know or care that one true God exist if not for His act of creation? The only reason why we label all the idols as " false gods" is because they did not create anything and that is the reason they do not deserve our worship. Therefore, it is quite true that all the worship and glorification we give to God originate from the fact of being the Creator of all things . In other words, the STRONGEST REASON why God deserve our worship, praises and glory is because He was the one that created us and all other things that exist (See Psalm 95:6, 96:4-5, 139:14, Revelation 4:11, 14:7). Does it now make sense to believe that God assigned the creation of all things to another person given that it is through that very act of creation He deserve our worship and through it we acknowledge His existence ?
Hence, if Jehovah witnesses and other Christians rely heavily on the words of Paul and John or any other person and therefore insist that God assigned the creation of all things to Jesus Christ, then Jesus deserve their worship because the reasonable response of the creature is to worship their Creator. Yet, only God deserve to be worship. This is exactly the reason why God would never delegate the creation of things to any other person other than Himself as He clearly stated above: "BY MYSELF( Isaiah 44:24)".
In fact, the question at the end of Isaiah 44:24 quoted above - "WHO WAS WITH ME ?" present in some versions of the Bible (including NWT Bible of Jehovah's witnesses) is an indisputable evidence that God did not employ the service of anybody during the creation of the heavens and the earth ! But sadly enough, the Christians still prefer those fallible words of men (which they believe to be inspired by God) to those infallible words of God that came DIRECTLY from God's mouth.
Is this not the high time for the Christians to question their belief that the whole of the Bible is an inspired word of God? Here we can see how Paul and John contradict God Almighty on the issue of creation; a very important matter that seperate the one true God from all other false gods.

The only way to resolve this contradiction is when we assume that Jesus is God. But as we have already established above, there are many verses of Bible that will never support this assumption.

Consequently, if Jehovah witnesses manage to escape the problem of accepting Jesus as God, there is no way they can escape the problem of accepting him as master worker of all creation. The only solution to this problem is to expunge all those fallible words of men from the Bible while allowing the DIRECT words from God's mouth to stay. But then, what are we to say about the authenticity of the Bible ?


Have you now agreed with me that the problem of "Who is God ? and who is the creator ?" is yet to be resolved in the world of Christianity . This is a FOUNDATIONAL problem that can never be overlooked. As we all know, any beautiful mansion that is erected on a very weak foundation is bound to collapse!

bingbagbo:
Jesus Christ is God Almighty

Mark 10:17-18 says as follows ; "Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, “Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?” So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.”.

If Jesus is God, why did he reject being called “good” and then submit that all goodness belongs only to God?



. Furthermore, in John 14:1, Jesus said “let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me”. Remember Jesus did NOT say: "you believe in Father, believe also in me". He said : "you believe in God, believe also in me”.

Therefore, if Jesus is God, why did he clearly distinguish himself from God?



. Again, in Matthew 24:36, Jesus said; “But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the son, but ONLY THE FATHER”.


If Jesus is God, why did he confess his lack of knowledge about the Day of Judgment and then submit that the knowledge of that day belongs only to the Father? Can God be lacking anything as regard to knowledge?


Lastly, inJohn 20:17, Jesus was reported to have said “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”.


If Jesus is God Almighty, then which God was he referring to when he said ; "my God and your God"? Can God Almighty have another God?

Yes, we can be 100% sure that God really exist. See the proof below



PREMISE 1; Something must be eternal


Why ; If there is absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past, then there is no way we can have 'SOMETHING' at this present time because something can NEVER come out from absolutely nothing. Therefore, something must be eternal i:e always exist and infinitely old. So what is this very something that is eternal ?


There are only two options; Universe itself or any invisible Being outside the Universe. Let depicts any invisible Being outside the Universe as God.
Of course it would not make sense to assume that both God and Universe are eternal. So only one thing must be eternal.

Now how are we to know which one is eternal ? Is it Universe that is eternal or is it God that is eternal?


PREMISE 2 ; Anything that is ETERNAL (i:e something that is always exist and infinitely old) would not have a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; for anything to CHANGE, an EXTERNAL cause is required to trigger this change. But as we have established above in premise 1, only one thing (i:e either Universe or God) must be eternal. Therefore, in the long past, nothing exist except this ETERNAL entity. Consequently, there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in this ETERNAL entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.


OBJECTION ; Why is it only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ? What of internal cause within the eternal entity ?



REPLY ; if "all the cause" necessary to trigger a change in an eternal entity is INTERNAL (i:e already present inside the entity), then no change would be observed because the final state would always precede the initial state.
For an illustration, let assume that three drops of an indicator (i:e all the necessary cause) is required to CHANGE the colour of an alkali from colourless to pink. That is to say, immediately I finished dropping the third drop, the color will suddenly change from colourless to pink. You will agree with me that "all the three drops" are EXTERNAL CAUSE (i:e outside the alkali). Now if all the three drops of indicator is already inside the alkali right from the beginning of its production (i:e INTERNAL CAUSE), then the INITIAL color of the alkali would be pink instead of colorless. So "changing" from colorless (INITIAL) to pink (FINAL) would never be observed because the initial color of alkali is already pink not colorless. That is to say, the final state has preceded the initial state. Yet for a CHANGE to occur, the initial state must always precede the final state.
Therefore, it is only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ( or anything )

But there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in an ETERNAL entity because in the long past nothing exist beside this eternal entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.



PREMISE 3 ; Universe (or nature) has a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; In the long past, no part of Universe (or nature) can see, can hear, can speak, can think and can move voluntarily . But now some part of the Universe (i:e human beings) can see, can hear, can speak different languages, can think and can move voluntarily. Therefore, Universe has undergone a drastic CHANGE.

Hence, follows from Premise 2, Universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic.

But we have already established from Premise 1 that "SOMETHING (i:e either Universe or God )" must be eternal. And since universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic, then God must be eternal.

But are we 100% sure that this very God actually exist ? If God does not actually exist, then Premise 1 would be wrong because nothing would be eternal. Remember that we have already proved that Universe is not eternal. Hence, if God is also not eternal due to His non existence, then Premise 1 would be wrong.

But Premise 1 is perfectly true. Therefore, God must actually exist.

masterP042:
After all the dogon turenci u still made another assumption. Provide clear empirical evidence that God or supernatural exists or forever hold your peace.

If you're not satisfied with that, here is another empirical evidence that God or supernatural exists;




PREMISE 1; Something must be eternal


Why ; If there is absolutely 'NOTHING' in the long past, then there is no way we can have 'SOMETHING' at this present time because something can NEVER come out from absolutely nothing. Therefore, something must be eternal i:e always exist and infinitely old. So what is this very something that is eternal ?


There are only two options; Universe itself or any invisible Being outside the Universe. Let depicts any invisible Being outside the Universe as God.
Of course it would not make sense to assume that both God and Universe are eternal. So only one thing must be eternal.

Now how are we to know which one is eternal ? Is it Universe that is eternal or is it God that is eternal?


PREMISE 2 ; Anything that is ETERNAL (i:e something that is always exist and infinitely old) would not have a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; for anything to CHANGE, an EXTERNAL cause is required to trigger this change. But as we have established above in premise 1, only one thing (i:e either Universe or God) must be eternal. Therefore, in the long past, nothing exist except this ETERNAL entity. Consequently, there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in this ETERNAL entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.


OBJECTION ; Why is it only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ? What of internal cause within the eternal entity ?



REPLY ; if "all the cause" necessary to trigger a change in an eternal entity is INTERNAL (i:e already present inside the entity), then no change would be observed because the final state would always precede the initial state.
For an illustration, let assume that three drops of an indicator (i:e all the necessary cause) is required to CHANGE the colour of an alkali from colourless to pink. That is to say, immediately I finished dropping the third drop, the color will suddenly change from colourless to pink. You will agree with me that "all the three drops" are EXTERNAL CAUSE (i:e outside the alkali). Now if all the three drops of indicator is already inside the alkali right from the beginning of its production (i:e INTERNAL CAUSE), then the INITIAL color of the alkali would be pink instead of colorless. So "changing" from colorless (INITIAL) to pink (FINAL) would never be observed because the initial color of alkali is already pink not colorless. That is to say, the final state has preceded the initial state. Yet for a CHANGE to occur, the initial state must always precede the final state.
Therefore, it is only an EXTERNAL cause that can trigger a change in an eternal entity ( or anything )

But there was no any external cause that can trigger a change in an ETERNAL entity because in the long past nothing exist beside this eternal entity. Hence, anything that is ETERNAL would not have a "changing" characteristic.



PREMISE 3 ; Universe (or nature) has a CHANGING characteristic.


Why; In the long past, no part of Universe (or nature) can see, can hear, can speak, can think and can move voluntarily . But now some part of the Universe (i:e human beings) can see, can hear, can speak different languages, can think and can move voluntarily. Therefore, Universe has undergone a drastic CHANGE.

Hence, follows from Premise 2, Universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic.

But we have already established from Premise 1 that "SOMETHING (i:e either Universe or God )" must be eternal. And since universe is not eternal because of its CHANGING characteristic, then God must be eternal.

But are we 100% sure that this very God actually exist ? If God does not actually exist, then Premise 1 would be wrong because nothing would be eternal. Remember that we have already proved that Universe is not eternal. Hence, if God is also not eternal due to His non existence, then Premise 1 would be wrong.

But Premise 1 is perfectly true. Therefore, God must actually exist.

Abiogenesis is the creation of the first living cell from non living materials through a natural process.


Evolution is the process by which different kinds of living organism are believed to have developed from earlier forms during the history of the earth.


As we can see from above, there is no way we can divorce the theory of abiogenesis from the theory of evolution because without abiogenesis, evolution cannot take place.


But abiogenesis is impossible because of the natural law of entropy.


Natural law of entropy simply says things tend to become disorder when left to themselves. For example, dead cells tend to decay and disintegrate as time passes by.

Now let assume that nature want to create the first living and self replicating cell from non living materials (abiogenesis).

Remember that non- living materials are no way different from dead cells because both are "dead" already.

In fact, dead cells are even higher in quality than non-living materials because some of the organelles (which are no where to be found in the non-living materials) may still be present in the dead cells.

Now this is where I am going;

If natural law of entropy tends to cause the
DEAD CELLS TO DECAY AND DISINTEGRATE
ever more, then would such law of entropy
allow the NON LIVING MATERIALS TO BUILD
UP GRADUALLY until they reach the level of
"dead cell"-let alone jumping to the level of
"living and self replicating cell" ?


Of course, a prevailing condition in one community (i:e natural law of entropy) which always prevent all secondary school student (i:e all dead cells) from furthering their education to a University ( i:e living and self replicating cell) would NEVER allow a student from the same community to now jump from primary school level (i:e non living materials) to the same University.


This is not the issue of the gaps in scientific knowledge being used as evidence for God. Honestly, it is a matter of logical reasoning if you really understand the simple English I wrote up there.


Even if intelligent and conscious humans can give life to the dead in the future, then this will ONLY show that INTELLIGENCE and CONSCIOUSNESS is required for the miracle of abiogenesis to take place. It would NEVER prove that unintelligent and unconscious nature has performed this miracle in the past.


Therefore, if abiogenesis is impossible in a natural world (as we have just proved), then natural evolution has NOTHING to start with. This is how the theory of natural evolution collapses right from its foundation!



Hence, if evolution is really true as the evolutionary scientists want to us believe, then it must be orchestrated by a supernatural being.

The only reasonable candidate to occupy the sit of this supernatural being is God. Therefore, God must exist.