₦airaland Forum

Lana1:
I was gonna wait till after matchday 6, but.....


Raumdeuter since we're still being childish,
This week in the UCL...

German teams:
3Gp. 3Ls. 1F. 8A

English teams:
5Gp. 4Ws. 1D. 12F. 3A.



What say ye??

It does not count. German clubs fight for coefficients not trophies and UEFA has undermined them by not using coefficients anymore.

Blame UEFA for those results. I stand with the Bundesliga.

Nihilist:
Let us all blame coefficient.

Where's Dr afrodoc2?

You garrrit
The coefficient does not count anymore so from now on until it starts counting again the German clubs will be receiving bare BBC........swinging from side to side.

To be fair the coefficient doesn't count anymore. That is why Bayern took the D from PSG today.

Now I agree. German clubs are not interested in co-efficient.

raumdeuter:
You garrritt

You don't mean it?

But for some obscure reason this affects only German teams but not Spanish or English teams.

You must have the clutch gene from the tenacious way you are clutching at straws here.

In essence what you are saying is that because they now have 4 automatic spots they are all happy to play rubbish and be knocked out this year just because they have automatic spots for next year's competition ......in which they will come happily to play rubbish again because they have 4 automatic spots for the year after in which they will .........rinse n repeat.

YOU DON'T MEAN IT?

raumdeuter:
I already predicted this before season started. WHen the rankings had effect German teams went 2nd and put a decent gap between us and EPL

So you are saying German clubs were playing well before not to advance far or try to win the competition for themselves or even prove their quality but just for the collective national coefficient ?

YOU DON'T MEAN IT?

raumdeuter:
German teams dont care about the ranking anymore since UEFA scattered the whole incentive

You don't mean it?

Nihilist:
That's a tourist area so there should be loads of bars there.

Walk towards the Thames and you're literally on the soùthbank. You'll have gone past several bars on the way sef.

Thanks, I got one above Vic station. Too bad they are showing only spurs and liv games but I go manage, at all at all Na him bad pass.

Ibime:
Dem suppose plenty na. Just google. No be the kain area I go go to watch football so wouldn't know TBH but you can never more than 10 mins walk from one in that area.

Nice e be like say one dey Victoria Station sef.

Nihilist, Ibime abeg which sports bar person fit watch football for Westminster area?

Ibime:
I watched one match Owobokiri played around 1993 oh, he was atrocious. He is my kinsman sef, but we all agreed he had a stinker.

One match can't really judge a player.
Anyway was just using it as an example of how strikers were blocked out.
Even Ikpeba was sidelined. That was why after Italy knocked us out of USA 94 when players were entering team bus to go to airport Ikpeba rented a private limo to take him to the airport.

Ibime:
Why did none of these guys make National team except Headmaster? I believe Chris Ohen had a decent career in Spain. I used to see him on Championship Manager as late as 1998.

Another guy who is probably Naijas 2nd best AM of all time was Oruma, but injuries and Okocha stunted his Eagles career, though he resurfaced quite strongly in the 2000s with Marseille and sometimes with Eagles. That guy was too talented jor. I even naturally like his style of play compared to Okochas riskier style. He was a very European style of playmaker, low risk, but great passing.

Another dribbler extraordinaire was James Obiorah. He was the star of Qatar 1995 but that team phucked up his profile by going out in Quarter final.

Ohenhen was jamming when he was at Compostela.
But Yekini, Amokachi and Siasia blocked him.
I heard he refused to sort the coaches so he didn't get regular call ups.
Even Owobokiri that was killing it in Portugal was ignored.

Ibime:
Algeria 1990 was my first match I watched, when they flogged us 5-1.

I always hit the playground in 1989 to hear stories of the 89 abi 91 tournament though. They would be singing:

"We play Russia, we beat Russia.
We play USA, we beat USA
We play Portugal, Portugal give us 2-nought. Aroma stylee, styleee. Isawonaroma, Romaaa"

Lol that was from ras kimono's song Rhumba style.
It was 89 saudi.
Quarter final against Russia was miracle of damman. Never forget momsie was pounding yam that day.
Semi final was USA . 2 goals by headmaster mutiu adepoju I believe.
But d Portuguese were too sound and mature in the final.

So if I tell these young ones of how my elder cousin and I used to sneak to the car to unhook car battery to power the TV for Chile 87 which was in the middle of the night in Naija they will say I googled it.
Or how they had to beg me to go to school after Brazil pummeled us 4-0?
Or how LTV 8 showed Fa cup final between Liverpool and Wimbledon in the 80s cos Fashanu was playing?
Or how ref robbed us in Canada 87?

So because you don't know nobody else can know? Continue, you are doing yourself not me. Lol

Keown was good. And the gap in caps between him and Southgate is just over 10 caps (not so much considering) and is mainly due to Venables who i believe preferred ball playing Southgate to Keown.
And also in the late 80s to early 90s England was doing CB by committee essentially between Butcher, Adams, Keown, Pallister, Mark Wright, Des Walker e.t.c
Even Bobby Robson used 3 CBs in 1990 i believe. Steve Bruce captaining Man Utd to league titles did not get a single cap.

Ibime:
We talking club football here. Italy NT wasn't shaking shyt in late 90s International football so what happened with National team doesn't resonate like the big UCL nights where Montero and Ferrara were centre stage nor the epic Serie A title fights of which 97/98 was the most epic. I also cut off at 1996 because that's when Montero arrived in Juve and when I started following European football. 5 years is a long enough period to consider and for that period, Ferrara and Montero are most definitely top 10.

I also drew comparison between Martin Keown and Iuliano because there are some defenders that gave extra solid performances year in and out and did not receive the accolades. Martin Keown was the strongest and fastest Arsenal CB, super sound positionally and very organised and vocal yet his England caps tell another story while Gareth Southgate was collecting caps upon caps. Keown did a lot of the donkey work in Arsenal defence, likewise Iuliano was the faster Juve defender and the only one over 6ft tall excluding Tachinardi who was really a DM. Iuliano did a lot of the donkey work, ate all the aerial balls, and did most of the foot races, yet his status was way lower than Ferrara and Montero. Most underrated defenders of that period would include Keown, Ronny Johnsen, Iuliano them while Ferrara and Montero would definitely be mentioned in elite top 10 category.

I am talking football whether club or national team no matter. In the late 90s Nesta and Cannavaro were already better than Ciro Ferrara as defenders. They benched him well in the national team and they are not King Maldini or Prince Costacurta.
Tony Adams was better, Jaap Stam was better.

Iuliano was definitely not world class just like Ronny Johnsen was not. Being under rated does not make you world class. Ciro Ferrara was not world class with both old school and new school Italian defenders benching him in the national team.
Also i watched him well. He was not in the class of Maldini, Baresi, Cannavaro or Nesta. He just wasn't.

That Juve team had a defensive mind set as a TEAM and worked well together as a UNIT. That is why almost all their defenders were ordinary when they left that side for national teams and for other clubs. And that is why even with change in personnel they kept their defensive solidity.

Ibime:
Vierchowod, Bergomi and Baresi were finished when Montero was taking off in Serie in 1996. Desailly was no patch on Montero from when Montero arrived in Italy and was chased away to Chelsea in 1998. Blanc was a disgrace at Barca during that same period (1996 to 2000) and was chased away to Marseille. Cannavaro was the equivalent of Eric Dier today during that same period as part of a young and promising Parma side, but trophyless and without renown. Hierro was conceding a lot of goals that period also.

Come to think of it, only the two Bayern boys of those you mentioned can arguably be placed above him for that period, and I can't even speak of that with authority as I wasn't following Bundesliga closely. You suppose dey mention Adams and Maldini dem sef, not these expired products.

Trust me, you cannot name top 10 respected defenders 1996 to 2000 without mentioning Ferrara and Montero.

Chic2pimp mentioned the decade of the 90s and i was answering him for the whole decade.

And 96 to 2000 Nesta and Cannavaro were already better than Ferrara and benching him in the national team DESPITE playing for smaller teams.
Cannavaro without renown ke? In that 96-2000 period Cannavaro played about 45 times for Italy from his young Parma side while Ciro played only 14 times despite playing for dominant Juve. Nesta played about 35 times too.

Ciro was not any world class ki a ma puro, ki a ma jale. Montero on his part should have borrowed a leaf from Carlos Gamarra who went to 2 world cups playing 8 matches combined, leading his team to the 2nd round each time.....and did not concede a single foul.

raumdeuter:
I can question guys like Bergomi Hierro over Montero

The defensive set up at Juve aided those guys. Iuliano is decent and Ciro n Montero were good but not world class. But that team was built to defend. Having a good defensive record was about the WHOLE UNIT including the plethora of hatchet men in front of them.
tachinardi, davids, paulo sousa, deschamps, zambrotta, di livio et al at different times.

While Iuliano was struggling to make the Italian squad in this dominant Juve side young boys like Nesta and Cannavaro were making team from less successful clubs, so it wasn't about any king maldini or prince costacurta blocking him.

The young Hierro was better in my opinion but he played in a system that exposed the CBs. Bergomi maybe you are right, his best years were late 80s and early 90s.

chic2pimp:
What era are we referring to?. Just making sure as He had a long career. If we are talking about the 90s, then I'd say He was. You'd be hard pressed to Name 10 CBs that had better careers in the 90s.

I agree He did show signs of poor positioning at times but that shouldn't distract from His qualities as a Footballer. I think we need to judge Him on a yearly basis. He was most certainly world class in some of those years especially in His Pomp.

As for your last statement 100% agree. However He was not just simply a "Good Player'.

Maldini, Baresi, Desailly, Blanc, Vierchowood, Sammer, Kohler, Hierro, Bergomi, Cannavaro. And i am talking about quality or ability not just having a better career.

chic2pimp:
Ciro was most definitely world class. One of the Best defenders Italy has produced. He was simply unlucky to be Born in an era when the Azzuris had quite a few quality defenders. Underrated much like Vierchwood was.

Also don't let Montero's thuggish behaviour foul you, dude was classy on the ball too.

Ciro was a good defender. Definitely better than that mark iuliano. However it looks like we have different definitions of that term "world class". IMO he was not one of the top 10 CBs in that era so he des not qualify. And unless you are making a list of top 40 or top 50 defenders Italy ever produced i don't see how Ferrara makes the list. lol

I watched Montero, i never said he was not classy on the ball. Just saying he was not individually at the top of the game and he showed poor positioning multiple times. If i can name 8 to 10 players better than you in your position in my opinion the argument for you being world class is weak.
Not every good player is world class.

Nihilist:
Krychowiak just fall airmark hand o.

Heavy falling.

You don't mean it? World best DM ?

Lacazette alert!

Ibime:
National team honours is where World Class was decided, with a little bit of media hyperbole as well. They could not hype these guys too much in Italy after already crowning Maldini and Baresi King and Costacurta Prince over at Milan. A country cannot hype all it's defenders, but make no mistake, these guys whipped Maldini, Baresi and Costacurtas âss all over the shop from 1995 to 2000. The beating they gave the Milan boys in the art of defending was worse than Mayweather vs McGregor.

I personally like Mark Iulianos style the best. Just like Martin Keown, he was as good as any defender of his time, and can give you 9/10 job every game without the accolades and International hype.

Mark Iuliano? We will just have to agree to disagree.

raumdeuter:
Juventus didn't park the bus, and they still had one of the meanest defence, Someone was definitely doing the job. Maybe because Montero didn't have a strong National team then denied him of some of his respect

Was Ferrera also world class? Or Iuliano?

They all benefitted from a defensive SYSTEM with people like Deschamps, Paulo Sousa, Edgar Davids, Di Livio in front of them.
I rate Nesta, Cannavaro, Maldini, Sammer, Kohler, Ayala, Thuram, Hierro, Desailly, Blanc, Stam ahead of those Juve guys.

Not taking anything from them but it was more about the system than the individual players. And let us remember that Montero played only 2 consecutive UCL finals not 3 and he LOST both. The one he missed the year before was the defensive master class by Juve which they won.

Ibime:
You could say the same about Bonucci and co today then. You cannot judge 1990s with the eyes of today. Pace was not an issue for centrebacks then. A defender could comfortably be World Class without pace eg Baresi, Adams and co. If you describe all these defenders as limited, then add Deschamps and Conte who were also limited, is that not supposed to be a West Brom style of team? However 3 UCL finals in a row begs to differ, not to mention a further final in 2003 plus semis in 1999. Nah, these guys were class. Breaking Juventus defence then was the hardest thing in football, and if you break it, Montero would hack you down and take one for the team.

A very good defensive UNIT i agree.
But let's not use team success alone to judge individual quality. So was Mark iuliano world class too or was ciro Ferrara world class?
Just cos the TEAM had success does not mean every player in it was world class.
I can easily name 10 defenders in that period better than Montero and his doped CB goons.

raumdeuter:
Emerson used to warn players that where he comes from if you nutmeg him, He has a right to end your career, So pass before you get to him

The entire Juventus back line were animals Ciro Ferrara Paolo Montero, Alessio Tachinardi, Torricelli, Mark Iuliano

And the Butcher of Bilbao. He didnt even get sent off for this tackle


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9_f9UrizSk

He broke Maradonas ankle and kept the boot he used in a glass case as a souvenir

I remember that Juve vs Ajax final.
Those guys were animals. That is why when we found later that those guys were doping I was not shocked.

Ibime:
Everyone has his style. Baresi, Maldini, Adams hardly tackled, however Paolo Montero was top class even with his agbero ways. Despite all his cards, he was a sure banker for Juventus for 9 years, and they were (arguably) the strongest and most consistent club side in the world during the period Paolo played for them. The triumvirate of Mark Juliano, Paolo Montero and Ciro Ferrara were like cash in the bank, with Alessio Tacchinardi sometimes dropping in. Of those, Montero and Ferrara were the most respected.

Decent defender and tough customer.
But all those fouls and red cards in that video just highlight suspect positioning and limited pace.

That Juve defensive unit was very good based on the defensive midfield shield, the keeper behind them and of course their Italian coaching and mind set. However IMO none of the central defenders was individually world class, Montero included.

raumdeuter:
Laws are now tweaked to favour attackers more. Most of these players and tackles wont survive todays laws. Montero wont play a complete 90mins for a season in todays football

I watched an old tape Chelsea vs Leeds.
Ron "chopper" Harris for Chelsea and Norman "bite yer legs" Hunter with Billy Bremner for Leeds.
Counted about 6 slam dunk red cards and a couple of assault charges in the first 5 minutes.
I am not sure the ref booked any player in that period.

Montero was very rugged no doubt but he was never top class in my view. Way too many fouls and red cards. In this era he would have been a Stoke City defender.
Baresi, Maldini, Nesta, Carvalho, Desailly, Adams
had more controlled aggression and hence more accuracy with their tackles.

Shuo!
Person can't play with someone here again ?

Omo this match must have been terrible from the lamentations i have read here.
There is almost no defensive move JM will make that will shock me.
We have not played any big team and we already fielding 6 defenders, LOL