₦airaland Forum

Very good topic

One that is born again cannot sin but can commit error.

However if he knowing continues to live in the error for a second he is a sinner and is liable to death in Hell fire.

@abuzola

Being rich or poor is a thing of the mindset largely.

@Mr D

It is the biggest lie. Christianity was not introduced to Africa by Europeans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uOgEmS_3A0&feature=related

Are this prospe bible preachers serious at all.

Abuzola:
Having a good day ? Blessed is He who is sufficient of all things. Yes every muslim will enter paradise whether good or evil but the evil one wil be tormented for a while. This is the salvation of Islam. Allah forgives who He wills- The question u are asking me pertinent to this is tantamount to why does Allah make some people rich and other poor despite the fact that they are all humans, so God is unjust. May Allah have mercy on u.

Your god is unjust not The Jesus my God.

Tell what is the prerequisite for forgiveness.

wearing of Earing is deforming the body be it Man or woman. Period

@abuzola
Tthis is why i said that there is a contradiction of the verses of the Alquran and Ahaadith.

I want you to answer me now yes or no


Since you said yourself

Abuzola:
@my debater: to be sincere english language is your problem, i have made everything explicitly. God forgives a person who repent, but those who do not repent[b] if [/b] He wills He forgive them and if He will He punish them for their sins.

What would make him "will" "if" and "will" are not tangible"if" is a supposition and his "Will" will be based on something. sO TELL ME WHAT IS THE "IF" BASED ON AND WHAT IS THE "WILL" BASED ON?

Abuzola:
If God should forgive everybody and admit them into paradise then what is the purpose of hell ? The Quran made it clear to us that Hell will be full.

What this then means is that Your allah is very unjust and he is putting evil and good men together.
To this end i say your allah is a compendium of contradictions, because you yourself cannot give me a straight laid down rule for forgiveness. if i sin and I dont ask for forgiveness what it means is that if Allah is having a good day I may just get admitted into Firdaus Alijana?

John 5
1After this there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem.

2Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool, which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

3In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.

4For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.

5And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.

6When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

7The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me.

8Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk.

9And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

Can you Imagine Jesus was asking if the man wanted a Miracle. To the man it looked like he wanted Jesus to carry him. I dont think he wanted a miracle from jesus but an act of Kindness.

Some men of God have no power of God on them and they tell you to have faith so that a Miracle can be performed. True men of God are praying and it looks like they have Shut the heavens. Hence we see trickery by men of god.

Selah

@Chrisbenogor

The wages of Sin is death

God was Arrested by our love(agape)

He became man and was Convicted

He was Sentenced to Die by hanging in place of you and I (why? because he loved us)

His sin was that he loved us to become human and Lived amongst us to free us from sin.

By his death he said it is finished and we can now be called sons of God.

So that we cannot Live in sin against God and Man.

Quran 4:116 'Verily, Allah forgives not setting up partners in Him, but He forgives whom He wills sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allah has indeed strayed faraway"

Quran 4:110 ' And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah oft-forgiving , most merciful" this is the principle of forgiveness.

The 2 above quranic quotation is contradiction.

in one verse it gives the criteria for forgiveness as Allah's will
whilst in the other verse he gives it as Seeking Allah forgiveness.

you said yourself that allah can even forgive without asking. This allah is not Straightforward and this is contradiction to the highest Order.

Even adding more to the Contradiction is the Ahaadith where Allah forgave just by a good deed.

I am not interested in Defeating you. You go and read most of the thread i make my statements wether you think I win or loose I am not that popular.

look at you so you dont know Adam never sinned before the fall?

What heresy is this ?

Show me where Adam sinned before Jesus was provided?

Abuzola:
@my debater, Quran 4:110 ' And whoever does evil or wrongs himself but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah oft-forgiving , most merciful" this is the principle of forgiveness.

Oh you mean that is the Criteria for forgiveness? Ok well understood but what about the "WHOEVER" I boldened above?

Abuzola:
On the issue of Allah forgiving whom He wills is directed towards[b] those [/b] who do evil and did not repent or ask Allah's forgiveness,

Who are the "those"

It looks like there are some people that are special in Islam that can sin, not ask for forgiveness, not repent and still be forgiven? how do I qualify to be in this LEAGUE of Men to freely commit sin and not asked Allah for forgiveness?

Abuzola:
if He wills He forgives the sin of His servant without the servant asking for it and

How does one become a super Servant that i dont need to ask for forgiveness and continue to sin like no mans business?

Abuzola:
if He wills punish him for the sin for he never repent or ask for forgiveness.

If he wills? can you tell me what will make him will or not punish. because it is looking like the God you are talking about is not the one I know.

He added that the list also contains names of undercover agents from the Directorate of Military Intelligence (DMI), the Joint Task Force (JTF) and State Security Service (SSS) whose identity cannot be exposed to the public.

Did I not say it that the DMI was involved?

because how can you attack without intelligence?

Army head of Intelligence must resign immediately.

@Fyneguy

100% Holiness

Adam was without sin and this gave him fellow with the TRIUNE God.

@ The Issue of Gbagada Church

I for one know that the Gbagada Church is very small.
Besides Bro Kumuyi does not overburden the Oxen.

@Abuzola

You can leave the dbate but it leaves My question which

In the Quran it says

Quote from: Abuzola on Yesterday at 07:43:26 PM
Oh ! See Quran 4:116 'Verily, Allah forgives not setting up partners in Him, but He forgives whom He wills sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allah has indeed strayed faraway"

as u can see Allah forgives whom he will and thats what happen to the man u quoted in Bukhari hadith

This means that even if you repent and ask for forgives it is Allahs Will that matters not what you Do or believe. You quoted the Above not me

Now look below

Q. Ch4 (the women)

173) Then as for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace; and as for those who disdain and are proud, He will chastise them with a painful chastisement. And they shall not find for themselves besides Allah a guardian or a helper

It says believe and do good is[b] the criteria for forgiveness[/b]

Now from the Hadith


Volume 3, Book 43, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was on the way, he found a thorny branch of a tree there on the way and removed it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him."

The person did not need

1) Repent
2) confess allah as the only true and Mohamed his Prophet


It was only the Do good and Allah's component that was shown in the Hadith. The believe component is missing.

Moreso from the Quran you quoted it contradicts The Quran I quoted. because it means that If I cry, repent and ask for my sin to be forgiven If your ALLAH does not WILL then I cannot be forgiven.

Please this is my Question Thanks for your Patience. We cannot be tired of quoting and requoting what we claim to be the Word of Allah.

it is you I am talking to not Pastor Chris.

No pastor hold my perfect view on Scripture

Hmm
this is why i said the Church is supposed to be for the Redeemed of God only

@pepeye

I am interested in your type of Born again.

Just tell me what your Zion is

@abuzola
You keep contradicting with more Quranic verses

You are qouting more Quranic verse and the verse I quoted does not agree with the verse you quoted.

Abuzola:
Oh ! See Quran 4:116 'Verily, Allah forgives not setting up partners in Him, but He forgives whom He wills sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allah has indeed strayed faraway" as u can see Allah forgives whom he will and thats what happen to the man u quoted in Bukhari hadith

and its no more



Q. Ch4 (the women)

173) Then as for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace; and as for those who disdain and are proud, He will chastise them with a painful chastisement. And they shall not find for themselves besides Allah a guardian or a helper



We see that the quran seems to be shifting the goal post on what the basis forgiveness is all about

Abuzola what is the real QUALIFICATION for FORGIVENESS

@Abuzola

The Quran has given the guidline for forgiveness of sin

in

Q. Ch4 (the women)

173) Then as for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace; and as for those who disdain and are proud, He will chastise them with a painful chastisement. And they shall not find for themselves besides Allah a guardian or a helper


Now if you read

Sahih bukari

as i quoted

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was on the way, he found a thorny branch of a tree there on the way and removed it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him."

What the above means is that Just an act brought about forgiveness from Allah the man did not believe. Does this not CONTRADICT the Al Quran?

if you read what i said when i posted

Backslider:
@abuzola

i will convert to be a muslim if you can sincerely convince me.

lets us understand that the hadith is a the tradition of the Prophet which contains his saying and it is believed taht The Prophet first forbade the writing of hadith so that people willl not confuse it with the Qur'an. He then allowed or ordered some Companions to write hadith when there was no risk of confusion.


Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih (autnetic) only when it passes

1) Fann-i-Riwaayat

This is where The Hadith is put to a sequential test i.e I said that Nigeria became a republic before it gained independence that is error


2) Fann-i-Daraayat

This is where an Hadith goes through textual analysis and criticism. Determining the addresees mind in its socio-historical and scio-political context.

No Hadith should contradict the Sunnah and the Quran. Some would disagree. Some even beleive the Sahih bukuri is as authentic as the Sunnah and Quran.

because i was not there when all the action took place i will not worry about the fann-i-riwaayat At this moment the only method left to determine the soundness of a Hadith is Fann-i-Daraayat and its agreement with the Quran.

now let us look at

this

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was on the way, he found a thorny branch of a tree there on the way and removed it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him."


This truely Contradict the qualification of forgiveness

Q. Ch4 (the women)

173) Then as for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace; and as for those who disdain and are proud, He will chastise them with a painful chastisement. And they shall not find for themselves besides Allah a guardian or a helper


I am will be waiting

It seems as if you did not read this post

Well the above represent a phenominal Contradiction and Olabowale was not in denial of this.

The hadith must never contradict the Quran but the above does.

Can you tell me why?

If not it is either Bukari was a very big Liar or the quran is a Fraud.

I will have more but if you give me an answer on this i will be very happy.

If it is your type of being "born again" I will never and I am not

A born again that have no outward and inward evidence where our words are not seasoned with salt.

@Abuzola
That means that there is contradiction of Sahih bukari do you have another Ahaadith (the saying and action of Mohamed) that dont contradict?

I might become a Muslim very quick

@Olabowale

which Ahaadith would you like us to use since you dont agree.

Emmy jp Oh you are spoiling my debate.

2 muslims were just disagreeing and agreeing.

I knew either Olabowale or the other guy would come to his rescue

Back to Abuzola

You and I agreed that the Sahih bukari is the correct Hadith why are you BACKSLIDING Like my Name.

@olabowale stay out of this

How does the simple action of removing a thorny thing of f the path, and the reward is reward of forgiveness, is contradicting Chapter 4 verse 173? Is thanking and forgiving not acts of appreciation, Mercy? Is the act of removing a thing that may create difficulty for the people that will come in contact with it, as great as the reward of receiving thanks from Allah and then being Forgiven by Him?

Ask Sahih bukari not me do I claim to be him.

It is either Sahih Bukhari is a Lie or the Quran is a Liar.

@ABUZOLA

YOU JUST QUOTED ANOTHER CONTRADICTION TO SAHIH BUKARI

YOU AND I AGREED THAT WE SHALL USE SAHIH BUKARI FOR THIS DEBATE WHY ARE YOU NOW USING ANOTHER AHAADITH?

The apostles were not sinners and they meet in houses of saints they were not sinners.
The main reason for Church is for the saints.
The mordern day backsliden church is for all and sundry.

There was a man in scripture you know what he said

"WOULD YOU ALSO LEAVE ME"

I am not any better than that person.

@abuzola

i will convert to be a muslim if you can sincerely convince me.

lets us understand that the hadith is a the tradition of the Prophet which contains his saying and it is believed taht The Prophet first forbade the writing of hadith so that people willl not confuse it with the Qur'an. He then allowed or ordered some Companions to write hadith when there was no risk of confusion.


Muslim scholars accepted a hadith as Sahih (autnetic) only when it passes

1) Fann-i-Riwaayat

This is where The Hadith is put to a sequential test i.e I said that Nigeria became a republic before it gained independence that is error


2) Fann-i-Daraayat

This is where an Hadith goes through textual analysis and criticism. Determining the addresees mind in its socio-historical and scio-political context.

No Hadith should contradict the Sunnah and the Quran. Some would disagree. Some even beleive the Sahih bukuri is as authentic as the Sunnah and Quran.

because i was not there when all the action took place i will not worry about the fann-i-riwaayat At this moment the only method left to determine the soundness of a Hadith is Fann-i-Daraayat and its agreement with the Quran.

now let us look at

this

Volume 3, Book 43, Number 652:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "While a man was on the way, he found a thorny branch of a tree there on the way and removed it. Allah thanked him for that deed and forgave him."


This truely Contradict the qualification of forgiveness

Q. Ch4 (the women)

173) Then as for those who believe and do good, He will pay them fully their rewards and give them more out of His grace; and as for those who disdain and are proud, He will chastise them with a painful chastisement. And they shall not find for themselves besides Allah a guardian or a helper


I am will be waiting

@abuzola

So you will take all what Salih bukari says right?

skyone:
Good, and it means by asking me the question[i] is Queen redeemed or not [/i] makes it clear to me that you clearly believe that Pastor Adeboye is purely redeemed which is good as well.

Well I have not said that he is redeemed or not here. He may be redeemed (the redemption by the blood)but that is not what this post is all about. The post is about the function of the Church of the Ecclesia.

skyone:
Secondly, if you believe Pastor Adeboye is redeemed then dont you think he has the free mode to initiate the building of large a auditorium which now serves as a road to salvation for millions of people. Let me tell you, Love is having great concern about your fellow human beings not just giving money to the poor.

you are right to some extent but to build a big building is Spiritual Irresponsibility of the highest order. Giving succour to the poor is having great concern for the poor. There is no aspect of love that is intangible. You must see love. You take money from people and you use to build big building this is called the religion of the GOLDEN CALF

Now Read

Exodus 32
1And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

2And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.

3And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.

4And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

5And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

6And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.
7And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

If you annalyze the passage above you will see the hearts of the people were still in Egypt. if you read your post you will see your self comparing A general in the army of God to a Civillain.

The church is supposed to be the example of selflessness. I have some many quotes but i will leave you with these

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The building is not neccessary


John 4
21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Josephus a Jewish historian.

wrote

Josephus speaks of the house to house fighting that occurred:

[b]These Romans put the Jews to flight, and proceeded as far as the holy house itself. At which time one of the soldiers, without staying for any orders, and without any concern or dread upon him at so great an undertaking, and being hurried on by a certain divine fury, snatched some what out of the materials that were on fire, and being lifted up by another soldier, he set fire to a golden window, through which there was a passage to the rooms that were round about the holy house, on the north side of it. As the flames went upward, the Jews made a great clamour, such as so mighty an affliction required, and ran together to prevent it; and now they spared not their lives any longer, nor suffered anything to restrain their force, since that holy house was perishing . . . thus it was the holy house burnt down . . . Nor can one imagine any thing greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman Legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamour of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword . . . the people under a great consternation, made sad moans at the calamity they were under . . . Yet was the misery itself more terrible than this disorder; for one would have thought that the hill itself, on which the Temple stood, was seething hot, as full of fire on every part of it.[/b]

skyone:
A lot of people need to be redeemed first before they can be fed and after they are fed they will also feed another who is lost and hungary; hence not only hungary for food but hungary for God. HE SAID But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you Luke 12:31.

The Church Premises is not for sinners. That is the Church is for the gathering of saints. You can have a revival for weak Christians, sinners and backsliders. if you were Hungry and I preached to you and you know I had the means to help you and some idol worshippers came to you and gave you food and house free.

you would immediately want to know that god that the idol worshipper worships that does not have to know much about you or even preach to you before you beleive even though they lead to destruction.

If the church says all men and women should come for free food and housing in nigeria dont you know that the problems we have would almost be solved?

skyone:
It is no good if you continue to feed a child and you do not teach him or her on how to catch a fish, not good at all. This magnificient auditorium has saved many and teach many millions on how to feed for themselves and become a trainer in the process. Today an average RCCG member is to a certain degree comfortable.
So stop mixing the full responsibility of a government with church.

To teach and to feed are not mutually exclusive. You can teach and feed at the same time. Can you teach a dead man how to fish? This is where our problem is the responsibility is the Church Read

Matthew 25:31-46 (King James Version)

31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

( You did not say have faith and just believe alone there was action of Love )
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

( It did not say you are a Lazy man you want to reap where you did not sow )
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

(it did not say receive your healing!) and just leave at that
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

We are saved by this acts. Can you imagine We have a whole book dedicated to the Acts of the Apostle. just let us look for where they built any big building.

To be redeemed is to be free from the Command control of sin(the only potent power satan has over man) and the consequences, which we can only receive by faith in the Lord Jesus.

This is the innitial step.

After this we can safely say you the soul has been redeemed. but now we need to live for our redeemer so we must  BRING FRUITS that meet for Repentance

So that if you are a

1) killer kill no more
2) Liar lie no more
3) Thief steal no more
etc etc

Now the bible does not wants to make this law no way but because we love our redeemer we must not sin or we cannot sin. now leaving that, as a christian our duty is to Show mercy to people with a pure heart not wanting any reward in heaven or earth.

We can not give back the amount of love Jesus gave us but we can endeavour to give back love and care not expecting any praise of man or God. The bible calls it our reasonable service.  

The Christian is called to serve with or without pay.

He is saved Sanctified and then filled with the holy ghost and power

microgiant:
Matthew 7:20-24
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock

Be wise

Ye wisdom crieth.

When one is studying the bible one must put aside his own wisdom.