₦airaland Forum

DoctorAlien:
That's appeal to ignorance.

Bye.

As usual when you have nothing to say the best thing is to run away. You are empty.

DoctorAlien:
AgentOfAllah,

Please google "four accounts, one reality" and stop asking those uninformed questions.

Mary went with the company of women, but as they neared the sepulchre, she saw the stone rolled away and she left the rest and ran to inform Peter and John who were probably in nearby Jerusalem.

Where was this written in the gospel? Or did you just form your own gospel?

DoctorAlien:
dalaman,

I have every cause to believe that you didn't properly read that piece.

Or maybe you're lying just like atheists do to appear credible. Please where did Luke say the disciples were together?

Where did they write in the text that the disciples were separated? Where was Jerusalem or Bethany mentioned anywhere in the story? Where was it written that the women went separately to the tomb? Where?

felixomor:
have u heard of "Argumentum ad Ignorantum"

A fallacy that says because something is not written, it is wrong or so so is right.

Please educate yourself. because You are very guilty of that fallacy.

If something is not written it is simply not written. If I write a story and said MR A went to pint A. Saying that maybe Mr A went to point B which I never wrote about is adding to the story and that is the real fallacy.

DP

felixomor:
Ordinary Simple one line question,
Look at u, wobbling in paragraphs as usual.

As far back as primary school, we were taught importance of adjective of time.
But u have allowed atheism to cloud your memory. And yet call us liars.

people like u think the whole book of Luke took place in 5 minutes.

Thats porous.

If u cant tell me the difference between those two sentences I gave u above with yes or no.
It simply shows ur dishonesty.

please continue the cycle:

get caught ===> write another 2/3 paragraphs and generate another question ======> get caught again =======> Generate another paragraph

You started from Mark to Luke
Now u r in John

When u get to Revelations, let me know.
Shalom

Where in any part of the bible was it written that the ladies separated? Where was it written that the disciples were not together? Where was it written that Mary Magdalene was separated from the other women? Where? The guy was busy using maybe, probably, assuming, of my suppositions are true etc and you are hearing talking thrash. Where was any of his maybes and probably written inside the bible. He is just adding his own made up tales and lies to explain absurdity away. Why is he adding to what wasn't written? Use your own opened memory and tell me how the women discovered that Jesus body was not in the tomb as reported by Mark and explain the inconsistency with Luke.


Luke didn't happen in 5 mins but maybes, probably and I think is not the way to go. Anybody can use his or her own maybes, probably and assumptions as well. The author isn't the only person with wild assumptions.

felixomor:
You dont know what "fail" means.


"I told all eleven"

vs

" I told all eleven at once, in one place"

Are these 2 sentences the same?

When they came back it said they told all 11 disciples what happened. The writer of the article was all over the place trying to lie that Peter and John were in Jerusalem, while the others were in Bethany. He even suggested that the women divided, He also claimed that perhaps Mary Magdalene was separated from the other women and her John and Peter were in a different location.

Where does any of this appear in the bible? WHERE? Why is the apologist forming his own gospel? Why is he lying?

Obviously he has to tell lies and invent lies just to explain absurdities away.

The text in Luke says group of woman went to the tomb discovered that the tomb was missing, as they were wondering two men appeared and told them Jesus had risen, they now went back and told the disciples what they saw.

John said Mary Magdalene went to the tomb discovered missing body came and meet Peter and John told them and they came together to see.
This gospels were written decades apart and were not written by eye witnesses. They were written by Christians based on a hear say oral tradition. They were not written on the ground that all four will be someday put inside a book for comparison.

Lie as much as you can but those stories can not be harmonized with out more lies of "perhaps", "maybe", "assuming", " probably", "if muysuppositions are correct "and many other lies and assumptions that the original writers did not say.

DoctorAlien:
Well, it appears I can't really post a link to that article here on nairaland.

Simply google search "four accounts, one reality."

Cc: dalaman

I just read it. Just the normal apologetics. The author tried to harmonize the 4 different accounts but failed because he had to omit some parts of the narrative and fill it with word like "Maybe" , "Perhaps ", " If my supposition is true" "Probably" and so many other wild assumptions.

He started by saying that the disciples were not all together. He claimed that maybe Peter and John were not together with the others but were located else where probably in Jerusalem as he wrote, he then used that assumption to explain away the wild card in John. He insisted the people in the tomb were two angels. And used his supposition filled with maybes and assumptions to conclude that things ought to have happened in a certain way. For example that maybe the women broke into two groups and other suppositions.

Let me just burst his bubble. The bible clearly says in the book of Luke that all the disciples were together. That alone destroys every other assumption and supposition of his.

Luke says that after the women left the tomb they went and meet the 11 disciples and told them what they saw, this alone destroys his assumption and supposition that Peter and the other disciple were not together with the rest.

Luk 24:8
Then they remembered his words.
Luk 24:9
When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others

This much is very clear. When the women came back according to Luke they told all the 11 and others the things they were told by the 2 men they meet inside the tomb. Unless is Peter and the John were not part of the Eleven which they were . His supposition that Peter and the other disciple were at a different location has been debunked by Luke.

These narratives are internally inconsistent. The apologist tried to harmonized them buy has failed obviously.

4everGod:
You and dalaman are obviously plucked from the same tree

John 20:21-24English Standard Version (ESV)

21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

Before you talk about the forgiveness of sins there is that premise in bold. Can you tell me what God sent Jesus to do in the World? Lets clear that up first then we can now freely tackle the forgiveness of sins. Can i have your answer.

They are to spread the message of God and to also forgive sins as well. What are you on about?

DoctorAlien:
dalaman,

Follow this link and stop asking those uninformed questions.

Which link? There is nothing there.

felixomor:
My bro,
In John 20:12, the account given there is the 2nd time visit by the women and the disciples.

Luke 20:24 is the first time visit by the women before they went to call the disciples to come and see.

If Luke is the first time visit, then the two men they met ibside the tomb had already told them that Jesus had resurrected and that they should go and tell his disciples which they did according to Luke.

If John is the second visitation then why does the narrative say that they still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead after they went in and saw that his body was missing? When they saw that his body was missing they went back to where they were staying while one of the women cried. In Luke the two men told them Jesus had risen and they were to go and tell his disciples. If John's account is their second coming as you claim then why did they show complete ignorance of Jesus's resurrection? It says when the angels saw the woman crying they asked her why she was crying and she told them that they has stolen the body of Jesus. Even when Jesus appeared to her she thought he was a gardener and asked him if he was the one that took his body. If that was their second coming why did they display such ignorance when they were clearly told in their first coming that Jesus had already risen from the dead?

John only talked about one Woman and not a group of women. When shw went to the tomb and discovered that it was opened she ran back to tge disciples . She came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
She went with a message that they had taken Jesus body and they don't know where they had taken it to. How does that square with the message in Luke that says they were to go and tell disciples that Jesus had already risen from the dead by the two men they saw inside the tomb?

felixomor:
Bros, abeg let me discuss peacefully with those who care to show honesty.

. What is the dishonest in my question?

felixomor:
Yes. I agree.
All be it description from different camera views and chronologic perspective,
Yes.

How did the women realize that Jesus body was missing in Mark? Can it be reconcilied with the account in Luke?

felixomor:
U see ur long stories have started?
I simply told u bring out two single sentences from Luke and Mark from Bible that oppose each other or that cant coexist.

(Please read all my lines)

I gave yout two stories that are inconsistent and you are asking me for words. The stories are inconsistent, end of story.

felixomor:
Quiet bros.
Mutually "Inconsistent" statements cant co-exist.

One must be false so that the other can be true. And vice versa.

I have already shown you how the 3 accounts are mutually inconsistent. Mark said the angel told them Jesus had risen and showed them where they laid his body as evidence that he had risen. Luke said they entered and discovered that his body wasn't there and as they were wondering two men appeared and told them that he had risen. John went wild with a totally different narrative of how the women saw that his body was missing and ran to call his disciples . When they came only one of them saw two angels and Jesus Himself appeared to her there in the tomb.

felixomor:
So state one of Luke sentence that is opposite to another sentence from Mark.

No long story, please
(And please read all my lines before replying)

It doesn't have to be opposite. As long as it is inconsistent it is contradictory. According to the definition inconsistency is also a meaning of contradiction. I have already shown the inconsistencies.

felixomor:
After quoting Matthew 21 with 71 verses?

Just the way you mentioned yourself in the OP.

felixomor:
Please paste it from dictionary. Thanks and state the reference.

Contradiction.

adjective
1.
asserting the contrary or opposite; contradicting; inconsistent; logically opposite:
contradictory statements.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/contradictory

felixomor:
Define "contradiction".

Mutually opposed or inconsistent.

LiberaDeus:
Guys why are we even focused on just Mark and Luke.

You have forgotten the gospel of John that says Jesus appeared to the women outside the tomb and told them to wait because he hasn't gotten to the father yet.

Oya let professional Olympic standard Christian gymnasts[ apologists] come and do their stunts.

John's account is completely different. In his account the women ran back and called some of the disciples of Jesus when they discovered that the body was missing inside the tomb. They all came and saw for themselvss that hia body was missing, one of the women saw two angels before seeing Jesus Himself standing there. The one man had turn to two angels in John.

felixomor:
Suit urself.

Even kids reading this thread would wonder why u r again reproducing what was clearly written inside the article.
Especially after defining what "contradiction" is.

Let's look at the obvious contradiction. Mark said when they entered the tomb, the man they saw told them that Jesus had risen. He then went ahead and showed them where they laid his body as evidence to show them he had risen. The discovery wasnt made by them.

Luke on the other hand said that the women discovered that the body wasn't there and as they were wondering two men appeared and told them that Jesus had risen.

So the question is did the women discover the missing body on their own or where told by the man they saw? It can't be both.

felixomor:
Mark never mentioned the total census of men in the tomb.
Neither did Luke.

If u cant spot that, then I dont think we r on same grammatical platform.
Its unfortunate, I am beginning to decipher the age gap between us. It appears very wide
Hence these types of back and forth talk.
Sad.

Mark told you the number of people the women saw. They saw one man. Luke said 2 men appeared. Both narratives were very different. While the man in Mark spoke to them as the entered and told them that Jesus had risen and showed them where he was laid as evidence to show he had risen, the two men in Luke appeared after the women noticed that the body wasn't there .

In Mark it was the man that told them that the body wasn't there while in Luke they discovered that the body wasn't there on their own before the two men appeared. Two very inconsistent tales.

felixomor:
Please how old are you?
Let me know please.

How many men where in the tomb according to Mark? 3, 4, 6 , 10? How many?

felixomor:
Mark never said "only one man" was in the tomb.

Guy please go and work on your English language abeg. Or stick to your native dialect.
Honest advice to u.

I will leave it there.

So how many people were in the tomb according to Mark? Someone reported that a group of women entered a place a saw a man whom they interacted with. If they saw more than one person inside the tomb Mark would have indicated it. Remember he was telling you what the women say when the went in.

If I enter into a room and see one man and I report seeing one man while giving my narrative, I must not say that I saw one man only.

felixomor:
The question asked was "how many men were in the tomb?"
Not "how many men were seen by the women?"

I know u didnt see that because
Its obvious u didnt even read the article.

And if u cant decipher the difference between these 2 questions, then sorry.

Besides, ur point, is even so well thrashed in the article.
U didnt bother to read the article.

Mark reports that there was only one man inside the tomb. Luke says two men ,while John says two angels were in the Tomb. Each was very clear. Mark says when they entered the tomb they saw one man. Luke says when they entered and did not see the body and were perplexed two men appeared beside them. John has a complete different narration.

Nothing in the article thrashed my point. The 3 very different accounts are all there. In Mark it was the man they saw when the entered the tomb that told them that Jesus had risen, he then went ahead and showed them where his body was laid as evidence to show that he wasn't there. But in Luke when they entered the tomb they didn't see the body and were wondering about it before two men appeared and told them that he had risen. In Luke they discovered the body was missing on their own unlike in Matk where it was the man that told them that the body isn't there and showed them where it was laid as evidence to show he was risen. John has a very wild and different account from the other two which included Jesus male deciples also coming to the tomb. Very different and inconsistent accounts.

The problem with christian apologist is that they use words out of stories and twist them to give them lives of their own.

For example the OP seems to suggest that as the women "entered"the tomb something happened and as they were "perplexed" some thing else happened. But that is not true, all you need to do is read the entire story and see the inconsistencies in them.

Let's start with Mark:

Mar 16:1
When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body.
Mar 16:2
Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb
16:3
and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
Mar 16:4
But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away.
16:5
As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
Mar 16:6
“Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him.
16:7
But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’ ”
Mar 16:8
Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.


Mark says as they entered the tomb, they saw a man in white robe who told them that Jesus had risen , and that he is going ahead of them to Galilee so they are to go and tell his desciples. The women left in fear and did not say anything to anyone. In Mark the women did not even notice that Jesus body was missing, as they entered they saw a man who told them Jesus had risen, the man was the one that even showed them where Jesus body was laid. They on their own did not notice that his body was missing according to Mark.

Now here is the report from Luke:


On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb.
Luk 24:2
They found the stone rolled away from the tomb,
Luk 24:3
but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Luk 24:4
While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them.
Luk 24:5
In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead?
Luk 24:6
He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee:
Luk 24:7
‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”
Luk 24:8
Then they remembered his words.
Luk 24:9
When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others

As you can see its quite different. In Luke the entered into the tomb did not find the body and while they were wondering about it two men suddenly appeared and told them that has has risen. They came back and told his disciples. This is very different from Mark, in Luke they entered and did not find the body and they where perplexed before two men suddenly appeared to them.
In Mark they entered saw a man who told them that Jesus had risen and showed them where Jesus was laid. They didn't even notice the body wasn't there unlike in Luke. Unlike Mark where they did not say anything to anyone, in Luke they told the 11 and others what they saw.

Then here is a completely different narration from John. Completely different.


Jhn 20:1
Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance.
Jhn 20:2
So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!”
Jhn 20:3
So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb.
Jhn 20:4
Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.
Jhn 20:5
He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in.
Jhn 20:6
Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there,
Jhn 20:7
as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.
Jhn 20:8
Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed.
Jhn 20:9
(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Jhn 20:10
Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.
Jhn 20:11
Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb
Jhn 20:12
and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
Jhn 20:13
They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?” “They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.”
Jhn 20:14
At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
Jhn 20:15
He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?” Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”
Jhn 20:16
Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
Jhn 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’ ”
Jhn 20:18
Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: “I have seen the Lord!” And she told them that he had said these things to her.


To claim that these accounts are not inconsistent and contradictory is to just lie to your self.

HCpaul:
Lol..... I am kinda restricted to typing naw

Maybe later sha

My journey ain't bad though but I need people that will be ready to view things in my perspectives.

Happy new year all the WAY

OK, I'll really love to hear your story. Happy new year.

DoctorAlien:
dalaman,

Follow this link for a clarification on John 20:23, and its unity/harmony with the with the rest of the Bible.

PASTORAIO pls follow the link and tell me what you think of it. Christian apologist and their mental gymnastics.

4everGod:
Does the verse not also say AS THE FATHER HATH SENT ME SO I ALSO SEND YOU?

What were they sent to do?

They were sent to do what Jesus told them in the verse.

4everGod:
Listen very carefully....Sin is a choice and so is confession of sin.

Anyone who continues in sin and is forgiven without repentance is not forgiven. Forgiveness is only absolute when there is a conscious act of repentance which is why the apostles were asked to go and preach. Preaching has to do with the gospel and the gospel is meant to bring repentance and when men embrace the gospel and repent then they are forgiven.

Jesus clearly said "As the Father has sent me, I am sending you". God sent Jesus to reconcile men unto HIM ny revealing God to them in HIMSELF. Now he is sending the disciples to also reconcile men unto God by declaring the good news which is Jesus and that good news is meant to save. Can you save he who does not want to be saved? Therein comes choice to retain sin or confess and forsake it in repentance which is where they can forgive their sins and it would be forgiven because they have fulfilled scripture.

Cherry picking scripture is dishonest Dalaman

Why are you dancing all over a very clear verse? Does the verse say that deciples have the ability to forgive sins? Yes it does, so what are you yapping on about? Men have the ability to forgive sins, the passage even goes as far as saying that if the men do not forgive people their sins their sins will not be forgiven.

Anas09:
Homo. That goes for you too. Am not responsible for your impotency. Am sorry that as a girl, i have more balls than you, so shut up

You are no girl. You are a she male. Your masculine parts are dominant. I've told you what to do that will help you make your feminine side become dominant but you've refused to listen. You have a small penis inbetween your legs. Every body knows that already. Go and look for help on how to remove it since you now want to be fully a female.

Anas09:
Won't you shut up when people are talking?

She male what is it?