who is the fellow that changed my ID? 

what a doggone shame.

why have you tried to sweep my question under the rug?

who is a saint? the answer stares at you in the bible.

Omenuko, we are men who are given to reason . . . 2 things cannot be right at the same time.

Omenuko:

How do you know they preached a different sermon if you haven't even read any of their writings?

Ignatius was born in 1491 . . . hardly an "early" church christian.

Augustine of hippo it was who said - "There is no salvation outside the church" - We know that to be biblically false.

Thomas aquinas himself was born in 1225, hardly qualifies as an "early" church christian similar to Ignatius and was a prominent believer in the false idea of mortal and venial sin . . . an idea that is unsubstantiated in the bible.

Why should i read their writings?

Omenuko:

Do you believe all of the New Testament books were written by apostles?

Sorry All were.

is this a thread on the geography of maps?

Omenuko:

Ok, let me rephrase my question. Have you ever read any writings from early church Christians (those that have not been declared saints by the Catholic Church) to get a take on how they lived and worshiped (post apostolic age)?

I've read those of Paul, Peter, James, John, Luke. The early church christians of the bible. I know what messages they preached, i know how they lived and worshipped. I know what sacrifices they went through. I've read their examples and exhortations.  Who else am i supposed to read on?

Christ's message never changes pre or post apostolic age . . . Its the same thing He preached that Paul and company preached and is the same thing i hold unto. Your catholic fathers preach a different sermon. no thanks, i have not even finished reading the bible.

Nah, according to Tayo-D and kobojunkie this isnt racism at all. Infact there is no racism in America.

Omenuko:

So, because they were declared saints by the Catholic Church you do no read there writings?  Am I understanding you correctly? 

I totally agree with what you are saying about saints, but I think we Catholics use the term 'saints' in two ways.  We agree that those who are followers of Christ are saints in the sense of, yes, they are being made holy by God.  So, yes we call them saints.  But we also call those who are in heaven, those who have past away and are with God Saints also.  They are saints because they have already been made holy, because they are in heaven. 

But, back to my question, do you read the accounts of early christians (post apostolic age)?

To start with there is already a fundamental problem which you seem keen to sweep under the carpet.
Where in your bible do you read of Peter (allegedly your first pope) confering "sainthood" on a select few dead apostles? 

Look again at the portion in bold . . . it doesnt seem you know much about the bible. You say these dead men are "saints because they have already been made holy because they are in heaven" . . . but that sir, is biblically wrong!

Read again - 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

1. "Unto the church of God which is at corinth" - indicates Paul was speaking to people who were here on earth not in heaven.

2. It says these brethren have been sanctified (made Holy) in Christ Jesus - you don't need to wait to get to heaven to be made Holy, Christ has already sanctified you through His blood once you become saved here on earth.

These are FUNDAMENTAL ISSUES you can't just keep ignoring. they form the basis for whether i will waste my time reading the writings of your early christians. It is impossible to read two diametrically opposite ideologies and not be confused. I choose not to be confused.

Omenuko:

I agree with you that all those who are in Christ are (in a sense) saints, but I'm talking about some of the wittings of the christian bishops, and leaders. Those who came after the apostles. Those who succeeded the apostles; those who were taught by the apostles. Do you read there writings at all?

Omenuko, we cannot glance over a fundamental problem here.
It is either your church is right and the early biblical apostles were wrong or the biblical apostles were right and your church is wrong.

Pls re-read this - 1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

It doesnt say we are called to be saints "in a sense", it says as those of us who are sanctified in Christ Jesus are automatically called (by Christ Himself not the church) to be saints. The word "saints" in reference to the entire living body of Christ (in the early church) occurs so many times in the bible that it is impossible to just assume it as an error.

Now when your own church confers "sainthood" on a select few dead church members by the pope (clearly a fundamental biblical difference), you can expect that i'd have second thots about reading the writings of these men who seem to differ so markedly from apostle Paul and his brethren.

This is an important issue that shld not be swept under the carpet if we are to have an honest tete-a-tete.

Amakaone seems to love to cook. wow! Wish my wife-to-be would love it too.

Omenuko:

@davidylan,

Ok, lets bring the tone of the discussion a few notches down. Bros, I love reading the Bible. . . .I try to read it every day and try to apply it to my life. Reading the Bible is good. I love talking about Christianity and about Jesus. I'm sure you will agree with the above. I have a question for you (I guess its a general question to non-catholic christians too), do you read the writings of early Christians (say 70AD and forward)? In other words, in addition to the Bible, do you read historical records and writings of some of the great saints (e.g., St. Augustine, St. Ignatius, St. Thomas, etc.)? Do you read historical accounts and records (in addition to the Bible) of how the early Christians lived?

No and i'll tell you why.
Again i return to my bible - 2 Corinthians 13:13 All the saints salute you.

Now i read through my entire bible and consistently every single apostle refers to the brethren (mere men like you and me) as saints. Who therefore are the "saints" that you mention? When did sainthood become a title that men confered on men?

I think that will be a good place to start.

[size=14pt]1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:[/size]

Omenuko . . . the bible couldnt be more clear. 2 things cannot be right at the same time . . .

I watched that yesterday, impressive how the reporter kept trying to make them see the stupidity behind the oft abused "we still dont know Obama" excuse. How can you not know a man who has been campaigning for 2 yrs, given tons of interviews and yet you know a woman who u merely heard of only 5 weeks ago?

If that aint racism pls wake me up from sleep.

Omenuko:

For you to sit there and castigate every little thing the Catholic Church teaches without holding yourself and your church to the same standards is hypocrisy.

I think you're confused. Because i dont see anywhere i claimed that my own church does not uphold the standards of the bible.

Omenuko:

Not once have you stated or acknowledge anything positive the Church has done.

Doing "positive things" does not matter . . . i'm sure you've read your bible well and not just as a work of history. Once you've broken one commandment you've broken all. Remember our "righteousness/positive things" are as filthy rags before the Lord.

Omenuko:

Not once have you acknowledged the Catholic Churches contribution towards propagating Christianity.

Remember this - the propagation of christianity is not something we shld glory in. It is of the Lord's doing. You are the first "christian" i have read from glorying in your "contribution towards propagating the gospel". Even Paul the apostle dared not utter such blasphemy.

Omenuko:

But yet, you use your simple minded approach and some how convince yourself that the Bible fell from the sky and authentic Christianity was not being practiced in the early centuries.

the bible didnt fall from the sky, it was penned by men inspired of the holy Ghost so that we may have examples to follow. Examples you disregard in favour of "tradition and dogma". Christianity as practiced by the apostles is what i have tried to show you in the epistles of the apostles . . . where is your own from?

Omenuko:

That's why protestant Christianity is so non-intellectual. And in many respects, anti-intellectual.

guess what the bible says about the "seemingly wise in their own conceit"? - 1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 [size=14pt]That no flesh should glory in his presence[/size].

Omenuko:

Using historical records outside the Bible (e.g., writings of saints, historical records, etc.) is ok.

It seems your entire religion is based on everything OUTSIDE THE BIBLE. What really is the bible to you as an individual?

Omenuko:

All we get from your post is menial drivel of how the Catholic Church is the LovePeddler of Babylon and blah blah blah.

I didnt even say that at all today or yesterday or last week . . .

Omenuko:

My friend, go and read the history of the Church.

Since when did the "history of the church" become more important than the precious words of Christ?

Omenuko:

My advice to you. . . read some of the writings of the early Christians (post apostolic age) and you will find that they were indeed Catholic.

I've read the writings of Paul, Peter, James, John, titus, Luke . . . none of them were catholic. Whence did your own "early christians" come from?

Omenuko:

Every thing the Catholic Church teaches is rooted in scripture.

but you just agreed celibacy wasnt rooted in scripture . . . but we know the use of the rosary isnt, but we know Mary as the "queen of heaven" isnt.

Everything?

Omenuko:

If you disagree with it fine. If you have questions ask.

I've been asking questions all day, all i get is a whole load of abuse.

Omenuko:

May the peace of Christ be with you and your family. . . .

And urs too amen. Even though you hardly ever read the words of Christ rather prefering church history which Solomon describes as a weariness to the soul.

I'm reading a blog online now and i thought some of the comments where a bit interesting:

What's funny is that these McCain/Palin supporters want to say that they dislike Barack Obama because he "associates with terrorists" and yet these same people seem to have NO problem whatsoever with the fact that Sarah Palin and her husband Todd have extremely close ties (Todd was a longtime member and Sarah has attended various events for years) of a true terrorist group, the Alaska Independence Party (AIP), who's only goal is to secede from the United States for pure hatred of the American government.

One of the more well-known statements of their founder, Joe Vogler, was "I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions. The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government. And I won't be buried under their damn flag. I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home." (en.wikipedia.org)

If Obama had even attended ONE event of a group like this, there wouldn't be a cave deep enough for him to hide in but for some reason, it's okay for Sarah Six-Pack!

Some pls tell me racism isnt alive and well.

plus_Queen:

why do I keep thinking that one day that blockhead called sarah palin will wake up and realize she's neither running for a pencil skirt contest nor some pie  baking prom queen competition in chataanooga where you can just show up as an airhead shout yeeeeeeeeeeee    hawwwwwww and parade on stage.
Can't her woman wrapper husband Todd wake up tell her
"honey,this job requires a smart man or woman and you ain't it"

aitn gonna happen, one thing Sarah Palin is well and truly aware of . . . her skin color is one reason she can get away with anything. If Obama were the one who bombed on the Katie Couric interview he'd lose this election 80%-20%.

Is this the Palin accusing Biden of “So, Joe there you go again looking back again. . .” when he talked of George Bush (who is still president by the way) now "looking forward" to 1969?

No.

Ruby_Pearl:

And you think women find senseless man favorable? shior

Shuo?  Stop am o.

RichyBlacK:

I know say you get soft spot for some of these quick-mouth babes .

But you gast to show more respect to your uncle; how far?

Uncle, see as i prostrate for you. 
No be my fault o, dem just dey resemble me abi.

n-guage:

Cut the crap off and take my name off the topic. I will always express myself whenever and wherever I want, why do you have to foam in the mouth and bang your head on your keyboard.

I have started a thread before and I do not want to start another one. Take my name off and just admit that you are confused and want people's opinions regarding God's existence or non-existence.

I am secure in my christian faith. Dont be ashamed of your own unbelief.
When you try to derail a thread claiming to "question christianity" why do you suddenly turn chicken?

n-guage:

WTF is this? If you want to open a thread, open it in your name and don't namedrop me.

You know I'm not about to waste my time arguing with Africans about the white European's religion. Africans love their Jesus sotay white man want take am back.

and that was why you were foaming in the mouth when your other posts were deleted on the other thread?

Or are you ashamed to have your name associated with your own belief? I am not ashamed of Jesus.

shut up and stop crying. You go on other threads to deliberately derail them with your wailing about God not existing. Now i open one for you to carry on your tantrums and you're acting macho? go and sit down my friend.

Hannibal maybe?

na wa, my very own honorable uncle mugu na im una dey yab so. Make una stop am o.

Uncle how far now?

n-guage, i have helped you over here - https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-181839.0.html

n-guage, you can use this thread to "question christianity".

n-guage:

David, someone is playing dirty tricks here. Remember the time you quoted me and asked a question, where is the quote now? Someone is clearly a christian freak here, and is trying to clear all evidence of me questioning Christianity.

A K O is right, there are so many threads here "questioning christianity", you can even start your own.
Allow the thread be.

I encourage women to keep calling, when he's on sabbatical from other women and needs a one-night stand he'll pity you and pick up.

janami:

Note : Success comes in diff ways. not just financial success.
The OP doesnt have to ride a limo to be successful.

my sister, i now understand u. Sorry.

janami:

Everyone has a seed of success in them. It only takes for us to realise our inheritance in Christ Jesus. We are all created in the likeness and image of God. So that is not a faith gibberish, its a biblical belief.

Mixing a little truth with the untruth does not help us here. Indeed we are created in the likeness and image of God. But where in your bible did you see the above in bold? Did Lazarus the beggar have a seed of failure in him?

It is this kind of gibberish that makes the gullible assume that financial success is a measure of how much faith they have. So the poor are those who have not realised their inheritance in Christ Jesus?

janami:

Once we become born again we automatically have access to these things, only if we but believe.

what things? The apostles were born again yet they suffered want, were shipwrecked for the gospel, were cast out into the wilderness, stoned to death . . . didnt they have access to good homes, high salary paying jobs and golden chariots?

janami:

"Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteosness and ALL THINGS shall be added unto you"

what are these "all things"?

A_K_O:

David and co.

It is quite obvious that the Catholic Church does not take the Bible as the word of God.

Or maybe it is the word of God but it is fallibe and not complete.

They see it as their compilation of historical events that Martin Luther deleted seven books out of.

It is the piece of Literature they compiled that we are now defiantly referring to on every occassion.

I was trying so hard not to come to that same conclusion. Sad but true.
to us it is the living word of truth, to them it is but a work of literature. No wonder we hear "sola scriptura" so often.

janami:

don't u know u are born a success?

that is "word of faith" gibberish.

Was Stephen born a success? why did he end up stoned to death?
Wasnt John the Baptist born a success?
What of Paul or Peter or James?

There are millions also claiming to be "born a success" . . . unfortunately there are not a million jobs. What happens to the majority who wont get jobs? They were born failures?

the bible never says you were born a financial success . . . it simply says my God shall supply ALL YOUR NEEDS (not wants) according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

OP, trust God and work hard. There are no two ways about it. If jobs are few make sure to put urself in the bracket of the few who would be more than qualified for your job. Even in the US its getting harder to get a good job with a first degree alone, go out and get more certifications or higher degrees to make you stand out . . . and God will bless the labour of your hands.