₦airaland Forum

The op, has gone underground.
If you are for real come out and answer the questions that has been thrown at you.

I can see sarcasm in your write up. You are a prankster! You won't be the first, HardMirror has done something similar before.

You created a thread and left it hoping that when you return, you would meet alot of posts from Christians that has fallen for your sarcasm, so that you can ridicule them. You are not serious.

hopefulLandlord:
Looks like your mind is made up, hence your reluctance to compare the differences and hold on to only similarities, so I'll drop Allah and God issue for my own safety because I'm very scared of Muslims, I try not to subject their faith to scrutiny if I can avoid it

However, popping up with Pascal's wager to every atheist you can is ignorance that bothers on arrogance

You are popping it up by assuming they're not aware of the wager, I'm sure 99% of atheists on NAIRALAND (emphasis on Nairaland) know about the wager but chose atheism anyway, when you pop it up its just annoying, you usually sound like they don't know it and you've just discovered a sure way of taking them to OR back to Christianity

Any atheist on Nairaland that doesn't know Pascal's wager is not to be taken seriously

Future atheists may not be aware as atheism may end up being acceptable and some people might just chose without considering it

But any atheist that argues with you on this forum is already aware of it

He has already considered the wager

So, please, look for another "groundbreaking" way other than this

But like I said, not all of us have lost faith in your god

Some of us already have faith in YOU, you have faith in your god which you said can do anything and everything

So kindly pray for us if you're sure of your god, pray to him to touch our heart and make us accept him

After all its not too big for your god to do

Arguing all day won't solve anything

P.S ignore any part of this post you find offensive, correct it on your mind's eye


Thank you

Humm, you can't answer the question, you are dropping it for your safety,
Alright i understand you.

But the part i find offensive is your use of "god" to refer to my God. That is derogatory and offensive. this is the second time i will be correcting you on this. There are many gods but one God. The word "god" is synonymous with Idol worshipers.

Pls note that, when ever you are arguing with someone that is religious (either Christian or Muslim).
You can't even try that with Muslims using "god" instead of God. you know what will happen, i won't say more than that.

So pls correct your self. you are free to use "god" whenever you are arguing or discussing with your colleagues (fellow Atheists). But not a Christian or Muslim.

hopefulLandlord:
When comparing two things, while you focus on only similarities; you're totally ignoring the DIFFERENCES I'm very sure you didn't visit ANY of the links I gave you, what is it that you're afraid of?

There are a variety of these similarities, but similarities are not as important as differences when it comes to whether two things are the same or not.

If someone says Nairaland and Facebook are the same and you want to compare them, the differences are what you'll focus more on, that they're both on the internet, both are social media etc doesn't make them the same

You focus on differences

Visit the links I gave up there and find out yourself

That they've been hammering the same thing all the time doesn't make it true

Truth withstands test of time and scrutiny


Allah and Yahweh are NOT the same

Calling them God doesn't suddenly make them the same

Bro you are really confused., you keep laying emphasis on "difference" but what can you say about (Sura 2:136; 4:163) which says the Bible is God's previous revelation? Pls which God is the Quran referring to here?

Continue living in your state of confusion and deluded mind.

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hopefulLandlord:
Repeating something doesn't make it suddenly truer, I'm sure Hindus would tell you there's ONLY one god and its definitely not Yahweh

You are wrong here Bro, take your time to know more about Hinduism, like i quoted in brackets in my last reply, their believe is skewed, they believe in gods not God and also reincarnation, pls go and read more about them and stop arguing ignorantly.

hopefulLandlord:
Good, funny, I placed a web and I knew you'll fall into it, you were quick to answer because I wrote Allah, Allah is different from Yahweh, if you doubt this bros, google is your friend

Actually you are the one that needs Google here, google that word and see what you will come up with. Allah in Arabic means God, so i don't know where you are getting other translations from.

And what does Muslims say about Allah and the creation of the universe.? I still don't get your point here.

If you examine the Quran and Bible, you will find some similar accounts for example the Quran also talks about Jesus (isa) and that he was born of a virgin (Sura 3:47), called the Messiah (Sura 3:45), performed miracles such as raising the dead (Sura 5:110), and bodily ascended into heaven (Sura 4:158)

It also gives similar accounts of Moses (Musa), pharaoh (firaun), Job (Ayub), Solomon (sulayman) etc. In fact it also says that the Bible is God's previous revelation (Sura 2:136; 4:163).
And Muhammad even told people to read it (Sura 5:68; 10:94).

When I said you Share the same fate with Hindu, Buddhist, etc above, i intentionally removed Muslims from the list because they are still in a better position than u guys, you guys are sitting on the fence in this matter.

hopefulLandlord:
So is Vishnu to the Hindu and Buddha to Buddhists, that Europeans suddenly started using the first letter as capital when talking about Yahweh doesn't make it any bigger, think for yourself and stop doing what you're told all the time

Bro you don't know what you are talking about. Pls try to make research and get your facts right before coming here to display your ignorance. I have talked about Hindu above.

Buddhists do not worship any Gods or God. People outside of Buddhism often think that Buddhists worship the Buddha.

However, the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) never claimed to be divine, but rather he is viewed by Buddhists as having attained what they are also striving to attain, which is spiritual enlightenment and, with it, freedom from the continuous cycle of life and death.

Bro pls make your next reply short and concise, because I'm typing on a phone and I'm really straining my self to type all this lengthy replies.

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hopefulLandlord:
Pascal's wager again, it assumes Yahweh is the true god

So what if you die and find out Allah is actually the true god? You're just as screwed as us

Bro you are still living in your state of confusion, remember our last encounter? This your points are very weak and silly this time. How many times will i tell you there is only one God?

Do you know what Allah means? If you do then you will realize your question does not make sense.

Allah means God. ask any Muslim and they will tell you that it's the God that created the universe and the things in it. And that is still the same God Christians make reference to. So what are you saying?

The only set of people you share the same fate with are the hindus(their believe is skewed), Buddhist, new age, and Idol worshipers.

Pls come up with a reasonable point if you want to argue.

HardMirror:
Lol @ perturbed. I opened the thread for sincere and open minded discussions and willingness to learn from sincere people. You have revealed a mindset that disgusts me, so post all you want. This is the last reply I am honoring you with.

Lolz, is this an indirect way of conceding defeat? Anyway it's so sad you couldn't keep-up with the argument.

I don't want this discussion to degenerate into the use of abusive words on each other, But I want you and other Atheists to know that you are taking a big risk.

Majority of you guys are agnostic, you are not dead sure that God does not exist, so why play with risk? Why gamble with your eternity?

What if when you die you find out God exists? How do you want to sort your self out? And i hope you know what each and every religion teach about the fate of those who do not believe in him (God) and the dire consequences they will face?

So why not play safe? Let me leave you with this wise words that has been quoted several times on this forum before :

It says why not live your life as if there is a God and after death find out there is none then you don't lose anything rather than live like there is none and end up discovering there is one? Then face the dire consequences.

Meanwhile you may also read the comment by physicist Conn Henry on my profile. I implore all Atheist on this thread to do the same.

HardMirror:
You make a lot of sense.
At this point everyone can choose what he wants to. It makes sense that a creator created things in order to survive on each other and it also makes sense that things evolved depending on each other. Examining the idea of an intelligent creator would require finding the origin of such a creator for such a creator too can't be a product of chance. So where does that leave us?

I am feeling you. Ride on

I know where you are going, your question simply means, "if God created everything, then he too must have been created then who created God?"

I can't believe you are still asking this question, because it has been raised several times on this forum and it has been dealt with.

Answering that question will lead to an infinite regression of causes. If we go by the law of cause and effect.
God is eternal, he caused time to exist so that the law of cause and effect will hold thus there will be consequences for every action taken.

God is not bound by the dimensions of space and time thus he doesn't need to be created, it's only something that is bounded by time that needs to be created.

The Bible also attest to the eternal nature of God. Only that you choose not to believe the Bible.

I will refer you to a topic that once made FP for more details.
Search for:

"if God created everything, who created God?"

HardMirror:
You just fvcked up big time.
Would have made sense for you to keep making your points and asking questions. I was really enjoying the flow. Don't expect any reply from me anymore not with this attitude.

Bro relax, why are you perturbed?
Meanwhile let me answer ur question above.

KingEbukasBlog:
Good job bro. Keep pushing him till admits he does not know but then he'll disappointingly end it with "...but its not God" . Oh well

Don't mind him, i know when i push him to the wall, that is what he will eventually say.

HardMirror:
Beautiful.
These are the questions I relish.

When you look around and study nature closest to you, you would notice that everything seems to survive on what is immediately available to them.

You can either look at this as a proof that these organisms were designed to survive on each other OR you could choose to see them as evolving to make use of what is immediately available to them.

Eg why should carnivores exist? It would have been simpler to have herbivores only. But carnivores have to chase their prey and struggle to kill them before they can feed. So why have carnivores?
For one, digestion of meat is far more easier than digestion of vegetation.

So the way I see it, every organism has evolved to survive on what is immediately available.

Plants evolved before animals. By the time animals were evolving oxygen was abundant, thanks to the plants and the easiest thing to feed on was the plants. Process of extracting energy out of the starch in the plants means animals would need oxygen so it was natural that animals evolved to breath in oxygen to enable this digestion to be possible.

So our dependence on each other is due to our history. We are all related. Even animals to plants and we all make use of what is available to survive.

Your explanation still doesn't disprove the believe of creationists. Let's look at it practically, As a Creator if you want to create a living thing, let's say man for example, which of the things currently in existence would you create first?

Definitely you would have to create the things he will need to survive first, i can't create man before creating plants for instance because he won't survive.

So your idea of something evolving on what is available to survive is still justified by the idea of creationists. (You were formerly a Christian and you know the sequence of creation in Genesis)

Thus the explanation you gave still doesn't rule out the existence of an intelligent mind(God) behind creation.

HardMirror:
Why do you thinks what we have now is not chaos?

If I scattered letters of the alphabets on the floor, you have words like.


Hgjdeid

Saghsy

Owuyewtyek

Sdh

Siuwty

Sduswayu

Lkjdui

To you these words may not make any sense because your mind has been trained to expect some words you are familiar with.

But really those random words make sense if we choose to give them meaning. The words I type in english only makes sense to you because we gave them meaning.

So there can be order in disorder.

What makes you think clay or water are not alive in their own way? What makes you think dust and stone are not alive in their own way?

you only partially understand the world you think you understand. In reality it is possible that there is nothing like chaos.

Let me shed more light on what i meant by chaos in that context.

In the absence of chaos, there is orderliness, like i said, take a look around you and see things for yourself.
Examples to prove orderliness in nature are many let me sight some of them:
-day and night sequence
-seasons
-water cycle

-planets in orbits (note how accurate/orderly it is for Kepler to generate laws and equation for it.)

-DNA sequence
-food chain (note the cycle living things go through, its so well planned that everything is utilized, and becomes food to the other)
And many more..

A system in chaos can not have any of those listed above

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HardMirror:
Absolutely! Death is a fascinating subject. I want to enjoy life as long as possible and I want my life to be pleasant.
Everything will "die" even the sun. Even the planets. Our life and death are all necessary. If plants don't die, how would I have food to eat? If animals don't die how would plants have food to eat?

I have been carefully following your replies to tempem, but after reading this particular one, i felt the urge to cut in.

You said, everything will die, agreed. But there is something you are not sensitive enough to note, or chose to ignore. In the latter part of your reply above, haven't you noticed the cycle and intricate interdepence in nature?

Pls how can we account for those cycles and interdependence if an intelligent mind is not behind it? If everything came into being by chance and not by design as science believe, then the earth and the universe at large would be in a state of chaos.

Just take a look around you and see the orderliness in nature.

I can see the evidence of a creator!

This old motherboard, while probably
not as fancy and complex as the modern Macbook Air, it is still quite a complex little creation.

Leave this complex, organized material alone for 10 to 15 years and what do we have? A piece of machinery that is falling apart . It’s becoming more unorganized , more disorderly. This is called the Law of Entropy (aka The Second Law of Thermodynamics).

“Nature tends to bring things to disorder. That is, with time, things naturally fall apart. Your car falls apart; your house falls apart; your body falls apart… But if the universe is becoming less ordered, then where did the original order come from?”

In short, the universe cannot organize itself because it’s moving towards disorder. Therefore, the universe had a beginning and a Beginner who must have done the initial organizing .

Check out this old computer motherboard

It sure looks like ancient Greece doesn’t it?!

But there’s something else I see there.....…

Guess what?

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Vendoor:
Most men just want sex not baby... A lot of them aren't ready to father a baby. Its too much of responsibility for some, So they either deny you or run away.

@the boldened, that is quite correct, that is how the male system has been wired. Not only in humans, male species generally.

But any man that denies a lady after having carnal knowledge of her and getting her pregnant in the process, is a beast and irresponsible.

I have seen that depicted in several movies and have also heard of several practical cases, I just don't know why some guys want to tarnish the image/reputation of the male folk, just because of their carelessness and irresponsible nature.

NB,
@the boldened note the use of "guys" in that context.

[quote author=bitchcrafts post=47179986][/quote]*modified, pls refresh

[quote author=bitchcrafts post=47179986][/quote]U suddenly went silent? I challenge you again to dispute me with credible medical/biological facts to support your claim.

Do you know how many ladies have read that and kept silent? They know it's the fact hence they couldn't disprove it. And mind you they are the ones at the receiving end so they know much better than you as a man.

I dare any lady who is bold and sincere enough to dispute those facts. And I mean real ladies, not the jobless pervert guys that use female monikers.

bitchcrafts:
lools, your thinking shoes is too small for me, so keep it to yourself OR you could go back to my little submission and quote me in full without cropping anything out, then we can discuss like civilised human beings .

you are very funny, do you want to
argue with medically researched facts?

Which one do you want to dispute? Is it that of testosterone or circumcision?

.

hopefulLandlord:
why not just pray to your god to touch my heart?

My god? What do you mean? That is derogatory. I keep saying it, do not be deceived, there is only one God., which is the one that created the universe.

There can be several gods but only one God. Note the upper case there and stop saying 'my god'
that goes for Idol worshipers.

hopefulLandlord:
but dejideji, rather than preach to me about Christianity. why not just pray to your god to touch my heart? I mean, many people have Personally preached to me many many times over the years

.

.

just do that if you're so interested in getting me back to the Christian fold

I still insist you consider the risk.

Weigh your options. A word is enough for the wise.

hopefulLandlord:
my religious life is gone, ignore the fact that I was a former Christian
.

.

please, don't engage me personally

.

face the discussion at hand, this is Theism vs Atheism

.

keep it that way beacuse there's NOTHING new you can say to me, not underrating you, just the truth

Alright Bro, but consider the risk.,

hopefulLandlord:
I could've engaged you further but you're too inexperienced in this for me
.

I'm not insulting you though

.
its just the truth

.
you're not even debating atheism vs theism

you're debating Christianity vs atheism

that's where you're lacking experience in discussions like this

.

all Muslims according to your logic are going to hell, right?

a Muslim is a theist FYI

Bro, you make me laugh with this comment, you can't engage further? too inexperienced? Is that a way of conceding defeat?

For the second part of your reply, it seems like you didn't pay close attention to the details in my first post. Else you won't tag this "Christianity vs atheism Debate" .

This is a personal chat between you and I, and you stated it clearly that you were formerly a Christian so I had to engage you based on that.

hopefulLandlord:
It's not a religion or worldview.. It's just a position on the existence of a god. I didn't become an atheist to "gain" anything.. I became an atheist because I'm not convinced that a god exists, if you become an atheist because you think you're going to get some reward you're going to be extremely disappointed.

Bro most of you guys here on NL that I have encountered are agnostic Atheists and you have also confirmed you are one

You are not dead sure that God doesn't exist, so why play with risk? Why gamble with your eternity?

hopefulLandlord:
Pascal's wager (which you're referring to) has too many holes and just straightforward defines God as Yahweh, what if after serving that god, you die and find out Vishnu is the one true God? aren't you in just as bad a situation as you think I would be? think about it and there are many Gods all over the world, your chances of getting the right one is 1/x; x being total number of Gods in the world

This is quite ridiculous of you, how many Gods created the universe and everything in it? Bro don't be deceived, there is only one God.

I can see you have read some mischievous materials online because i can see some funny names up there, and this is one of the problems we have to cope with in this modern day of information explosion. But I insist, do not be deceived.

hopefulLandlord:
That's how you imagine an atheist life?
you're guessing wrong bro, many religious people do those same things and still go to mosque or churches and still believes in God, it cuts across whether you're theist or atheist, moral and religion has to be separated even though they're somehow intertwined.

@the boldened, stop deceiving your self those people are not serving God sincerely even the Bible said on the last day some people will say:

didn't i cast out demons in your name and did other great works in your name? And he will tell them depart from me ye workers of iniquity for i know you not. and they will be cast in to the lake of Fire

Look Bro, it's only God that knows who is truly serving him, so don't be surprised if some so called pastors don't make it.

hopefulLandlord:
let me speak for myself because I can't speak for all atheists
I haven't changed for the bad in ANY way, in fact some people when they learn of my atheism usually look surprised because I'm total opposite of what they expect an atheist to be
.

I'm not blowing my horns here but a neighbour of mine once tried to convert me and raised a similar point about atheists wanting to engage in vices with no one to answer to

I asked him a sincere question and said his god is listening so he should give me a sincere and truthful answer
.

the question went thus : is there any bad behaviour of mine you observe and think that the avera Christian doesn't engage in?
.

he said right there that there's none as far as he can see
.

there might be atheists that became atheists so they can engage in vices but don't paint all atheists with the same brush
.

there's absolutely NO difference between the worst behaved atheist and the worst behaved theist
.

and there's absolutely NO difference between the best behaved atheist and the best behaved theist

Bro let me tell you something you may not know, you can do all the good in this life, but as long as you do not acknowledge God your creator or belong to any institution that acknowledges God, you are merely wasting your time because he doesn't know you.

In fact Jesus made it clear that if you deny him here on earth he will also deny you in heaven.

hopefulLandlord:
please, do tell me

You do not believe in God and the supernatural.
(You rely solely on rational thinking/logical explanation and science to approach the paranormal, which is not possible hence your conclusion that they don't exist.)

[quote author=hopefulLandlord post=47167406][/quote]*modified

hopefulLandlord:
we now have a "belief system"?
.

It's like you don't understand the" believe system" that physicist was talking about. You know your believe system as an atheist. Or you want me to tell you?

[quote author=hopefulLandlord post=47164208][/quote]Bro i have read some of your comments and i can see your frustration. But I have some questions for you, and afterwards pls read what follows patiently.

1. What do you want to gain by being an Atheist or what do you want to achieve?

2. What is the meaning of life? Does it have any meaning?

For the second question above, we are all passing time on this earth right? since death is inevitable and everyday we are getting closer and closer to our death.

So what will you lose being a Christian because from your comments i can see you were formerly a Christian. Since everything in life is vanity, what point are you trying to prove?

As Christians there is a hope of an afterlife no matter how vague it may seem to you. Some other religions also have this hope. But as an Atheist which hope do you have?

And like many Christians have said on this forum before, why not live your life as if there is a God and after death find out there is none then you don't lose anything rather than live like there is none and end up discovering there is one? Then face the dire consequences

And mind you, the promise of an afterlife comes with a price just like every other things. But it's not that expensive, it won't cost you money, it will only cost you your sin.

I guess that is what majority of you guys are running away from, hence hiding under Atheism to enjoy an unrestrained lifestyle.
from the little interaction I have had with some of your colleagues, i can see that most of you like to engage in fornication, drinking, smoking, partying, drugs and so many other ill acts

We all know the outcome of those practices, so what still gives you the conviction that they are right?

winner01:
Cloudgoddess will almost swear: "Atheism is biology"

I believe cloudgoddess is a biologist. Atheist biologists are the most adamant set of Atheists because they so much cling to materialism/naturalism.

according to Physicist Richard Conn Henry, An atheist must ignore, remain ignorant of, or rationalize away the insights of modern physics in order to prevent his/her belief system from collapsing....

I have put that comment on my profile for all Atheists to read.