alBHAGDADI:


This particular portion is what I always echo on this forum and no man born of a woman who claims to be against tithing has been able to counter it.

Yes these antitithers think God is like a man that changes every now and then over the ages. Thank you again.

alBHAGDADI:


I'm so surprised at those who think we tithe so that we can be on Forbes list instead of God's list.

God bless you brother, only time will tell when we pack all the rewards in heaven! Let them keep laughing and jesting at giving in the name of God. Time will come for crying and lamentation during the judgment sit of Christ.

Agrogbeide:
Since the Christians in Italy are well fed and do not pay tithe, what then do you think is their secrets to success and obtaining blessings from God than those who pay tithes in Nigeria? Are you then insinuating that you are more blessed and well fed than many of them now? It happened that way because many Christians over there have took time and studied the scriptures themselves by the leading of the Holy Spirit. Their knowledge of the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ is not hearsay unlike those in Africa.

No need of going deeper because my lovely and dear brother OKCornel has done alot in educating you on this matter.

Go and study the scripture for yourself bro because if you have done so you won't have argued that Abraham never paid tithe out of the war spoils.

OKCornel you try, I dey see your hand work.

Thanks.

God bless.

Unlike you guys who like talking without doing, I do not over spiritualized the bible or conceptualized it. Giving is not a concept that you categorize it into many forms as done in the old testament. God's Word contains laws that hold everything in the universe. It works for both believers, unbelievers, satanic agents, and even for the devils and his demons. You make spiritual the concept of giving, but if you give for any reason, whether not because it has to do with the Church, you will be blessed somehow. Everything exist by the WORD, and that explain why some people can get rich, even without eventually making it to heaven.

The Europeans pay tax to their government faithfully and that is why things work here. Those who cannot work or disadvantaged get paid by the government. The Church that I am a ridicule by that bishop, is not because he has caught some secrets as you claimed from the bible... his son is an disabled and the government is paying the father the welfare. The father also is collecting money on welfare for not working...I won't go into details what it is for...I am not interested in prying into other people's life.

I did not come from that background where we get things free. I came from Africa where things were hard for me... no mother, no father, all died early. If they feel bad that an African boy has broken their expectation by the amount he gives, then God is my helper. I have no one to help me. On the contrary, I am doing very fine in all departments, before you find anything funny, probably I am doing many times better than you.

Please know that God is going to judge us for every careless words we say.

Hello House,

That was a testimony of a tither. At one point he was crying. I have cried several times too. I am just too scared to write down all that have happened to me because miracles are inexplicable. But let me try and write down just one, I am already crying now.

I was a dropout of electronic engineering UNN many years ago. In my 3yr I had ulcer and had so many carryover I could not continue. But when I started tithing in 2009, I got an offer to study computer science free online from an American University. I graduated with two degrees...associate and bachelor. And now I am doing my Master degree in Engineering and Computer Science. I kept crying because I really tried to go back to school after I dropout but no financial aid. Now not only that I am doing Master, here in europe there is no carryover too. You cannot fail an exam. If you fail, it is never recorded! You can simply retake the exam untill you pass the way you want. If I get 86% in an exam it is because i chose to accept that pass mark! And exam can also be taken whenever you wish.

I will stop here. The miracles always make me to cry. I may say others later if God willing

Hello House, this is the testimony of P.G. Vargis (India) I found online at http://lifey.org/inspirational-tithing-stories/

P. G. Vargis (India):

Let me say my tithe story. I became a born again Christian in 1971. Next week, my Pastor asked me to sit with him for my first discipleship class. He told me about the basic things that a believer should do, which included the 5 things I mentioned above plus two more points. When he said about tithing, I knew he was interested in my money. I said in my mind, “Man, you are not going to get it from me. I will give what I can, what I can spare but NOT one tenth of my income. I can’t afford it.”

At that time, I was a soldier in the Indian Army and my pay was not much. More over my wife was expecting our first baby in a few months, in the extreme winter of Kashmir. It will bring many fresh expenses like buying coal to heat the room, clothes for the baby, post-delivery treatment of my wife etc. I could not afford to pay one tenth of my income.

Before my conversion, I was making illegal income like stealing from the army store, taking bribe, which you can call it as ‘gift’ in the Indian language. But now after my new-birth, we decided that we will not have any illegal income or gifts in our house even if we have to live on a shoestring budget.

As I was going home, my Pastor gave me a few old magazines. I love reading and so I read them. Surprisingly there was an article on tithing and giving on each of those 3 magazines. God opened my eyes to see that the pastor was not teaching me to grab my tithe for him or his ministry but for my sake, as an investment for my financial prosperity in the days to come as I walk with Him, as promised by God in the Bible.

Then I realized that I could not afford not to give my tithe if I am really interested in the financial blessings of God. Financial prosperity or self-sufficiency with reasonable prosperity was the plan of God. But to get that promise God put a condition of bringing the Tithe.

No, I was not trying to buy God’s blessings with my tithe but I was very interested to obey God and as I do that, I knew that God will do me a favor, give me back what I paid in larger quantity. I read, “When I gave one basketful to God, God gave me one basketful. And His basket is much bigger.”

My responsibility was to obey God. And it is His pleasure to give what He promised with that commandment or requirement. I decided to pay more as I am a New Testament believer saved by grace and living under grace, according to my ability as per the Bible. 2 Corinthians 9:7 “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver”.

So instead of Rs. 48, I gave 55 Rupees and let me tell you that it was a sacrificial giving. My heart rejoiced that I could be a partner in God’s evangelistic work by giving a part of my income. I was not happy but very happy, though it did hurt me to give that much money.

Next week I was in my office and I asked for a short leave to go and buy ration from the Army store. Another person sitting on the next table told me, “You are going to buy rice and wheat flour? How much rice do you want? I can give you that for just half a rupee per kilo.” Another person on the other table said, “Mr Vargis, how much wheat flour do you want? I can give it to you for 62 paise per kilo.” It was almost three times in the army store.

They told me that Govt. of India is giving wheat flour and rice to the citizens of Jammu and Kashmir at that subsidized rate and they two are working as part time accountants in different ration supply stores and so they could get me rice and wheat flour as much as I wanted.

Another sergeant from the ration supply depot came to my favor saying, ‘There is a special price for officers to buy vegetables. I can give you vegetables at their rate plus best quality coal, all at subsidized rates’.

This was a miracle. I was sitting on that table for the past two years and working with them. These two civilian clerks were my best friends. They never gave me that offer, but after I paid my tithe, God opened their hearts and my expense fell and fell to the bottom.

I was still on a limited budget but I did not lack anything. I was buying gospel of John and Soul Winners New Testament to give to every soldier coming to my office to collect stores. Then our first son Aby was born on 19thJan 1972 when it was snowing in Kashmir.

People came to see the new born. According to the custom of Jammu and Kashmir every visitor thrust some money into the small palm of our son, Rs. 1 or two (paper money). It is the culture of that land so the parents will have some extra money with them at that hour of need. But I decided not to take that money for our need but to donate it to an orphanage as a token of our gratitude for giving us a son after 4 years of marriage.

The miracle did not stop there. Later I was told that I don’t have to go to the supply depot to buy the coal, but it will be delivered in my house at no extra cost. Praise God.

Later I wanted to invite all my Hindu friends to the church on the day of the dedication of our son. I was very concerned about the money I will need to give ‘tea and snacks ‘to all the guests. It will cost over Rs. 200 and I had only Rs. 110. I prayed. Then I met a sergeant of the Army officer’s bakery and he said that he can provide everything. The total bill was 86 rupees. I tell you that it was a great miracle for me. Even now as I type this my cheeks are being washed by my tears. (In North India everyone will ask for a ‘ladoo’ or a chocolate when a boy is born. I decided to invite all my friends for the celebration to the church so they may hear the gospel message too.)

I pay my tithe. Lilly pays her tithe. All my children pay their tithe over and above 10%. We encourage you to pay your tithe – faithfully. As you pay, look at the seeds you are planting in God’s vineyard and expect a harvest. You will get it and your children will have it too.

Let me take a leaf from the life of my father. He was born in 1905 (?) in a poor family. He studied in English medium school. He had his own business even at class 3 or 4, like taking care of a lamb he had bought. That one lamb multiplied year after year. Later he started a saving scheme (chit fund) of Rs. 5 when he was in the high school. This was a large amount during those days.

Somehow he failed in the high school exam because of his attention in his business. So he decided to look for a job.

He heard that there was a vacancy of a Superintendent in a rubber plantation and he applied. When he went to meet Mr Antherper at Adoor for the interview, he knew that he was wasting his time. There were 4 others, 3 high school graduates and one Intermediate graduate which was a very high education on those days. Papa had another problem – he was stuttering person. He used to stammer while speaking in Malayalam and it was almost impossible to speak English. If he was facing strangers, he had to jump to get out of the ‘stammering mode’ and speak.

He stood before Mr. Antherper. He stammered to answer each question starting, ‘what is your name?’ For every sentence he had to jump to come out of the stammering and utter the first word and then he will speak without stopping.

When the interview was over he knew he wasted his time. After the interview, they were all sent to different areas to assess the rubber estate property and give a report, which my Papa thought that he had done well.

When he was returning on his Humber bicycle, which he bought from his ‘saving scheme collection,’ it was getting dark and he was hungry. He had already consumed the food his mother had packed for him. He wished he had a penny to buy a ‘vada,’ but his pocket was empty. He had to cycle over 10 km to his home and there was no proper road during those days. He was tired. He parked his bicycle by the road side and laid down on the grass. He remembered the Bible story his mother taught him and had read in the Bible: Jacob was in the wilderness alone and he prayed to God.

Papa, 18 years old young man at that time, sat there on his knees and prayed like Jacob, “God, I know I cannot get the job. In my own opinion I am the least of them. But God of Jacob, if you will do me a favor and give me this job, I promise you:

= I will walk with you and worship you.
= I will not touch a woman (which was a common practice of rubber estate officers of those days.)
= I will pay my tithe to you.

He is from an eastern orthodox church. During those days, not all families had a Bible. He did not know what it means to walk with God or pay tithe. But he made a covenant.

He went back. His evangelical mother told him about the Lord God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and assured him. “God can – now or later, but He will. We will pray.” He waited for his next chance.

After a week, he got a post card with the message: ‘Mr. G. Pappy, I am pleased to inform you that you are selected as the Superintendent of our rubber estate. Please report to this office on or before…. And join the duty. Signed. Mr Antherper’

The LORD God of my grandmother did it for my father.

My Papa kept his word and walked with God. At the age of 76 he got closer to God and became a Bible believing born again Christian. But let me tell you another leaf from his life.

My father was a religious Christian and did not belong to a Bible believing church. But he had faith in God which he inherited from his evangelical church member mother. He always talked about the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. He read the Bible stories as he had plenty of time after his work. He taught us the Bible stories in the evening daily family prayer. He will walk through the rubber plantation where he worked, sit at a place of his choice and pray beating his chest asking God to bless him.

One day in 1962, he heard that the neighbor was selling his 10 acres of land and going away to another city. He took me to that land when I came on my first holiday after my Army basic training. I was 20 years old and an agnostic, having a mixed faith of Hinduism, black magic, sorcery, hypnotism but very little faith in my father’s Lord Jesus. I was more of a non-Christian than a nominal Christian. I did not go to the church for years. He asked me to give the money I had so he may give advance to a small plot of that land, which is half an acre. That 10 acre land was in the names of several members of a family.

I told him that I did not have much but only just over Rs. 130 as I was indulging in bad habits and spent all the money I got. Papa thought that I must have got at least 1000. He said, “Give me that money. I will take a step of faith. And I will pray.”

At that time my father was broke due to a series of calamities that drained his bank balance.

Standing there, he prayed a long prayer, tears running over his face. “Lord God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph, you are a God who blesses your people. I am your child. I made a covenant with you like Jacob in the wilderness, when I was just 18 years old and since then you have been walking with me. I am at a crossroad. This land is for sale. I would like to buy it. Help me to buy it. I will give the one hundred rupees my son will give me as the advance payment for half an acre. Help me to buy it. Then the next half an acre or one acre. And hold an umbrella over this land so that no one else should come and buy even a portion of this 10 acre. Give me this land.” He prayed very long stretching his hand all over the land in all directions. Then he added: “When you will give me these 10 acres of land, I will pay the tithe to your work.”

And in 3 years’ time he purchased the whole 10 acres of land and more later.

He believed, he prayed and God helped him.

He did not forget his covenant with God. He talked to a pastor who was working among the tribal dailt people and he helped that pastor to buy some land and construct a church there. (I had the privilege to go to that church and preach after my salvation. I heard this story from that pastor first hand as he introduced me to the congregation.)

As you walk with God and pay your tithe, you can expand because expansion is the plan of God.

paxonel:
its a sign of respect in Nigeria perhaps you have forgotten after leaving Nigeria for so many years.

Do people still pay tithe in Europe?

Well in Italy its hard to find those that even believe it including my bishop here. These guys are well fed and so are not too aware of our darker struggles to get there. Me on my own keep doing what worked best for me in Nigeria there....tithing! Against all odds I have confounded all their expectations by what I have been sowing. I am more or less like an object of curiosity, and in my last church a ridicule.

OkCornel:


Another thing to note with the example of Abraham and Jacob is this;

1) Abraham did not tithe to expect blessings in return, He was already blessed before he tithed.

2) Jacob's tithing was more or less a matter of bargain with God... "if you do this for me, I'll do this in return"


But what are we expected to do in this new covenant. Give cheerfully. And that's what I choose to do... I'm not necessarily driven by a certain percentage to give nor do I give with the mindset of what I expect from God in return...

Whether or not He chooses to bless me, I still give cheerfully...

Good but know that God is impartial! Whatever you sow that is what you will reap!

OkCornel:


The thing with Jacob's example is nowhere in the scriptures was it mentioned he fulfilled his vow...

Anyways, let me assume he did. But let's note something here, Jacob, just like Abraham tithed on his own terms at a point in time God gave no specific instructions on how it should be done...

My humble question is this, now that God made His mind clear on how tithing should be done, should it be abandoned and done in a manner man pleases to do it?

The examples I gave you were way outside the LAW and given to the KING OF RGITHEOUSNESS, GOD. I am not under the dispensation of the LAW. It is the dispensation that have changed, not what we do. YOU CAN GIVE, CHOSE NOT TO GIVE, DO WHATEVER YOU WANT. But I prefer to follow Bible examples worthy of emulation. We are not under the commandments but under grace but that is what made our ace tougher, especially when we keep giving little.

Thank yo I got to go out for a while...later.

OkCornel:


Can you see it was not me who said it?

Never mind... let's move on now that part is sorted...

And one more thing. It seemed we justify being led by the Spirit a lot. If Jacob the father of ISRAEL tithe all his life, and we have to reward people by their actions only He would still merit that position by out performing us in giving and righteous deeds. Grace to grass to be lazy and not to be systematic to win the coveted prize is the hall mark of modern Christianity today. i HAVE STOPPED TALKING TOO MUCH, I AM WORKING NOW.

OkCornel:


Can you see it was not me who said it?

Never mind... let's move on now that part is sorted...

Thank you. Anyway giving TENTH has nothing to do with TIME. It depends on the percentage itself and when next you want to give it if there is an increment. It is not stated how many times Abraham did it and that is why it is called TENTH because it a conscious reflection of an action per percent.

Now if you want to see how it is done continuously let us move on to JACOB who is actually the father of ISRAEL. He vowed to God in GENESIS 28:22 to give tenth of everything God ever gives to Him... and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God's house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.

paxonel:
baba!
Please don't encourage fellow young Nigerians or Africans to be ritualistic in their approach of making money, hard work pays.

As you see me so, i am a product of hard work even though i have not yet fully arrived.
I know where i was four years ago, thank God for my life today, there were times the achievement was not coming faster but other times i did not believe the how fast it was coming. These things are not miracle it happens to everyone.

Infact everyone having legitimate handwork are also making such improvement too it's not miracle, it's just natural that anyone working hard must acheive.

So are Dangote, Otedola and Adenuga who are not known to be tithe payers

Please what is that word BABA doing there? I see it was not you anyway.

OkCornel:


Question is, are you tithing the way God instructed it should be done? Or are you doing it the way you feel it should be done?

I mentioned something clearly. Abraham tithed the way he wanted to, and not the way God demanded it.


Abraham tithed warspoils, only once in his life! Does it now mean tithers should tithe only once in their entire life?

Abraham tithed when God gave no guideline on tithing! Now that God has specified what exactly should be tithed, when did this change from agro-produce to money...and who changed it?


You are only trying to be clever by mixing Abraham's tithing with Mosaic requirement on tithing. Please where did God demand for money as tithes? Don't evade this question




WHEN WILL YOU SHOW ME WHERE I CALLED YOU BABA FOR GOODNESS SAKE? Or are you admitting you made a mistake or you lied against me?

I see that either you have become too spiritual than the Bible itself just to justify your doctrines. Where did you see it was mentioned He gave him SPOILS OF WAR? Bible says "and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything" . Please both the Old TESTAMENT (Genesis 14) AND THE NEW TESTAMENT said the same thing... and I keep drumming into your dull mind that tenth = tithe are an exact word meaning TENTH and so these scriptures have nothing to do with tithing under the LAW.

OkCornel:


You see the problem when you don't see things in context?

Pro-tithers are always eager to use Abraham's example of tithing in their defense without considering the facts that;

1) Abraham did not tithe under compulsion or any instructions laid out by God. Abraham tithed on his own terms.

2) Abraham tithed out of war spoils, AND NOT ALL THAT HE POSSESSED!;

Hebrews 7 v 4; Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

3) Abraham tithed only once in his life and you are tithing every month...


Now who is the dull person here?


Please show us where God asked for money to be tithed when He gave out the instructions on tithing.

Man I see that you are really crazy to call what Abraham did as TITHE or TITHING when this has nothing to do with agro feeds or under the LAW. You asked me where I got my 10% and I showed you right in the NEW TESTAMENT where I got what I am doing not under the LAW. Why are you calling this tithing? And why are you saying I am tithing? If I forbid you from saying that about me, why are you repeating this matter again?

OkCornel:


Yes it is.

Please tell us if this tithe changed from tithing on agro-produce to tithing with money...

Thanks...

You are also yet to show me where I called you BABA...

Please stop being dull, tithing is not agro produce, you look foolish here. In the book of Hebrew 7:2 the bible says "This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, 2and Abraham apportioned to him a tenth of everything. First, his name means “king of righteousness.” Then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.” 3Without father or mother or genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God, he remains a priest for all time.…"

Can you see the words a TENTH of everything? This happened before the LAW. May be this happened during the law period, and this one that happened before the LAW is being quoted for us in NEW TESTAMENT. We have used so many scriptures in the new testament to teach, what nullifies this one from us using it TO TEACH? Mind you, before you quote the law again, this was not under the LAW of Moses. And whom was these tenth given to... the KING OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THE KING OF PEACE. And this same MELCHIZEDEK is whom the same Bible stated that Jesus was made "A HIGH PRIEST FOREVER IN THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK".

If I give tenth of my everything to JESUS willingly, how is it bounded by the LAW? Now is this portion referring to tithing under the law, your agro feeds, or the spoils of war, or everything that Abraham have? And this same Hebrew warned us that the lesser man is blessed by the greater man, that is why Melchizedek blessed Abraham, so who is this man that is greater than Abraham, and the Levitical priesthood inside the womb of Abraham... that even Jesus priesthood comes in his order or rank. Therefore the bible teaches us in Hebrew this man priesthood is eternal, he has no father, or mother, beginning of days or end of days. Jesus priesthood is like this. What is wrong if I give my tenth to Jesus outside the LAW?

OkCornel:


My question is very simple and straight forward...

Where in the scriptures was a certain percentage defined as giving sparingly under the new covenant?

Is this question too hard to answer?

May God forgive you for the bolded part of your text. Please where did the Spirit lead anyone in the old or new testament to sin? I am awaiting your answers...

If the word tithing is found in the New Testament more than once, then we will review our knowledge how we make doctrines out of NEW TESTAMENT scriptures and call it the NEW COVENANT.

OkCornel:


Please don't lie here.

1) You accused me of calling you BABA, where did I call you BABA? You are yet to answer me on that...

2) You said this;


I then asked you, that since God's basis of tithing is on crops and livestock, who changed it to money? Was it God? This was your response;



I then asked, Please where does new testament tithing (if there's anything like that) change tithing from agro-produce to money?

You are yet to answer this!



3) You said this;



And I asked; Bro... calm down. This 10% stuff, which set of people did God use 10% as a gauge to bless? The Judaizers or the Christians?

Still, I am yet to get a response on this as well!

Please do respond. Is the word TITHE found in the New Testament or not?

OkCornel:


Please show us what percentage Jesus or the Apostles used to define as giving sparingly?

I don't think I'm asking for too much here... Just give us scriptural references as it pertains to giving under the new covenant...

Now I am doubful about your mathematical skills! You have blamed me, now is my turn to blame you. Christianity have all these problems caused by lazy people like you who do not want to be educated, are careless with spiritual things, do not keep track of what God is doing. Even simple English in the Bible is deemed too symbolic or figurative. And trying out the WORD is left to those who believe in BEING ritualistic. The Spirit leading us is tantamount to freedom to do anything.

OkCornel:
Double post...

Yes why is giving SPARINGLY is being discussed in the Bible with believers?

OkCornel:


Please can you use the scriptures to demonstrate where giving below 10% is defined as sparingly? Especially as it concerns believers in the new covenant...


Besides... do you have anything against someone being led by the Spirit? This is getting interesting

You ask questions with question, I will tell you only when you tell me what you know about SPARINGLY, I did not ask whether you are being led or not.

OkCornel:


Per the bolded, are you saying I should ignore the leading of the Spirit?

I'm quite sure it's your type that would have also criticized Prophet Hosea for marrying a prostitute...


Bros... A man led by the Spirit of God is not under the Law. Study the letters of Paul carefully...

Please kindly mind your language

OkCornel:


And I told you I give according to the leading of the Spirit...or do you now know better than the Spirit of God?

Please show us where believers in the new covenant were told to adhere to a certain percentage threshold of giving before such qualifies as sparingly or bountifully...

I am eagerly awaiting your response. Thanks !

I am just ending this blind argument in the name of the Spirit led me. If you cannot tell me what is sparingly, then do not argue with my own definition of sparingly. It is below 10%. And the word sparingly or bountifully is a percentage that states the more you give in terms of percent, not in terms of amount, the more the Lord blesses you in terms of percent.

And who is keeping the law here? Giving is not enforced in the new testament. Do as you wish but for Christ sake do not argue against this percentage thing of giving sparingly or bountifully.

OkCornel:


Meaning if the Spirit leads me to give my entire allowance to an orphanage for example, I have contradicted the word of God?

Please explain clearly how I have disobeyed the leading of the Spirit...

Can you also show us where the Scriptures mention that believers in the new covenant must give a certain percentage before it qualifies as sparingly or bountifully?

Is giving as led by the Spirit of God tied to certain percentages, formulas and rules?

I have answered all your questions, you were to answer me now... what is SPARINGLY?

OkCornel:


Bros, I give as the Spirit leads me. No specific methods or proportions from...

Unless you have something against how the Spirit leads me. It could be entire allowance (100%) at a moment in certain cases...

Satisfied now?

The Spirit of God does not go against the word of God. If you give sparingly you will surely reap sparingly my brother. Be very careful with this kind of attitude of I can do whatever I want in the name of the Spirit led me.

OkCornel:


Check my previous post... I give as led by the Spirit.

Unless you want to argue that giving as led by the Spirit is constricted to certain formulas, percentages and rules...

Do you now have answers to my questions?

You have contradicted the same Bble you are quoting here. Sparingly and Bountifully are percentage that shows how God rewards us. The Spirit of God does not contradict the WORD of God.

OkCornel:


Bro... calm down. This 10% stuff, which set of people did God use 10% as a gauge to bless? The Judaizers or the Christians?

Since you speak good English, what percentage of your giving can you call sparingly? Please you have not been mathematical for once... please let me know what amounts to sparingly? And for Christ sake stop hiding under words or bible quotations... please answer me.

OkCornel:


Sir, please where did I call you "BABA"? Kindly point that out...



Per the bolded part, I would have indulged you...but I hope you did not miss that part where I said my giving and how I go about it is between me and God...

Besides, what do you make of these words of Jesus in Matthew 6 v 2-4?

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.


These are not my words...but the words of Jesus...what do you think of it?

We are not talking about your giving, but we want the percentage of what you give to be made known for analysis. This does not mention anything you give openly. So the Bible portion you quoted here is not applicable at all but rather only serves to obscure your giving methods. We believers are not learning when you do not reveal your methods. And in academics, by refusing to show your own experiments and reports, merely quoting other sources only (like BIBLE), would be deemed as plagiarism. At the end of the day, you are not validating your methods.

OkCornel:





I'm very glad both of you agreed to this. Now @Dencotext, pay attention to the part where you said if God said something in the past, it is relevant forever.


Remember when God gave the instruction on tithing, it was on livestock and crops from the promised land. Please how did this now change to money? Who changed it?

Remember that post where I mentioned how God specifically required money be raised for the needs of temple by levying every Israelite male half a shekel every year?

Since God's word does not change and is relevant forever... who changed God's requirement on tithing from crops and livestocks into money?

Also pay special attention to what Jesus said concerning tithing in Matthew 23 v 23; a tithe of dill, mint and cummin (which are crops)... please how did these change into monetary tithing today? Was it God that changed it?

You started well but gradually have resulted to discredit me, because you are not paying attention or learning from our discussion. I have mentioned to you that I am not a tither but you keep repeating questions about old testament tithing to me so I cannot answer that till I am sure you understand my point of view.

My opening statement in this forum was....

Hello House,
I have discovered some fundamental truths about tithing and firstfruits. These are the only two forms of giving that the lord declares to be holy unto Him. Tithing or one-tenth is the divine QUANTITATIVE standard, while firstfruits is the divine QUALITATIVE standard how our gifts presented to HONOR God should be.

I am not talking about old testament tithing in this forum, I am talking about a QUANTITY standard. I am simply being precise and mathematical in my application. Old testament form of giving is not applicable today and moreover every child of God in Christ today is not under the law, so why do you keep using words like ritualistic commandment when a child of God decides out of His own freewill mind to give MORE than the barest minimal of onetenth of their net income for God's work. What made it so "tithy" here when you yourself said money is not tithe?

And another problem I found with you is that here I am talking about measurement... you very well know the bible stated that the measure you measure shall be measured back to you I wonder whether you know that in mathematics... that is a numerator being divided by a denominator? I am talking about QUANTITATIVE giving stating that if you give 10% which is simply called ONETENTH or DECIMA (i will stop using the word tithe, because you have stopped seeing when bible refers to onetenth), I am not talking about old testament giving methods here. Even the old testament sometimes refer to that figure in mathematics directly in some portion like Malachi 3:10, which I explained to you includes our offerings and tithings that we rob God of, or else why is the word offering not used here again when it comes to the blessing part? Because there is only one word for onetenth and that is the word TITHE. If I am talking about 20% in Italian, I would be calling it VENTESIMA, but here I am talking about measurement against measurement DECIMA that we can find a leverage to know how to avoid giving sparingly. That quantity was not used in Bible by accident, because it has a great significance or lessons attached to it. I mentioned how the Italian goverment would arrest a billionaire who gives 0.005% as tax, because here we pay tax up to 27% or more. So God is being meaningless or ritualistic to us when He used 10% as gauge to bless us?

Please the tithe I am talking about here is simply onetenth that is a substitute name for onetenth or decima and please giving in the new testament is always freewill whether we give bull, ram, goat or our money. I am getting confused by the many distinctions you are making here. Believers in Christ are not under the law, so whatever we give for Christ cannot be termed ritualistic. Moreover Christ is the end of the LAW Himself.

And here we stand....
1. I am conducting an experiment, I am researching and giving physical facts based on our experiences.... you have not really give any physical data or measurement we can rely on. Is that the lifestyle of those who call themselves non tithers?
2. I measure precisely what I give out for Christ sake. I made sure I give above the barest minimal I deemed bountiful and not sparingly. I am therefore able to observe my growth and the volume of my giving continually relative to what I am receiving till it becomes frightening amount. You have obscured facts with knowledge by saying you give, refusing to state at least in percentage what you give, claiming that you do not know whether God blesses you or not... Of course why would you know, when you do not keep data or think God is mathematical enough to tell us the pitfall of giving sparingly?
3. Zeal is good, but when you start criticizing those that are actively doing something beneficial for God that you are not doing, how can you comprehend what they are telling you out of experience?

And finally tou called me BABA, thank you for that, you have been so full of knowledge, so before you raise this kind of argument with me again, please I want us to stop being zealous and be honest and transparent. Make available in terms of data collected over at least a year period in terms of your giving, I am curious to pinpoint whether you are giving sparingly or bountiful, and see how it compares to the blessings of increment. And please stop using the words non tithers and tithers here... i feel it is derogative to me especially when i told you i am not a tither because it is not a title. I am only ensuring and keep finding ways to give the right QUANTITY and QUALITY to God as much as possible.

OkCornel:


I got lost at the part where he said grace as per 2 Corinthians 8 means money...

As per grace is money?

I was also expecting to hear something on 2 Corinthians 9 v 7... But nah... nothing.

See eh... Giving under the new covenant is something to be done from a cheerful heart with no compulsion.

Another thing to note is... there's no way one can claim to love God and his fellow man and yet such a person who is stingy...

That I'm against pastors using manipulative doctrines to extort money from ignorant people under the guise of tithing doesn't mean I encourage stinginess towards man and the things of God...


The more one grows in sincere love for God and man, the more one would be likely to give...as he/she becomes more selfless...

Having discussed with you, I realized that all your concerns are based on the fact that may be you are not actively tithing. Your concerns about men of God manipulating others is not valid. It happens everywhere that there are sincere and bad people... in the bible Eli the priest and especially his sons that were very corrupt, were judged by God himself. So you cannot tell me that if a pastor is behaving funny, I should follow suit and becareful and stop obeying God to tithe... if tithing is God's commandment.

I am the most blessed naija pikin today. Right now the Italian police are guiding our residence. I pinch myself sometimes whether I am dreaming. How did I arrive here? I really pity those Christiand who despise or fear to tithe... my life become so easier and better when I started tithing. And let me copy n paste a new guy message on whatsapp that I taught how to tithe... what he wrote to me was... God keeps Blessing me Every week, even tho I want a bigger blessing. But at the beginning of every week I’m always like super broke, but before I run out of cash he finds away of putting more in my pockets to sustain me

OkCornel:


Well spoken, this is a very good mindset.



Per the bolded, let's be clear on what God's definition of tithe is. God loves a cheerful giver, not one who gives under compulsion (as the law demands), but from the heart. Moreso, giving should not be done with a mindset or motive of what one should be expecting back from God...lest we reduce Him to a piggybank or an investment scheme.

Love remains the driving factor as to why we give. Take the words of Jesus for example in Matthew 25 v 31-46.
Another thing to note is the beautiful thing about giving unto the promotion of God's work...the blessings one gets from it can be likened to what Obededom enjoyed for taking care of the ark of the Lord...



But something remained constant between the financial system of then and today. I'm referring to money. God never requested for money as tithes then... how did this change over time? Definitely, certain people changed it to suit their monetary interests...



The land has not disappeared...neither has livestock or crops...Money existed back then, but God precisely requested for crops and livestocks from the farmers in the promised land...

If you do a further research, even agricultural produce outside the land of Israel was not taken as tithe. That shows you tithe was tied only to the livestocks and crops grown in the promised land.





Even laborers, craftsmen e.t.c. whose occupation was outside of farming and livestock rearing had their sweat measured through money...and other assets they've acquired. The question is...were these things (money and other assets outside of crops and livestock) titheable according to the Law?



In summary, giving out of a cheerful heart and not under any compulsion or any requirement from the Law wwhich Christ has already fulfilled should remain the standard...

Perhaps...you are taking freewill giving and tithing as the same thing...


Like I mentioned earlier... I'm not against you giving to help others or giving to promote God's work...

Cheers and Jah bless...

I prayed how to answer you, and I came across this youtube video. Please take a glance at this video...it is a balance between what you are saying and what I am doing. The video expresses my heart 100% although I am seeing it for the first time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDD9CvqMUuU

OkCornel:


Well spoken, this is a very good mindset.



Per the bolded, let's be clear on what God's definition of tithe is. God loves a cheerful giver, not one who gives under compulsion (as the law demands), but from the heart. Moreso, giving should not be done with a mindset or motive of what one should be expecting back from God...lest we reduce Him to a piggybank or an investment scheme.

Love remains the driving factor as to why we give. Take the words of Jesus for example in Matthew 25 v 31-46.
Another thing to note is the beautiful thing about giving unto the promotion of God's work...the blessings one gets from it can be likened to what Obededom enjoyed for taking care of the ark of the Lord...



But something remained constant between the financial system of then and today. I'm referring to money. God never requested for money as tithes then... how did this change over time? Definitely, certain people changed it to suit their monetary interests...



The land has not disappeared...neither has livestock or crops...Money existed back then, but God precisely requested for crops and livestocks from the farmers in the promised land...

If you do a further research, even agricultural produce outside the land of Israel was not taken as tithe. That shows you tithe was tied only to the livestocks and crops grown in the promised land.





Even laborers, craftsmen e.t.c. whose occupation was outside of farming and livestock rearing had their sweat measured through money...and other assets they've acquired. The question is...were these things (money and other assets outside of crops and livestock) titheable according to the Law?



In summary, giving out of a cheerful heart and not under any compulsion or any requirement from the Law wwhich Christ has already fulfilled should remain the standard...

Perhaps...you are taking freewill giving and tithing as the same thing...


Like I mentioned earlier... I'm not against you giving to help others or giving to promote God's work...

Cheers and Jah bless...

Thanks bro for the understanding. I was refering to a figure in percentage that I believe should be the minimal I should set aside for the work of God. My earlier complaint is how spiritual, figurative and righteous we try to categorize our giving as freewill offerings or tithes. The word tithe used in bible in malachi when it comes to the BLESSING part has nothing to do with a legalistic commandment unless we believe God does not know mathematics. Its the law that governs giving sparingly and bountifully both tithes and offerings combined. Tithe in italian is DECIMA or onetenth. Tithe in hebrew and all languages meant onetenth? I really have to know the total percentage I give in terms of my net income because God is no fool. If i am a billionaire and i give only 0.005% of my net income as tax in Italy, i would be arrested for the for tax evasion. Earthly government used this biblical principle, and things work efficiently here in Italy than Nigeria.

What made you think God is not interested to teach us the mathematics why the work of God is suffering? Therefore truly truly i say unto you, if a non tither is giving 33% of their NET INCOME every month for the work of God, they shall be more blessed relatively in percentage than a tither because God is not partial... that is why I do not call myself a tither because it is not a title to be attained! And what mare you think God does not reward us whether financially or otherwise when we give?

OkCornel:


I'll reply this tomorrow...

Meanwhile, do you believe non tithers are under the devourer's curse as per the book of Malachi?

To be candid with you, being cursed, as in having unfortunate things befalling you, does not necessarily mean YOU ARE NOT A CHILD OF GOD! So in that case, I will use another analogy to explain why a child of God can be struggling with a curse.

The sober truth is that many people justify why they are not tithing based on their understanding of the New Testament. Remember that Jesus said that the Pharisees pay tithes, and Jesus did not condemn tithing, but condemned the fact that they emphasized on justice above mercy. Justice is like trying to do what is right at all cost, or what you think is right. While mercy is like trying to do what God tells you to do, even if it does not seem very right at the time... because righteousness is a gift from God. We have no righteousness of our own outside God. I have discovered that no amount of preaching can make you discover the joy of obeying the bible, unless you physically put head knowledge aside and practice and test the WORD of God by putting it to practice. This is what DEVIL fears so much that he has helped rebranded Christianity to make us nullify the power of God by following the trends that have no scriptural genesis.

One major reason why many people come under a curse is not because satan deceived them alone. Check Genesis to Revelation and you will see that God says everything in Life is being upheld by the spoken WORD. The bible contains plenty blessings and curses, Life and Death, and even good and evil. In 2009 when I was crying and seeking the way forward in my life, the Holy Spirit told me categorically that...MY SON, SATAN IS NOT YOUR PROBLEM, IT IS HOW YOU RELATE WITH GOD THAT REALLY MATTERS. IF YOU TAKE MY WORDS FOR GRANTED, WHETHER YOU ARE A CHILD OF GOD, YOU WILL BE AFFLICTED AND MAY COME UNDER A CURSE. BUT IF YOU FEAR AND OBEY MY WORDS YOU WILL BE BLESSED. I laughed hard and loud when I realized that satan was not my problem but my many years of disobedience to God's word that was causing me those downfalls. I never looked back again, now that I know how to keep GOD's covenant working on my behalf.

Finally before I answer your question, I must paraphrase your question because of the REVELATIONS I have about how these things work now. ALL THE LAW ABOUT GIVING CAN BE SUMMARIZED IN JUST ONE SENTENCE... the measure you measure shall be measured back to you, so he that sows sparingly shall reap sparingly, and he that sow bountifully shall reap bountifully . But before you rejoice that this statement excluded tithing (may be you need to read my NEW book about GIVING) I think we need to know what is bountifully and what is sparingly before we relax. As mathematician and a researcher, I figured out how this law works. The truth is not all non tithers are under the devourer's curse (I will explain that next) but definitely all faithful tithers are not under the curse . The reason why some non tithers are not under the curse is because they do not give sparingly but bountifully all the times. The quantity that is sparingly I have figured out is actually giving anything less than 10% of your wealth or which is your increase. You do not need to call it tithing because both tithing and offerings is GIVING... in that aspect we sometimes misunderstand the essence of tithing. God said we rob Him in both tithing and offering that is why we came under the devourer. But noticed...the HOLY SPIRIT POINTED IT OUT TO ME SPECIFICALLY IN MALACHI... that when God talked about the blessing, He never mentioned offering but simply said in Malachi 3:10 that... “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour out for you such a blessing.”

I asked the Holy Spirit that the name offering is missing when it come to the blessing but it was included as part of what we rob of God. The Holy Spirit said, well even though we rob God in our tithes and offerings... we only need not to give below one-tenth of all our wealth for God to open all the windows of heaven! Because of God's mercies, that is all that is needed for us to get all His full benefits. And now this is not just tithing as we know it but one-tenth of all we have... it is the quantity (and above) that is deemed sufficiently bountiful to unlock God's hand. So let me be frank with you... a non tither does not necessarily need to call what they give as TITHING, they only need to give quantitatively nothing less than 10% of their wealth to trigger the clause that they are giving BOUNTIFULLY. But let us judge this matter... if I am tithing and giving 10% of my net wealth, and someone else who is a non tither is giving out 5% net wealth and another non tither is giving out 33% net wealth, who would be more blessed? The 33% giver should be more blessed (not based on the amount) but on the percentage even if that person is poorer... with time, he would overtake the others because this law works but we do not know.

Maybe I am a funny man researching God giving methods, but I have tried giving 10% as tithing, and also my first fruit or January salary, which is 100% or the widow's mite. On another ocassion that I needed a break through to leave naija and come to Europe, I did the biggest sacrifices of GIVING in my entire life. It literary brought down the hand of God for me, He began to tell me exactly what to do to bless me, and everything came to pass exactly as He said it would, and that made me cried like a baby. The fact is that to consider one self a non tither is not a good idea if we want to call Abraham our father, whom the New Testament in Hebrew, said paid tithes of all to Melchizedek the priest. Tithing helps regiment and make what you do to be regular. Giving randomly can always often cause you to give less than 10% even when God is blessing you further, you may not recalculate your income to know. Shine your eyes, its a covenant that God wants us to use calculator to know exactly what is happening to our substance and to step up our giving because there is going to be rewards!

OkCornel:
When pro-tithers are ready to show us where God specifically mentioned money as part of the items to be tithed, then they should know that monetary tithing is unscriptural....

I want to be honest with you, I see myself as a neutral observer in this world. The best word to describe my approach to life is that I am a RESEARCHER. The first major mistake I made all my life was to take bible words either too spiritual, figurative, or seeking it for mere knowledge only. Bible teaches about FAITH in God, but above all, FAITH is dead without WORKS. But now I prefer to do what I think Bible says, like an experiment, and see personally how it works for me first before I recommend it for anybody.

I started tithing around 2009 faithfully more out of despair. (I prefer to use the word TITHING because it is a verb that denotes continuity of works). I wondered why God never seemed to answer my prayers to get out of abject poverty in Abuja, which I faced from 1996 to 2009 or 10 years. To cut a very long story short when I started tithing in 2009 I was earning N8,000 but now I am living in Europe worth million in terms of naira by 2019 or exactly 10 years later. Though my financial status changed but my emphasis is that I got more blessed!

Well the financial system of those days God spoke to the Israelite is different from today. God told Daniel that the image in Nebuchadnezzer dream has a gold head, bronze body, and iron and clay legs. The first and best government and economic system is the kingly rule and trade by barter. But the weakest form of government and economic system is the presidential and monetary financial system of today. Revelation must be fulfilled, we are in the era that the beast 666 is taking control of the financial system.

I fully agree with you that tithing was done with the increase of the land, but today we barely can give tithing with the increase of the land, but by monetary exchange, which can be used to purchase those things. Our sweat now is measured by the money we earn… this is indeed the lowest economic system in God’s sight as you said, but I myself can barely do anything about that. So I deviced a SIMPLE way of evaluating the increase of my land… I simply cannot use 10% of my monetary income money for tithing… it does not take care of the extra increase and favors I get daily in life. I have to pay above 10% all the time, that is if I want my money to reflect the extra favors… may be i have to give like a 15% or more. Because I am not perfect, I simply make room for the excess favors before and ahead of time. Yes God never say money specifically, but money is what we use today, so we should chose what we deem is our increase. Sorry, I prefer converting my wealth to money equivalent before tithing… though I have given out other things too like clothes and so on... but not as tithing.

Finally as to whether a gentile should be tithing? Well we both know God is not partial, does not favor one person above another person. He does not love Abel, Job, Abraham, Israel, and so on, above us the gentiles. Now I must quote scriptures EPH 4: 4-6 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all”.

Based on the latest revelation I have in God as I am tithing till date, I came to realize that God is an eternal Spirit THAT does not change with time. He made me understand that human beings, in real sense, cannot give directly to God. WE GIVE TO THE CHURCH OR TEMPLE OR TO OUR FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS. But any time a man for any reason decides to want to literally honor Him God Almighty…I do not mean just thanking Him per se with our lips but to reverence Him with our gifts... that gifts to God is considered Holy and God does no accept anything less than our tithing or firstfruits. The two gifts are the only gifts considered Holy in the Bible because it is given to honor God directly. In the case of Abel and Cain, this was no mistaken oversight by God, Cain did not give His first fruit or tithes. God used Abel’s gifts (firstfruits and the blood) to let Cain and all mankind thereafter know how to reverence Him with their gifts. Abel was not an Israelite. This same method was used by Job, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and given by Moses to the Israelite. And today Christ says there is no difference between Israelites and the Gentiles in Christ, because we are one body. We have ever been one body from the day of creation.