₦airaland Forum

Boudiccao:
There are no answers to supremacist claims pulled out of your ass to berate others.
Discrediting Igbos with your fictitious remarks is all you have done on this thread. That's a dubious way of way of engaging others.

OK

doublewisdom:
Were they up to 200 fighting men?

Details of the Benin Expedition

On 9 February 1897, the invasion of the Kingdom of Benin began. The British invasion force of about 1,200 Royal Marines, sailors and Niger Coast Protectorate Forces was organised into three columns: the 'Sapoba', 'Gwato' and 'Main' columns. Flotillas of warships (including HMS Philomel and Phoebe) and gunboats approached Benin City from the east and west.[14] The 'Sapoba' and 'Main' columns reached Benin City after ten days of fighting. The 'Gwato' column (under Captain Gallwey) took the same route as that taken by the previous mission and came on the scene of the massacre, finding headless bodies of the victims.[15]

Source: Wikipedia

Boudiccao:
Once you take out the head, the rest is gone.
People with no Kings are more difficult to conquer and that's exactly the problems Britian faced in Igboland even during Colonialism.

I agree with this.

A people with no central government is not easy to conquer. The same principle in use with Al-Qeda and the proliferation of cells.

Walkee:
who surrendered? Did Uromi stop having a king? Did any of the enigies lose his crown with the Oba?
The city of is relatively small, which kingdom hasn't fallen when attacked from all sides especially by people close to you who know your terrain.
The Igbo savages you are hyping who fought in jungles can't be compared with a well developed kingdom. They can be likened to the talibans in Afghanistan. Yes it is more difficult to beat savages hiding in bushes with no clear leaders just like the Vietcongs and the Afghans it doesn't make them more sophisticated. All develop empires and kingdoms in human history had Kings and should the king get captured the war is over.

i agree.

The capitulation of the King ends the war.

Same way Kano and sokoto towns were taken over.

The death of Hitler ended German war, The surrender of the Japanese emperor ended hostilities in Japan WW2.

However, when there is no clear government structure....sips lipton

Many scholars agree that the Igbos were by definition "Stateless' before colonial rule. This assertion has been rejected by some Igbo scholars in some articles. However, the general opinion on the matter is that since the Igbos lacked a central form of government at this period, they cannot be referred to as a State.

Boudiccao:
What you are doing here is rubbish.


You are super imposing yourself on others civilizations and putting words in their mouth and then turn around to ask them to counter it when your claims are mere delusions.

let the person i asked answer. You have been unable to answer too.

Ariani:
Lol!
Why should you decide where we start the digging?

Who did the Yorubas meet at Ife? Let's start at that.

You are evidently avoiding the truth.

I asked you a question. You answered by asking another question. How does that sound?

If you are so sure Afa didn't originate from Ifa, then answer where Afa originated from.

It is simple

Ariani:
Why not start with how did Yorubas get to Ife?
Who did they meet there when they arrived?
Who gave Bini it's civilization? Was it not the Yorubas from Ife who ended the Ogisos and established the current Yoruba Oba system in Ile Ibinu?

Don't lets mix matters up.

Lets start with you providing an answer to the question i asked. Once we are done with that, we will visit any other area you so desire.

So, How did Afa get to Ndigbo?

ariesbull:
Anglo Aro war lasted over 5 yrs

No. The war has not even ended

Ariani:
Which verifiable source told you Ndiigbo borrowed our "Afa" from Yorubas?
I have asked you to post the excerpts here.

I recognize Igbo and Yoruba language branching off from the YEAII (Yoruba-Edo-Akoko-Igbo-Igala-) common ancestor eons ago. Hence few word cognates among members of the family.
No one borrowed from any one, they just retained original shared ones before all diverged.

Let's start with this.

How did Afa get to Ndigbo?

Walkee:
lol normal people will be talking all these clowns who have no home will still be putting mouth. You that half the population of your youth are either on death row in Indonesia and Malaysia or rotting away in the some unmarked grave in East

Insults are not relevant to this conversation.

Ethnic hate is also not a sign of intelligence. Lets drop it

Thanks

Walkee:
lol look at this ignorant delusional IPOB. Benin Kingdom was made up of many quasi-autonomous kingdoms whose head pay traditional respect to the Oba. Uromi was the military head of Benin kingdom. They already had access to Portuguese weapons as far back as during the reign of Ewuare in the 14th century one of the main reasons Ewuare and Ozolua ran circles around all neighbouring cities up to Ghana. There are still ethnic Ẹdos in Ghana to called Ga.
The Benin invasion was done by Africans in the South African protectorate down to the Niger protectorate. The brits remained in their ships. The first time 250 British came they were butchered.
As for human sacrifice there is no tribe in Nigeria that was not involved in human sacrifice. The death of ikemefuna in Achebe's book, was it copied from the practices of the benins?
Britain vs Old Benin one on one Britain would lose 99/100

In as much as you have points, insulting him is no way to go. Make your points and allow him to have his points aired.

Thanks

Ariani:
Which verifiable source told you Ndiigbo borrowed our "Afa" from Yorubas?
I have asked you to post the excerpts here.

I recognize Igbo and Yoruba language branching off from the YEAII (Yoruba-Edo-Akoko-Igbo-Igala-) common ancestor eons ago. Hence few word cognates among members of the family.
No one borrowed from any one, they just retained original shared ones before all diverged.

I shared details already.

I like the fact that you accept that it is very possible afa and ifa is related.

If we accept that they are related, then we can begin to unravel how they are related.

This i did some posts back

Thanks

Ariani:
It's not even same thing.
It's just a mere coincidence that Orisha( this is how Yorubas pronounce it with "sh" rhymed with Orisa which is but a dialectical variation of Olisa.

The origin of the words are different.

Orisha in Yoruba has something to do with head, as head means "Ori" in Yoruba.

But Olisa in Igbo is a contraction of the sentence "Oli isaa", meaning what is greater than seven, or what swallows seven.

In Igbo cosmology, the number 7 is very important and considered the highest number of the men realm. Once something exceed seven (Isaa) in Igbo cosmology, it is assumed to have become metaphysical.

That's why in Igbo fairy tales, when some one has to go to the spirit world, we say " Oga fe ofia isaa (asaa) na mmli isaaa(asaa) , ruo be ndi mmuo"
Meaning he crossed seven forests and seven Rivers and got to the spirit land.

"Oli isaa"(what is beyond the 7th) is the representation of the metaphysical in Igbo cosmology and spirituality, that's how it also came to represent Chukwu/Chineke/ Chiokike/Obasi, because this being is recognized to be a metaphysical being that dwell in the spirit world that lie beyond the number 7.

Bottom line is that the similarity in words between Orisha in Yoruba and Olisa in Igbo are mere coincidence, and they are not even pronounced alike, as both words when broken down to their meaning in both languages,have different meaning and origins.

Thank you for your time.

Orisa is the spelling in yoruba. The S has a marking that makes the pronunciation sh. Orisa is pronunced Orisha in yoruba.

Orisha (god or deity) is different from ori (head).

Similar sounding/spelt words in yoruba usually have no relation whatsoever. Examples below

Oko represents husband, farm, hoe, stone, penis, vehicle, etc

Orisa (pronounced orisha) is orisa and it means god.

In many other climes, the same orisa means god ( spelt or pronounced slightly differently)

If traveling Dibias brought ifa from yoruba land to igbo land, it is very possible that they brought the name of their deity (orisha) with them.

Boudiccao:
Other people recognize it because it is overhyped in Africa!


Other peoples belief system are put at the back because of obsession with Ifa which is hyped and elevated above others that have the same system in West Africa with no specific origin tied to any group.

Leave the subject since your understanding about it is limited bro

Ariani:
You are very funny.

Even the Ooni of Ife said they met Igbos in Ife when the Yorubas first came to Ife.
We are that old.
But you want to believe such an old people with population to match, borrowed an essential culture as our divination system from Yorubas?

Do you realize how insulting and provocative these your claims are?

No Igbo well versed in Afa recognize any nonsense link between Afa and Ifa.
Stop these ridiculous provocative claims already.

First, you claim there is no relationship whatsoever between ifa and afa, i showed you the relationships with evidence.

If you have verifiable sources to debunk my claims and that of authorities on this, please help us all and bring it to light.

Claims that are backed with evidence become facts

Boudiccao:
This doesn't prove anything. Ifa and Afa is a West African divination system that has similar patterns across board just like I already mentioned.


Nobody can claim to have originated it and gave it to others.
You can't claim what is indigenous to West Africans with no specific source of origin.

On the contrary.

Other people in west africa recognize the ifa canon.

Igbos well versed in Afa also do.

It is you who is knew to the subject that is refusing to comprehend what even UNESCO has accepted.

And that is the main issue. You simply can’t accept that the almighty igbos could have influence from other tribes in their ancestral development.

Everyone contributed to everyone.

Now this is a theory of mine.

Could the traveling Dibias have brought the god name orisa with them to igbo land?

The orisa responsible for ifa is orunmila

Boudiccao:
Don't mind the bigot.
What he is calling Ifa is found throughout West Africa and it comes with different names and obviously going to have similar patterns since it's a Niger Congo stuff. No group can lay sole claims of its origin.


How a supremacist woke up to peddle the trash of igbo taking it from Yoruba is beyond me.

Just because Yoruba religion is over hyped in modern Nigeria doesn't mean other West Africans don't have the same belief systems and solid religion of their own.
You can blame the Europeans for that. Once the focus on something, they tend to keep others at the back.

Afa, Ifa, Aha, Iha and other names it bears is found throughout the West African region and each group have their gods and their way of doing things.

Let me help you with pictures

Both pictures represent Ifa and Afa divination objects. First is ifa, second is afa.

Do you see similarities?

Now yorubas have reliable sources and evidence on the how ifa started.

Reports on how Afa originated in Igbo land inisist that traveling medicine men (Dibias) who came from other places brought it with them.

Yorubas have been practicing ifa centuries before Nri, Arochukwu or independent igbos settlers even settled.

Now do you get the drift?

need to go sleep now.

It has been wonderful talking with you guys.

Remember, we are all brothers, irrespective of our different opinions.

Lets all reduce insults and tribal hate.

Cheers

Ariani:
Because Arochukwu was a Confederate.
Arochukwu town is the headquarters of the confederation.
So when Arochukwu town fell, the confederation rallied around and fought to protect other parts of the confederation with hope to push the British forces back and reclaim the headquarters of the confederation, ie Arochukwu town.

This is not your mushroom empire of fairy tales. That was captured in a day. And that was it.

When you all started the narrative, you painted it as if Arochukwu held the British at bay for 5 months. Now, it is clear to the world that Arochukwu was seized in 4 days. The British took their war machine all round to conquer 4 other settlements by March of 1902. These are the facts.

Ariani:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Aro_War

However, Arochukwu was captured on December 28 after four days of fierce battles in and around the city. As a result, the Ibini Ukpabi shrine was allegedly blown up. Battles between British and Aro forces continued throughout the region until spring 1902 when Aro forces were defeated in the last major battle at Bende. The Aro Expedition ended three weeks later.

BATTLES FOUGHT DURING THE EXPEDITION
Battles in the Oguta/Owerri area (November 1901)
Battles of Esu Itu (December 1901)
Battles of Arochukwu (December 1901)
Battle of Edimma (January 1902)
Battle of Ikotobo (January 1902)
Battle of Ikorodaka (February 1902)
Battle of Bende (March 1902)

These were different battles for different areas. Battle of Arochukwu was done and dusted in 4 days. simple.

bomb24:
The battle started in November 1901 and ended in March 1902 now decipher

Arochukwu was conquered on December 28, 1901. Why adding other battles for other lands into it?

Ariani:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Aro_War

State the 5 months in which the Arochukwu war allegedly was waged

Ariani:
The only reason Aro-Anglo war didn't last longer was that the British were cunning.

Before the war , they went on a campaign where by they lured the people to bring out their guns to be broken, by either paying them for submitting their guns or by using their local police.
The British were nicknamed "Ndi otiji Egbe" in the Aro area for this.
After a while the Aro sensed what was happening, and halted the campaign, but it was too late by then, they had lost too many guns and it took the Igbo local blacksmiths time to reproduce enough guns on time to ready the Aro Confederate for the war.


The Aro were simply outwitted and out gunned.

But they atleast mounted a resistance for 6 months.

The fable Empire of one fat king that every one else prostrate before like they don't have brains of their own lasted just a bit over 1 day before capitulating.

Yet these mad people come out and tell us how there useless weak village Monarchical system of Government were stronger than our Republican system, and how it made them more civilised than us. Lol!
Of course the British were praising their stupid Monarchical system because they knew it made things quite easy for their colonial intents. They just took out the king or just replaced him with a stooge and the entire people bowed to the British.

In IGBOLAND,there was no king.
It was a very complex society of age grade leaders, elder councils, priests of deities, titled men, women groups ( Umuada and Omus) , etc.
All having equal stake in the day to day governance of the society.
There was no visible head for them to decapitate and bring everyone else under control.
They knew they were going to face stiff resistance in Igboland and that the campaign would cost them alot in human and resources.
Why would you expect them to praise such a system of Government?

Is it another Arochukwu that was conquered in 1901? Give dates of this wonderful events you just described.

Boudiccao:
Your desperate to berate Igbos as uncreative, lowly and lacking a culture and civilization of their own through out this thread show you are trash talking Igbos.

Whenever Igbos have been proven to own a thing, you crawl out of your hole to attempt to take it from them and discredit them and give credit to other tribes.

What the hell is your problem? Did Igbos take anything from you?

Why exactly are you moving this crazy when it comes to Igbos. What sort of inferiority complex are you suffering from that you have to fight to credit igbo culture and civilization to your Yoruba and Benin?

Pathetic.


No, Afa didn't originate in Yoruba. Stop peddling that falsehood to give yourself a false sense of superiority and achievement.

Read up. I am not the issue here. direct your musket to further research or leave the subject.

bomb24:
lol and the Aros held them for 5 months.

you obviously know little about colonial conquests.

on December 28 1901, Arochukwu was captured after 4 days of battle and the Ibini Ukpabi shrine was blown up.

Kindly state the acclaimed 5 months for us.

Ariani:
So who did this study that says that Igbos borrowed our Afa from Ifa of Yorubas?
Did the person come to Igbo land to ask us questions, or he just stayed in Ibadan and Lagos and started distorting Igbo history without our knowledge?

You don't think this is not only insulting, but provocative?

Look,our fathers and grandfathers might have for whatever reason allowed you lots get away with these historical distortions and provocations, but bear in mind that this current Igbo generation will not.

Just dey your dey.
No come use your blues spoil our reggae.

If you want to do research on Afa,come to Igboland and ask us questions, maybe when you are done, you will see that you borrowed from us, since you can't mind your business.

Kindly read up The Meaning and Method of Afa Divination among the Northern Nsukka Ibo by AUSTIN J. SHELTON’
State University of New York, 1965

Boudiccao:
You saw two similar words used by two different groups just like Okute and Okwuta and you jumped into a conclusion that Igbos got Afa from Ifa.

That is supremacist complex and pseudo history.

Get the Bleep out of here.

Try something new. Ask yourself, What is the origin of Afa in Igbo land?

Does it relate to travelling medicine men from other areas?

You can ask more experienced people.

Ariani:
I don't give a damn who studied Ifa or who used it.

But Ifa didn't give birth to Afa in Igboland.

Ndiigbo and Yoruba are distinct people.

Considering that we have traditionally been more populous than Yorubas, we could easily claim they borrowed Ifa from Ndiigbo.
But that's not how Ndiigbo roll.
We are too secured in our own skins to be pokenosing into other people history.

We just say we know nothing about Ifa, and that we developed our Afa independent of Yorubas IFA.

It's as simple as that.

apologies but only an arrogant person doesn't care about past studies that counter his present beliefs.

It is like saying you don't care if anyone has done studies in the past to prove that the earth is round or flat but since your own parcel of farm land is flat, the earth is then flat.

Boudiccao:
Yoruba say Okwuta.
Igbos say Okute.
There are so many of these similarities out there for goodness sake.

Both groups speak Niger Congo languages and originated in the same Axis.
It doesn't mean Igbos took your religion, rather both groups share some similar words for the same thing.


Why are you always trying to discredit Igbos to praise Benin and Yoruba.
Can't they be allowed to be the Niger Congo people without pulling igbos down?


BIGOT.

I am not discrediting Igbos.

The Odu Ifa has been well researched. Don't take my word for it. Research and learn.

I actually believe these things should bring us all closer instead of separating us.

We evidently share a common ancestry. Why the hate and anger?

Why must everyone who has a different observation be your enemy?

Boudiccao:
That person is a disgusting Bigot after all Igbos can also claim that Yoruba got Ifa from Afa.

His only mission here is to claim igbos have no civilization or disparage igbo civilization whenever he is busted.

A low life Igbophobic fool.

If you have evidence to show that the Yorubas got Ifa from Afa, please show it.

Don't go into the cesspit of insults just because you find it hard to make a point.

Boudiccao:
Wrong. Ifa divinity has nothing to do with Afa, you bigot always trying to malign and discredit Igbo civilization.


Igbos and Yorubas come from the same language family , it is not out of place that they have word cognates and similar words that sound the same.

You must be obsessed with Igbos to the point of trashing everything that belongs to them.

I didn't trash Igbos.

The fact that something originates from somewhere doesn't make the Igbos lesser. Why are you suffering from a serious case of inferiority complex like this?

We are communicating in english, a language that doesn't belong to our tribes, yet you find ancient history intimidating?