₦airaland Forum

coolk,

I truly believe that I am absolutely free to do whatever I like. And so is everyone else.

However, nobody, including me, is free from the consequence of what we do, for every action/inaction has a consequence.

ScepticalPyrrho:
If you were born in the Northern part of this country, chances are that you'll be a Muslim.
Same as if you were born in India, you'll likely be an Hindu.

Have this thought ever occurred to your mind?

Nobody is a Christian because of his/her geographical location. Geography plays no part on Christianity as it concerns an individual.

Christ is encountered regardless of one's location.

I was not born a Christian. I became a Christian, not by environmental influence, but by coming in contact with the truth as contained in the Word of GOD. This same experience could have happened to me whether I was in the North, South or West.

coolk:
@DoctorAlien

Thanks for painstakingly reading my essay and offering your opinion.

This are my crux with your arguments:

The first is a paradox.
How does an all knowing (omniscient), all powerful (omnipotent) and all present (omnipresent) God, NOT know if man – created in his image and likeness; kept in a garden under his supervision (supernatural prerogative), 'commanded' not to eat from a beautiful tree with enticing fruits he planted in the middle, resist the cunning of a serpent he made – will disobey him? Genesis 2:8-25, 3:1-24 (the devil is in the details)

Maybe we were setup to fail this 'test!'

Is Lucifer not Immortal? Did he not rebel against God?
(according to the bible)

... ... ... more query loading.

He knew man would disobey Him. He put man to a test because Satan could argue that man was sinless only because he lacks an avenue to sin.

Nope. The devil is not immortal; he will be destroyed at the end.(see Isa. 14; Ezek. 28)

dalaman:
The same way christians say that Allah is evil. Has Allah ever killed anybody in reality before? The idea is why we are discussing.

Yes. Allah is a blood-sucking demon. He has incited his worshippers to waste millions of lives.

So answer my question.

dalaman:
Capable of genocode in the place where he exist which is inside the bible. Your God exist only inside the bible and in your head.

We are talking about the stories and if they are justifiable. Stories is the subject here.

Did GOD kill anybody in reality?

If no, how then is He evil?

If yes, how can you say He does not exist?

ScepticalPyrrho:
It's just common sense now...

How can I be all-knowing, omniscience and all, but still get angry like didn't see it coming?

How do I kill 70,000 people yet be called merciful.

Think about it.

Do you sincerely not see the contradictions in statement "God is angry"?

This is one perspective.

The word "God" implies perfection. It doesn't allow for frustration, ferocity, anger, detest, etc

How would I create something that I happen to know would get me frustrated?

Israel was not sin-free when GOD allowed Satan incite David to take a census.

Moreover, GOD made known to Israel the consequences of having a human king over them. They would surely be involved in any decision their king makes, be it sinful or righteous. They insisted on having a king over them, anyway, and GOD let them have their way.(See 1 Sam. 8 ).

On freewill:

In the beginning, GOD intended to create beings whom He can love. He is full of love, and He wanted to create beings who can feel His wonderful love, and then choose to love Him back and obey Him, simply because: 1. He created them 2. He has showered unrestrained love on them.

Robots cannot love GOD. Anything without a mind of its own, without the ability to choose(freewill) cannot love GOD on its own. Therefore, these beings whom GOD would create would have freewill. This way, they can be able to, of their own volition, love and obey GOD as the Creator He is.

Yes, GOD knew right from time that this freewill would surely be abused. He is omniscient. However, should GOD refrain from creating objects of His love, who can love Him back freely, simply because one of these creatures would choose to abuse that freewill? No. If such a situation arises, He is able to salvage it. He is omnipotent.

You now know why Lucifer came about.

If I set a test for my son, to see how he would handle a certain amount of money, determined to only will my estate to my son if he passes that test, and then he eventually fails the test, did I set my son up? Is it evil for me to determine how responsible the person who's gonna inherit my estate/wealth is? Will I just allow my wealth to fall into the hands of one who would misuse it and probably hurt others with it?

I believe you can now see it from GOD's own POV.

There is what is called THE GREAT CONTROVERSY! Satan, disguised as a snake, came to tempt man to make him disobey GOD. This is a long story I'm tryna cut short. Satan knew that GOD loved man so much, and that if he could get man to disobey GOD, He would still devise a plan through which to save man. Satan thought that either man must die, or GOD would have to violate His law of "death to the sinner." He, in fact, hoped to gain from any plan which GOD makes to restore man, seeing the he himself had been cast out of Heaven.

On your feud with Christianity:

GOD created Adam and Eve with conditional immortality: as long as they obeyed, they would live forever. If they disobeyed, they would die. Their access to the tree of life ensured the renewal of the vital vigor that would keep them alive. However, GOD intended to, after a period of testing their loyalty, usher them into unconditional immortality, if they proved themselves trustworthy. GOD cannot afford to immortalize anybody with a tendency to rebel against Him. You now know why Adam and Eve had to prove that they would forever remain loyal to GOD.

When Adam and Eve failed the test, GOD deprived them of the tree of life, because eating of it could have made them immortal in their sinful and fallen state. GOD does not wish to immortalize sin.

Moreover, how could GOD boast to Satan that He has a people on earth who have chosen to obey Him(contrary to Satan's decision) when, in fact, there was no avenue for the people to sin?

Man must choose to obey GOD. CHOOSE!

Anas09:
You do not need me to contribute anything more. You answered him well.

If the sinners are going to be completely annihiliated, why is then resurrection and judgement neccesary?

If that's the case, then there shouldn't be any need for judgement. When they die, they cease to exist, when they get completely annihiliated, they cease to exist. So, why resurrect them in the first place?

You must understand that the Bible does not, in any way, teach that evil people will be alive forever, probably in another portion of GOD's creation, shouting and yelling.

It goes this way: The righteous and wicked die, they go to the grave. When Christ comes, the righteous dead resurrect, and the living righteous are caught with them to meet the LORD in the air.1 Thes 4:16-17

At the same time the living wicked will be killed by the brightness of the LORD, while the wicked dead are not resurrected.2 Thes 2:8 After the 1000 years, the wicked are resurrected to be destroyed.

akintom:
Encounter of this nature i guess?
https://www.nairaland.com/3538407/what-encounter-god

You certainly expected me to take seriously, your singular experience, that can possibly be a symptoms of some psychedelic behavior secondary to organic damage or chemical intercourse with some brain centers?

You have said it all: my encounter with GOD could be real and genuine.

Or not.

You can't tell. But it will become fallacy on your part to label it alse false/delusion when you really can't tell.

hopefulLandlord:
can't argue much with this

There are lots of verses that agree with it:

"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1

"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts." Mal. 4:3

"Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psa. 21:9

hopefulLandlord:
pls, I've edited my post

but being a "fool" doesn't necessarily make you "wicked" because even the bible said "We are fools for Christ"

We are fools in the eyes of the world(or are we not foolish in the sight of you atheists again?) for Christ.

We know, however, that the fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.

hopefulLandlord:
on a second thought I decided to read the verse and it says

"A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found."

this just talks of "wicked" are Buddhist monks also wicked? are Muslims also "wicked"?

and then even if we assume its talking about them ceasing to exist, it doesn't say much in that direction because even in heaven "you'll look for the wicked and you'll not find them", that doesn't negate the fact that they might be somewhere in hell burning forever

basically that verse might be referring to heaven after all you can't cross over to hell from heaven or vice versa so you can't see any wicked in heaven

I'm just thinking aloud

"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psa. 37:20

hopefulLandlord:
on a second thought I decided to read the verse and it says

"A little while, and the wicked will be no more; though you look for them, they will not be found."

this just talks of "wicked" are Buddhist monks also wicked? are Muslims also "wicked"?

I'm just thinking aloud

"The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God..." Psa. 14:1

"Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver." Psa. 50:22

You can now decide whether buddhist monks who know the truth about GOD are wicked or not.

hopefulLandlord:
okay, that explains the story of Lazarus and the rich man who apparently still remembered how he lived his life despite being in agony or maybe that's just a parable and you won't remember anything

anyways, I can always keep count and feel fulfilled right on earth with every infant I impale

I knew you were gonna bring up the story of the rich man and Lazarus. Anyways, that parable wasn't about the fate of the dead. It was about the relation between the Jews and the Gentiles.

we'll burn forever and so do many Christians, many even believe we'll still have our memories

That is not what the Bible teaches. See Psa. 37:10

hopefulLandlord:
I already made it clear that whatever reason an infant dies, it goes to heaven be it Herod style or Yates style or my hypothetical style; dying guarantees salvation for infants either way doesn't matter how it comes

Erm... so?

hopefulLandlord:
yeah, I go to hell, probably put in the hottest part of hell but thinking about the thousands of soul enjoying in heaven for my infanticide make it all worth it especially for the fact that they would've most likely chosen Islam which would've made majority of those thousands of children go to hell

No bro. Nobody's gonna have time to think of anything in hell. Hell is simply the destruction/annihilation by fire which will happen to sinners at last. Sinners will cease to exist!

hopefulLandlord:
hmmm

that's all I wanted to hear bro!

I can just go to the middle east, kill as many infants as possible and viola! they all get to enter heaven rather than grow up in this sinful world especially with their high chance of choosing Islam or atheism

this was Andrea Yates' logic and it worked even if you totally disagree with her methods

"They get saved"

No credit goes to the murderer for "saving the kids." Instead of Andrea Yates, disease or a wild animal could have killed the infants too. The disease or the wild animal hasn't saved the child.

hopefulLandlord:
hmmm

that's all I wanted to hear bro!

I can just go to the middle east, kill as many infants as possible and viola! they all get to enter heaven rather than grow up in this sinful world especially with their high chance of choosing Islam or atheism

this was Andrea Yates' logic and it worked even if you totally disagree with her methods

I don't know what worked but certainly it wasn't GOD's will.

You can go to the middle east and kill as much infants as you want. On the last day, the full recompense of your deeds will be given to you.

hopefulLandlord:
really? did you see the word "unwittingly"?

bruh, this is simple logic, I'm not saying they killed to save

they killed the infants and deprived them of life on earth but at the end of it all, are they saved or not?

Who said you said they killed to save? Can't you read well again?

Or did they unwittingly take the lives of the children too?

For the umpteenth time, yes: the children are saved.

hopefulLandlord:
so did Herod and Yates not unwittingly save the infants by killing them?

No. They did not save the infants. They only deprived them of life on this earth which was meant to be enjoyed in a holy way, and after which an unending life would be enjoyed with GOD. The infants now sleep in their graves, awaiting resurrection to life, because they have no sin in them.

hopefulLandlord:
I believe WLC was clear enough in his explanation, if you disagree kindly tell me why

let me ask you a question

if I kill an infant, do they get saved?

Mind you, I'm not asking if what I did is wrong/right

Yes, they get saved.

hopefulLandlord:
you chose one part while ignoring the context of what I'm saying but would be quick to say we quoted a verse out of context

moving on

No matter the context, it can never be true that man gave salvation to anybody. Salvation comes from GOD alone.

good!

WLC's justification of infanticide by the Israelites was that the Israelites did no wrong to the infants because they (Canaanite infants) were automatically saved!

that annuls any command theory because the infants get salvation anyways even if god didn't command the killings

do you agree so far?

Sorry, I'm not here to agree or disagree with WLC.

However, I suppose it would be much more worse for an infant if his/her parents were slaughtered, and s/he was left alone an orphan.

On what the infants did to deserve death: answer is nothing! GOD gives and takes. Moreover, evil come to just people for no just cause too.

hopefulLandlord:
oh blood of FSM, where in my post did I say man gave salvation?

I said every infant that dies, no matter the reason for the death gets automatic salvation

do you agree with this logic?

I guess my eye really deceived me when I saw "Herod...gave the infants salvation."

Or maybe you suddenly became blind to the part of your post I bolded.

Anyways, yes: when infants die, they are saved, because they have committed no sin.

hopefulLandlord:
the question WLC is answering was "what did the Canaanite infants do to deserve being killed?"

which is what WLC was also arguing, he didn't pop up Command Theory when it came to the infants and I'm simply using this simple logic here

his logic goes thus

"any infant that dies receives salvation"

"when god kills an infant, its salvation"

"the Canaanite infants got automatic salvation"

the first logic, which is where it all started, is what I'm using here

if I commit infanticide I've given every infant I kill salvation, my motivation or reasons don't apply here, Salvation is the point

Yates even though you might disagree with her reasons actually gave the infants SALVATION!

Herod even though you might disagree with his motivation and reasons still gave the infants SALVATION!!

have we reached an agreement?

I'm heading somewhere with this discussion

Man cannot "give" salvation.

Oya continue.

akintom:
Before you gallop into meaninglessness, the first question is: by what means did you "know" this your outrageous claims?

By the means of my encounter with GOD.

SCENE TWO

(Person 1 enters and meets Person 2 still yelling...)

Person 2: (on top of his voice) ...ot exist! I can't see GOD! Therefore He does not exist. GOD does not exist!

Person 1: Okay, Okay Okay. I have a question for you: does the electron exist?

Person 2: (almost immediately) Yes of course.

Person 1: Have you seen an electron before?

Person 2: (stammers...) Erm... Scientists have seen the electron.

Person 1. If scientists have seen the electron: is it a zero-radius point or does it have a radius? What is its radius?

Person 2: ... (starts shouting after 10 seconds) GOD does not exist! GOD does not exist! GOD does not...

*light fades*

SCENE ONE

Person 1: I have a GOD. He created all that is seen and unseen. He predated matter, space and time. No one can see Him. He is a Spirit and, thus, invisible. However people who are pure in heart will see Him one day.

Person 2: Because I cannot see GOD, He does not exist.

Person 1: Really? Do you know that you just committed a logical fallacy? It is called "appeal to ignorance."

Person 2: ...

Person 1: Anyway, GOD has made Himself seen in the Person of Jesus Christ. Anyone who has encountered Jesus has encountered the Person of GOD.

Person 2: (starts shouting) GOD does not exist! GOD does not exist! GOD does not exist! GOD does n...(light fades)

randomperson:
U are d one not reasoning... The point is that god is a 'person' of the character that can command the killing of children. U guys say god doesn't change now... That means he still has that character and propensity... That he no longer does it again doesn't mean we should totally ignore past barbaric acts and not question them

Did He do it at all?

MrMontella:
how can the author of mark hear the story of jesus from peter when his gospel was full of ignorance about jewish life and customs?


Like having a sanhedrin jew buy a piece of cloth on the sabbath? Mark 15:46

or misquoting the ten commandments in Mark 10:19?

You're very ignorant. Jesus disciples were Jews and they plucked grains on the Sabbath. Nicodemus was a ruler of the synagogue and he went at night to meet Jesus, something the Jewish rulers would frown at.

4. The fig tree withered away immediately Jesus spoke. However, Mark says that the disciples heard the word that Jesus spoke. They didn't really start observing the tree. Of course, they were on their way to Jerusalem. The dictionary defines "wither" as "fall into decay or decline." So, immediately Jesus spoke, life left the tree and it fell into decline. By the time the disciples came the around the tree the next day, it was already dry and shrivelled.