₦airaland Forum

Elbinawi:
Nigerian economy at risk of ‘unravelling’, warns World Bank https:///KnSky9jhMB via @financialtimes

Sad

jln115:
The IPVs weren't bought to patrol the Mozambican channel, that would have been the job of the 3 OPVs ...........however that purchase has been deferred.

Rest of your post I agree with

..and you need more than 3!! Your coastline is Ginormous . At least,2 at anytime undergoing maintenance,2 on standby and 2 patrolling that incredible coastline of yours.

jln115:
They are horrible OPVs.......as Lurker said the new IPV are 62m and new OPV would have been 80m+

I dont think those IPV's will be able to patrol the Mozambican channel when completed,it will be too rough,which means your frigates will continue to patrol those waters.That must suck,because you need them fresh for their Job. Conflict.
You basically bought a Ferrari (Frigates) and have been using it like an Opel(OPV) .
The sooner you get real OPV's the better for the frigates. I think your government is wary of arms deals due to the 1999 scandal, I may be wrong,but each day that passes pirate fishermen are making a killing. We already have a problem with them up here.

kabe1:
..

The morale of the story (tanks). Don't take a gun to a missile fight.

Toju200:
try it and you'll be blocked..he never takes correction.
I tried to correct him lo and behold "You are blocked"

Toju200:
those gazelle doesn't belong to us they were loaned and piloted by foreigners

Then prove it to him. That's how you tackle errors.

Toju200:
You can imagine the level of exaggeration SSBN is putting out on his handle later some people will say we are jealous of his misleading talks.

He's coming SA and Nigeria and here's what he's saying.
1.Nigeria has 6 CH-3A and Two CH-3B which is wrong Nigeria will currently have a total of 6 CH-3 when the two incoming ones arrive.
2.Nigeria has 15 MI-35M whaatt? We never even get our twelve complete na 15 we con get.
3.Nigeria has Gazelle helicopters which is wrong we never had Gazelle helicopters.
4.Nigeria Has 10 Daimond ISR aircraft....Fat lie we have nothing less than two if I'm not mistaking.

He should stop his Exaggeration.
SSBN get ur facts straight

.
1.For the record,we acquired about 5 CH3a drones,of which 1 crashed. This is way back 2013-15, together with some Israeli Aerostar drones. There is a picture online of the 4 remaining in hangar.
2. When,the army initiated the idea of an aviation corp,they used gazelle helicopters. I have no idea where they are now.
I don't know who you are talking about, (SSBN) but I think he miscalculated on the mi35. Jonathan Goodluck ordered quite a few,but we had issues and it was delayed or cancelled,he must have added that.

Modified.
You are correct we will have a total of 6 CH3 , 4,CH4, and 2 wing loong.

bidex111:
#PressRelease #DHQUpdate

MULTINATIONAL JOINT TASK FORCE RECEIVES ADDITIONAL SUPPORT FROM EUROPEAN UNION

Donated C3lS? By EU?
Dump it after use, Greek gift.

kabe1:
I think that's a Pakistan air force JF-17, not Nigeria.

We both use similar roundels.

You are right,the Pakistani flag is close to the right engine inlet.
Modified.
I think,also the roundel is too light to be Nigerian but closely matches the Pakistani roundel.

Toju200:
tell that to the US too

How many did they kill?

Sanctions on the way,you don't turn the military on your own people.

jln115:
I can't fathom how they are able to effectively maintain in terms of cost and sustainability such a vast array of equipment from so many suppliers and countries

The Egyptian Armed forces is involved in more things than military in Egypt. Their economic footprint is everywhere.

jln115:
Nothing about the Meko360 puts it in another class as the Meko200 literally nothing, in fact its slightly smaller, carries less weapons and has a shorter range, nothing about the Meko360 makes it a Deystroyer or more independent vs the Meko200. And I said depth charges are obsolete hence you can't say Aradu was better equipped wrt ASW than the Meko200 because the Meko200 doesn't have depth charges.

And Aradu is designated as a frigate........only Argentina designated their ships as Deystroyers ..........Even the manufacturer classifies the Meko360 as a frigate.

Is the YJ-18 better than the Exocete mk3 or RBS-15?? debatable............

How many tubes does the Arleigh Burke class Destroyer have ? 2.........Does that make the Aradu better at ASW than a Destroyer?

By your own logic the Meko200 should have more torpedoes because its heavier............is this not what you said?

Destroyer
ASuW,ASW,AAW.
The moment a ship is hindered in any of these abilities,no matter the tonnage,range,the lethality of the weapon system.It is not a destroyer. It maybe a powerful frigate ship,it maybe capable sinking many destroyers,but it is not a destroyer. That is classification for you.
Even if it is heavier than a destroyer but lacks in one of those abilities,it is not a destroyer.
Aradu was classified in the 80s not 2020 as a destroyer based on 80s warfare,the most you can say is that its outdated as a destroyer.
yes or No, when Aradu was built and designated by some as a destroyer, was its depth charges effective to keep it operating at sea for a long period without help?
Yes or no is the current Meko200 (depending on configuration)as effective in full spectrum warfare far from home as Aradu was in its day?

Do you have the Excocert mk3 on your ship? Hence your ship is outdated.

Frigates are designed for different tasks, if an A200 for AAW for example weighs at 4000 tons the vast majority of its systems will be SAM. it could even have no torpedoes. Tonnage says nothing about what is stored in a frigate,rather the role it plays says a lot e.g. the south african A200 is AAW hence 0-4 anti-ship missiles.

The Arleigh burke was built a destroyer from the beginning,and averages 9k tonnes with 6 torpedo tubes just like Aradu.

Again, Destroyer is based on capable full spectrum warfare on one ship with the endurance to fight that war away from home lacking in no area of warfare.It should be able to hold its own at sea far from home. Most Meko 200 can do this in the AAW and ASUW area,but compared to a destroyer,they lack this in ASW. Can the maker design an A200 closer to Aradu?Yes definitely,but nobody asked for it.
Edit.
Even though Aradu can be classified as a destroyer by its function,its tonnage re-classifies it as a light/mini destroyer with moderate endurance. I have said this in my earlier post.
The Arleigh Burke is a standard destroyer because it has a weapons cache for extended warfare.

The use of depth charges today as a tactic will not be to hunt subs, but to ward off subs from attacking a ship, allowing the ship to survive in a hostile environment. So while it wont be used in an offensive posture it definitely can be used in a defensive tactic against enemy torpedoes and ships.

jln115:
We are not talking about the Valour class we are Talking about the Meko200 and yes besides some weapon systems like the main gun, ASMs and dual purpose guns the Meko200SAN and Meko200AN are basically the same ship.

And how many times must I explain that 4 tubes doesn't mean 4 torpedoes.......just like a rifle doesn't have just one bullet because it has 1 barrel. Also depth charges are obsolete hence why no modern destroyers have them, So your argument about having depth charges holds no water.

In terms of armament the Meko200 is closer to a destroyer than the Meko360.........although both are just frigates and small frigates to be honest.

You are arguing in circles again, going back to obsolence to determine if a ship can still play its role as a Frigate or destroyer. O.k. in 10 years time you ship maybe reclassified as a fishing vessel based on its weapons.
The ship was designated a mini destroyer by some in the 80s,thats its class based on its ability.
Even now,Chinese anti-ship missiles(YJ-18) have made your frigates anti ship missiles obsolete,should we called the frigates fishing vessels?

Aradu has 6 torpedo tubes, how many torpedoes does it have? You cant cheat on tonage. It is the 6-9k tonage ships that can have storage for more torpedoes.

jln115:
And how is the Aradu better than the more heavily armed, longer ranged Meko 200?

SMH, is your meko200 the same with Algeria's? How can i compare ships that can be modified by the builder for each customer to 1 ship?
Should I compare it to the new Zealand, turkish or Portuguese A200 that only has 8 anti aircraft missiles? Have you not been listening to the trade-off each navy must make? Are you saying I should compare with that of South Africa that has 8 antiship missiles and no torpedo's atm apparently. Though it is fitted to have topedoes. or is it the Algerian and SA a200 with just 4 torpedoes.

The issue is which is close to a destroyer in design, not more powerful or armed in a certain area of warfare.
24. Sam missiles is enough far out at sea where it is hard for aircrafts to reach.
8.antiship missiles are enough for independent operations against other ships.
4. Torpedoes in submarine territory far from home?
I will take 6 and depth charges any day. If not to kill at least ward off subs QED.

jln115:
chkil1 apparently your Navy bought duds that can't function independently and far from ports.....

One wonders why the manufacturer built the Meko200 with a range of 7200nm(almost double than most destroyers and frigates) when according to this arm chair General they can't function far from home

Why do you force me out of retirement
Oil tankers have more range. Do you now understand? I am talking about fighting independently without assistance,in enemy territory far from home for prolonged period .Not sailing range. Back to retirement on the issue.

At this point in respect for other commentators I rest my case . If you still don't agree..fair enough. \thumbsup

The A200 is based on proper NATO doctrine and are designed to perform well on one or two roles. However, AFAIK NATO won't used them in packs far from home.(enemy territory)They would simply build destroyers that can function independently in all spectrum of warfare with tonnage to survive a long campaign until replenished.
In essence frigates are mainly for defence while destroyers are for offensive action. Smaller navies will probably carry frigates with complementary roles to enemy positions to carry out task.

jln115:
"The MEKO® A-200 follows the famous MEKO® 200 series in a long line of general-purpose frigates. A fighting ship capable of full 4-dimensional warfare (AAW, ASW and ASuW, BCW)" - manufacturer

@dragon2

A frigate can be dedicated to Aaw,can be dedicated to Asw, or AsuW or can be dedicated to 2 out of the 3 main types of warfare but does not have the tonnage to be dedicated to all three types of warfare on an independent way ( far from port).
A ship maker can say it can build a frigate that can be adapted to perform any of the three types,but not all three at the same time far from port (destroyer). It just has not got the tonnage. A frigate adapted to mainly Asw will have more torps stored but will sacrifice elsewhere e.g. anti aircraft capability. The same frigate dedicated to Aaw will probably have no torpedoes but may have an anti-submarine helicopter on board, same ship will probably have more SAM's stored.
Within the same ship type,each navy will decide what role they want their frigate to perform based on the tonnage that a frigate generally carries.

Aradu was able to carry out all 3 roles by cutting down on anti-aircraft by a small fraction(24 missiles rather than 36),and adding depth charges to increase survivability at sea far from port. That's why 'some' call it a mini destroyer. Standard destroyers will weigh in at 6-9 k tons,while performing all 3 main functions( today including land attack roles).
I never said aradu is a Destroyer in the sense of tonnage (6-9 k tons),but in the sense of function (full spectrum independent blue sea engagement.).since Aradu does not have the tonnage but could just about perform the function it was called mini.
Modified
Aradu is not a standard ship by most navy doctrines, it does not fit with NATO or russian naval doctrine of naval power, its just a specific order by Nigeria and subsequently Argentina based on cost. So it was classified by some outside commentary as a mini destroyer.

jln115:
Yes the Super Lynx bought by SA was built specifically for the valour class frigate and When did I say a helicopter changes the class of a ship?

Depth charges are obsolete hence modern ships don't use them anymore, secondly you have 0 proof that the Meko360 carries more torpedoes, the number of tubes has nothing to do with the amount of torpedoes a ship carries, Arleigh Burke-class destroyer(a genuine destroyer) you mentioned early only has 2 torpedo tubes and 0 depth charges....... That's your argument totally done and dusted

Literally the point im making is the Meko360 and Meko200 are the same class of ship.....

Exactly,so don't talk about a ships ability( which determines its class) with helicopters as a determinant.
Don't add helicopters.
Again, you talk about being obsolete? When the Aradu was classified as a Destroyer based on its ability was it not based on what it could do at the time? Does its classification change with age or obsolescence.
It is easy to know if a ship has storage based on its tonnage. The meko200 and 360 are the same tonnage(about) the Burke is much more even if it has 6 tubes. Also,the ship, A200 has never been rated at having more than 4 torps.
Edit
Again,destroyers are know by their full spectrum warfare. The anti-sub capability of he A200 is what stops it from being a mini destroyer. Both ships are however, not true destroyers.

jln115:
1. Ignorance....."South Africa has ordered four Super Lynx 300 Mk 64 helicopters from AgustaWestland to operate from the SA Navy's Meko A200SAN class frigattes." these helicopters were specifically built with sonar, torpedo and ASMs to operate from ships and form an integral part of the ships systems.

2. Explain to me how the Meko200 is not as independent wrt to ASW than Aradu... Emphasis on" How"

3. I never once said sensors or modernity has anything to do with ship classification.... Obviously you have no idea what would classify a ship as a destroyer...

4. Point being?

Was th super lynx designed for the A200?
Are you aware that the same super lynx is also used by the Meko360? That the A200 uses a super lynx doesn't change its class because other ships can used the same helicopter with integration to it's system.

Not only does Aradu have more torpedoes it has more than enough depth charges to either destroy or ward off submarines far from home port,something the A200 cannot do without sacrificing on other abilities.
The ship cannot fight far from home against a hostile submarine fleet for long. To the level Aradu could .

3. Yes you did.......
compare:

Meko200 vs Meko360
SAM: 32 vs 24
ASM: 8-16 vs 8
Torpedoes: 4 vs 6
ASW Helicopters: 1 vs 1(Aradu 0)
Depth Charges:0 vs 1...........almost all modern day frigates(and destroyers) don't carry depth charges anymore they have been replaced by homing torpedoes

Not to mention Aradu's sensors are by todays standard obsolete.....

jln115:
1. And? I was Speaking about the Meko200 in general not the Valour class
2. Did I say it does?
3. Did I say it does?
4. Even if we take into account the age difference the Meko200 is more heavily armed than the Meko360, even when it comes to ASW, the Meko200 is just as effective as what the Meko360 was back in the day.

P.S ASW helicopters are part of the Meko200s system

The helicopter is not an integral part of the ship,no helicopter I know of is purposely built for a ship,neither is a ship classified by its helicopter onboard.
2. The A200 is not as capable at independent subsurface warfare as aradu was in its prime period. Just mention how the A200 is without talking about modernity or age. If you are talking about helicopters on board then you are wrong.

3. When ever we talked about ships you kept referencing sensors and modernity as if it was that determines a ships class.
4 Valour class is just a variant of A200 suited to South Africa. Some A200 are set up for ASW some for AsuW some Aerial defence. All A200 I know have only slight configuration differences.

jln115:
firstly I said Meko200 not Valour class.... Read and comprehend .... Secondly the Meko 200 has much better sensors for ASW than the Meko360 since its a much more modern ship, FYI depth charges are pretty much obsolete today hence no modern ship uses them any more. And just because a ship has 4 tubes doesn't mean it only carries 4 torpedos.....thats probably the most ignorant thing you have said today

1.The Valour class is the designations of South African Meko 200.
2. Sensors suit does not determine ship designation as frigate or destroyer.
3. Age does not determine ship designation as destroyer or not, the Ticonderoga class cruiser is older than aradu,the Arleigh Burke class of guided missile destroyers of the U.S. is about the same age.
A destroyer is determined by its ability to take on all aerial,subsurface and surface threats independently. The A200 is lacking in the subsurface ability, it has never been called by anyone as a destroyer. Aradu in it's day ways very capable of independent blue sea warfare against all threats and was hence labelled a mini destroyer.
Modified.
If you still don't understand,read about frigates and destroyers.

chkil1:
are you serious ? , you think a 80's fregate have better chance to survive to a sub attack than a modern fregate because it have one more torpedo launcher on each side what about sonars ? range ? torpedos tech and range ? Countermeasures decoy launchers ? ect... you think that detecting and killing submarines is that easy ?

but for classification ,yes , each navy can have its own classification , algeria have some missile patrollers (less than 600 tons ) classified as corvette

We were not talking about age. Age does not determine classification.

marvin906:
to the best of my knowledge ..
with what have read up there..
there really isn't a defined ship we can call a destroyer..
the aradu is classified as mini destroyer by our Navy but else where it might not be considered...
if this is the case I don't think we should give up on the aradu..
best I suggest the Navy close it's eye's and just splash the money on the aradu...
now this is my confusion in this topic as strong as the Egyptian and Algeria Navy non actually have this class why

It is too powerful. A ship that can attack a far away country is not easily sold,it can be easily used on its maker or allies. Defense based weapons are easy to sell; long range offensive weapons like ballistic missiles,refuel aircraft,aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers,nuclear submarines require a lot of politics and subterfuge to get.

Also,we are not talking about how modern a system or how well armed in certain areas but how close to a destroyer it functions and survives. Based on your dated? references are you suggesting old destroyers are no longer destroyers?

jln115:
Let compare:

Meko200 vs Meko360
SAM: 32 vs 24
ASM: 8-16 vs 8
Torpedoes: 4 vs 6
ASW Helicopters: 1 vs 1(Aradu 0)
Depth Charges:0 vs 1...........almost all modern day frigates(and destroyers) don't carry depth charges anymore they have been replaced by homing torpedoes

Not to mention Aradu's sensors are by todays standard obsolete.

What are we comparing? Weapon load or ability to survive independently in blue water? Any ship will be weary of aradu and valour in their primewith 8 antiship. A unit of 6 to 12 aircraft will be wary of both. But 3 to 4 hunter subs in a war scenario will go for the Valour but not aradu in the open ocean. Blue sea escort means you can expect to meet multiple subs from point a to b. At an average of 2 torps per sub that's 2 kills for Valour but up to 4 to 5 for aradu when adding depth charges. Subs would avoid aradu if possible. ALSO, your Valor ships only carry 8 antiship for now AFAIK.
Edit.
Be honest will you enter an enemy ocean swarming with subs with only 4 torps?
Full destroyers will need about 12 to 24.

SerikinGamo:
You took the bait

too sweet.

jln115:
The Meko360 is classified as a Frigate by the manufacturer...... however every country classifies ships slightly different, Nigeria classified Aradu as a frigate , Argentina classify its Meko360s as destroyers. Also the Valour class frigates have their own on board sonar as well a torpedoes and depth charges for ASW.........They dont rely on helicopters alone for ASW. The Meko200 especially that of Algeria and South Africa are more heavily armed than the Meko360.

This is a discussion about being a destroyer,not how heavily armed a ship it is.As I said aradu is a "mini" destroyer yet has more complete anti aircraft,sub and ship weapon suit than the valour class.
The valour has 4 torpedo's and no depth charge but the aradu has 6 torps. and depth charges. Which would you be in,in the middle of nowhere?.
With 8 antiship,6 torpedoes,24 anti-aircraft, and depth charges.Aradu is a more complete destroyer than A200.
Note,A200 does not have depth charges. It is all about the proportions needed to perform the role of blue sea escort. The Valour performs excellently in anti air, and antiship but needs to be close to port for anti-sub.
That is why you bought subs

marvin906:
is there any Navy in Africa with a battle cruiser and destroyer

Aradu was classified as a frigate by our navy,but was classified as a mini destroyer by many. The Argentine navy still classifies its fleet of meko 360s as destroyers. It all depends on navy classification.
Destroyers are blue sea escort ships as a result had to be full spectrum I.e. anti ship,anti-sub,anti-aircraft able to engage any type of enemy far from home. Frigates had 1 or 2 of this abilities but not all. In it's day aradu was a mini destroyer. The South African valour frigates for example AFAIK requires its anti submarine helicopter s for anti-sub warfare hence is a proper frigate. Based on that, only nigeria had anything close to a destroyer.I may be wrong
My 2 kobo.

The Federal Government has earmarked ₦19,316,524,954bn as security votes for all the major security outfits for 2021.

This is contained in the 2021 budget breakdown released over the weekend by the Budget office of the Federation (BoF).


In 2021, the National Security Adviser (NSA) will receive ₦ 5,400,000,000 as security vote; the Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) will receive N4, 370, 510,916 while the Nigerian Army will pocket 4,187,780,938 as security vote.

Under the budget, security votes are captured under recurrent items, which mean the amounts are less likely to be reduced to be tampered with by the National Assembly during budget review.

Others that will also get direct security votes from the budget are the Department of State Security Services (DSS) with ₦ 1,800,000,000; Ministry of Defence (MOF) ₦1,520,000,000; Nigeria Air Force ₦1,204,099,768; Nigeria Navy ₦520,000,000; Defence Headquarters with ₦200,000,000 and the Nigeria Intelligence Agency (NIA) will pocket ₦ 114, 133,332 .

Apart from these security votes in the budget, the Federal Government has offered to spend a lot of money on internal security in the New Year.

In 2021, the DSS has planned a safe city project at a cost of ₦ 216,899,253; procurement of body worn camera and microphones valued at ₦130,444,470; procurement of surveillance equipment – MG-EYES at ₦139,437,846 and the construction of 24 NOS LGA offices across six (6) geopolitical zones at ₦183,765,003.

The Presidential Air Fleet (PAF) will not be buying new aircrafts for the Presidency in 2021 but will engage in upgrades and repairs of old presidential air fleets.

In 2021, the PAF will carry out mandatory upgrade and installation of live TV and internet service on BBJ (5N-FGT) at a cost of ₦630,000,000; purchase new AW 139 helicopter gearbox at ₦1,650,020,000; comply with the mandatory upgrade on PAF aircraft at ₦1,800,000,000.

Read Also: Buhari to IGP: Police must be accountable to the people
The PAF plans to overhaul the President’s Gulfstream G550, Falcon 7X and CL605 aircraft engines at a cost of ₦2,400,000,000 and overhaul the President’s Challenger 605 and Hawker 4000 aircraft landing gears at ₦1,100,543,000.

On the part of the Armed Forces and the supervising Ministry of Defence (MOD) Headquarters, the ministry will spend ₦189,367,410 on anti-personnel landmine demining in contaminated areas in the North East.

The Ministry will also spend another ₦23,168,132 on verification/valuation for compensation of lands acquired by the Armed Forces of Nigeria; ₦50,000,000 on Armed Forces Remembrance Day Celebration and ₦45,000,000 to renovate three cemeteries in three geo-political zones.

The Defence Headquarters under the Chief of Defence staff is asking for ₦183,000,000 to purchase military camouflage tents.

The Army is asking for ₦981,310,588 to fence Nigerian Army lands and another ₦4,452,669,475 to renovate Nigerian Army barracks across the country.

In 202, the Nigerian Navy wants to procure 32 metre hydro survey ship at ₦1,536,913,247; procure landing ship tank at ₦6,156,373,475 and procure 4 X 17M inshore patrol craft (Area Boats) at ₦151,343, 22.

The Navy also wants to procure arms, ammunition, webbing and equipments at ₦800,000,000; complete naval war college Nigeria complex at ₦3,391,839,388; procure 3 X AW109 helicopters at ₦6,393,342,294 and upgrade the Nigerian Navy reference hospital Ojo with ₦1,885,883,334.

On its part, the Nigerian Air Force will be making balance payment for procurement of 3 X JF – 17 thunder aircraft, support equipment and spares at ₦17,665,326,652; make part payment for procurement of 1 X AW139 helicopter with ₦5,060,448,318.

The Air Force will also procure targeting pods for JF – 17 thunder aircraft at ₦3,761,420,000; procure various aircraft arms and ammunition for ₦ 650,000,000; procure various small arms and ammunition at ₦150,000,000.

They will also procure various aircraft spares at ₦566,853,426; acquire 3 X PD-1 Unmanned Aerial Systems (UAS), 2 payloads, 2 Ground Control Stations (GCS) and associated accessories at ₦271,088,902.

https://thenationonlineng.net/fg-earmarks-n19-3bn-for-dss-nia-nsa-others-in-2021/amp/

If this is to be believed,the first set of 3uavs (not the 8 ) is the PD-1 . possibly a Ukrainian surveillance drone.