₦airaland Forum

MY 2kobo. We really need more power down at infantry level. Its nice to be able to call on the air-force for strikes, but to go on a full offensive, weapons and tactics are necessary.The tactic side we are not lacking,but weapons and communication down to infantry or platoon level is key for a successful punitive ground assault. I dont think MRAPs should be used for search and destroy.Light attack helios can be used for that.You dont want to lose MRAPS if you are not taking and holding ground. The MRAPS should be saved for punitive expeditions where they are used with IFV's close at the back and tanks further out.
We all know that technicals are a problem for our infantry and bokoharam use them in a shoot and scoot tactic if we have a strong defence present.The armoured solution real time is IFVs , in the absence of IFVS, for the GI, smoke and frag grenade launchers are a must at platoon level.Smoke for concealment and frag as an indirect weapon when under fire.At company level ATGMs, (like the HJ 8,9,10& 12 ) is a relatively cheap real time alternative to constantly calling on airstrikes for technicals. Also,Sentry drones with IR, Night vision and Laser range finder, far ahead of base camp is also a must at platoon level.It will give the commanders prep time and tactical advantage in a fire-fight.
Our Infantry need to be able to go forward at all times but are being slowed by mines and technicals. We have to be proactive, both in assaults and hot pursuit tactics. We MUST NOT be slowed down by these problems when there are solutions out there,no matter the price.
The Army Command needs to raise its game.

bidexiii:
An American general atomics MQ-1C Gray Eagle UCAV lost in Niger due to technical issues....

I know a number of people who will want to have their hands on that.

Jimi24:
Running cost = ~$10,000 per hour
capital cost = ~$60,000,000.00
Pls dont believe internet prices.

The most important cost of any jet is the running cost,that tells you if you are buying a museum piece,training civilian pilots that fly the jets, or ...... Top guns.

jl115:
cruise speed for oryx is 152knts or 281km/h and the A109 is 283km/h or 153knts

Yes I know. What I am suggesting is that the envelope of the operating speed ( crusing and max)of the puma has been pushed by the oryx but the never exceed speed of the original manufacturer has been kept intact.

jl115:
"Anyway I'm not going to argue as 5km per hour is virtually nothing. So I'll coincide the fact that at the very least the A109 and Oryx have more or less the same speed."

According to the same source

The cruise speed of the A109 is 153knts and the Cruise speed of the Oryx is 152knts

Let's agree on that,on the question of attack helicopters, whatever floats your boat. This is a picture thread.It has been derailed

jl115:
My sources are straight from SAAF who operate both aircraft

Anyway I'm not going to argue as 5km per hour is virtually nothing. So I'll coincide the fact that at the very least the A109 and Oryx have more or less the same speed.

Maybe it is the never exceed speed they quoted,the max speed of the super puma from which the oryx came is 278kmph with a never exceed of 324

Defenc web coza 165knts = 305km
https://www.defenceweb.co.za/resources/fact-files/fact-file-denel-m1-oryx/

Speed: 190 mph (305 kph; 165 kts)
Ceiling: 23,507 feet (7,165 m; 4.45 miles)
https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=1522


http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/oryx.htm
Maximum speed 306 km/h

what site is that?Hope it ain't a fan boy site? No aircraft name?

jl115:
Bro did you even bother to look at the links?

Dean Wingren gets his stats straight from SAAF so does Defenceweb

The Oryx is slightly faster, has nearly double the climb rate, has a service ceiling nearly a kilometer higher than the A109...

The max speed is 306 if l am wrong show me.

jl115:
I already gave you a direct answer :

"It was used as a test bed for the development of an AH hence why it was called an AH"

I asked,what role is the test bed playing.

jl115:
"The Atlas XTP-1 Beta was an Aerospatiale SA.330 Puma converted by Atlas Aircraft Corporation as testbed for testing and evaluation of the Rooivalk"

What do you think it was

You ability to avoid giving a direct answer says it all

jl115:
You cant eve spell Rooivalk correctly yet you are trying to lecture me on its development? Lol

"The Atlas XTP-1 Beta was an Aerospatiale SA.330 Puma converted by Atlas Aircraft Corporation as testbed for testing and evaluation of the Rooivalk's dynamic systems."

What I said:

" It was used as a test bed for the development of an AH hence why it was called an AH"

What role was the test bed performing? Was it transport? Anti-submarine?Anti-surface ? ELINT? Ground attack? what role?

Level of development is based on doctrine.

jl115:
I wasnt talking about the Super Puma..

If you noticed I said Oryx

Even worse.the oryx max speed is less than the supa puma and a109,i was using safe cruising speed of A109. The max speed of a109 is 311km

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AgustaWestland_AW109

The Super Puma helicopter can fly at a cruise speed of 260km/h and a maximum speed of 278km/h. It can climb at a rate of 8.2m/s, offering a maximum range of 642km

https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/as332-c1e-super-puma-twin-engine-helicopter/


A109 max cruise is 285 Km/h

https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft/agusta-westland-aw109-power/

jl115:
Smh:

https://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/aircraft/3/a109-luh

https://www.saairforce.co.za/the-airforce/aircraft/53/oryx

You quoted a forum that gave you its never exceed speed as top speed.SMH Never exceed speed is not its operational top speed. There is no rate of climb quoted.

jl115:
It was used as a test bed for the development of an AH hence why it was called an AH

Wrong,level of development determines designation. If it was unarmed they may have called it prototype adc,xyz platform, as it begins to mature they hand it designations,the level of maturity determines the role and environment it is suppose to operate under.They roovalk is a modification for high intensity anti armour combat that suited the budget of the then SADF. The fact that the cant afford it anymore shows that doctrine has to change and capability gaps covered.Whether that occurs is a different thing.

jl115:
Thats exactly the point I was making

But just btw the Oryx is faster, has a better climb rate, and is more maneuverable than any A109

Do due research before spitting out rubbish

jl115:
the Rooivalk was developed from the Puma as was the Oryx........ The prototype was developed into a dedicated AH and a dedicated transport helicopter. That's the point I was making.

What was the prototype designated as even before the roovalk came to existence.what was the prototype that had reached beta stage called?

Jimi24:
One big advantage is the higher weapon payload when you have a big chopper in the AH role. Just fly off somewhere, land, reload new rockets and shells and re-join the battle.

I think our A109's ,due to their speed, will act as armed scouts/first responder to suppress the boko-haram technicals while the alpha jets (likely second responders) will arrive to bomb.The mi35 will probably come late and take out any remaining heavy technicals armed with AAA missed by the alphas,and the retreating forces wiped out by the A109's.

Jimi24:
YES.
I dont even know why we are arguing this. Very few chopper manufacturers are going to be doing single role helicopters im future. Rockets and missiles are getting smart, UAVs are being re invented as agile swarm vehicles and stand off override command and control of all missiles an aircraft has launched is going to be a commonplace capability.
Attack Choppers are going to be more like Super Pumas.

Indeed,heavy radar/optics with long range stand-off missiles guided by helicopter deployed drones. The sensor suite will be the winner.Agility will play less and less a role early on until the engagement range is within both helicopters radar.

Massive helicopter functioning as ELINT/AWAC at low terrain with long standoff missiles may appear in intermediate threat environments in future wars. A massive version of the Apache long-bow

Jimi24:
Stubborn guy but we like him. And to think that slow, big, lumbering Super Puma became an AH just by adding rocket pod and some precision guided munitions. That just won the argument.

Thats the funny thing,the roovalk came from a utility helicopter (puma) that they armoured,swept the engines back and removed the cabin space. He can't see the irony.

Answer the question,was the prototype called an attack helicopter?

jl115:
answer the question.... From the above prototype, what attack helicopter did it develope in to.

The roovalk

jl115:
Exactly and what became our attack helicopter?

You still don't know what an attack helicopter is. It is in the designation not the name. If a helicopter is designated in the attack role that is what it is,not if future adaptations were made.At the time of the picture it was designated as an attack helicopter which means it could fulfill the role. Speed,manoeuvrability, armour,night/stand-off capability, anti-armour or otherwise are add-ons.
Your own people told you that the helicopter in the picture is an attack helicopter at the time and you are trying hard to deny it. SAD.

jl115:
just read the last sentence bro what does it say?

This became the first orynx. So?

jl115:
Read the last sentence

Stop trying to sound wise,what matters is the description of the platform.The supa puma became the oryx and was described as as ............. You answer that.

jl115:
Look at the discription again

What is encircled?

jl115:
I guess our Oryx are also attack helicopters now.....

LoL,you killed your own argument.look at the description in the picture,I have circled it for you .Tell us what it says.
You MUST tell us.

jl115:
OK and? Nobody was talking about the MD530s that Kenya bought.....

what is the difference between the md530 and the A109?

To those who say we did not buy an attack helicopter,what type of helicopter did kenya just get?

Janes.com
The Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) announced on 23 January that its chief, General Samson Mwathethe, had commissioned its "next-generation" MD 530F light attack helicopters at the Embakasi base in Nairobi.
www.janes.com/article/93863/kenya-commissions-md-530f-helicopters

Military times.

The U.S. delivered six attack helicopters to Kenyan forces on Jan. 23 following an al-Shabab raid on the military base at Manda Bay, Kenya, that killed three Americans.
www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2020/01/25/us-delivers-attack-helicopters-to-kenya-following-attack-on-manda-bay/

From sputnik news
On Thursday, six MD-530F Cayuse Warrior light attack helicopters arrived at Embakasi Barracks in eastern Nairobi, where a symbolic handover ceremony transferred the aircraft from US Army to the Kenyan Army’s Joint Helicopter Command, according to a press release by US Africa Command (AFRICOM).....
https://sputniknews.com/africa/202001241078130460-photos-us-delivers-six-light-attack-helicopters-to-kenyan-army-amid-troop-withdrawal-debate/

Intelligencebriefs from 2017.

U.S government has cleared the purchase of 12 new American made light attack helicopter gunships to boost the country’s military air capabilities.
According to KDF sources, the new attack helicopters; MD530 F are set to replace ageing MD500 fleet.
https://intelligencebriefs.com/kdf-to-acquire-12-american-light-attack-helicopter-gunships-other-weaponries/


Finally, Army technologies.
MD 530G is a next-generation armed scout attack helicopter developed by MD Helicopters. It is designed to provide enhanced agility and firepower for the armed forces.
www.army-technology.com/projects/md-530g-scout-attack-helicopter/


So did kenya buy an attack helicopter?

Definitions are being mixed up,an attack helicopter is a helicopter used for interdiction of ground forces and CAS whether they are armed with rockets,missiles or just simply canons.The principle is to attack ground targets.So what we bought are attack helicopters by the same principle.What is being bandied as "attack helicopters" like the Apache, are anti_armour attack helicopters for high threat and intensity environments.Mi35 is a troop transport helicopter for high threat environments,that is why the Russians have a dedicated anti_armour attack helicopter.Mi 28.
The goal of the Apache was to stop Russian armoured tanks and AAA from rolling into Europe,that is why it is armed with ATGM and protected with heavy armour.That does not mean that helicopters armed with simple cannons are not attack Helios. Such small Helios are the history of attack helicopters.In fact the mangusta is partially based on the airframe of the A109.