₦airaland Forum

naijacutee:
I understand what you mean about us looking at the matter from two different views. Again, just as anything in life, to make an accurate judgement of something, one must first have all the information surrounding that event/character and also all the possible scenarios - just like, testing an unknown gas for combustion, solubility etc in order to determine what it is. Neither you nor I have all the facts surrounding biblical events. We weren't there, and even if we were, being the different people that we are, we could have interpreted the events in different ways. Based on this, coupled with the number of events in the Bible which positively outweigh the seemingly negative ones,   I can say that these events you speak of are not irrational. If you do however, wish to plough through these issues one-by-one with neither positive nor negative bias, I'll be more than happy to plough through them with you.

I know you were being cheeky  . Sorry, but I do not know enough on the subject to make a comment on. It is something I've never really thought about. On face value however, I will say that it is wrong. 

You sound sincere and I think you are, but there is no way we can get all the facts surrounding those events because we will only be confusing ourselves the more.
Why then don't we all agree that those issues do look inconsistent at face value but it could have some explanations which nobody has been able to come up with rather than these pathetic attempts at explanations which only bring more confusion?
I mean, a simple "I don't know" would suffice rather than these brazen attempts to prove a non-existent point at all costs.

slimfine:
you nairalanders make me come to work with my bible everyday

@ BINDEX

how can you accuse my Jehovah jireh of guilty of human sacrifice. those are man rule and God hated that. Read Deu 18:9 -----

God cannot be associated with anythin evil. "God please forgive those who despise you ( ethiest, scientist, etc), for they no no what they doing" Amen

That is very good, maybe if yu personally study it and not gobble up what some charlartans indoctrinate you with every sunday, yu might begin to see the inconsistencies being pointed out.

ajadrage:
Dudu, you rather have me confused, you believe Jesus to be one very reasonable fellow, yet you deny the very essence of his entire existence aptly elaborated by his own words in the entire 15th chapter of Saint Johns gospel. Here, he shows his relationship with his father whom he clearly identifies as a separate and superior entity. In fact, this particular chapter best sums up the entire purpose of Jesus in the ultimate fulfillment of Jehovah's purpose. I wonder, if you so respect this Jesus individual, why don't you respect he's message? Now this is beyond religion.

Having to come into knowledge the creator is not something that should be trivialized by infantile daring do and perceived infallibility as hearts could indeed be hardened upon contact with a truth. The issues have to do with truth, and believe you me, sooner or later, no matter what any one might do or say, the truth would be revealed like the thread topic states, and those living would see the truth from one end of the earth to the other and those that are asleep in death would be raised to witness this truth. I'm willing to best that some folks would be mighty glad at believing some of the things that they believe now, and it certainly wouldn't be them who take delight at denigrating the truth. . .

Don't confuse issues,

1. Respecting someone's view on certain issues does not equate to blind followership, it only means I keep an open mind, listen to everyone impartially and come to conclusions about things I can and not bother my head too much about things that are inconclusive.

2. The words of Jesus himself are often in parables and even was cause for contention amongst his own disciples atimes because they didn't understand what he meant, how am I then sure that these latter day empty heads who can't even see beyond their noses but are more interested in what gets into their pockets are telling me the truth?

3. Jesus at the least was a very sound social philosopher and at the most the Son of God he claimed to be but I remain unconvinced because all I have is his own word for it written in a book that has been shown to be fraught with inconsistencies and flip flops.

naijacutee:
[color=#000099]
@ duduspace. Which of the points? Even with our limited human minds, when examined in context, none of the actions of God (as God, not as man) seem irrational, when considered without bias. And to answer your question, no I don't. I sense you are trying to pry out my views on the topic.

There are a lot of the points, such as the inconsistency in killing Uzzah and sparing David I brought up and the other ones about the tower of babel, creation story e.t.c. that others have brought up and they do seem irrational (maybe not to you) because you are starting from a position (beleiver)which beleives that God exists and is the God of the bible and then finding excuses or explanation for his seeming inconsistencies while some of us start from the opposite side by either beleiving he doesn't exist(Atheist) or that he might not exist (Agnostic) hence being able to see the inconsistencies clearly because we have no reasons to find excuses for him.

About the question, that was just me being a bit cheeky but I wouldn't want to pressure you for an answer though I must say I find it a bit difficult to beleive that if yu're susceptible to temptation by food you wouldn't be susceptible to sexual temptation (being basic human desires you see) even though I understand that our genetic makeup determines our predisposition to such temptations.

While we are on the issue though,  I wouldn' t mind knowing what your view is on the matter.

bindex:
If Allah shows up i know that so many christains, buddhist, shirks, jews etc will not believe in him. How does that sound?

ROFLMAOPIMP
Good answer.

naijacutee:
I agree with you. However, I try not to do many things everyday. I try not to lie, but I still tell lies. I try not to gossip about people, but I still gossip. I try not to steal my housemates edikaikong soup in the fridge but I find that the soup has ended up in the microwave when I'm the only one at home. I can try, but I doubt that I will get very far. Which again, is probably why I'm not God/Jesus.

LOL, same set of vices I have here, noone says human beings are perfect. Unfortunately even God is appearing imperfect if  you consider some of the points raised here which seems to suggest he is some sort of human creation or idea isn't it?

PS: I hope yu are not going to tell me soon that you masturbate also even though yu don't want to? I remember another forum where some were saying that it is a sin.

naijacutee:
Ok, I apologise for saying I would have finished you all if I was God. But wouldn't you finish anyone who insulted you, if you had the power to? Human nature?

On the contrary, I will try not to (as it is one of the teachings of Jesus who I might not beleive to be God in flesh but was surely one very reasonable fellow, and the world would be a much better place if only those who claim to follow him actually do in deed rather than in words)

tpia:
I apologise for my comment.

I thought I was responding to Dios.

don't know why I thought it was Dios posting.

No offence taken, there are hotheads on both sides of the divide but I beleive we can make our points with decorum and civillity and not resort to "verbal violence"

I don't blame Dios though I might not agree with his use of words, some of your people have not been any better so I choose rather not to point fingers.

tpia:
You mean you're blind to your stank and rank language on this thread?

what has anyone said here that can compare to your abject use of curse words, swearing and racial epithets on all and sundry?

Are you the only atheist in the world, that a simple discussion on religion must unleash an avalanche of swearing and cursing and render you unable to function normally when taking part in civilized discussions?

I will expose you for the hypocrite or dunce you are, please cite just 1 example of my use of such words.

tpia:
so people being sure affects you in what way?

You don't believe, they do- why is it a such a problem for you that you have to start cursing, yelling and virtually foaming at the mouth at the thought?

You're trying to control what others do or don't believe?

Why are yu guys always so quick at pointing accusing fingers at others of doing things yu are the most culpable of? please answer these questions truthfully.

1. Who has always cursed and abused others on this forum? I remember one even saying she would have finished us?

2. Who concludes without any reasoning, facts or consistent model of behaviour on the part of the god they claim to beleive and serve serve?
The only reason offered being the simple reasoning behind a first cause being the origin of all causes, though how they jump from the first cause to equating that first cause to the God of the bible, they never explain and feel is a moot point.

He is not cursing or yelling at anyone or even trying to control what they beleive, he is only asking them to consider obvious inconsistencies in the model of god they beleive in and consider the truth that what they have is belief which cannot be supported by any reasonable fact.

Simply coming out to say I choose to beleive in the God of the bible (or Krishna, Allah or whatever God yu can come up with) because the complexity of things simply overwhelm me and I can't figure it out on my own would be a sincere starting point rather than claiming to know what you don't.

If people could start from the position in 4 above, then maybe there wouldn't be so many religious crisis and killing in the name of gods people can't even prove to exist don't you think?

iceland:
May be Seun should start a topic that says "Even God can not crash Nairaland "[/b]and see what happens next
If he is bold enough let him dare God!
@Dios I know deep inside, you want to know [b]Jesus But you are just confused!God is going to touch you real soon!Although In very hard way
Mark my Word!

There are a thousand and one things that can crash Nairaland (none of which I personally hope does) unsound business practices and terrorist attacks (of which you religious fanatics are quite capable to prove a point) to name a few, Seun can only try to mitigate them with sound Risk management practices.
If you trust in your God so much, go and drink acid and let us all see if your God will save you? the science that a lot of you deride so much might be the only option left to save you.

davidylan:
Have some sense . . . we know in the bible the Ark was usually carried around on slats of wood placed on the shoulders of 4 men. It was too heavy for men to merely lift with their fingers.

so they werent directly touching it. A lot of the time too the ark was moved on carts drawn by horses.

It doesnt really take so much intelligence as much as READING the bible to find out things for yourself sheesh!

The more you type the more i wonder how you managed to pass secondary school.

Oh yeah they were carrying the ark around in their arms.

Just saw this, so we are now separating between the Ark and the sticks used to carry it abi (wasn't the staves to carry it part of the design of the ark), did the bible specify which part of the Ark Uzzah touched?   pray wasn't the Ark supposed to be carried by priests? (note that you did allude to this in a prior post) but didn't the phillistines carry it around?
Anyway that is besides the point, my main point are the two questions you refused to answer

1. The punishment for touching the ark is death (according to you) but the punishment for killing a man (part of the 12 commandments)and taking his wife is also death as indicated in Lev 35, why was Uzzah killed and not David?

2. If David was allowed to repent, why wasn't Uzzah?

Yu can tell me it is becos David is a man after God's heart or whatever blah blah blah yu come up with but the fact is that it was favoritism on the part of God who you claim to be Just and Upright.

davidylan:
You've become boring and predictable . . . i have some sleep to catch. Its all about insults as soon as you guys get shown up for being clueless.

enjoy dear.

so much for "scientific formula are consistent" . . . even a nursery school child wont make such elementary mistakes.

And you have been blabbing rubbish all day, telling a different lie after being caught in another.

davidylan:
1. scientific formula are consistent - i am a scientist, that is why i am puzzled by this blanket fraud. If scientific formular where consistent most scientists would be out of jobs today. For instance, laws of gravity do not hold in space . . . therefore acceleration would not be the same on earth as it is in space.
- Partial oxygen pressure is not the same in Lagos as it is in the appalachian mountains . . .

- this are simple things i thought you people knew. Where are your vaunted "brains"?

2. So because global warming has divided people we shld ignore it totally?
- so because the bible has "divided" people through the ages we shld kick it to the curb? Has the bible divided you or you DELIBERATELY chose to be divided even though you know the truth?

Who is selectively reading now? for someone who claims to have read the whole bible and concocted this jumble of lies I find it hard to beleive that you could not read a statement through? Here is the full statement:

scientific formula are consistent [b]and define the conditions under which they operate.[/b]I don't think you are even a true christian, arent you supposed to tell the whole truth?

davidylan:
i don't see any questions to answer, only insults, deliberate mispeak, desperate attempts to obfuscate clear issues and a predilection for deciet.

Shamefaced lier, and what have you been doing all day? sorry I forgot, babbling and pretending to know things you don't have a clue about.

davidylan:
Read your own sentence . . . we all grew up listening to all this cock and bull stories but some of use our brains and actually question what we are indoctrinated with.

In essence, those of us who are christians are there because we don't "actually question" what we are "indoctrinated" with . . . because we can't "use our brains".

Congrats for having a "brain" . . . i simply said that evaluation of your views does not indicate anything close to brain work if not you would have done the background study on the laws governing handling of the ark before crying about Uzzah as if he were your uncle.

Don't and Can't are two different things and please feel free to be ashamed of yourself for not using your brain because you've only always introduced more questions than answers and never answered anything while in your conceited opinion, you wrongfully assume that you've answered all questions.

davidylan:
Another puerile attempt at mockery.

If i read a textbook and ask you to read the very same thing, both of us will come out with different angles of the same story.
It really isnt so hard if you engage the "brains" you boasted to us that u had.

A charlartans pathetic attempt at obsfucating the truth, scientific formula are consistent and define the conditions under which they operate.
How can we take what your book says as fact when it has continually divided opinion all through the ages and still continues to do so?

davidylan:
LadyT asked an important question . . .

why is the athiest always consumed with irrational hate and anger when it comes to christianity?

Where is this rage when it comes to other religions? If christians where the ones who flew planes into the WTC on 9-11 christians would be endangered species today.

Why do the heathen rage?

Who started with the rage? you are an hypocrite or what do you call this?

Dudu said it was "brain" that made him "question" the bible . . . we examine his "questions" and lo and behold they are found to be lacking basic knowledge and intelligence.

In what way is that different from what I've written?

davidylan:
funny, let me take just 2 of those "denominations"

Baptist - believe in water baptism as EXTREMELY essential for complete salvation . . . well we know there are certain examples in the bible where that did not hold and for very valid reasons. Baptism is important however.

Mormon - have their own extra-biblical document which does not agree with the bible.

Where are the CONTRADICTIONS that brought about the two denominations?
And you call others dumb. What a freaking shame.

Even you are bringin out the contradictions yurself and still asking me where they are? how do we even know whose account to beleive? oh so the bible is interpreted by men after all and each one chooses what he beleives, so your God wasn't even specific enough on what he wanted of you abi?

davidylan:
Good night guys. I have a game to play . . . i thot i was bantering with people who have something beyond cottonwool upstairs.  

Duduspace can't even maintain one narrative. Jumping from place to place.

first he had no clue why Uzzah died . . . we had to tell him

Next he didnt know the repercussions the philistines faced . . . we had to tell him

He didnt know who brought the ark back . . . we again had to tell him

and he blames God for flip flopping? If only he could maintain one story. Its the sad tale of the deluded athiest.

As for Huxley . . . no difference . . . brings up a verse and doesnt even understand it at all. Ask him salient questions and he either deceptfully tries to force you to answer them or he shies away by changing the subject.

do these people even have the brain they cry about?

Dudu said it was "brain" that made him "question" the bible . . . we examine his "questions" and lo and behold they are found to be lacking basic knowledge and intelligence.  

Its obvious you see a mirror image of yourself in others, what an idiot and an hypocrite. At least let others blow your trumpet before giving yourself a pat on the back. And why referring to yourself in the plural "we"? a visit to a shrink might be in order for you as that is a symptom of multiple personality disorder though I'm sure you'll come up with some concocted explanation of having God or some other spirit in you. Typical idiot bereft of ideas and clutching at straws.

davidylan:
Priests brought them back . . . go back and read the scriptures again.  
Uzzah died immediately . . . there is no flip flop there save for the ones you want to deliberately see.

where? We've suddenly changed the subject to denominations? Confused arent we . . .

You are sounding like a numbskull, I was only pointing out that the contradictions are inherent in the bible and don't need anyone puttin them there since the contradictions are responsible for the number of denominations in christianity. Are you that dumb you couldn't figure that out?

davidylan:
Priests brought them back . . . go back and read the scriptures again.  
Uzzah died immediately . . . there is no flip flop there save for the ones you want to deliberately see.

where? We've suddenly changed the subject to denominations? Confused arent we . . .

where is your own answer? I asked you  first. And besides you brought up the verse . . . i am not obliged to tell you the answer. Go study up on your own charges first before making a fool of yourself next time. I save answers for serious individuals.

Bros, yu are adding lying to your other Indecency related sins o, werent yu the one who wrote this before?

davidylan:
8They sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the Philistines unto them, and said, What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither.

Dem even dey take the Ark do cross country parade abi wetin be the meaning of carrying about?

davidylan:
stumped?

You posted a verse and could not answer a basic question of what it meant . . . and you claim i'm the one stumped? O boy na wa for you o. If i was "stumped" i wouldnt have pointed out that most important point for you in the first place.

1. Labour so much to bring out because the bible isnt a novel that you read in 5 mins and run away with complete information. We have to go back and start reading the law to you one after the other.

2. Further contradictions? Of course the ones you forcefully want to push in there so you can continue hyperventilating.

3. True dear, you see only what you want to see. Thank you for accurately explaining your position.

Make i play Age of empires III while you people are still scratching ur scraggly heads.

Another prime example of your hypocrisy, if I was the one putting the contradictions there, why the number of christian denominations? why can't you even all agree on one meaning for the bible?
Bros, pls stop patching a leaky bucket and buy a new one.

davidylan:
there is nothing stinking here dear dudu . . . its funny how you desperately struggle to find something to claim. You werent even aware the philistines suffered ANY repercussions in the first place.  

Not all the philistines died because not all of them touched the ark, infact only very few did.

What are your 2 questions i dodged? post them CLEARLY so i can see them. You people and your mysterious claims of dodging.  

Don't be too sure I wasn't aware that the phillistines did suffer repercussions, I was only referring to those who brought the Ark back.

If all those that touched it died, Please how did they bring it back? besides werent they supposed to die immediately on touching the ark? own up my brother, your God is not consistent, he flip flops.

Besides, in no place in the bible does it make this clarification you are making. Are  yu sure you are not writing your own bible?

LadyT:
I hate bible bashers.

But if you ask questions expect answers

As I said being a Christian is a way of life and we have a right to defend the way we live our lives.

I must go to bed.

Night everyone

 

I expected answers but those I got didn't sound genuine rather sounded like contrived answers leading to further confusion.

Aren't you supposed to love us unconditionally?

Yes you do and you should but not by deception or not facing up to obvious flaws in the dogma.

Angels north, angels south, east and west just do your best to guard and keep her while she sleeps.

A good lullaby isn't it?

davidylan:
that is false. what you want are people who just blindly claim that all they have is belief and no facts. The bible is replete with facts and corroborative evidence. Its impossible to bring up just one verse in isolation . . . you have to dig deep to find out what it means in the context of others.

That is one issue i find sorely lacking in you folks who claim to have brains and crow so loudly about "questions".

Now back to our case of Uzzah.

Facts and corroborative evidence that you have to labour so much to bring out and which when brought out further contradicts other portions of the same scripture that you hold as absolute truth.
You see what you want to see my guy, that is why we never stop hearing of 666 and the antichrist. Even some idiots beleive that a certain Nostradamus has seen all that is going to happen to all of us abi no be so.

davidylan:
1. The fact that the ark was no longer in the holy of holies did not suddenly render the ark useless . . .

2. You said something about the philistines not being struck dead?   Did you EVEN READ why the philistines had to beg the Israelites to come take their ark away? Read the pitiable tale of the philistines, the men of Gath and the Ekronites . . .

Let me regale you with the tale (pay attention as you read):

1 Samuel 5
1[b]And the Philistines took the ark of God[/b], and brought it from Ebenezer unto Ashdod.

2When the Philistines took the ark of God, they brought it into the house of Dagon, and set it by Dagon.

3And when they of Ashdod arose early on the morrow, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the earth before the ark of the LORD. And they took Dagon, and set him in his place again.

4And when they arose early on the morrow morning, behold, Dagon was fallen upon his face to the ground before the ark of the LORD; and the head of Dagon and both the palms of his hands were cut off upon the threshold; only the stump of Dagon was left to him.

5Therefore neither the priests of Dagon, nor any that come into Dagon's house, tread on the threshold of Dagon in Ashdod unto this day.

6But the hand of the LORD was heavy upon them of Ashdod, and he destroyed them, and smote them with emerods, even Ashdod and the coasts thereof.

7And when the men of Ashdod saw that it was so, they said, The ark of the God of Israel shall not abide with us: for his hand is sore upon us, and upon Dagon our god.

8They sent therefore and gathered all the lords of the Philistines unto them, and said, What shall we do with the ark of the God of Israel? And they answered, Let the ark of the God of Israel be carried about unto Gath. And they carried the ark of the God of Israel about thither.

9And it was so, that, after they had carried it about, the hand of the LORD was against the city with a very great destruction: and he smote the men of the city, both small and great, and they had emerods in their secret parts.

10Therefore they sent the ark of God to Ekron. And it came to pass, as the ark of God came to Ekron, that the Ekronites cried out, saying, They have brought about the ark of the God of Israel to us, to slay us and our people.

11So they sent and gathered together all the lords of the Philistines, and said, Send away the ark of the God of Israel, and let it go again to his own place, that it slay us not, and our people: for there was a deadly destruction throughout all the city; the hand of God was very heavy there.

[size=14pt]12And the men that died not were smitten with the emerods: and the cry of the city went up to heaven.[/size]

Uzzah was killed for TOUCHING the ark NOT for approaching it . . .that is why David wasnt killed. Pay attention young man. Now Leveticus talks of APPROACHING the mercy seat placed above the ark in the tarbernacle.

Because an unclean hand CANNOT touch the ark . . . only the priest is allowed and AFTER he has cleansed himself . . . the law was already spelled out in Leveticus 16

The entire story is "fishy" because it has to . . . how else would you find an excuse to thrash the bible?  

Something still stinks here, maybe the emerods on the phillistines but its a pity you don's smell it or rather yu don't see it,

1. Why kill some and not all of the phillistines, why the unequal treatment? still quite some inconsistency  but maybe it was because he needed someone to bring the Ark back abi?

and you still largely dodged my other 2 questions and you can change my use of "approach" to "touch" rather than your sermonizing about approaching the mercy seat even though you should know that you would need to approach before touching.

LadyT:
What I can't understand is your rage towards those of us who believe?

I don't know what death is like and you don't know what being a Christian is like so I guess we are at a cross roads.

On the contrary, no rage at all from my side but I do appreciate people who question things more and who will be straightforward enough to own up that all they have is belief and no facts.

LadyT:
I can't see what is wrong in loving one another and having peace and knowing when we do die there is a beautiful place of rest.
There are many false teachings and practises but being a true Christian is not about going to Church its a way of life.

No true Christain is HOLY.  We are sinners we make mistakes we do the wrong thing but we are human.

I have no problems with whatever you beleive in that makes you sleep better at night afterall some people beleive in Pooh-Pooh bears. But shoving it down our throats as fact is a different matter entirely.

LadyT:
You're looking for a paradox.

Where is the words you MUST kill?

Death is not the worst thing that can happen to you.

Just ask the guys in Kirikiri

Not looking for a paradox at all and you point about death not being the worst thing is unfounded cos you don't really know what death is like, besides aren't you the ones expecting us to be quaking in our boots at the fear of death becos according to yu we are going somewhere hotter than the sun?
my point is according to the bible "An eye for an eye" and you know what that means when you talked about proportionate judgement.
I've explained the other points in my post to David.

davidylan:
So the rest of us have no brains to use?  
With all your "brains" did you EVER read WHY the ark was to be touched by priests alone?

The first time i read the story of Uzzah i immediately demanded to know why God would kill Uzzah for trying to stabilise the ark . . . then i went back to read the law that God gave to the children of Israel.

- Did you know that the ark was a symbol of God's very presence on earth? Lev16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

If you notice, God even warned Aaron here that if he came before the ark he would die?  

- Did you know that the ark was to be hidden behind a veil in the temple, away from the view of the people but only accessible to the high priest who MUST CLEANSE himself before going into the "holy of holies"? Lev 16

My dear . . . THAT is what is meant by "questioning dogma" . . . not being lazy and just regurgitating the nonsense athiests spew. If you had brains as you boast, why did you not see the slew of biblical verses that EXPRESSLY command the children of Israel how to handle the ark?

I question it everyday . . . that is why i laugh at the silly questions you guys bring up because it is obvious you don't do your homework well at all.

I knew you would come up with this but even then you evade my point:

1.  The Ark was no longer in the holy of holies and had even been handled by the phillistines who "according to the bible" put it in their temple abi with the supposed bowing down of the phillistine gods, God no strike the phillistines dead but it was someone who tried to help who was struck dead.

2. The same bible that made it an offence for someone who wasn't a priest to approach the Ark also made it an offence punishable by death to kill another person so if Uzzah was killed for his transgression, David should have been killed too.

3. If David was given the opportunity to repent, why wasn't Uzzah?

The entire story looks kind of fishy to me and it does shows the God of the bible as being kinda inconsistent.

LadyT:
Good question Chris.

Punishment must be equal to the crime.

Does an eye for an eye mean you must kill?

NO!

Confusion break back bone, what is equal to death? and what is equal to helping an Ark that was about to fall?
It seems God is not very good in mathematics or probably his definition of equals is different from our definition? but wait a minute, the bible was written for us and not for God abi. Possibly some error in translation?