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Christianity Etc › Re: Christians And Atheists Etc: Pls Read And Digest This by Dulcet7(m): 4:54pm On Jan 13, 2011

@OP:

What category of people did Jesus in the bible say will be in hell? What category did those inspired to write the bible say will be in hell?

Please answer with scriptures.

Christianity Etc › Re: I'm Losing My Faith In Christianity by Dulcet7(m): 4:51pm On Jan 13, 2011

JeSoul:
Re: I am losing my faith in "christianity".

Poster, I may be the only one on this thread that thinks that this is a great thing for you. Perhaps if you lose this 'christianity', you may find Christ and if you lose this 'religion' you may find God. I encourage you to continue asking questions, God will guide you if you put your trust in Him. Godbless!

Christianity Etc › Re: Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(op): 4:39pm On Jan 13, 2011

"Three of Mother Teresa's teachings that are fundamental to her religious congregation are all the more dangerous because they are believed so sincerely by her sisters.

Most basic is the belief that as long as a sister obeys she is doing God's will.

Another is the belief that the sisters have leverage over God by choosing to suffer. Their suffering makes God very happy. He then dispenses more graces to humanity.

The third is the belief that a[b]ny attachment to human beings, even the poor being served, supposedly interferes with love of God and must be vigilantly avoided or immediately uprooted[/b].

The efforts to prevent any attachments cause continual chaos and confusion, movement and change in the congregation. Mother Teresa did not invent these beliefs - they were prevalent in religious congregations before Vatican II - but she did everything in her power (which was great) to enforce them."

– Susan Shields, former sister with Missionaries of Charity.

Christianity Etc › Mother Theresa As A Great Christian / Catholic Example :: Fable Or Fact? by Dulcet7(op): 4:37pm On Jan 13, 2011

Here is an article I found about the Mother Theresa you may have never heard about. Please respect the thread and keep insults out of the way. If you disagree with anything here just provide your reasons and if possible, reference or evidence for it.

An Albanian, born in Skopje, Macedonia, Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu at the age of 17 joined an Irish order of nuns, the Sisters of Lareto, so named for the place in Italy that has Jesus's house, flown in specially by angels from Nazareth.

Dulcet: Let me break into the Mother Theresa article here to state that there is a lot of recent evidence that Nazareth was actually a burial ground with tombs in the 1st century A.D. It did not start becoming a village until later at the 4th century so either the dates are wrong by 400 years or else maybe Jesus was born elsewhere (Nazareth does not even show up in the Old Testament or the Talmud. St Paul and Rabbi Soli's real and fake writings don't mention Nazareth either, nor does any ancient historian or geographer). In fact the church Father Origen in 3rd century knew the gospel story of the city of Nazareth ~ yet had no clear idea where it was ~ even though he lived at Caesarea, barely thirty miles from the town - that Empress Helena went to in 4th century and found nothing except a hole in the ground - the only source of water in the area. Quickly Helena said the well was the place where angel Gabriel appeared to Mary.

This Jesus-of-Nazareth business started with the writer of Matthew who stylishly rewrote the Nazarite concept as Nazarene as if a native of Nazareth and fabricated a village in 1 A.D. Nazareth to put Jesus in. Luke copied the idea from Matthew and destroyed it while stretching it: ", and brought him to the precipice of the mountain that their city was built upon. – Luke 4.29" whereas it is known today that Nazareth is a high basin set in a depression and there is no peak or cliff anywhere around it.

Our heroine took the name Teresa and accepted missionary work in India. Twenty years passed before the Vatican allowed her to leave her post in the convent and work directly in the city of Calcutta. Here, under the jurisdiction of its archbishop, the canny Teresa identified a niche market, the dying poor, whose souls at least could be dispatched to the Catholic Heaven. Until her own death in 1997 Teresa spent her life actively seeking publicity – and funds – for her mission.

She formed a group, the Missionaries of Charity, to help street people die with a little dignity and Catholic sacraments ringing in their ears (they were too far gone to realize they were being baptized into a faith they neither knew nor cared for). Her first Home for the Dying opened in 1952 and some 450 others followed, in India and around the world, including an AIDS hospice in New York.

Contrary to popular myth, she did not build hospitals or offer medical care to the sick. Teresa's policy was one of non-intervention, in which God decided who was to live and who was to die. She actually ran a primitive and poorly equipped hospice, where "saved" Indians could meet their Christian maker. Although she preserved her own health at costly Western clinics (and had a pace maker fitted) she forbade the purchase of even basic medical equipment for her clinics.

Teresa was not interested in making the poor less poor (by, for example, helping them restrict family size) but in making them more Catholic.

The late 1950s and early 1960s was a time of crisis and internal dissension in the Roman Church, as it stumbled towards an accommodation with the modern world. The Second Ecumenical Council (Vatican II - 1962-1965) was either the "springtime" of a new Catholicism or the start of the rot which has seen attendance of Mass decline by 66 per cent and the number of teaching nuns fall by 94 per cent.

Into this fury of Catholic in-fighting entered "Mother Teresa" and her houses of death, a pinup for the forces of Catholic reaction. Teresa's Christianity was quite simply medieval. She urged the poor to think of their suffering as a "gift from God." She described abortion for ra[b]p[/b]e victims as "pure killing." Her small Calcutta clinics eschewed the use of painkillers in accordance with the primitive doctrine of "redemption of the soul through suffering".

A British media luminary (and pious Catholic) Malcolm Muggeridge now took a hand to elevate to stardom the diminutive zealot he so admired with a hagiographic movie "Something Beautiful for God" (1969), proclaiming to a credulous media circus that "an actual miracle had taken place during filming".

The exemplar of a good Christian was formed and was quickly embraced by a papacy fast retreating from the high tide of liberalism. Jet-setting the world went Teresa, her saintly celebrity rallying the faithful in hot spots of evangelism and extracting funds from Catholics who served Christ vicariously through their chequebook. And the money certainly poured in, notoriously from the likes of the Duvalier gang in Haiti and Charles Keating, the biggest fraudster in US history (the Lincoln Savings and Loan scam). Keating chipped in more than a $million for Teresa and she reciprocated with a character reference for his day in court. The Lord sure moves in mysterious ways.

Journalists have estimated the Missionaries of Charity receive as much as US$100 million a year, although no accounts are published. Some maintain that the money is transferred to the Istituto per Opere Religiosi (the Vatican Bank), where it is diverted into non-Christian countries for "missionary work" – more nunneries and convents. A 1991 audit of the UK operation revealed that only 7% of the total income of about US$2.6 million went into charity work. The rest was remitted to the Vatican Bank.

On 5 September, 1997 Teresa died. Her crony, Pope John Paul II, the most prolific creator of saints in history, couldn't wait to get beatification underway. Precisely one year after Teresa's death the required miracle occurred. A photograph of Mother Teresa beamed a light at a Calcuttan woman and overnight she lost a big tumour. Wow! In October 2002, the Congregation for the Causes of Saints recognised the miracle and a year after that John Paul beatified his old pal. Can any one doubt that the necessary second miracle is just around the corner and a new star will join the firmament? As the Yorubas say, 'The witch wailed last night and the child died today. Know we not that the witch killed the child?"

What do you think?

Romance › Re: When Hidden Defects Becomes exposed by Dulcet7(m): 8:19pm On Jan 12, 2011

There was a certain very pretty lady who had an awful mouth odour. My heart sank! grin

Christianity Etc › Re: Re: Congrats Joagbaje On Winning The Religion Section Poster Of The Year 2010 by Dulcet7(m): 7:42pm On Jan 12, 2011

Congratulations, Joagbaje!

Christianity Etc › Re: Pastor AIO, Come Teach Us The Truth. by Dulcet7(m): 5:07pm On Jan 12, 2011

Dear friend,

I stumbled on this thread ~ and I totally recommend this thread as an enriching discussion ~ it is an interview of a theist, leading to a discussion with other Nairalanders.

Here are some quotes which I am very persuaded about:

Pastor AIO: Anyway, let's move on to religion. Without talking about God directly I want to say that I believe that our concepts and our perceptions are some degrees removed from Reality and truth. Therefore whatever we think, whatever ideologies we entertain, can never be the Truth as it really is. This applies to everything, not only God. We can never have an accurate concept of God. Similarly we can never even have an accurate concept of our own being.

Krayola:
[size=13pt]"When your intellect conceives of God, do not permit urself to imagine that there is a God that exists as depicted by you. For if you do this you will have a finite and corporeal conception of God, God forbid. Instead, your mind should dwell on the affirmation of God's existence and then recoil. To do more than this is to allow the imagination to reflect on God as God is in Himself and such reflection is bound to result in imaginative limitations and corporeality. Put reins therefore on your intellect and do not allow it too great a freedom, but assert God's existence and deny your intellect the possibility of comprehending God" 16th century kabbalist Moses cordevero[/size]

This quote is awesome.

and this one too:- an Indian "mythical" story

Pastor AIO: When Man was first created he had so much Power and knowledge that certain gods became afraid. The connived together to steal the powers of Man. After the deed was done they were left with a problem. 'Where do we hide this power that we've stolen from man'?
They held a meeting and discussed. Some gods suggested that they hide the power in the Earth.
'No', said another god, 'this man is so crafty and curious that if we hide the power in the earth his curiosity will one day lead him to dig into the earth and he will rediscover the power'.

Another suggested in that case that they hide it in the wind. but again they concluded that crafty man would eventually investigate the wind and extract the power from it.

Some suggested Fire. But again they concluded that man would soon discover all the secrets within fire. Water was suggested, but that was soon dismissed too. There seemed to be no solution to the problem.

But then one young yogi (there were yogis at the meeting too) had a brilliant idea. He said,' let us take this great power and put it inside Man himself. I bet you my bottom dollar that when he awakes and finds his power gone he will begin his thorough search of Fire, Water, earth and Wind, but it will never ever occur to him to look within to find the power'.

All the gods rejoiced at the brilliant plan and that is what they did. They placed the Truth deep within the man himself and indeed till this day man seeks high and low and makes a thorough investigation into everything but it never occurs to him to quieten down and probe within.

Pastor AIO: I see what you mean. I guess it is in direct contrast with what a lot of churches teach because those churches teach one to look for salvation in various phenomena around you rather than within you. eg. salvation is in the Bible, or salvation is in the pastor, or salvation is in the holy water, or the icons or whatever wherever. It could be that God is closer to us than we think, closer to us than our jugular vein, as a certain arab camel herder once put it. If it were not so then certainly those who are closer whether they be birds or beasts will certainly get to him before we do.

Deep Sight: Well Pastor, we need to bring this to a close, so is it safe to conclude the following:

1. You believe in God, a supernatural creator of the universe, et al

2. You also believe in the Christ, and draw essential christianity therefrom

3. This Christ you believe to be love, harmony and order inherent in creation, and not necessarily knowledge of the Earthlife of Mr. Jesus from Nazareth and as such -

4. Any person of any religion, tribe or philosophy who can key-in with that love inherent in creation is well placed therein, and may experience the "harmony" that results therefrom, and this may in part be understood also as spiritual salvation.

5. Guidance comes through the spirit, which provides contextual ethics for man: that man may know right and wrong on a situational basis, each situation being different, as opposed to codified and rigid laws.

m_nwankwo: We should not taken things (religious discussions) too serious or else we become fixated to forms and become imperceptible to the pulsating power of God which shapes the forms

Pastor AIO: From my experience of Christ I believe that knowledge of him results first in a sense of being Loved. The world suddenly becomes more cosy, nothing will harm you. The Love is almost tangible it emanates off everything around. It is out of this feeling of being loved, or love pouring unto you that it gets to a certain level that it overflows and you start to exhibit the love back in your actions. It then seems like the love is pouring out of you.

You're not forcing yourself to love (or act as if you love) because that is what it says in the rule books. It is a part of your nature, you can't help it. Love becomes effortless. Whereas with the carnal mind it is something that you beat yourself up over. "I must be more loving. I must be kind because this is what the bible says I must do. Why didn't I show that other guy kindness, that was wrong of me, father please forgive me, I will make myself a more loving person by force by force by force."

Love comes from the experience of Christ. You don't earn Christ by Loving. that is the wrong way round. Being Good/righteous comes from the divine influence in your life not the other way round whereby if you are good then you earn divine favour.

By experience of Christ I guess I mean a experience whereby you feel LOVE and you feel a sense of an intentional Order in the universe. I couldn't say that these are the defining characteristics of the experience but they come associated with the experience.

This first experience of love is what I also called the first spark of salvation here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=575273.msg7505010#msg7505010

m_nwankwo: To judge correctly wheather something is good or evil, one has to be able to sense the core (spiritual decision), the motive, the imagination, the thoughts, the words and the actions. Unfortunately, most of us are only able to make judjement based on the the shells particularly words and actions and then we go astray. That means that we rely on the human brain to judge and the human brain in itself cannot recognise the will of God, that is it is incapable of differentiationg good from evil except it is directed by the human spirit.

I do not rely on books to make spiritual decisons. I rely on the faculties of my spirit and these faculties are capable of looking into the book of life and draw from it events that has happened in the past.

Fitra: A Return to a Natural State
"And so, set thy face steadfastly towards the [one ever-true] faith, turning away from all that is false, in accordance with the natural disposition (fitra) which God has instilled into man: [for,] not to allow any change to corrupt what God has thus created-this is the [purpose of the one] ever-true faith; but most people know it not." (Surah Ar-Rum, The Byzantines, ayat 30)

The above quote is a reference to the concept of "fitra", a basic belief in Islam. "Fitra" is an Arabic word that means "innate human nature". Islamic theology contends that we are born into a state of "fitra" and have the innate knowledge of "tawhid" or monotheism, however, we are also susceptible to corruption. Islam teaches us how to rediscover our fitra, and thus by practicing Islam one is always working towards a goal of attaining their original pure state.

this is openly stated in the koran to be the goal of the religion. The question I then ask of muslims is 'has this goal been achieved and if not why not?'. Without fitra everything else that they do is reduced to nonsense.

The problem is not with Christianity and Islam solely but with any rigidly codified system of conduct. It will miss the essence of fitra which is something very very subtle. It cannot be spoken about neither is it expressed through words or text.

Pastor AIO: Being Christian is not an intellectual exercise, but rather it is living life with power and authority through grace.

M_nwankwo: I understand him to say it that he who practices genuine love already have Christ for there can be no genuine love without Christ and no Christ without genuine love. Thus if Mahatma Gandi practiced true love, then he knows Christ even if he was not a "christian" in an earthly sense.

There is so much truth here that its so much that I can't even highlight everything!

Pastor AIO, Deep Sight, Krayola, M_nwankwo and others, thank you all.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: Is Stealing/lying Ever Justified? by Dulcet7(m): 2:25pm On Jan 12, 2011

What is a lie? I believe any human expression can only involve sin if it makes or allows evil to multiply. Whatever counters evil without generating a new form of evil should be justified. Stealing and murder are never justified according to my understanding - even if used in combating evil, it still involves evil. For self-defense, one is justified socially/morally but the spiritual repercussions will linger.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 1:31pm On Jan 12, 2011

@seyibrown:

What I understand there is that Jesus was referring to his identity as the epitome of love ~ to wit ~ that which he represented in bodily form. Nobody can get to the Father (nobody can successfully attain salvation without growing up in Love - the WAY or PATHWAY of love, and living the life of truth in love) I do not believe that he was making an exclusive claim for Christianity.

None of Jesus' teachings were limited to the set of religious doctrines and ideals that are known today as "Christianity".
John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 11:22pm On Jan 11, 2011

I think I might know where this discussion is headed.

JeSoul:
-So you believe that they are advantages and disadvantages to every religion. What are your thoughts on the bible's claim to a monopoly on the truth?

I do not know about these claims. Can you please provide references that show the Bible saying it has an exclusive monopoly on truth? I guess it states it is the Word of God but does it say it (the Bible) is the only one?

JeSoul:
About the purpose of Jesus' death, and about His great commission to spread His gospel of death and resurrection and convert as many as possible?

The Great Commission:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
There is nothing here about spreading knowledge of his death and resurrection but rather to teach them to observe the things he commanded (the things he taught us by his own exemplary lifestyle). This is the exact thing I already explained about the nature of the journey of salvation. Or maybe there is something I didn't understand about your question?

JeSoul:
if all religions have merit, why would Jesus command to convert to His "religion"? (I know you're not a christian but please indulge me )

Jesus never commanded anybody to convert to his religion but rather he taught us to live ~ in a way that pleases God and is in peace and love with men ~ and then commanded us to teach others too. The "religion" in all that Jesus taught was theism just like I advocate and likewise perceive - divine teachings about God, how he relates with us and how he expects us to relate with one another. A careful study of Jesus life can create a profuse spark of salvation in one who desires to live for God. As he himself said I am the way the Truth and the Life; I am the Door. He referred to his eternal identity ~ as the the epitome of love ~ as Sun of God ~ that identity is the final point for anyone on the journey of salvation.

JeSoul:
-Do you believe in the existence of a devil? the personifcation of evil? or do you think evil is simply the sin manifested in our wicked actions?

Definitely a personified form of evil exists ~ and it is sufficient to call him the devil (as i said previously, words forms and ideas can hardly convey true spiritual meaning but we can manage). Just like perfection of love flows from God towards whoever desires to be filled by it, perfection of wickedness flows from an evil one (who we can call the devil) towards whoever [b]desires [/b]to be refilled by it.

However I do not understand evil to be like the way many people see it. I see evil to be like friction. It is undesirable but NECESSARY because without friction there will be no motion. This is why even Jesus (Buddha too) had to be severely tempted by evil, and he experienced expressions of evil flowing towards him from outside-in, right from Herod's massacre straight to his own crucifixion. My views on evil may be controversial so I think I need to cap it there.

JeSoul:
-Do you think a teaching/tenet/belief/practice of a religion can itself be wrong? and not necessarily be based on how it is applied? If a belief teaches

I believe teaching/tenet/belief/practice may be referred to as doctrine and yes I concede it is possible ~ absolutely speaking ~ for a doctrine to be wrong. This is because doctrines are dynamic in nature ~ ever changing ~ and whoever is the pointman of change can manipulate the doctrine to their taste. At that state, the doctrine is not much more different from the heart of that pointman. When I first said doctrines are not right or wrong, I confess I wasn't considering it absolutely.

I believe religious doctrines are of three types:
[list]
[li]the exoteric (commonly known) doctrines on relating with God[/li]
[li]the exoteric doctrines on laws, principles and conduct among men[/li]
[li]the esoteric (hidden) doctrines[/li]
[/list]

In each category it is possible for a man who has been placed in a key position to manipulate the religious adherents into unknowingly satisfying esoteric (secret) doctrines that he believes in by making them engage in some exoteric practices that have been extrapolated - or else to advance some personal vendetta. So the masses move along like pawns in a war front.

JeSoul:
-Would you say the ultimate goal of ex. christianity is the same as islam? how so?

I believe the ultimate goal of mankind is to reunite with purpose of walking in love, whether its Christians or Muslims. I have not once read where Jesus condemned a religion or another. Rather he condemned wrong motives and intentions, wrong hearts and deceptive manoeuvres.

Computers › Re: Facebook Denies Shutdwon Rumours by Dulcet7(m): 7:44pm On Jan 11, 2011

Shut down for where? Plenty money ~borku~! grin

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 7:22pm On Jan 11, 2011

JeSoul:
Once you've had the time to address the couple questions above, I'd like to continue on the route Joagbaje started, on the "physical" man of Jesus. I'd like to understand any deficiencies or concern you may have with the literal interpretation of the biblical narrative of Jesus as a man on earth. Thanks!

If I can get away with a simple answer I will say ~ the literal interpretation does not obstruct the symbolic understanding of the narratives - being that essentially, wisdom does not discriminate between fiction and fact.

So I believe for anyone who seeks to know whether Jesus or Krishna or Buddha (the so-called three suns of God in the comparative study of religions because of their exemplary lives) ~ really physically existed or maybe the narratives are a collection of made-up stories by enlightened men about a man or set of men who lived among men in that role of epitomizing love; their real/physical existence does not reduce the efficacy of any of their relevances in symbolic identity ~ i.e. that which we are to emulate, and their teachings ~ i.e. that which they (collectively or individually) taught.

But I guess if you ask further, I will have to make really careful responses if I will stay sincere.

Let me know when you are ready

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 6:56pm On Jan 11, 2011

JeSoul:
. . . there is no right or wrong religion, there are right or wrong hearts.
^A very heavy statement.

Yes Ma'am. This is my persuasion and belief.

JeSoul:
-I'd like to go a little deeper and ask you specifically about the teachings or tenets or beliefs or practices of a religion. In your view, where do these fit in in the big picture?

I spoke about religions being akin to means of transportation in the journey of salvation. Each means of transportation has its own risks, merits and demerits but whatever the means you take - there is an experience in which you are [b]allowed [/b]to grow (in love towards salvation).

The teachings, tenets, beliefs and practices of each religion are what makes the religion what it is, the same way jet fuel cannot be fed to a horse. In a journey of salvation, imagine A chooses a train, B chooses a jet and C chooses a horse. The jet may be fastest, the train may be slow and the horse-rider may enjoy more scenery and freedom to explore; but if a heavy thunderstorm befalls them - the jet might crash because of visibility, the horse and its rider will be heavily drenched but the rusty old train will plod along safely till the storm clears. In other conditions, another means of transport may seem to be better but it goes to show: no means of transport is perfectly right or perfectly wrong.

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happens to them all. - Ecclesiastes 9:11
You may have noticed I love quoting the Bible. I find a lot of wisdom in it.

The teachings, tenets, beliefs and practices of each religion are unique to that religion - and they are an integral part of the religion. I will go further to say in my understanding, none of them are right or wrong either. It is their application [/b]by a human being that will tend towards either love (holiness) or wickedness (i.e. sin).

This is because the teachings, tenets, beliefs and practices of a religion are [size=13pt][b]AMPLIFIERS [/size]for that religion. They will simply [b]increase [/b]whatever is already in the man's heart to do within their walk of love or wickedness. In addition, these [b]amplifiers [/b]are often controlled by people in that religion who have chosen to use the common man in that religion as a pawn - if they are not able to discern for themselves. I will not list examples but this is glaring in today's experiences among many major religions ~ perversions of teachings and practices to deploy and finance personal ambitions and political outlooks. The common man is often ignorant of this.

-And as a side note/question, what is your take on the inherence of sinfulness in man? that we are born sinful.

Yes I believe we are born sinful and we walk towards salvation as we grow in love. Man is naturally selfish, greedy and wicked ~ even if he is not taught as a child ~ but sin is part of the plan - it is the starting point ~ and gradually towards salvation, the heart is emptied of all that wickedness and replaced with love.

-Furthermore, the bible teaches that our hearts are deceptive and it is possible for our consciences to become corrupt or be cut off entirely. For people in such predicaments, how can their "heart" lead them aright if it is wrong/corrupt?

This, I believe is true. Their hearts can never lead them aright but it is not an irreversible thing (which is why our duty and purpose is to help them in love).

Many people have lost their consciences and the discernments of their hearts. Such ones who have become corrupt are essentially walking in perpetual wickedness and their hearts cannot lead them aright. That will be like the dead candle I illustrated earlier ~ it will need to be lighted by a living flame on another candle.

This very point that you have pointed out is the secondary reason for the walk of salvation ~ you will be compelled to reach out to those walking in perpetual wickedness i.e. inside-out (i.e. they have wrong hearts hardened against conscience and it had colored their lives and actions) or else experiencing wickedness i.e. outside-in (these are they that are victims of an act of wickedness or a lack of love of another human: abandoned widows and orphans with no relative or good neighbour to cater for them; the poor, the hungry or socially disadvantaged; the robbed traveller on the way from Jerusalem to Jericho ~ saved by the Good Samaritan, etc)

I said and quote:

Salvation is not an event, it is a discovery, an experience that spans time. It is a journey that reunites man with purpose: [size=13pt]and this purpose is to jumpstart his fellow man on the road to their own salvation[/size]. The journey is a discovery of love - becoming a love filled individual, a true paragon of loving virtue.

The journey of salvation discovers love for you as you advance, and also compels you to jumpstart a fellow man on his own road to discovery, and to help others who are (ahead or behind you) in this journey of salvation ~ no matter their religion.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 6:24pm On Jan 11, 2011

JeSoul:
Lemme just say that I am thrilled with this discussion.

Dulcet I want to thank you for the time and heart that you've invested so far, as you can see it is already bearing some good fruit. I hope I have not bitten off more than I can chew though

I read this quote 3 times. I cannot tell you how much this blesses me at this particular point in my walk. It must have been the spirit that nugded me to reach out to you because this blesses me immensely. Thank you so much.

I do however have questions on the above, but I will get to them in the subsequent posts. . .

I am glad you liked the post, Jesoul. I was feeling a little exhausted after these posts (especially since I have a tendency to avoid the confrontations that are certain to emanate from such discussions as this) but this post of yours ~ knowing you are a Christian ~ makes me feel a little stronger grin

. Now let me try to answer the next post of yours.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 5:47pm On Jan 11, 2011

seyibrown:
Why is accepting this 'Christ' that is derived from Jesus Christ an assurance of salvation?

I never mentioned a second or an "other" Christ that is or is not derived from Jesus Christ.

If the work of salvation is only found in the redemption that is in the blood of Jesus Christ, where is it found in this other 'Christ' that is not Jesus Christ?

What is this other [/b]Christ you speak of? There is only one Christ - known to Christians as Jesus the Christ - Christ~ians - and I used "Christ" in quotes to show that [b]IF the true representation of the person that Joagbaje (a Christian) recognizes as Christ IS the quintessential epitome of love then TRULY there is no other way to salvation. I used "Christ" when replying Joagbaje because he is a Christian ~ that is the language [/b]he will understand. For a Yoruba traditional worshipper maybe I could say "Ori". And I will mean the exact same thing. Mere words always fail to convey divine truths.

The divine goes way beyond what can be expressed in words and forms so this is a case of many people observing the same truth and describing it in various ways using various languages. One does not have to be a Christ~ian to know [b]Christ in his essential nature as the quintessential epitome of love. This [Christ] is the way to salvation. In Christianity, the Christ was personified in the flesh as Jesus the Christ. Buddhists received this same truth as a personification of the Buddha (howbeit not called the Christ ~ the essence of the salvation was meted out through him in that religion). Islam does not have such a personification but that does not make Islam less of a religion than Buddhism or Christianity. The list goes on, but I'm saying in each religion there is a quintessential epitome of love - which is either a human being, a practice, a belief, or an understanding. When one aligns with this Truth ("Christ" - I usedthe word for you again, a Christian), then starts growing towards it in love - and their hearts are steadfast - their methods are what are marked by God and not the religious path they took to get there. Religion is only like a signpost to the final destination - which is Truth - becoming that epitome of love.

From your previous posts, Is a religion that kills people before they have the opportubnity to find Christ also 'Right' as you say no religion is wrong?

There is no religion that kills people. There are human beings that kill people. So the religion is not wrong. What is wrong are the human hearts that allow the religion to control them against their God-given conscience and turn into wickedness - which as I explained - is the ONLY form of sin or wrong.

I repeat: no religion is wrong. What is wrong is the heart of a person or people. Even if you find yourself in a religion (maybe born to follow it) - you can ALWAYS opt out of it - everyone was born with a choice. But if your heart is wrong you will stay there and wax further in wickedness.

Can the true person of Jesus Christ be found in any Religion that advocates inhumanity of man to other men, which is contrary of what Jesus Christ preached? [/b]

Please what do you mean by "the true person of Jesus Christ"? There is no religion that advocates inhumanity of man to other men. Rather there are wicked men and women everywhere who use various forms of religion to advance their own causes and in so doing they are inhuman to one another and they detract the paths of salvation.

Maybe we should start from: what did Christ (Jesus) really preach?
In one phrase I will say "Love God truly and let your true love for God also drive you to show true love to your fellow man".

Is the 'Christ' that is available through all other religions the same in 'principles' e.g love, holiness, forgiveness, repentance, after-life etc?

The "Christ" construct in other religions is the same - neglecting human wickedness which makes people advance their own causes alongside religion.
Love.

Holiness is an attribute of love. ~ When you love God and fellow man, you will walk blamelessly.
Forgiveness is an attribute of love. ~ When one really and truly loves, forgiveness is certain.
Repentance is an attribute of love. ~ Repentance itself is another name for the walk of salvation and an aspect of the growth process in love.
After-life is an attribute of love. ~ If God commands us to walk in love (I believe this is the only commandment) and we know that God is eternal, then if we walk in love until we die - whether we believe in the after-life or not, when we get to that life where God who is eternal dwells, we will defnitely have to "defend" (like a thesis like I said) our walk of salvation and our growth in love.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 5:46pm On Jan 11, 2011

@seyibrown:

To be candid, when I asked the question about the full import of salvation it was because I wanted to discuss the relatively unknown religious concept that there is more to salvation than just accepting a religion (by force or by faith) or by following one belief or religious ritual on a promise of salvation.

These are, however, my persuasions about salvation and you do not need to accept or believe them.

I do not believe that convincing others to depart from their understanding or religion is a part of the walk of salvation. It is only my duty to help my fellow man walk in love - so unless I know that a person is walking in wickedness inside-out, I have no duty to interfere in their own religion.

So, here too, I am not attempting to disrupt any Christian views about salvation. That which the Christians believe will save them, if they pursue it faithfully and let their faith work by love.

Even in Christianity's Galatians 5:6 this truth is expressed:- "rituals" and practices of religion are second-place to faith which is empowered by love.

Galatians 5:6
For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Faith needs to work by love, as it is everywhere, it also is in the Christian faith. If you have faith geared towards salvation and love is missing, I believe you may only be a religious fanatic (following a religion rather than God) and you may be only wasting your time. These are the people that others will see and say their religion is evil or wicked - No. No religion is wicked or evil. A religion is a part of a man's understanding about the life in which he finds himself - and thus a religion attempts to express the divine (which influences the seen).

A perception about the divine can not be evil or wicked - it is the expression of that understanding - flowing through a human heart and translating into a thought, words or deeds - that can be evil or wicked.

Similarly, no religion is right or wrong. When people receive a persuasion about a religion, they still have their innate conscience to weigh wicked acts and acts of love. But many times they allow themselves to be used as pawns of other religious people to commit wicked acts (like religious terrorists) or to ignore good deeds in a bid to pretend holiness (like the priest in the Good Samaritan story). It isn't the religion that is wrong (because there are still people in that same religion who manage to please God's heart) but rather it is the heart that committed the crime.

In this physical world we live in, only human beings can be right or wrong - and will answer for their thoughts, words and deeds eventually. Every other thing or concept follows the design or acceptance or allowance of the creator God.

Christianity Etc › Re: Questions? Comments? Complaints? Talk To The Moderators Here by Dulcet7(m): 12:44pm On Jan 11, 2011

Moderators are arbiters who only work with available evidence. If anybody insults another but the post is not reported, the moderator may not take action but when a poster is severally reported by others as a troublemaker then unfortunately the moderator will need to crack down on that one. The Yorubas say "Eni ti won ba mu ni ole" i.e. only the one who gets caught is deemed guilty: the unwieldy hand of justice. I guess maybe Mudley should also report posts that offend him rather than attacking the offenders in turn.

Deep Sight and Mudley I will like to take an exeat from this ongoing disceptation if you do not mind? Thanks.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 12:36pm On Jan 11, 2011

newmi:
@Dulcet7
I was impressed with your post l must comment it makes alot of "SENSE" logically.

Whichever way the spark starts, the salvation is incomplete until "Christ" is complete in you. Salvation is therefore only found in "Christ".
What is "Christ"

Thanks for reading my post. See here in bold italics about what I mean by Christ (I didn't mean Jesus Christ, but rather meant that which Jesus Christ is eternally identified as - an embodiment of love). Then the next 3 paragraphs give more context.

Dulcet7:
Do you refer to his manifestation as a human being or to his identity as the epitome of love and salvation among men - being the only one who saved himself and showed others the most excellent way?

If it is the latter then I agree with you because thats the same thing I have said above. To you as a Christian, Jesus physically manifested to reveal this nature among men. The Buddha and Krishna too are believed by others to have done same - howbeit with various natures of doctrines and various demonstrations of love.

But behind all the teachings is that exemplary life in each case. Putting aside details of human persons and focusing on the identity they stood for, let us for now call that identity the Christ.

After receiving the first spark of salvation, men grow up in love until "Christ" is formed in them (as Paul wrote), even if they dont call it Christ. We cant all speak the same language - some would call it enlightenment. Others would call it perfection or holiness. Others destiny or purpose.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 9:33am On Jan 11, 2011

Thanks Joagbaje. I might agree or disagree with you based on what you mean by salvation can only be found in Jesus.

Do you refer to his manifestation as a human being or to his identity as the epitome of love and salvation among men - being the only one who saved himself and showed others the most excellent way?

If it is the latter then I agree with you because thats the same thing I have said above. To you as a Christian, Jesus physically manifested to reveal this nature among men. The Buddha and Krishna too are believed by others to have done same - howbeit with various natures of doctrines and various demonstrations of love.

But behind all the teachings is that exemplary life in each case. Putting aside details of human persons and focusing on the identity they stood for, let us for now call that identity the Christ.

After receiving the first spark of salvation, men grow up in love until "Christ" is formed in them (as Paul wrote), even if they dont call it Christ. We cant all speak the same language - some would call it enlightenment. Others would call it perfection or holiness. Others destiny or purpose.

Whichever way the spark starts, the salvation is incomplete until "Christ" is complete in you. Salvation is therefore only found in "Christ".

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 8:33am On Jan 11, 2011

If you recall in school - if you studied or are studying in the sciences - when you write a paper there are "method marks" and there is the final "answer mark"? So in mathematics if you dubbed the answer its easy to know because your method is inconsistent? Also, you may get the wrong final answer [/b]but your [b]methods [/b]will still get you an A?

[b]I believe in religion there is no answer mark. There are only method marks - and these marks are evaluated by the one who set the "exams" - God the creator and original designer - and your salvation is being marked each day of your life - judgment day is every day - and just like how students defend their thesis at the end of their course before a board of professors - someday we will be ready to receive our "degrees" for everything in this life and we will all explain our choices and the reasons why we used whatever methods we used in our walk of salvation.

That's all for now, madam Jesoul. I hope it is sufficient?

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 8:32am On Jan 11, 2011

Salvation is progressing when the person gets more exempted from wickedness. This does not mean wickedness does not [b]flow [/b]from outside-in, but it doesnt [b]flow [/b]from inside-out. [b]Flow [/b]meaning a consistent and continuous pattern. Outside-in e.g. "bad things" happening in the world to "good people"; "Inside-out" e.g. thoughts, intentions and actions that are not in line with love. Your outside-in experience of wickedness is someone else's inside-out manifestation of wickedness. It is outside-in because it comes from the outside of your heart and attempts to harden your heart against love and become wicked like it.

God's concern is not in the outward actions of people but in their inner world, the impulses that lead to those actions. God's concern is the heart of a man and not his/her religion. It is the impulses coming from inside-out that comprise aspects of his salvation and that is what God wants to know about.

During salvation, wickedness in the heart is continuously replaced by love and there will always be traces of wickedness left but the love will cover it up unless the person deliberately decides to frustrate his own salvation by emphasizing the wickedness. Wickedness is like poison - just a little in a heart filled with love - if emphasized upon - can ruin the entire heart.

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 8:30am On Jan 11, 2011

Religion is like various means of transport to explore a land. Some people have horses, other have trains, planes, cars, others are strolling on foot, some are jogging. When you are travelling to a destination and the destination matters, then speed or transport method will matter. But when you need to explore, you can go slowly or speed thru - your means of transport does not matter - everyone has a chance to enjoy the exploration one way or the other. It is not how fast you get there - in fact there is no "there" to go to in the experience of salvation - it is the experience itself that counts - so this is why I said on another thread that there is no RIGHT religion and there is no WRONG religion. All we have are right hearts and wrong hearts. Compassionate hearts that predominantly love inside out and selfish hearts that are predominantly wicked inside out. Some religions create fanatics out of people and they start focusing on the religion rather than their salvation within [/i]the religion - which is the most paramount thing. One should never allow his or her views on religion to harm another person or distract or destroy their own walk of salvation.

People say - I was born into this religion and they have some wicked doctrines so I dont have a choice, I have to be like them - but this is not true! People are born into Nigeria every day and some of them manage to distinguish themselves worldwide that the world does not see them first as "one of those corrupt Nigerians" but rather as Nigerian citizens worthy of emulation. And if the person is not satsfied, he/she can always nationalize to another country. So you see, salvation is a re-orientation of the soul from focusing on the selfish desires to the loving inner man.

The journey called Salvation means an exemption. Exemption from what? From [i]wickedness. Wickedness is the only form of evil that exists. It manifests in various shades: greed, jealousy, hatred, envy, pride - all boil down to wickedness and the only cure to all of them is love - when applied to the person from inside-out till salvation begins in that person too.

Christianity Etc › Re: Questions? Comments? Complaints? Talk To The Moderators Here by Dulcet7(m): 6:28am On Jan 11, 2011

Hello Jesoul here is the salvation link https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-575273.0.html#msg7505010

Christianity Etc › Re: Assurance Of Salvation by Dulcet7(m): 12:32am On Jan 11, 2011

Dear madam Jesoul, here as promised and sorry its late

You already know some of my views on religion from other threads. As always, I state, I am a theist - I believe in God and for me there is no further embellishment by the title of any religious persuasion except my heart.

My views about the full import of salvation
Salvation is not an event, it is a discovery, an experience that spans time. It is a journey that reunites man with purpose: and this purpose is to jumpstart his fellow man on the road to their own salvation. The journey is a discovery of love - becoming a love filled individual, a true paragon of loving virtue.

Salvation begins with a spark of discovery - of love - then continues into an experience. The "love of God" is a catalyst that makes that experience move along faster from the moment that spark happens.

For some people, that spark is "confessing Jesus as their Lord and Saviour" as Christians do (since it makes them - SOME of them - reflect on true love as a gift from God - and makes them want to apply it to fellow man) but that spark is not enough (even Jesus never mentioned confessing trust in his sacrifice as the final requirement for salvation - besides saying the prerequisite that he would be lifted up like Moses' snake for people's sins - please correct me if I am wrong - he actually said its not all who call him Lord that are his own people) which is why the same Christians are yet told to work out their salvation with fear and trembling.

A Muslim might receive such an enlightenment spark while doing one of his 5 required pillars of faith and suddenly finding out the secret truth that may escape many other Muslims - those pillars are symbolic - and stumbling upon this symbolism he finds a spark of salvation that leads him on a brand new journey - still in Islam - but now on the way to assured salvation.

For an Eastern mystic, it might be a moment of meditation which enlightens them about a duty of love to fellow man.

For others, it might be a neighbor's kind gesture - clothes or food when you were in need - the giver was undergoing salvation and you were in their path to help them get there - it is like using a candle to light another candle - both now have the light but the first one didnt lose anything. Whatever the spark was, from whatever religion, grow the spark and experience the journey of salvation.

Christianity Etc › Re: Abortion In Nigeria: Legality, Morality And The Fear Of God (theists, Deists) by Dulcet7(m): 8:28pm On Jan 10, 2011

"In accordance with my conception of life, I have chosen not to bring children into the world. A coin is examined, and only after careful deliberation, given to a beggar, whereas a child is flung out into the cosmic brutality without hesitation." - Zapffe

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes Again! A Detailed Debate With New Arguments Shedding A Different Light. by Dulcet7(m): 8:20pm On Jan 10, 2011

toba:
What about malachi 3?

Oops my bad. I forgot Malachi

Christianity Etc › Re: Tithes Again! A Detailed Debate With New Arguments Shedding A Different Light. by Dulcet7(m): 7:08pm On Jan 10, 2011

I think all the support for tithing is in Leveticus and Deuteronomy. A number of reputable theologians (some claim to be Christian) believe Leveticus and Deuteronomy are likely forgeries inserted into the Old Testament by the ancient Jews to foster internal political power through religious influence.

These same theologians believe Moses wrote most of Genesis and part of Exodus and may have written some parts of Numbers too but didn't write those 2 books before and after Numbers.

However I think tithing is part of an exclusive belief system by Christians. Non-Christians are not insiders so they probably only have a right to observe silently - therefore - I probably should not be on this thread.

Christianity Etc › Re: Questions? Comments? Complaints? Talk To The Moderators Here by Dulcet7(m): 6:20pm On Jan 10, 2011

JeSoul:
Dulcet, you're more than welcome.

On a different subject - (and sorry if I'm 'stalking' you lol), can you please input your opinion on "salvation" on Joagbaje's "assurance" thread? Thanks.

No problems ma. Later today I will do just that.

Christianity Etc › Re: Questions? Comments? Complaints? Talk To The Moderators Here by Dulcet7(m): 6:17pm On Jan 10, 2011

Deep Sight I think I understand your view. But I took an objective glance at the OPs and I beg to disagree with you that Mudley wasn't being intolerant and deliberately producing incendiary posts (as Jesoul said) though they are his opinions. I feel in his heart he knew what the reaction would be by desecrating that which others will deem holy and sacred.

the judeo-christian god is an epic troll. if you grew up catholic, protestant or at all christian, then most of these iterations of this meme will hit home hard. these are all questions we've asked ourselves, our pastors and our parents that can be answered with the fact that the judeo-christian god, as a character, is a mean, troll-like, hypocritical butt-face. enjoy the best of the "advice god" meme, just in time for the holiday season

Meanwhile the Mudley Santa God thread is way better because the OP may be taken as a witty joke (even by some Christians, and ignored by the ones that can get offended) until Insequor came to stir the waters and all the trouble began.

For your own thread "Yahweh again - deut 7" I didnt go beyond page 1 but all I see is this and it was not incendiary

So as not to derail the other thread from discussing its specific issue - to wit - the deliberate disemination of falsehood by Yahweh, I am interested in looking also at some of the other interesting attributes of this deity.

A key one is extreme brutality.

Genocide, and brutal injunctions to stoning to death in odd circumstances.

The guy is absolutely notorious.

and so on. These posts you made are simple perceptions of yourself about what you clearly read in the Bible and also the Christians have the evidence that the verses said what you allege though they may vary in their own interpretations/perceptions of the same verse. This was a very objective post to me, even if it made some Christians upset.

Mazaje's lying angels of Yahweh thread is very similar and there we find you again

. He quoted 2 Chr 18:18-22 and said

What's up with yahweh and his angels?. . . .Why are they lying and deceiving people? Or is this part of the lying justice of yahweh.

1. The passage actually says the angel lied and deceived so there is nothing wrong here.
2. Mentioning "lying justice of yahweh" may have been a trigger for trouble but mazaje seems to be humorous in his method and I dont see him insulting the Christians at any time (maybe I need to go beyond page 1)

Mazaje said further

I can not believe the mental gymnastic involved here to explain this absurdity away. . .Make poo up and pretend that others are getting it wrongly is the name of the game. . . .

and

Fear, fear, fear. . .Aren't you guys tired of all the meaningless and ridiculous fear card already?. . . . .What the heck is blasphemy? Blasphemy was invented to scare people away from teachings or doctrines that can not stand on their own. . . .

Lets be honest: this appears to be polite conversation from Mazaje in which he states his persuasions against some beliefs held by others.

The procedures used in those two threads are an attack on the science and art (contents and concepts) of the empire (the beliefs) and not the people themselves. Please note that it is different from how mudley started out by saying God is an epic troll (attacking the empire) and then cussing that God, calling him names - maybe it was his opinion I guess - but it appears intolerant anyway. An atheist should not believe it is his duty to insult a God someone else believes in order to make them levy insults in return. Neither should a Muslim to a Christian or someone from any other belief system.

I will thus say it is clear to me that the threads are not similar: yours and mazaje's may have provoked responses but since you laid no insults, you were only passing across your disagreements maturedly. mukina2/jesoul - whoever locked the errant thread - knew what they were doing.

But maybe there is something I am missing because whoever claims to see all sides of a matter is only lying.

Whichever way always remember that
(1) the duty of any arbiter (e.g. a moderator) is a difficult one whenever people are involved and motives are not clearly defined. This is like a court that sometimes discharges and acquits a terrible criminal or convicts an innocent man just because there is a lack of evidence or because the lawyer was a brilliant arguer or a terrible one.
- and -
(2) all moderators are human like you too.

Christianity Etc › Re: Questions? Comments? Complaints? Talk To The Moderators Here by Dulcet7(m): 5:27pm On Jan 10, 2011

Deep Sight how are u? I think mukina2 already answered you: the offence was people insulting themselves and not people insulting a god/God/set of gods - take a pick - as was the case in the 2 links u postd.

Jesoul thanks ma. Im glad my post made some sense to you.

Christianity Etc › Re: Questions? Comments? Complaints? Talk To The Moderators Here by Dulcet7(m): 3:11pm On Jan 10, 2011

I am not taking sides here but toba and deep sights are taking this too far in both directions.

I will say the two moderators are unbiased -
maybe the accumulated complaints about mudley's posts have conditioned jesoul's perceptions about him so she always expects him to be a troublemaker.
maybe manmustwac finds the mudley posts funny because he is an atheist, forgetting that atheism is a lack of belief in / denial of theism and not a passport to insult theism.
Besides, mukina2 sounds muslim to me (am I wrong?) so I don't think she is "taking sides with the christians".

It is true that everybody has freedom of speech but see the following statements about a certain god. So as not to cause offence I will use a relatively unknown one: Cthulhu, "fictitious" cosmic god of the non-human deep ones called the Mi-go

Watch the steady progression of intolerance:
Cthulhu is a joke and cannot possibly exist. I firmly believe it is pure stupidity to believe in Cthulhu.
Cthulhu is fugly and looks like the squiggly spider I squashed at my bedside last night.
I defecate on Cthulhu's face. Let the so-called god stand up to me and defend itself.
Whoever thinks Cthulhu exists is silly and very ignorant.
Mi-go and other worshippers of Cthulhu are insane imbec1les and should have their heads checked for trusting in Cthulhu.

On five different levels we can see that the opinions have shifted from ridicule (basically acceptable although intolerable) to a vicious attack on the basis of another person's belief system and then finally the war is brought right down to the person's homefront - a personality attack.

I am not an atheist, I am a theist - simply so - without any more embellishment of religion - Christianity or whatever.
However I believe my arguments ought to attack the ideas I am set to disprove, and not the [i]people [/i]who believe in them.

I noticed that Mudley rarely makes posts without ridiculing the [b]personality [/b]of the person who believes what he is attacking, and the cartoons are generally offensive and intolerant (maybe I am wrong). But either way, the Christians are very wrong to attack him right back since there is a button to report to moderators.

The foundation of empire is art and science. Remove them or degrade them, and the empire is no more.
Empire follows art and not vice versa as Englishmen suppose. - William Blake

Voltaire said "A long dispute means that both parties are wrong".
This means if you have enough ammunition to destroy the art and science in an empire, you can leave without touching / attacking the empire and it will crumble by itself.

For me, I don't believe in militant persuasions because I believe God does not call for militancy of any kind - rather God expects us to share wisdom and knowledge whenever we have the chance. But if anyone disagrees and must be militant in their religious persuasion, always remember that "Empire follows art" and "A long dispute means that both parties are wrong".

Attack the art and science behind the religious perceptions you think are wrong,
and the empire of the religion will dissolve if it is not consistent.
Attack / ridicule / mock / curse the empire (the people IS the empire)
and you will achieve nothing. It will wax stronger and you may be the one to crumble.
Attacking the people will [b]never [/b]do you any good.

We should try to learn to be religiously tolerant of other people's views.

Christianity Etc › Re: A History Of God. by Dulcet7(m): 10:55pm On Jan 09, 2011

In addition, research indicates that the so-called Israelites in Egypt were actually paid Egyptian workers who ganged up under Moses to try to secede (like the Biafra story) under the grounds that they wanted to worship only one God. When it didnt work, they had to leave Egypt after a war in which Moses is believed to have used a lot of illusion & magic (the 10 plagues). The story of Moses' discovery in the bulrushes and adoption by Pharaoh's daughter is very likely an afterthought to spice up the story and align it with another ancient Sumerian myth, presenting him as a saviour etc.

Having seen this video, now i really need to open my thread to talk about God (I am a theist with no further religious embellishment). Soon as i have some time.

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