₦airaland Forum

DoctorAlien:
My Rev. M Muller? Is he no longer representing the catholic church?

YOU ARE USING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO DODGE THE QUESTION AT HAND... CAN THE DEAD SPEAK OR HEAR??

Can the dead speak?? yes they can according to the bible...

Isaiah 14:9 Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come,
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
10 All of them WILL SPEAK
and say to you:
‘You too have become as weak as we!
You have become like us!’

DoctorAlien:
My Rev. M Muller? Is he no longer representing the catholic church?

If he says Catholic doctrine is independent of scripture... then he doesn't represent the Catholic church.. I don't know where you culled that quote from.. but if he said that then he is misrepresenting the Church..

YOU ARE USING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO DODGE THE QUESTION AT HAND... CAN THE DEAD SPEAK OR HEAR??

DoctorAlien:
I know you're shocked at the real attitude of your church towards the Bible as it is clearly set forth in the article.

Waiting for your refutations.

Shocked indeed!! I have seen most of those arguments... interesting approach though

DoctorAlien:
Rev. M Muller says that the doctrines of your church are independent of the Holy Scriptures, and I believe you agree with him. How then can you claim to have a biblical basis for the consciousness of the dead, when, as a doctrine of the Catholic church, it is independent of the Holy Scriptures, according to Rev. M Muller?

1. Rev Muller is not the Authority.. The Bible is..

2. Your Rev Muller is wrong.. All Catholic doctrine s are either implicitly or explicitly found in scripture..

3. According to the Bible.. the dead are conscious...

4. It is not just a catholic doctrine.. Almost all Christians believe it.

5. Don't use the Catholic church to hide.. your soul sleep heresy is rightly condemned by non and anti catholic denominations also..

just scanned through.. as time permits all of those will be refuted one after the other.. it's very wordy.. I have to cross check the references but rest assured.. The Church holds the bible in high esteem as the written word of God.. but she doesn't believe that only the bible is needed... She believes in the teaching authority of Church also... and Oral Apostolic traditions...

DoctorAlien:
(Taps him) Wake up bro :-D You're in a whole new thread. So, face the truth contained in the article and tell us what you have to say about "Catholicism's shocking attitude towards the Bible".

Yeah.. jus saw it.. going through it..

DoctorAlien:
Please click on the link below to see an excellent, impartial examination of the claims of the catholic church concerning the Bible.

www.bible.ca/cath-bible-attitude-towards.htm

Cc: Ubenedictus, easymancfc, analice107

Like I said earlier.. thats not the topic of the thread.. face that.. you can open a separate thread for that if you want.. one issue at a time... Besides the Catholic church is not on trial here.. Adventist Soul sleep belief is..... Sorry .. wrong thread

Splinz:
As usual, a warp presentation.

Apparently, you never get it and I wonder when? If you were diligent enough or even remotely knowledgeable about the Scriptures, you would have known that it is not about the NUMBER--in your twisted attempt here, of those who believed these things, either, for even the demons believes (James 2:19). Does it mean the demons too are saved?



Sorry, I don't think I'm ready for your comic relief.

We are not talking about being saved here... we are talking about what is true... The demons believe it because it is true...

Besides.. I don't need to believe in your soul sleep to be saved... The essentials are belief in Christ, repentance, baptism and perseverance.. Whether the dead are conscious.. which they are is not a criteria for salvation..

Can the dead speak or hear? In Luke 16 Jesus tells us what happened to the dead in a parable, when the rich man and Lazarus died… and in his parable, they are:
1. Conscious
2. They can speak and hear
3. They are definitely not asleep
Now Adventists and others who support soul sleep will say that this is just a parable that the words are symbolic… that may be true.. but that doesn’t mean the elements there mentioned or the story itself is not true.. Jesus used truths that the Jews are familiar with to teach them in parables
Lets look at some parables of Jesus..
1. 10 virgins (wise and foolish)… in jewish marriages as with other customs… virgins wait with the bride for the arrival of the groom…
2. Lost sheep, prodigal son… lost sheep and prodigal son are real life issues.. not just stuff of parables or symbolic things..
3. The talents…. There are real masters and reals servants and situations like that do happen. Faithful and unfaithful servants really exist
4. Yeast that leavens….. yeast actually leavens bread and that is not only true in parables
5. the Wise servant… the servant, the debtors, the master are taken from real life characters..
6. Wheat and the tares… farms are real, enemies are real… weeds among plants till harvest are real..
JESUS ALWAYS USES TRUTH IN ALL HIS PARABLES, SO THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS BEING CONSCIOUS MUST BE TRUTH BECAUSE JESUS DOESN’T LIE… …

DoctorAlien:
easymancfc, how can anyone claim that the catholic church believes the Bible in the light of these quotes?

"The Pope is of great authority and power that he can modify, explain, or interpret even divine laws... The Pope can modify divine law, since his power is not of man, but of God, and he acts as vicegerent of God upon earth." (Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, "Papa", art. 2, translated)

"The authority of the Church could therefore not be bound to the authority of the Scriptures, because the church had changed the Sabbath into Sunday, not by command of Christ, but by it's own authority." (Canon and Tradition. page 263)

"The doctrines of the Catholic Church are entirely independent of Holy Scripture." (Familiar Explanation of Catholic Doctrine. Rev. M Muller, page 151)

This is not about the Catholic Church... its about if the dead can hear or not... So let's answer the question on ground...

You can open a thread for that later.. and it will be addressed..

Splinz:
More correctly put: "90% of CHURCHIANITY don't believe it".

Of course, right. I mean, not that you guys believe the Bible anyway, as yours has always been: "...teaching for doctrines the commandments of MEN (Mark 7:7). Just mere silly fabrications that stands no Bible scrutiny. But you see, the number on your side doesn't matter at all. What matters is that the word of God is sure, and His true believers believes and hear them.

Or have you not heard that the way of salvation is not found by many but a tiny few? (Matthew 7:14). Go ahead, claim even 99%. Again I tell you: IT MATTERS NOT AT ALL.

99 % of Christians believe Jesus is God.. believe he came to die for our sins... So because many believe it.. it is wrong according to your quoting of mat 7:14...

LOL... we don't believe the bible? I leave you to your ignorance

DoctorAlien:
You can try to evade the truth all you want but surely others will come in contact with it, and will by it be delivered from the bondage and befuddlement of falsehood.

So because I don't have time to go through your lengthy article point by point I am evading truth
LOL...

you can believe that if it makes you feel better...

Like I said, I will gladly point you to articles all you have to do is ask...

DoctorAlien:
Why don't you post your refutations to the points made in the article which are 100% backed with Scripture?

Actually, majority has been wrong 99% of the time, especially in matters concerning religion.

Its tedious... time is a factor I don't have in excess.. But rest assured.. I know all your arguments..

Like I said.. I will point you to articles... am sure you didn't write the article.. So I don't have to refute your article point by point.. I don't have the time right now

DoctorAlien:
You refuted verses from the Bible? That's wonderful. Why don't you post your "refutations" to all the points made in the article for all to see?

Majority has been wrong most of the time. That a large number of people believes it does not make it correct.

I didn't refute the Bible.. I refuted your interpretations and presentation of it as "proof" for your beliefs... I don't have to.. I can point you to Many Christian sites that have...

You're right.. majority can be wrong... but the fact remains that most times the minority are mostly wrong... 99% of the time.. In the case.. the minority is rightly wrong...

DoctorAlien:
Click on the link below to find 100% biblical answers to this and many more like important questions about life, soul, death and the spirit of the dead.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/48/t/spirits-of-the-dead

Cc: Ubenedictus, easymancfc

I have seen all your adventist quotes from the job and psalm etc to support your views and I have refuted them many times so thanks but no thanks... p.s. only Adventist and Jehovah's witnesses and a handful of others believe that... 90% of Christians don't believe in that..

DoctorAlien:
The blood crying out for justice is figurative, because the blood wasn't really crying. Revelations is filled with symbols. I know it's hard to grasp. But never think the Jews misunderstood Jesus' parable like you do.

Indeed bro... the blood was symbolic... Again I agree with you... Revelation is symbolic...
but the point is.. Whether blood or Souls the point is the entity of the person was conscious... asking God for vengeance is a conscious activity whether we interprete the surrounding as symbolic or not...

You are the one who misunderstands Jesus... even before the time of Jesus Jews have believed in Abraham's bossom as the abode for the righteous dead and Hades or Gehenna as the abode for the wicked just as Jesus explained in the parable... and that the dead there are conscious.. just like Jesus said they were... and I can prove it with scripture and history... So no I didn't misunderstand the parable... I understand it the way Jesus and the Jews did..

DoctorAlien:
Moses and Elijah are in Heaven. That is too plain in the Bible to be mistaken.

"Righteous Abel" is still in the grave, waiting for the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The Bible never records the resurrection of Abel. It only says of Abel that his blood cried out from the ground to GOD. GOD meant by that that the crime committed against Abel demands justice. This is also what is meant when Revelations says that souls under the altar were demanding judgment against men on earth. Of course you don't believe that righteous people pray for GOD to destroy sinners. They instead, like Jesus and Stephen, pray for GOD to forgive them.

The story of the Rich man and Lazarus is a PARABLE! Browse the meaning of the word "PARABLE". All the characters in the PARABLE ARE SYMBOLIC. Even "Abraham's bosom" symbolizes something. The PARABLE is not to be taken literally.

Thank You.. So at least you agree that some people are not in the grave...

Abel was not said to be resurrected just like Moses was not said to be resurrected but you agree he is in heaven..... So resurrection argument does not follow

You said his blood cried out for Justice... meaning he was not unconscious....

the Martyrs where souls under God's temple IN HEAVEN not blood from THE GRAVE... What do they both have in common... CONSCIOUSNESS...

Some characters in parables are meant to be symbolic not all...the Point Is... Are they Truth or false... If they are truth then the dead are conscious.. If they are false then Jesus is lying in a Parable... or using falsehood to teach...

Lastly all the Jews as did Jesus believe in Abraham's bossom and Hades and the consciousness of the dead... that s why the parable made sense to them...

BESIDES THERE ARE MORE EXAMPLES OF SAINTS NOT IN THE GRAVE..

DoctorAlien:
No, Mary is in the grave right now, waiting to be resurrected when Christ returns. 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

Just like Moses, or Elijah or Abel or Lazarus or the Rich man, or the martyrs etc...

OLAADEGBU:
Since angels are also among the cloud of witnesses, do you pray to them too?



Don't you believe the Vatican that says that you should see Mary as your co-redemptrix, co-mediatrix and advocate?



No wonder you see apparitions of the Mary you pray to.



Jesus did not command that we should break the second commandment which says that you should not make yourself any graven image. He said we should pray to the Father in His own name. Anything more than that is stretching the truth.

1. Don't change the subject... I never told you angels are part of the cloud of witnesses.. Hebrew 11 doesn't mention any angels... but if you want to know.. angels also have an intercessory function.. see rev 8 and mat 18..

2. Again i see you are trying to bring up another issue... focus on one at a time...I suggest you find out what co -redemptrix etc in the Catholic teaching mean...

3. Don't try to divert from the issue Catholics pray to the Father through Jesus... We also obey the other commands to pray for one another.. and in that vein we ask Christians in heaven to pray for us.. And since you have not been able to prove that death separates them from The Body of Christ and hence us.. you have no done anything...

OLAADEGBU:
There are no clear, definite New Testament quotations from the Apocrypha by Jesus or the apostles. If there are then prove me wrong.



Why would Jesus quote satan?



Those are your own words not mine.



Where in the apocrypha does it say "Thus saith the Lord"?

1. I have showed you one instance already but you cleverly avoided it..

2. Mistake.. You said scripture not Jesus. but just to correct that conception.. Scripture doesn't directly quote Satan but it gives a narrative where Satan was involved.. The narrative or what the devil says in the narrative is indeed inspired... because Mathew or Mark or Luke John etc where not there for example when the devil tempted Jesus.. yet they quoted him in their narrative... Therefore the "devil's quote" in the narrative is inspired by God as is all other scripture for it to be in scripture..

"Does the fact that the Scriptures quoted satan mean that satan is saying the truth? The fact that Paul alluded to the poets in athens doesn't mean that all the works of the poets istrue it just means that the part they quoted is true".

3. You were the one who said that Paul quoted the poets and that doesnt make them inspired... I only exposed you by proving that Paul acknowledges that he quotes the poet not scripture in that place...

4. There are many other books that don't contain thus say the Lord, but you acknowledge them as scripture... where does it say that a book must contain "Thus says the Lord" for it to be inspired...

I especially like "some of the historical references"... But just to emphasize the Catholic Church doesn't put tithing as a Law anymore.. That injunction at the Council of Trent no longer applies...
People give as they see fit...

OLAADEGBU:
Does the fact that the Scriptures quoted satan mean that satan is saying the truth? The fact that Paul alluded to the poets in athens doesn't mean that all the works of the poets is true it just means that the part they quoted is true.



Jesus did not have to say thus says the Lord because He himself is the Lord and that's why you will hear Him say words like "Verily, verily I say to you" Whatever Jesus says and quotes is authoritative and inspired of God.

Jesus is truth personified so he would not refer to anything false... Jesus alluded to Many things in the deuterocanonica.. He didn't have to say it is written or verily verily unless he was trying to emphasize something... He made allusions to Jonah and Noah, Sidon, tyre etc without saying making such emphasis
1. Am curious Where does Jesus quote Satan?

2. Paul when he quotes the poet actually says that he quotes the poet..

but the allusions to the deuterocanonica are so plain and obvious that the Jews must be familiar with them...

You're right.. whatever Jesus says is authoritative.. Even when he alludes to the deuterocanonica...

OLAADEGBU:
If it is not written that in Scripture that we should pray to God through the dead in Christ then we should not go beyond what is written.



When Jesus said we are to seek Him in (John 14:14; Matthew 11:28) and that He alone was a way to the Father (John 14:6) why are you seeking and praying to Mary as a way to the Father?



You are opening up yourselves to demonic influence when you go outside what God has commanded in Scriptures.



Jesus could communicate with the dead because He is God but He commands us to communicate with the Father in His (Jesus') name. Are you saying Jesus is not enough? Is God the Trinity not enough to hear your prayers? Let your faith be in Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith otherwise you will be exposing yourself to demonic influence as king Saul did.

1. My dear friend, Argument from silence doesn't work here...
secondly the bible tells us to ask for one another's intercession, it doesn't specify that living should pray for the living only... In fact it says that we all as members of the body of Christ need each other (1 cor 12:21) and that death doesn't separate us from Christ meaning we can't be separated from his body either (Romans 8:38)...

Besides that the Bible expressly tells us that we have come to "the dead in Christ" so how can we be cut off from them if we have "come to them" just like God and Jesus..

Hebrews 12: 22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,23 and to the assembly of the FIRST-BORN who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE perfect, 24 and to Jesus,

So have all of them..

2. I agree with all those verses you have mentioned...I don't seek Mary as a way to the Father... Jesus is as you rightly said.. Mary is an able intercessor and I do well to ask for her intercession as well as the saints... living and dead..
Just as your Pastor praying for you doesn't make your pastor a way to the father instead of Jesus... so too does Mary praying for me doest make her same..

3. No am not.. there's no divination involved.. Necromancy involves reanimation.. am happy you mentioned Saul... Saul went to a medium... Who divined a Spirit who Saul spoke to and got a reply from... They had a two way communication... Go and Read 1 Sam 28 and see what God necromancy is and what God condemned... That is what God condemned not asking members of the body of Christ for their prayers..
no demonic influence where no reanimation or divination is involved

4. Jesus was both Man and God... and Jesus as Man would not break his own commandment.. Much less in front of his disciples... the Bible records that Jesus obeyed the Law... And that we should imitate him...
Amen... He commands us to do that... But he also commands us to communicate with the Father (in his name) for one another and the bible tells us to ask for others to pray for us and for us to pray for one another because it is pleasing to God (1 tim 2:4).... Am not saying God (Trinity) is not enough to answer prayers... You are the one saying that... What I am saying is that asking the saints who are members of the body of Christ to pray to God (Trinity) for me in no way shape or form takes away from Jesus because
a. They are members of his body and he is their head...
b. Since he is their head all prayers ultimately go through him to the Father..
c. Jesus is God also so if they pray to God then they are Also praying through Jesus

SO THERE'S NO DEMONIC INFLUENCE BECAUSE THERE NOTHING INVOLVING DEMONS.. JUST MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST IN HEAVEN PRAYING FOR THOSE ON EARTH...

OLAADEGBU:
There's no point asking questions that has been addressed in the OP's link. Here is another excerpt that answers your question:

1.If they are "false writings" then why are they quoted or alluded to at all by the apostles of Jesus if they were not considered to be true.... and why would they be recorded in scripture as fact if they were not true since the bible contains truths only....

2. If the only thing that qualifies a statement as authoritative then Jesus not saying "thus says the Lord" or "scriptures says" would mean Jesus' statement in places involving Old testament characters would also not be authoritative quotes...

OLAADEGBU:
The difference here is that the dead cannot interceed on behalf of the living.



You might as well say that your prayers are directed to God through Mary.



God will not share His glory with any man, woman or demon.



Since you are both communicating or contacting the dead there is no difference.

1. Where does it say that the dead in Christ cannot intercede for the Living...

2. Jesus is God so ultimately it is to God (Jesus is God) through Mary... just like It is To God ,(Jesus is God) through any other Christian who's intercession we ask for...

3. Amen to that... Thats why I said a demon would be working for God's glory...

4. No it's not... Just draw false conclusion... There is a mountain of difference . one involves going to necromancers who conjure up dead people the other does not...
this is what the dictionary says

Divination involving the dead or death.
Loosely, any sorcery or witchcraft, especially involving death or the dead, particularly sorcery involving raising or reanimating the dead.

Besides Luke 9 at the Mountain of transfiguration shows a communication between the living and the dead... So at least biblically some contact is permitted...

OLAADEGBU:
When you are praying to Mary don't you expect her to answer your prayers or is it a one way communication? How do you know that it is not influenced by demonic powers?

I don't expect her to "answer" my prayers.. I expect my prayers to be answered by God through her intercession.. Just like I expect the answer to be from God when I ask for you or any other Christian to intercede for me.
There's no demonic interference because by prayers are directed to God in Jesus name... Even if you claim there may be demonic interference... All the glory goes to God when the prayer is answered so the demon will be working for God...

NECROMANCY IS A TWO WAY COMMUNICATION THAT REQUIRES REANIMATION OF THE DEAD..

IF YOU HAVE SEEN WHERE CATHOLICS RAISE UP THE DEAD TO ASK QUESTIONS PLEASE LET ME KNOW...

OLAADEGBU:
It's either you provide the so called verses where either Jesus or His apostles quoted from the apocrypha or you hold your peace.

Before we get to that... Just to pick your brain a little.. From which of the Old testament book did Jude quote this from....

Jude 1:9 But when the archangel Michael, contending with the devil, disputed about the body of Moses, he did not presume to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you.”

OLAADEGBU:
They all speak to the dead so what's the difference?

Necromancy is a two way communication that involves waking up the dead using demonic powers.. There's a world of difference...

OLAADEGBU:
There should be no contact between the dead and the living. At death one either goes to heaven or hell. God forbids necromancy and divination. When you pray to the dead you are opening up yourselves to the demonic world.

What is necromancy?
raising up the dead to get information from them.

Divination is looking for fortune telling of future events...

All of which is not what asking for prayers from heavenly members of the body of Christ and which the Catholic Church condemns

OLAADEGBU:
The more reason you should read the link at the OP. Nevertheless, here is an excerpt that covers your objections:





You are welcome to quote those verses here if you have them.

With all due respect... You and the O.P. don't know what explicitly means...

Like I said earlier... Jesus was referring in the context of Luke 11:51 about Killing of prophets and the deuterocanons don't mention new prophets...

OLAADEGBU:
Calm down! I'll give you only one verse that will answer all your questions, and that comes from the mouth of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"From the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say to you, It shall be required of this generation" (Luke 11:51).

Here the Lord Jesus started from the first martyr in the book of Genesis to the last Martyr in the last book of the OT. Jesus scanned through all the books in the OT and that did not include the apocrypha even though it had been written by this time.

Irrevelant to the argument for so many reasons..
1. that is not a quote from Jesus in reference to any old testament scriptures...

2. The Apocryphal books don't mention any new prophet that was not recorded in the old testament...

3. The context of Luke 11:51 doesn't make reference to Any passage in Particular... Jesus was merely making a statement on how Israel has killed prophets sent to them....

So either you provide a direct quote or you don't have a point...

and P.S THERE ARE QUOTES FROM JESUS AND THE APOSTLES THAT ARE VERBATUM QUOTES OR VERY SIMILAR WRITINGS FROM THE APOCRYPHA..

[quote author=OLAADEGBU post=59378406]This is what Jesus would have said to you:

"Jesus answered and said to them, You do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God" (Matthew 22:29).

When Jesus said the Law and the prophets you should know what that means. Let me break it down for you. The Jewish Pentateuch consist of what we Christians would call the first 5 books of Moses which is they also call the "five rolls," I hope you know what they are.

The Prophets consisted of the Former Prophets and the Latter Prophets. The Former Prophets consisted of the books of Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel and Kings respectively. The Latter Prophets are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentation and the 12 smaller prophetic books. The Writings contain the remaining books.



Where the error of the ungodly lies is in their ignorance of the Holy Scriptures as Jesus said in the verse I quoted above, which is due to a darkened understanding of the power of God. [/quote
Clap for yourself... So you pick Judges and ran away with it...

What happened to Songs of Solomon, It is still neither Law nor prophet.. by your own definition The Law and the Prophets is the all and end all of old testament cannon.. if I am to go by that then the "writing" as you said would not be there since Jesus didn't mention it in that verse...