₦airaland Forum

felixomor:
So when you can pray to the God the Father,
Instead you use that time to call on other spirits to interceed for you to the father?

Sounds like intercomm.

By the way:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The scripture tells us the only acceptable "intercomm"

If only you can explain that scripture.

Amen.. Jesus is the way.. to be saved, because he alone died to forgive our sins, He is the truth, because he is God's word made flesh and God doesn't lie, and he is the life because it is in him that we have eternal life..
BUT ALL OF THESE DOESNT MEAN WE CANT ASK MEMBERS OF HIS BODY WITH HIM IN HEAVEN TO PRAY TO HIM FOR US... JUST LIKE WE ASK MEMBERS OF THAT SAME BODY ON EARTH TO PRAY FOR US..

felixomor:
Scripture tells you the location of "saints"
Wow?
Marvellous.

I prefer you would have just stuck to the "revelationaspect" . Instead of trying to squeeze scripture as excuse into it by force.

Scripture does,

We know from scripture that moses and elijah are in heaven, we know from scripture that the apostles save judas would be in heaven. we know from scripture that paul would be in heaven etc....

cc doctoralien..
here's what other christians think of your soul sleep doctrine

http://www.letusreason.org/doct15.htm

this is a long read but it addresses all of the scriptures and arguments provided by the o.p. and more..

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/12/30/is-soul-sleep-biblical-what-does-the-bible-say/

here's a favourite of many anti catholic nairalanders
https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C4322479395
http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-is-the-doctrine-of-soul-sleep-is-it-biblical/

https://carm.org/soul-sleep?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C8399780948
i can go on and on..

DoctorAlien:
Praying to dead "saints" is not biblical. It is even funny when you realise that some of these "saints" never existed. The Catholic church is known for inventing dubious stories, and has admitted that, for example, "saint" Christopher never existed, but was just a fable invented to deceive their members. You now laugh when you see people praying to "saint" Christopher.

"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." Rom. 8:26

The Holy Spirit makes intercession of the children of GOD with unutterable groanings. What can be better than that? That Divine intercession of the Holy Spirit is not deficient, and need not be supplemented with the intercession of dead "saints".

You reject the intercession of the Spirit if you insist on praying to demons in the name of saints.

We dont reject intercession of the Spirit dear friend, we accept it whole heartedly, we just ask fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us..
P.S. on saint christopher, can you prove he never existed??

ScotFree:
I'll be right back to give my opinion. In the 'meanwhile', let me consult Saint Abraham. I need his help concerning what to say here. I shall return!

Stop making caricature of people's belief, its fine if you don't agree with them but dont lie against their beliefs, catholics dont "consult" saints, they ask for their prayers.. period..

felixomor:
How do you know the location of the dead?
Heaven or hell

Scripture, private and public revelation..

DoctorAlien:
My identity is not as important as the fact that you need to understand that "the dead know nothing." Eccl. 9:5.

They know nothing! Whether you're praying or not, they don't know!

Why don't you embrace the truth "while it is called To day"(Heb. 3:13)?

it does, if you are sharing truth,, All those links i posted from non catholic even anti catholic sites go against your "Truth"... i advise you too.. "Embrace truth while it is still today" Heb 3:13

So which is it, adventist or J.W

DoctorAlien:
"The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

How can the dead intercede for you with a GOD that they do not praise?

cc: easymancfc

Old testament sir,
in the new testament we hear of a lot of consciousness from so called "dead people"...

Hebrews 12:1, cloud of witnesses
HOW CAN THE DEAD WITNESS?

heb 12:21-24 we have come to the spirits of just men made perfect, Gods first born in the heavenly Jerusalem..
THIS TALKS ABOUT PEOPLE WE HAVE IN HEAVENLY PLACES CURRENTLY.. how can if they "know nothing" .

1 peter 3:19 he preached to the souls in prison when he descended..

HOW CAN THE DEAD HEAR IF THEY HAVE NO CONSCIOUSNESS

Ephe 4: 8-9 says he ascended and led a host of captives,
HOW CAN HE LEAD PEOPLE SLEEPING IN THEIR GRAVES...

luke 16.. the rich man and lazarus were not sleeping after death

mat 17 in the transfiguration Moses who died is seen with Jesus, when he is supposed to KNOW NOTHING AND BE SLEEPING IN WAITING FOR THE RESURECTION

felixomor:
So when you can pray to the God the Father,
Instead you use that time to call on other spirits to interceed for you to the father?

Sounds like intercomm.

By the way:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The scripture tells us the only acceptable "intercomm"

If only you can explain that scripture.

It not intercom.. the bible encourages praying for one another...Its just asking others to pray for us.. Which according to the bible is good and pleasing to God.. unless you also think the dead know nothing ?

DoctorAlien:
That teaching is not from the Bible. Don't try to support the pagan practice of praying to the dead with Scripture.

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12 How then can you claim dead people are praying for you?

"Neither have they anymore a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun." Eccl. 9:6 I guess your prayers are not done under the sun, and that's why dead people may have so large a portion in it as intercession.

Continue praying to demons in the name of saints.

Hi doctor alien.. its been a while..

i have said in my earlier post that what you condemn catholic "false doctrine" with or term as "unbiblical" is also called unbiblical by most other christians, see all the links i provided above.. P.S which one are you.. Adventist or J.W.

Ishilove:
It is falsehood to call upon dead people, or 'saints' to act as intermediaries between man and God. This practice robs Christ of His supremacy and centrality in God's plan of redemption. Paul talked about this in Colossians 2 vs 18.

Worship, reverence and prayer to anyone other than God the Father, His son Jesus and the Holy Spirit is unbiblical and must be vigorously rejected.

Catholic teaching doesn't take them as intermediates between God and man, but just intercessors, not MEDIATORS, people who we pray together with.. and it does not rob Christ of anything because we are all members of his body (romans 12/1 cor 12)and death doesn't separate us from Christ and his body (2 cor 5, Romans 8:38)

The belief in soul sleep in my knowledge is rejected by many Christian sects and is only accepted by a select few, JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES AND SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST, AND A HANDFUL OF OTHERS.. That belief is not unique to catholics here's what some evangelical sites habe to say about it... take note all of these are also anti catholic....

http://www.letusreason.org/doct15.htm
this is a long read but it addresses all of the scriptures and arguments provided by the o.p. and more..


http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/12/30/is-soul-sleep-biblical-what-does-the-bible-say/

here's a favourite of many anti catholic nairalanders
https://www.gotquestions.org/soul-sleep.html?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C4322479395

http://www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com/what-is-the-doctrine-of-soul-sleep-is-it-biblical/

https://carm.org/soul-sleep?_e_pi_=7%2CPAGE_ID10%2C8399780948

i can go on and on..

IF YOU THINK PRAYING TO THE SAINTS IS WRONG, YOUR SOUL SLEEP DOCTRINE YOU USE TO CONDEMN IT IS ALSO WRONG...

siidee:
Is there anyone moving from Abuja to PH for the exams?, mine is on the 6th of July. I intend going by air, kannor come and kee myself

i am but am going by road, dont have money to fly

monex:
i only pointed out that asking Mary to pray for them is not because they worship her but because they believe in communion/intercession of saints. I never said the communion of saints doctrine is biblical. most biblical references i see supported it are in the second canon which is not part of the popular bible (1st canon).

so i cannot say you are wrong.

The communion of saints doctrine is very biblical... and it is supported by the new testament..

Themandator:
Which of the religious images in the old testament was free of spirit ..The arks and tabernacle contained carried the presence of God and in all of the battles of the old testament God expressly ordered the utter destruction of the gods and their images and altar.... There is no image in the scripture that was being prayed to , knelt in from of like Joshua that was free of the presence of a spirit ....Draw your conclusion whether if it so then why it won't be same now. Apostle Paul in the book of Acts 17 told the that they ought to know that no temple made of human hands is the home of God ...This is Paul felling them that it doesn't contain God and I don't think he was referring to God in human flesh but his spirit

Stop flying the kite from the old testament, this was the era of visitation when God did not dwell in human beings. After Pentecost humans became the dwelling place of for here on the earth ..Old testament believers had visitation, God coming into tabernacle and ark but the new testament believers are blessed to be the ark and tabernacle of God ....We are now first spirit dwelling in human bodies with souls that connects connects the spirit and the human being in a continuous interaction.

Then coming to intercession , I want you to know that it is biblical to the extent that it is done by the living for the living ... Never was if stated anywhere in the bible that the dead and heavenly beings did intercession for those on the earth .The rich fool requested for it and was turned down ...The only person making intercession on our behalf is the holy spirit with groaning which cannot be ulterred ...Jesus Christ is our only mediator.. he is the only enthroned in heaven


As for italo ,he or she has gone round shopping for scripture to back up his argument.. he brought Joshua and I stated that if as so then because of the visitation but not so in our time. He even went as far as inputting that Jesus was prostrate and I asked him to who or when.

Then he moved into handkerchiefs and aprons just like you and I stated that they were for demonstration and not prayer purpose ..I am yet to see anyone praying to handkerchiefs and aprons. They were only used to convey the power of God to where it was needed by those in satans captivity.

Since then both Jim and you have being trying to convince Me that they are for memorial .It didn't carry the presence of God even though you regard them and have respect for them both of you have travelled the same rout Pe of bringing our nationalist into the equation even though nobody ever prays before them and not one person has held them to be mediators between man and God

My position has remained the same: images have no place in the new testament believers relationship with Jehovah God.

Rev 5:8 is clear is clear on intercession, Matt 18:10, Heb 12 are there also... it has been addressed on this thread abreast .. i didnt mention the ark, but you skipped that part... i talked about the temple images in 1 kings. 6 and the bronze serpent, You are arguing against your own idea. ... the catholic church doesnt teacch that images contain God, neither does it teach that people should pray to images... images in the Church are meant as a memorial, and they are respected because of whom they represent.. You argument of God not living in temple made by human hands is just your way of flogging a dead horse.. Paul made that statement because the "idols" themselves are the objects of worship in Athens and those people actually believed that their "god" lived in their shrines... WHICH IS NOT WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES... i have told you that the church doesnt teach that God lives in statues.. God never lived in 15 feet tall cherubims and door and wall carvings yet they were made in the temple and the israelites prayed in front of them ... and the israelites never believed as we do that God lived in those .. Unless you can show where it directly says to not make images in the new testament as memorials.. then you are just going round in circles

Themandator:
Where two or three are gathered he says he is there if the gathering is in his name ...This is different from statues which Apostle Paul told you in acts 17 is not the home of the almighty God.


Sir no religious status is free of spirit habitation .....Nobody, unless a mentally deranged person, has ever prayed to the imagesmornstaues of those nationalist you mentioned. ..Nobody has ever used their names to ask God for anything and certainly no body goes to kneel and revere those statues ...The word of God says he doesn't live in man made images or temple but that our Jody is his temple , his habitation


If Diana can't intercepted prayer made directly to God not through status but could intercept the answer ....See Daniel ....Then logically using images gives them the legal right to kidnap the prayer and answer them since the accident the brethren can point out the inconsistencies if God not living in images and then used of image to rep God .


Your apron and shadow analogy: his eyes cannot behold sin. He says he doesn't live in images ...If you create one you sin and offend him by That action ..,the difference is in what you do with them: you respect a milder block of cement ,the works of your hand while the shadow demonstrated God s power and proof the powerlessness if Satan against even the shadow of one who carries the presence of God in them ..lit is different from kneeling to pray before the shadow or handkerchiefs.


How many mediator does the scripture says we have in heaven? Who is the way , the truth and the life and without which no one can come to the father?


There is no assistant God anywhere , Jo assistant Jesus Christ in heaven ..We are sewted together with him in the heavenly places therefore can't be asking any other fellow to talk to God on our behalf

It doesn't make sense to have the spirit of God on and in you and be praying to Mary to pray to the spirit that is in you ...Only lack of scriptural understanding can make that happen

You are arguing with you own idea as italo says indeed...

Religious images are free of spirit habitation unless you can prove otherwise...

There were many statues in the old testament temple. two 15 feet tall cherubims, at the holy of holies, many carvings on the doors and walls see 1 kings 6, not to mention the cherubims on the ark, and the bronze serpent, by your logic since people prayed around temple statues or looked at the bronze serpent to be healed then it must contain a spirit...

according to Daniel, the prince of Persia didnt intercept the prayer offered to God, but neither did he answer it, he only delayed the angel carrying the answer to Daniel, let's say for the sake of argument that the prayer a catholic prays is intercepted by Diana, if the request is granted, the glory goes to God, not to the Diana, so Diana would be working for God indirectly..


On your last point intercession is what we ask for, and all Christians, even you ask for intercession and intercession for one another is pleasing to God, (2 tim 1:4), in heaven Others make intercession for us through Christ to God, Angels do, Other saints do, the holy spirit does, (heb 12:21-24, rev 5:8, 8:3, Romans 8:26-27, matt 18:10)

you made a claim and you still haven't proved it, give a scripture quote where it says religious statues must contain a spirit...

Themandator:
If they don't contain spirit why do they cry blood.
God is a spirit and those who worship him just do so in spirit and Satan is also a spirit and if God says he doesn't dwell in handmade temples and you continue to pray and venerate one that you have made , clearly only one spirit can be there and it can only be that of the devil since God doesnt live in such statues and if the contest between heaven and hell is for human worship Satan is duty bound to invade such images and receive every supplications made there as well as the veneration.

He will then perform such strange acts like releasing blood through the images to amuse and awe the venerators

NB: Venerate means to honour , worship , regard with great respect

there are several faults with your assumption.. You emphasize that God doesnt live in temple made by human hands which the church affirms when taken in its proper context, it does not mean that God isnt specially present in places of worship,

The statues dont have to contain any spirits, that just your faulty logic, going by that logic every statue whether of Major Fajuyi in Ekiti or that of other great men will be inhabited by spirits to receive honour given to them..

Spirits cannot intercept prayers not made to them.. i cannot direct my request for intercession to Mary or any other Saint in heaven and a "Diana" will intercept it,
Most prayers directed to the saints have elements of it directed to God and Jesus also and are ended most often with biblical wordings so no evil spirit will or even can intercept prayers not directed towards them...

Lastly not all catholic statues bleed, those that do, which is a very small percentage are investigated and the message behind it is determined.. which is actually gospel centered, either of repentance or forgiveness and conversion to Jesus Christ which no evil spirit would want to propagate , it doesnt contradict Orthodox christian belief.. as for the bleeding itself, it is a sign from God and God can manifest through material things, going back to bronze serpent, Peter's shadow, Paul's apron, Elisha's bones just like they didnt contain God, and they didnt contain evil spirits but God used them, so too are the bleeding statues, UNLESS YOU THINK GOD DOESNT HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE STATUES BLEED

P.S Venerate in the sense meant by catholics is to treat with respect we ADORE AND WORSHIP GOD ALONE, BUT WE GIVE RESPECT AND HONOUR TO WHOM IT IS DUE..

Themandator:
Your opinion that those images don't contain God is, if put to a referendum amongst your devotees, will be minority opinion. If you know the holy ghost cathedral in Enugu you would know that there is an image of a woman that is decoratdd and kept in a secure glass casing where people go to pray while kneeling in f don't of the image
People actually go there to cry out their hearts just ,like you see amongst Hindu worshippers.

The difference between your handkerchiefs and Peter image is that whereas those items were used to demonstrate the power , these images are prayed to or knelt in front of while purporting to pray to God .....They pray hail o holy queen , we fly to your patronage before those images


It is time you do away with the image which can be traced to the first sets of missionaries that went out after the biblical times ...They were largely commissioned by government and they came not with apostolic anoinitngs to bind the works of Satan amongst their converts but as teachers of new cultures , language and way of life which included Christianity as a new culture to replace the old heathen ways of the people ....They discovered that after all the suit wearing in the day time the people Usually returned to what they knew and could see aN effective god

A compromise brought the idol and image culture into catholism.


Don't kid yourself , there is no image that receives reverence as those ones in your church that is free of spirit habitation and the spirit is not that if God because he gave it to Christians on Pentecost

THE IMAGES DONT CONTAIN GOD AND ITS NOT MY OPINION NEITHER IS IT A MINORITY. THAT IS WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES.. this i can actually prove.. IF YOU CONFUSE VENERATION OR INTERCESSION FOR WORSHIP THEN THATS YOUR ISSUE..
Veneration of those images because because of who they represent is not worship even if someone kneels in front of it to pray... the hail holy queen prayer if you take it in its proper context as catholics do doesnt take away anything from Christ,
THE PRAYERS ARE NOT DIRECTED TOWARDS THE STATUE, THEY ARE DIRECTED TO GOD, OR WHOEVER'S INTERCESSION IS BEING SOUGHT WHO WILL TAKE THE PRAYERS TO CHRIST..

i still ask for proof of your claim that the images contain sprits..

Themandator:
Sir, I am not interested in which goddess was worshipped and where ..... I stated that the spirit that has gained entrance into those statues is that of Diana ..,the spirit ....That is what the prince of the air has dispatched to deal with the respect those statues do earn amongst your members ...I know for sure that people kneel in front of them to pray , they make supplications while kneeling in front of those images and Apostle Paul has told you that God doesnt dwell in temples made of human hand. The only suitable temple is us ....... Therefore, if images are not the dwelling place of God and his spirit , it can't be empty and be crying blood in some of your parishes ...Something must be inside or you people faked the blood cry scene

i ask again?
Can you provide proof of Your claim?

those images dont contain God and the Church never taught that they do.. Neither do they contain any spirits, as for bleeding or crying tears, i am as skeptical as you.. and the church encourages us to be skeptical also until proper investigation has been carried out, then the message behind such is revealed..
but if in fact they do, God can work through material things.. going back to the bronze serpent, Peter's shadow, Paul's apron and handkerchief, elisha's bones etc which did not contain God or "Diana" or Zeus or Hermes or Poseidon's spirit but also manifested signs and wonders.

Themandator:
Are you one and same as Italo? And ube something

No sir, I am a separate independent person, why do you ask?

Themandator:
New Jerusalem Bible as well as the King James gives the name as Diana ...I know some other Bible versions uses Artemis but what is important is that a goddess that worshipped and prayed to was recorded the Acts 19-26-28

and you think just because a greek goddess was worshipped in Ephesus that means it must be Mary?

Can you provide proof of that statement?

i mean good proof.. not the opinion of one anti catholic writer, direct bible proof? early christian writing or encyclopaedia brittanica maybe?

Themandator:
Your are italo, I suppose the screenshot display should help you remember who is in support of image and who is against


Acts 17:23-24 .....For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands

AMEN TO THAT...

GOD IS EVERYWHERE
BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE ARE NO LONGER GOING TO BE PLACES OF WORSHIP OR "CHURCHES".

OR THAT THOSE CHURCHES DO NOT HAVE A SPECIAL PRESENCE OF GOD IN THEM

Themandator:
That statues of a woman in your church contains the spirit of Diana of the Ephesus she plays mind game with you guys by shedding tears ....Acts 19:26-28

How do you know that Did you put it there?

P.S acts 19:26-28 doesn't mention any Diana, IT DOES MENTION THE GREEK GODDESS ARTEMIS AND THE CRAFTMEN WHO WERE SCARED OF LOSING MONEY IN MAKING "gods" FOR PEOPLE WHO USED TO WORSHIP ARTEMIS IN ALL OF ASIA..

ATLEAST TRY TO GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT..

Anti Catholics would want to draw Diana as the Roman equivalent of the Greek goddess just to "ROMANIZE" it and draw false similarities, Some People have compared Mary to Ishtar, now its Diana abi na Artemis. The temple in Ephesus was a Greek temple.

1. Catholics dont refer to Mary as a goddess.

2. Those images are not meant to be worshipped...

3. MARY IS NOT "DIANA" NOR ARTEMIS

OLAADEGBU:
When did knowledge translate to answering our prayers?

Mary and the saints don't "answer" prayers, they only take our intentions to Christ and Christ to the Father, who answers prayers.. what they do is that they join us in prayer..

YOUR ORIGINAL POINT WAS THAT MARY OR ANY OTHER SAINT REQUIRED OMNISCIENCE TO HEAR THOSE WHO ASK FOR THEIR PRAYERS WHICH IS A FALSE PREMISE

plappville:
You and your likes Should put Jesus at the center of ur hearts. Man cannot grant you salvation. The Pope will be judged just like you on the Last day. Stop defending/fighting for Him.

He said He will not pity anyone who insults His mom. At least He is an open minded Person. He apoke His mind. You at the other side, you are defending Him. SMH

Jesus is at the center of our hearts, but that doesn't mean we would allow you to misrepresent what the Pope said or meant by his statement..

whatever gave you the idea that the Pope "GRANTS SALVATION TO CATHOLICS"

I bet you also defend your religious leaders, does that mean Oyedepo, or Kumuyi or Oyakhilome or TB Joshua, whichever you belong, will grant you salvation? or that they won't be judged?

If deeper life defend kumuyi, or winners defend oyedepo, then it's all fine and dandy but when Catholics defend the Pope, then Jesus is not at the center of their hearts, or they are depending on the pope to "GRANT THEM SALVATION

Don't use double standards for Catholics

Just watched the video and the Pope was trying to make a point of not provoking people and not insulting people's faith and the only thing plapville could get out of it was "PUNCHING SOMEONE"..

It's a pity how people turn off their common sense and don't use logic anymore when the Catholic Church is involved...

SMH.. RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY IN NIGERIA IS REALLY SOMETHING ELSE

omojeesu:
All who killed and kill in the name of religion were and are not Christ's true disciples. Being a Protestant doesn't make you a Christian. I am not a Protestant. I am a disciple of Jesus according to the New Testament.

Jesus knows who are His. Those who are His also know Him.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Have you read the book, '50 years a slave of Rome' by Chinque?

Killing in the name of religion is wrong, and the Church doesn't condone it, the Church never directly killed anyone for the sake of religion.. Catholic governments and protestant governments have,


Actually being a protestant or Pentecostal makes you a Christian.. because your faith comes from them... and you are whether you accept it or not, It shows your set of beliefs, Christian orthodoxy or post reformation Christianity, the whole idea of I follow Christ not religion is a "Protestant" idea..

it's like saying I believe in the law of thermodynamics but deny the existence of Science

concerning the book you mentioned, i haven't, but if it's the regular anti Catholic book of so called former Catholics, there are a thousand and one Books by former non-Catholics I could present myself.. Rome Sweet Home by Dr Scott and Kimberly Hahn

omojeesu:
Have you read the book 'Foxe's Book of Matyrs'?

Some of your popes have even apologized for the horrendous persecution of Christians.

Fox is not very accurate.. he wrote a kind of one sided truth to the story because he himself was a protestant and even well studied Protestant historians don't agree with everything in his book..

Catholic governments killed people, the Church never directly executed anyone.. Just like protestant governments also killed and persecuted Catholics like in Elizabethan England.. even English people who were Catholics were executed (people like Edwin Campion)
The ANABAPTIST drowned people who didn't share their faith.. Even John Calvin executed some people..

I'm sure you ve heard of Ku Klux Klan (KKK) they are also a protestant sect..

Indeed some Popes might have apologized because killing EACH OTHER is not good..
THE FACT IS, WE KILLED EACH OTHER DURING THE REFORMATION.. DON'T DECEIVE YOURSELF BY THINKING IT WAS ONE SIDED.. PROTESTANTS ALSO PERSECUTED AND KILLED CATHOLICS

omojeesu:
This 'we' must be the Holy Spirit. What pride! What delusion, what insolence, what irreverence to say 'we' gave the Bible. What heresy. It's not surprising. Church history is clear about that and the inquisitions until God brought light by the Reformation till date.

So this 'we' also gave the Jewish Torah? Tell that to the Jew, that the Catholic Church gave them the Torah.

The Book you 'gave' condemned your doctrines and rituals.

WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GAVE YOU THE BIBLE.. GO AND READ ABOUT THE COUNCIL OF ROME (382 AD), HIPPO (393 AD) AND CARTHAGE (397 AD), READ HOW POPE DAMASCUS GATHERED ALL CHRISTIAN WRITINGS AND FROM THERE THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE WAS FORMED UNDER THE AUTHORITY OF ST AUGUSTINE (HIPPO AND CARTHAGE COUNCILS)..

THE BIBLE DOESN'T CONDEMN CATHOLIC DOCTRINE.. ITS YOU FALLIBLE INTERPRETATION OF IT THAT DOES..

History.. with all due respect to you.. you don't know the real history.. all you know is what your Anticatholic websites and books tell you..

The inquisition was not the Church's fault, Ferdinand and Isabella of aragon started it to ensure that their lands of Spain which was won back from the muslims after crusades was purged from any pagan or Islamic influence.. the Church had to intervene to ensure that people would be treated fairly.. people actually blasphemed in the secular courts in order that they be sent to the Church because they knew the Church would treat them fairly..

Go and read unbiased historically accurate accounts... BENZION NETANYAHU snr, the father of the current Israeli prime minister of the same name WHO IS A JEW wrote about the inquisition in its accurate historical form..
Go to encyclopedia Britannica and find out the truth

here's the title of Netanyahu's book..
The Origins of the Inquisition in Fifteenth-Century Spain by Benzion Netanyanhu

Themandator:
They had the indwelling but not yet matured in the knowledge of God and his ways as to fully understand that it was in them. They needed tangibles in other to relate with the new idea of God they found. If they had enough knowledge they would go home and mark according mark 16:17 but they didn't because they were yet baby Christians when they become sons they will not need handkerchiefs.

My pastor carries more grace than myself so , YES.

Then Sons don't need Elijah's mantle as some church did recently.. they don't need crusade or men of God to show them signs, because Mark 16 says the sign will follow them.. not them looking for signs from "men of God" we are all " men of God

Themandator:
Your fight is to prove that image is necessary but the point of departure is that while they used MATERIAL OBJECTS for demonstration you guys use it for worship or rather for praying by kneeling in front of them and making sentence prayers like herbalist do in their shrine were they have to have those funny images that they look at while making incantation

The point is.. those passages don't say what you think they say.. Peter was shown great honor.. and his shadow could heal people.. Paul's handerkerchief could heal people.. all these are material things statues are material things too and God could use them too just like he used Golden cherubims, bronze serpent etc

AGAIN WE WILL TELL YOU.. WE DON'T WORSHIP IMAGES.. BUT HONOR AND TREAT THEM WITH RESPECT BECAUSE OF WHOM THEY REPRESENT...

Themandator:
This is a difficult one for me to answer but I will try and do justice to the question.

All images with cultural orientation are intrinsically demonic for every culture stems from a religion of a people which is ungodly and unchristian. Therefore it is sinful to have them in your homes and worship places as part of your beautification drive.


But images of nationalist like Dr. Azikiwe and Chief Obafemi erected in public places are neither sinful nor demonic for they have no link to cultural practices and are not purposed to be worshipped or prayed to... Images in this class have no spiritual connection or aspiration to be deified.

images of Mary and the Saints are our own Christian heroes.. we have those images to remember and honor who they signify.. we don't worship or pray to the images but we respect and honor the ones they signify..

The church doesn't teach anyone to do incantations with the images.. but it does teach that we show respect because of whom they signify

IMAGES CANNOT BE INTRINSICALLY EVIL BECAUSE GOD COMMANDED IMAGES TO BE MADE.. IMAGES OF SERPENTS, OF CHERUBIMS, OF PALM CARVINGS, ETC..

WE HAVE TOLD YOU FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME.. WE DON'T WORSHIP IMAGES... THOSE ARE YOUR "THOUGHTS" NOT OUR INTENT