₦airaland Forum

blueAgent:
"And when he [the Lamb-Christ] had taken it, the
four living creatures and the twenty-four elders
fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp
and they were holding golden bowls full of
incense, which are the prayers of the saints."
In this passage both the 4 living creatures and 24
elders bow before the Lamb and hold the bowls
of incense. Where does it say they are saints? The
4 living creatures are presumably cherubim
based on Ezekiel 1, but cherubim are not saints,
they are heavenly beings. The 24 elders are not
defined and have been a topic of various
interpretations among scholars and theologians.
They may represent the people of God through
the ages, but we are not sure. However, one thing
is certain, they are not the object of prayer.
Throughout the book of Revelation, it is God and
the Lamb (Jesus Christ) who are always the focal
point of worship, honour and praise.
The book of Revelation again is filled with
apocalyptic language and is highly symbolic.
There are saints in heaven to be sure (Hebrews
12:22-24), but nowhere are we told that they hear
our prayers and intercede for us. Hebrews
12:22-24 seeks to show that the Church exists on
two levels, the heavenly and earthly level, the
Church is both in heaven and earth. Those who
seek to prove that saints can be addressed in
prayer are clearly reading into the text of Rev.5:8
what is not there. Nowhere does it say that the 24
elders are saints, but rather that they offer up the
prayers of the saints to God perhaps as
representatives. Even angels perform the same
duty of offering up the prayers of the saints
(Revelation 8:3-4), but that does not mean they
are redeemed saints. ALL who are in Christ Jesus
are "saints" (1 Corinthians 1:2), they do not need
to go through a process of canonization as Rome
has it today. Thus, the saints exist on 2 planes,
heavenly (those who have died) and earthly (those
who are still alive on earth).

Tampinu:
I provided evidence that men of Rome destroyed the Faith...You argued about the validity of my report.

Now I provided you another Biblical passage to support my initial comments re: Men of Rome destroyed the Faith then you are asking how or why my 2nd comment should relate to the original.

Look my brother, it's been nice reasoning with thee.

Have a great evening and enjoy your Roman Catholic ride....Vavavoooom!

Tampinu:
All the links you shared above are nothing but jargons. You are telling me Israel is more of a Christian Nation than Ethiopia...You are a joker.

Israel is the cradle of Christianity? heh Haba! I rest my case.

Haile Selassie I defender of the FAITH is only known by the Rastafarians? You make me laugh...That the head f the oldest church in the world is not known for Christianity? Do you see the photos below? Do you know his Christian Titles including "Defender of the Faith?"

[b]Tewahedo (Ge'ez ተዋሕዶ) is a Ge'ez word meaning "being made one". This word refers to the Oriental Orthodox belief in the one perfectly unified Nature of Christ; i.e., a complete union of the Divine and Human Natures into one nature is self-evident in order to accomplish the divine salvation of humankind, as opposed to the "two Natures of Christ" belief commonly held by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and most Protestant Churches. The Oriental Orthodox Churches adhere to a Miaphysitic Christological view followed by Cyril of Alexandria, the leading protagonist in the Christological debates of the 4th and 5th centuries. Miaphysitism holds that in the one person of Jesus Christ, Divinity and Humanity are united in one (μία, mia - "one" nature (φύσις - "physis" without separation, without confusion, without alteration and without mixing[5] where Christ is consubstantial with God the Father in as much as He is with Mankind. Around 500 bishops within the Patriarchates of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem refused to accept the Dyophysitism (two natures) doctrine decreed by the Council of Chalcedon in 451, an incident that resulted in the first major split in the main body of the Christian Church.[6]

The Oriental Orthodox Churches, which today include the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, the Armenian Orthodox Church, the Syriac Orthodox Church, the Malankara Orthodox Church of India, the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church, and the Eritrean Orthodox Tewahedo Church, are referred to as "Non-Chalcedonian", and, sometimes incorrectly by outsiders as "monophysite". Monophysitism is a theology adopted by a 5th-century presbyter and archimandrite in Constantinople known as Eutyches and claims that Christ has "One Single Nature" where His Divinity absorbed His Humanity resulting in a "Simple" mathematical "One" Nature to which the Oriental Orthodox Churches object. According to these, both natures in Christ are perfectly preserved after the union in "mia physis" - One Nature; yet, not resulting in a distinct third Nature.
[/b]

So when the Pope and the heads of all Christian churches worldwide are meeting with Haile Selassie, It's not because of HS's position in Christianity, it is because these church leaders are RastafarI adherents, abi? Maybe it's cos the church leaders wanna smoke some weed and borrow a few reggae tapes, maybe that's why they decided to meet Haile Selassie. HaHahah

Not sure I can reason with you further on these matters. Walk good....

blueAgent:
Man does not have a Soul but man himself is a living Soul.

The psalmist describes death in these words,
“Thou takest away their breath, they die, and
return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit,
they are created” (Psalm 104:29, 30). Here the
order is reversed, and their breath returns to God
at death. Solomon said the spirit returns. Here
God gives the spirit to create, but Genesis says
He gave the breath to create. It only makes sense
when we understand that the two words are used
interchangeably and mean the same thing.
Please take note that this “spirit of life” is not
necessarily the same as the Holy Spirit, neither is
the “breath of life” the same as the regular air we
breathe. This breath or spirit is the special, life-
giving power of God which makes the body a
functioning organism. Read Genesis 2:7 again,
and try to visualize the act of creation. “And the
Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground.”
We have no difficulty with this. We can see that
dead body, perfectly formed and containing the
very elements necessary for life. But there was no
life. The heart wasn’t beating. The blood was
there, but it wasn’t flowing. The brain was there,
but it wasn’t thinking.
Then God added one more thing to the body He
had made. He “breathed into his nostrils the
breath of life, and man became a living
soul” (Genesis 2:7). Do not miss the significance
of these words—they are often misconstrued.
God did not put a soul into the body. He added
only one thing—breath or spirit. Then, as a result
of the body and breath uniting, man BECAME a
soul.

blueAgent:
Show me a Bible verse that shows that the Elders where dead Saints.

I don't lose the argument, so far none of you guys have been able to give me a bible verse that shows that dead Saints are in Heaven.

Tampinu:
How does all what you have written above regarding the Catholic church compare with what is written in the Bible in the Book of Romans 1:17-32?

I await your reply...

With thanks

Tampinu:
Thanks for your comments.

I have posted info and given you direct links to my sources (Kebra Negast) which is an ancient.
Are you telling me that all the stuff that you mentioned above, to which you cannot provide a single direct link or page or reference supercedes sacred documents that have been preserved in Ethiopia since way back when?

Bearing in mind that Ethiopia is the first country mentioned in the Bible (Genesis 2:13-KJV), is there another country that can know more about God than God's own country according to Psalm 87-KJV? How far back will Christian history go? Does it go past when "christianity" was formed? Do you know which coutry first declared Christianity as a state 'religion'? (It's worth a google, but hint is Ethiopia and Armenia)

Consider the Ethiopian Tewahedo [/b]meaning below...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Orthodox_Tewahedo_Church

Are you familiar with the King's speech below, at all?
[b]


We in Ethiopia have one of the oldest versions of the bible, but however old the version may be, in whatever language it might be written, the Word remains one and the same. It transcends all boundaries of empires and all conceptions of race. It is eternal.

No doubt you all remember reading in the Acts of the Apostles of how Philip baptised the Ethiopian official. He is the first Ethiopian on record to have followed Christ, and from that day onwards the Word of God has continued to grow in the hearts of Ethiopians. And I might say for myself that from early childhood I was taught to appreciate the Bible and my love for it increases with the passage of time. All through my troubles I have found it a cause of infinite comfort.

“Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest” who can resist an invitation so full of compassion?

Because of this personal experience in the goodness of the Bible, I was resolved that all my countrymen should also share its great blessing and that by reading the Bible they should find truth for themselves. Therefore, I caused a new translation to be made from our ancient language into the language which the old and the young understood and spoke.

Today man sees all his hopes and aspirations crumbling before him. He is perplexed and knows not whither he is drifting. But he must realise that the Bible is his refuge, and the rallying point for all humanity. In it man will find the solution of his present difficulties and guidance for his future action, and unless he accepts with clear conscience the Bible and its great Message, he cannot hope for salvation. For my part I glory in the Bible.
_Emperor Haile Selassie I (Lion of Judah, Prince of Peace, King of Kings, Elect of God, Earth's Rightful Ruler, Defender of The Faith)

Please don't come and challenge Kebra Negast; if you know not the Kings, how can you know the 'Glory of the Kings'?


Peace

Tampinu:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn093.htm

I just read your link and with all due respect to you... To anyone who truly knows christian history... Its not very accurate..

It talks about Nestorius and Arius introducing Heresy.. In case you dont know.. It was THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NOT THE CHURCH OF ETHIOPIA, WHO COMBATED THESE HERESY...
Arius's heresy was addressed at the COUNCIL OF NICEA in 325AD which was called at Constatine's request and which he attended also... IT WAS THIS COUNCIL THAT DEFINED THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, WHICH THE ETHIOPIAN CHURCH CLAIMS TO BELIEVE IN YOUR ARTICLE.. Arius heresy is termed ARIANISM.. LOOK IT UP AND SEE WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS TO SAY ABOUT IT...

Nestorius heresy was also combated by THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AT THE COUNCIL OF EPHESUS IN 431 AD.. And the doctrine of THEOTOKOS was defined... NESTORIANISM IS THE NAME GIVEN TO NESTORIUS HERESY.. GOOGLE IT AND SEE...

BOTH HERESY CHALLENGES JESUS'S DIVINITY AND THE CHURCH RIGHTLY DEFENDED IT...

AS FOR HELENA... SHE IS A CHRISTIAN CHAMPION WHO HELPED IN LIBERATING JERUSALEM AND SHE IS RESPECTED AS SUCH IN MANY CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS LIKE THE ANGLICAN, ORTHODOX, PRESBYTERIAN, LUTERAN ETC...

just Google the council of nicea and ephesus or Nestorianism and Arianism use good sites like encyclopaedia brittanica or even wikipedia for historical and factual accuracy


http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/

blueAgent:
Show me proof that Catholic was setup by the Apostles.

You are not sincere about knowing the truth, if not you could have read those articles on the links i sent to you.
I guess you are afraid to discover the truth. your church is the mystery Babaylon. why not google it. don't be naive open your eyes what makes you intelligent is not what you are taught but what you learn and discover for yourself.

The bible talks about babylon in the book of revelation, that will change time and laws. this your Church has done and it acknowledge's it.

What more proof.

blueAgent:
Your logic does not hold.elders are not dead saints period stop fabricating ideas to suit your church doctrines.

Your links will be Bleep and madeup of lies, they cannot stand Bible scrutiny.

So where does the bible state or support the idea of purgartory?

Since you know after death is Judgement?

kilisi:
I have been reading the back and forth argument. But hope you all can reason on this scripture: John 3:13.

Thanks.

blueAgent:
The elders are not men who died neither are they saints stop decieving yourself.
God can create elders for the purpose of worshipping him in Heaven.there is no Bible verse that thats us who the elders are.

If you know you are unbaised and honestly seek the truth click this links and read.

https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/48/t/spirits-of-the-dead


https://www.amazingfacts.org/media-library/book/e/4/t/absent-from-the-body

blueAgent:
Your response is laughable.
Story telling. Jesus said when two or more are gathered in his name his is their with them. All this excuse of Apostolic authority is crap

blueAgent:
Which one is APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY ?
Jesus said in Mark 16:17 "
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues"

blueAgent:
Are the Elders dead? and who said the witnesses in Heb12:1 are the dead Saints.

blueAgent:
You are confusing yourself.
Go and google about the history of your Church doctrines.
Paul spoked about the falling away of early christains from the faith and from sound doctrine. you can see it is not a new thing.
Your church claims to be the first church but thats a big lie.

Ellen G White was not the sole founder of Adventist they were more than 3 people which started the church based on Bible doctrine not on Heresy like your church.

blueAgent:
Adventist is the best church in the World. i was not born an Adventist but i discovered the truth and became one.

We are not intrested in general opinion but We are intrested in what God says through his word the Bible.
Have you not read in James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Have you not read in revelation that the Devil will decieve the whole world? that he has successed in doing using your church and evil doctrines. My church is different we refuse to compromise.

Ferisidowu:
Please someone should explain this ... Jesus said "today you will be with me in Paradise"

Paul said .
...."I'm in a strait betwixt two to go and meet the Lord or stay with you a little longer"

The knowledge the old testament saints have about the dead isn't as clear as the one we have now


Jesus talked about losing a member of your body is preferred to the whole of your body lost in hell fire....

A lot of us still really haven't understood the Bible





It's not enough to judge the Catholics everyone knows their flaws even their Popes do apologise for what they did in the past ..... We modern Christians are Swift to point accusing fingers but never ready to help or show them the Way..... That shows we aren't different from the lawyers and Pharisees


Also in the case of cloud of witnesses



One thing you should know is that the soul never dies (cease activity) ..... It can be separated from God forever (2nd death)


And also Abel who was dead yet was speaking......

Amberon11:
James 5: 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church , and let them pray over him , anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.

Amberon11:
The bible didnt say you should ask the dead to pray for you.

Mark 12: 27 He is not the God of the dead , but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken."

Ubenedictus:
ask yourself why you are a member of a church whose teaching are alien to 1900yrs of Christianity.

blueAgent:
But there is no principle supporting Christians to pray to the dead. Jesus why teaching his disciples how to pray explained that all prayers must be done through his name alone .

blueAgent:
Proudly Adventist. look it is not about the Church or personal opinion but what theñ Bible says.

If the dead where alive in the other world.
then explain to me why the Bible says are unconscious or why there will be a Resurrection?

blueAgent:
Can you give me an example in the Bible where people prayed to the dead to intercede for them or bible verses that supports us praying to the dead.

blueAgent:
I have gone through those site. they are all garbage same rubbish doctrine from the pit of Hell.

blueAgent:
This are misinterpreted bible verses. they don't in any way support the idea that the dead are conscious. google this bible verses abd see the explanation i would send them to you when i have the chance.

felixomor:
You are the one who should apply reasoning.
So heaven or hell is determined by what you say
Or by God's judgement?

U are funny.

felixomor:
"Paul would be in heaven"

Even to a kindergarten, that statement is not a certain statement.

DoctorAlien:
Exposing the forgeries and dubious inventions of the Catholic church is a story for another day.

You can go and educate yourself on how your church baptized all the pagan gods and goddesses of Rome, giving then "Christian names", including the pagan god Bacchus("st. Christopher".

felixomor:
Unfortunately we dont see these "members on earth" being asked in while in prayer.
It seems to only be the "sacred ones in heaven" you mention their names frequently.

By the way how do you know the "members in heaven"?
Have you seen their judgement?