₦airaland Forum

^^^^^



You did not disappoint me at. I was expect just this.

Here is the thing, it is bcus you glued yourself with Shuyuk of Saudi ONLY it the reason you feel anything that goes against their ideology is bid'ah. it is ABSOLUTELY his OPINION to restrict UNISON DHIKR to the two(2) Eids. I am not here to fault Sheik Bin Baz (ra). It is his understanding but other great Shuyuk understood this in their way backed by Qur'an and Sunnah as he did. You have to understand that Islam is bigger than him. He is not the only qualified Sheik in any subjects. His contemporaries were many; of them is Sheik Adam ilory(ra) who understood more more more and more.

Now, you may say i tried to downplay your sheik. Fact is, your post is "my sheik said". The same thing you people accused some Sufis of. It is all a joke anytime anyday.

I repeat, you slowly came to realisation of group dhikr after you kicked against it. You also kicked against UNISON dhikr but now that i brought the two Eids up, that sent you shivering. My point is, you do not have the right to call people who do GROUP DHIKR in UNISON bid'a. It is clear as daylight now that you do not have CLEAR evidence to reject this practice. It is as clear as the sun that GROUP- UNISON DHIKR is evident just by citing the two Eids. If those Shuyuk you love dont agree with it base on their mechanical and theoretical approach, doesn't make it bid'a. Besides, it is his opinion not the word of the prophet(SAW). He has no clear dalil against it

There is no "Qola Allah Qola rosul" in your post above other than as usual general statement that "matter of innovation will be rejected" which is not even properly understood in its CONTEXT.


And you said earlier that i accused your post that you copied which was the word of Sheik bin baz. Quiet frankly, i did not know but i did know it is from that arena. But you have said the same of mine that I "misguide" people. Yet, you didn't know where i got mine from either. I later made it clear that it is from Alhu Sunna wajama but you could care less. This makes me think, why do you think KNOWLEDGE OF ISLAM IS RESTRICTED TO SAUDI?. This is rather dogmatism if you have to keep rejecting millions of others Shuyuk from other parts of the world..

NEVER did islam gives them preference over others. So from what I can deduce from your post so far, GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH to you because Sheik bin Baz said so.


But for me, GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS SUNNAH because we have dalil. If it is Sunnatic on the days of Eid, it is Sunnah anytime, anyday, anywhere. If I were you, i wont talk about this anymore

smh

joseph1832:
I wonder why this lady can't keep her mouth shut! It seem at any given opportunity, she let her mouth run loose like a tap with damaged handle.

Just be sure you keep your secrets away......FAAAAAAAAAR away from her.

lexiconkabir:
[size=15pt]GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH[/size]

I guess you do your Eld in different form. Dhikr on Eld while sitting is UNISON is BID"A?


This is in GROUP and UNISON. It Is BID"A (INNOVATION) [size=20pt]?[/size]

"Allahu Akbar (3x) La ilaha Ilallah, wa Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar wa lillahil hamd"


This is UNIVERSALLY accepted SUNNAH. If it's VALID and SUNNATIC on the two Eids, it is SUNNAH EVERYDAY, ANYTIME and EVERYWHERE. This rubbishes "he said, she said" "ahadith" you have presented as "proofs"


Oh I see. I guess GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON is sunnah ONLY twice (2x) a year.


You gonna have to present your evidence for that.

lexiconkabir:
[size=13pt]GROUP DHIKR, IN ONE VOICE, IN UNISON IS BID'AH[/size] KHALAS, EXCEPT IF THAT GATHERING IS FOR DISSEMINATING KNOWLEGDE. THE PROPHET DIDNT DO IT, I WON'T DO IT.

I guess you do your Eld in different form. Dhikr on Eld while sitting is UNISON is BID"A?


This is in GROUP and UNISON. It Is BID"A (INNOVATION)

[size=15pt]"Allahu Akbar (3x) La ilaha Ilallah, wa Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar wa lillahil hamd"[/size]

lexiconkabir:
I have told you what i mean by new method, group dhikr is bid'ah.

What is GROUP?

by dictionary, it means: a number of people or things that are located close together or are considered or classed together. It aslo means
BATCH

You said it is bid'a


What are you doing when you go to Eld?. You sit and you all make dhikr before salat eld commences, right?. Is that not group? It is bid'a?.

You said UNISON dhikr is bid'a but on Eld day, we sit and make dhikr in UNISON. It is bid'a right?.

The after we finish salat Eld, we remain seated for Khutba, right?. That, i can say is "group of knowledge". It is both Sunnah. Twist ALL you want. And why only Salafi scholars deviated out of 1.6 billion?. JOKE!


Keep twisting and deceiving yourself. In this post of yours you still back n forth to confuse me but i won't be confused


Group also means BATCH. For instance, mosques that are located in the metropolitan area usually have lots and lots of people. Mosque can not contain all of them. So the first batch (group) sit and make GROUP UNISON DHIKR, the second, the third and fourth like that where i usually pray Eld. They are bld'a?

I am not even going to quote you. I guess you need to read your highlighted (bold) post up there. It is clear from that already. Anything else is a waste of time. There is lots of knowledge today but devoids of WISDOM. These are what you kicked against when you first started:



Group dhikr
Loud dhikr
Group dua



It seems you didnt find evidence for them in the beginning was the reason you kicked against them. Now, slowly but surely you backtracked. I provided evidences for group dhikr but you cancelled it out. From your bolded post up there(today), it is clear we can deduce it is gathering of dhikr AFTER salah. But scholars you posted given their explanations what they think it means, is their opinion. Hence, you can not fault opinion of other scholars who insist it is gathering of dhikr. I get the description of what those scholars you posted are saying.

Correct me if I am wrong please


They seemed to be saying there is GATHERING of people in the masjid after salah and making LOUD DHIKR when Ibn Masu'd heard them. Hence, that's agreeing with what i have been saying. However, scholars you posted shied away from saying "gathering" or "group". They only mentioned loud dhikr. So if Ibn Mas'ud(RA) heard bunch of muslims in the mosque making dhikr together, what's that? individual?. It seems to me however from descriptions of scholars you stated meant they making loud dhikr individually and not unison. This is really a twist. You are not really disagreeing with me but you chose to.

You also have kicked against making dua together earlier in your posts but i could also see you dont have problem with it. You keep going back and forth. Now you saw my comment in another thread about making dua together and you kicked against it again. What Else do you want?. How would children learn FOR INSTANCE istighfar, subhanallah, alhamdulilah, Allahu Akbar if not group dhikr?. Be reasonable for a second!. It is after we learned it in group and fluent in it before we say it individually and quietly. Also, i learned sura Yasin off hand by group dhikr and we said in both unison and loud, individually and loud at age 12. But now that im a grown, i dont need to do group dhikr if i dont want to but condemning it which is what you're doing is creating FITNA and kicking against the sunnah.

Now read this,


*** the descriptions given by scholars you posted above about people making dhikr loud (individually i assumed),

*** group dhikr made in unison (loud)

*** individual dhikr (loud or silent)

are all MOSTLY done by the SUFIS. Deny it if you want. I pray at "salafi masjid", i:e people of your same ideology. NOt for once i heard or seen them do the first description favored by your scholars. You are all a joke.

Remember DHIKR is REMEMBRANCE of Allah. Now, if GROUP DHIKR (UNISON) also known as assemblies of dhikr is bid'a, are we performing bid'a when we go to Eld in the morning, we sit and we all SHOUT OUT LOUD in UNISON "Allahu Akbar Allahu Akbar La ilaha ila Allah Allahu Akbar".

Is that DHIKR or NOT?.

Is that assembly or group or not?

Is it bid'a or SUNNAH

Or you want to claim that's exception?

Note, I am ONLY debating GROUP dhikr generally. I am not talking about specific group or individual what they might be doing therein that may be crazy. That's another case.

I hope you read yourself carefully before posting. Our argument in the beginning was focused on whether GROUPS /ASSEMBLIES of Dhikr is bid'a or not. Don't forget that. But now let's see what you wrote below

lexiconkabir:
The objection of 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood was not with the words "Allahu Akbar..." loudly or with the "Dhikr of Allah" (Remembrance of Allah),

Don't you think you ended up agreeing with me now?. Yourself kicked against this at out start. Now you diverted.

rather what the sahaabas objected was a new method and technique of dhikr which was not taught by the prophet (s.a.w) for gaining rewards.

what's the new method?. My argument has always been group dhikr or assemblies of dhikr, whether loud or silent is SUNNAH but you insisted is bid'a. Here now you just gave general statement i:e "method" etc not taught by the prophet (saw). My focus was not about specific group. My focus is group dhikr is sunnah but you said consistently it's bid'a. You are now diverting.

Anas ibn Malik said to his people, “Indeed, you indulge in actions which are as insignificant to you as a hair, while at the time of the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, we considered them to be destructive sins.”
[Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 499]

this does not address group or assemblies of Dhikr. This Hadith can apply to anything.

Hence knowing that the best of people were the sahaabas , who adhered to the teachings of the prophet (s.a.w) in the best of ways and when they object to something, we (Muslims) better pay Attention !!

Ibn Masud (ra) did not object to group dhikr, loud or not but you did. You condemned the SUNNAH

We have ahadeeth wherein the sahaabas (r.a.a) also made dhikr loudly such as after the fardh salah and etc, so the objection of 'Abdullah ibn Masud (r.a) and the other sahabaas(like Umar and Ibn Abass) was on this new method of dhikr which wasn't taught by the prophet (s.a.w) and not at the dhikr because the man responded to Ibn Mas'ud (r.a) by saying

"we were only learning or teaching each other some dua'as, rather what he said was that we only intended to earn good deeds"

obviously your statements are very conflicting and you may need to clear yourself

Prophet (s.a.w) said " If anyone introduces an innovation, he will be responsible for it. If anyone introduces an innovation or gives shelter to a man who introduces an innovation (in religion), he is cursed by Allah, by His angels, and by all the people [Abu Dawood, Book 39, Hadith 4515]

Again, this is a general statement. It can apply to anything. It does not address group dhikr

Empi.ree stop misleading people, after this, i wont give any reply again except if necessary Allaah musta'an.

Well, this is your opinion. You have placed yourself to determine who is guided and who is not. This is the way of the JEWS AND CHRISTIANS. Qur'an says:

"They said: Be Jews and Christians and you will be guided. Say, Nay! (We follow) the religion of Ibrahim. He was no polytheist".


It's the same you are saying here that whoever is not salafi is either upon bid'a or hell bound. My post is from alhu sunnah wajamah. Percentage of salafi is only 5% of the Muslims, which is approximately 10 million of them of 1.6 billion. So you are dissenters.

There is no need to complicate anything. You already did. Very simple. ARE GROUPS or ASSEMBLIES of dhikr bid'a or Sunnah?. That's all I care about

Far as I'm concerned group dhikr is SUNNAH. I have shown you evidences. I thought you would come up with strong counterclaims. Please stop telling people not to gather to make dhikr. It's sunnah. If you do it individually in your home or at masjid it is well as well. But stop discouraging people from making assemblies of dhikr. That makes you alhu bid'a for condemning Sunnah. I wonder how you learned many things you learned today if not through both group dhikr gathering of knowledge. Both are valid

lanrexlan:

Have you read D. O. Fanguwa's "Irinkerindo Ninu Igbo Olodumare" and "Ireke Onibudo"?

I grew up with that. My brother loved narrating the stories to us.

^^^

You be D. O. Fagunwa now

Jabata Is A Copycat Of "Sheikh" Jabaru Who Used To Run His Mouth About Allah and His Messenger (sallaAllshu Alaiy Wasalaam) In The 80s and 90s. They Only Possessed Different Approach. The Two Were Extreme

HAH:
Jazakallah hairan, personally I learned the ayatul khursi as a child because it was recited after every prayer, not in a school so I wonder how my child will learn it or even know that it should be recited after prayers.

Yea, it is very scary now with the way they telling people not to do this or that. People need to return to Allah's path. These modern Muslims are only reading texts. They only believe in what they see.

Alhamdulilah, we still have some masajid practicing Islam the old way. The way our fathers and mothers would come to the masjid at least 30mins before fajr commenced and sat down to make dhikr.

A lot have changed now man.

HAH:
I once met an elderly man in Maiduguri he said the moment they asked us to stop dua in congression calamity befell our state, he said just imagine this Boko Haram menace, he said is it not insane for a group of people under the threat of Boko Haram will pray together and everyone will just dust his clothe and leave without any group prayer for Allah to bring succor to us. He said those who are telling us not to duas are not but playing to the dictates of the yahud

SubhannaAllah. Exactly!

A proverb says "An idle hand is devil workshop" That's what is going on

On Why Ibn Mosu'd Kicked Out The Group Of Dhikr In The Masjid, The Real Reason He Did That


I did not state the reason he did in my earlier post. Here it is(below). It would be cumbersome for me to post all the analysis and investigations carried out about the narrators you (lexicon) cited to discredit GROUP DHIR. Unless you want me to it, I shall do so at your request. But right now I am going to post just THE REASON he kicked against them.


[size=40pt]"[/size] Imam Tabarani also mentions this narration with another weak chain. He mentions it by the narrator Abdul Bari who is also weak. Imam Tabarani in his narration mentions the whole event of the loud congregational dhikr and how some people were thrown out of the Mosque. But Imam Tabarani also mentions an additional sentence. He says that the people in the mosque were also telling stories of their old Arab ancestors and that Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) was not prohibiting the loud dhikr but he was prohibiting such story telling in the mosque of the Prophet (peace & blessings be upon him). This can explain the basis of the origins if any.

Sayedena Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) saw the people not doing dhikr but actually story telling and therefore told them to go out of the mosque because he could also foresee with his spiritual insight and knowledge that these people will join the khawarij as stated in the book by Imam Darimi.

Finally every single chain of narration that has been presented in this article leads only to weak and unreliable narrators and does not technically directly link to Abdullah bin Masud (Allah be pleased with him). Therefore these narrations prohibiting loud congregational zikr cannot be accepted, the chains have been broken, they are unreliable and therefore not authentic, therefore perform loud congregational zikr fearlessly, you are not performing a biddah![size=40pt]"[/size]


So This Is My Humble Submission On Group Dhikr So Far. Don't Know If It Is Necessary For Me To Tackle Other Topics: xyz COUNTS, Chapter or Verse, xyz REWARDS. I Shall Do That If It Is That Important.



Walaikum Salaam

.

exmuslim1:
Lol. Now you're asking me what Al-Juhfa is. You couldn't even break down the hadith. Al-Juhfa was a name of a town back then, not the name of any hadith book o, if you like keep searching. And mister, if you don't know that Lukman was black, then I don't even think you're a Muslim. I get the fact that not all messengers are prophets, but dude, can you please tell why the only exception of them all is a black man. And now you want to educate me on Tafsir, bro, na walkaway defeat.


May Allah guide you to the right path too lol.

I read you earlier. You sound like a typical joker

They have tagged EVERYTHING bid'a (innovation) to discourage Muslims from practicing Islam. These people condemning everything are protestant. They are "protestant Islam"

It is Sign of the time. We have some people now claiming to know SUNNAH in this Last Age and they think those men of old were silly. You raised good point. How do we children back then know the dua if not THE GATHERINGS/ASSEMBLIES OF DHIKR?

You can see bcus of abandoning this practices is the reason we now have thugs everywhere. They have no knowledge of the deen but they scream "Qur'an and SUNNAH" everywhere. There are documented evidences of group dhikr. As you rightly said, even if prophet did not do it, it is common sense for us to do it. I learned many stuff and chapters of Quran through group dua.

They now claiming it is bid'a to gather and make du'a. This is fabrication. It is not just in the North or Nigeria. This is the way it is in the Western world too except few. Once Imam says "salaam alaikum". They all stand up and leave. They dont even make private dhikr either. This is fading the ESSENCE of islam. Bro, knowledge is going away. I am not surprised at all. Read this thread when you get the chance and follow if you want.

https://www.nairaland.com/3301071/muhammad-alee-jabata-not-among#48710714

They now campaigning against group du'a, group dhikr etc. How would children learn if not by that?. Group dhikr is SUNNAH. Those who condemn it are Alhu Bid'a pretending to be people of SUNNAH. What they dont understand is, it is not befitting for the prophet(SAW) to do what we would do. They trying to compare themselves with the prophet. I thank God you spotted this madness. Because people dont do dhikr anymore, they have lots of time doing nothing. So shaytan took over. If they see any mosque doing group dhikr now, they tag it "alhu bid'a" (people of innovation)

^

I made mistake where i said " i:e Ibn Abass" in paragraph 10. It was supposed to be Ibn Mas'ud

lexiconkabir:
@Empir.ee here are your own salafs.


We used to sit in front of Abdullah ibn Masoud's (r.a) house before the Fajr prayer waiting to go with him to the Masjid. Abou Mousa al-Ash`aarie (r.a) came and asked us: 'Did Abu Abdurrahman (i.e. Ibn Masoud) leave yet?'

More Rebuttals By Alhu Sunnah Wajamah on the above hadith you referenced. You may click on your moniker here in reference to the narration you posted. Their answers goes thus:


Let us first state the opinion of the giant classical scholars about this narration. Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Imam Jalaluddin Al-Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami, Imam Muhammad al-Munawi, Imam Ismael Haqqi and Alamah Alusi (Allah have mercy on all of them) have said that this narration of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) is unreliable as it goes against the Quran and Sunnah!

Imam Jalaluddin Al Suyuti

Imam al-Suyuti (Allah have mercy on him) said in his book Natijat al-Fikr (his work on the permissibility of loud group dhikr), “This narration from Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) needs exposition in terms of its chain of narrations and who of the hadith masters transmitted it in their works, and I have seen evidence that would disprove its being established from Ibn Masud.”


Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal

Imam al-Suyuti further goes on to write, that Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal (Allah have mercy on him) transmitted in his Kitab al-Zuhd, that Husain ibn Muhammad related with his chain from Abu Wa’il that he said, “Those who think that Abdullah Ibn Masud used to prohibit the dhikr! I never sat with Abdullah Ibn Mas`ud in a gathering save that he did dhikr in it.”

See the underlined, you may twist t to mean it doesn't mean he is in the gathering of group dhikr even as clear as it is. I will try to post what classical scholars said or how they interpreted that. Point to note: How can Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) consider it a biddah to do congregational dhikr when he himself participated in this dhikr?!?! This reference of Kitab al-Zuhd by Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal has been quoted by Imam Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami and Imam Muhammad al-Munawi in their books.


Imam Muhammad al-Munawi

[size=16pt]Imam Muhammad al-Munawi writes in his book Fayd al-Qadir that this event of people being thrown out of the Mosque - there is no evidence for it. He further goes onto quote Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal from Kitab al-Zuhd that Abdullah ibn Masud used to sit in gatherings and perform dhikr in it.[/size]


Allamah Alusi

Allamah Alusi in his tafsir Ruh-ul-Mani has written on the commentary [Surah Taha 20, Verse 7: “Though you speak out loud, He knows your secrets and what is even more concealed.”] Allamah Alusi states that the incident mentioned regarding Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) throwing people out of the Mosque is not correct and the earlier Muhadditheen have all rejected it.


[size=15pt]He further writes that this narration conflicts against the many authentic narrations in support of loud dhikr and that Abdullah ibn Masud himself did loud dhikr during the time of the Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon him). He further writes, that if one does assume that such an event did take place, one possible explanation (if any) could be that he threw the men out of the mosque due to them being a nuisance by performing excessively loud dhikr but I still hold the position that the narration is weak and the chains are unreliable.[/size]



Imam Ismael Haqqi

Imam Ismael Haqqi in his Ruh ul Bayan rejects this narration of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) by quoting the following verse of the Holy Quran [Surah Baqarah 02, Verse 114: “Who could do greater wrong than someone who prevents access to the mosques of Allah, preventing His name from being remembered in them, and goes about destroying them?”]
Imam Ismael Haqqi goes onto say that how could Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) know this verse of the Qur’an and then possibly prevent people to gather and remember Almighty Allah in the mosques. He says the chain is already very weak and therefore it is unreliable but even more so this would mean Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) has gone against the Quran which is absolutely not possible to believe.



Even if this narration were established,i:e Ibn Abass kicked against dhikr gathering, it goes against explicit rigorously authenticated Prophetic hadiths that permit dhikr out loud as long as it is not excessively loud. These hadiths are given precedence over this narration when their indication conflicts.

We present here only a couple of hadiths from Sahih Bukhari to illustrate this point


Narrated Abu Ma'bad:

(the freed slave of Ibn 'Abbas) Ibn 'Abbas told me, "In the lifetime of the Prophet it was the custom to celebrate Allah's praises aloud after the compulsory congregational prayers." Ibn 'Abbas further said, "When I heard the Dhikr, I would learn that the compulsory congregational prayer had ended." [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 802]


Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:


I used to recognize the completion of the prayer of the Prophet by hearing Takbir. [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 803]

So point to ponder: Do you not think Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) was at these congregational prayers at which the loud dhikr would take place upon completion? So one begins to understand that the purpose (if any) of Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) to remove people from the Masjid must have been due to reasons which collided against Quran and Sunnah, and not congregational loud dhikr which was a common practice during the lifetime of the Holy Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be Upon him).


As you can see, sincere readers should know that my narrations/posts on group dhikr traced back to the prophet himself by 90%. The evidences you brought against group dhikr are that of Umar and Ibn Mashud(RA). So fake narration about ibn Mashud is refuted unless you want me to bring more evidence against it. As for that of Umar(RA), you actually hold it to yourself to find out on what condition did Umar whipped them?. I told you earlier that Sheik Daud Alfa nla narrated the same hadith how Umar whipped those people but I asm not going to tell you why he said he whipped them. Whipping them does not suggest he kicked against group dhikr but something else which you and I should research for academic purposes. Otherwise, it has to be thrown out bcus it is in conflict with many other narrations.



To be continued In Sha Allah.....

[quote author=lexiconkabir post=48733088][/quote]This hadith is a Mawquf hadith , that is , the chain does not go back upto the prophet, but stops at a companion.
This report is inauthentic.

Al-Darimi in the Muqaddima of his Sunan, narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-Mubarak who narrates from `Amr ibn Salima al-Hamadani. This `Amr ibn Yahya ibn `Amr ibn Salama al- Hamadani is da`if( Weak narrator). Ibn Ma`in saw him and said: "his narrations are worth nothing"; Ibn Kharrash: "he is not accepted; al-Dhahabi listed him among those who are weak and whose hadith is not retained in al-Du`afa' wal-Matrukin (p. 212 #3229), Mizan al-I`tidal (3:293), and al-Mughni fil-Du`afa' (2:491); and al-Haythami declared him weak (da`if) in Majma` al-Zawa'id, chapter entitled Bab al-`Ummal `ala al-Sadaqa.

Further, its authenticity was questioned by al-Suyuti in al-Hawi (2:31); al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal-Tahlil as cited by al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25 and 42-43).

Further, it is belied by Imam Ahmad's narration in al-Zuhd from Abu Wa'il who said: "Those who claim that `Abd Allah [= Ibn Mas`ud] forbade dhikr [are wrong]: I never sat with him in any gathering except he made dhikr of Allah in it." Cited by al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir (1:457), al-Suyuti in Natijat al-Fikr fil-Jahri bil-Dhikr in al-Hawi, al-Nabulusi in Jam` al-Asrar (p. 66), al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal- Tahlil as cited in al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25).


In addition, the Prophetic narrations affirming loud dhikr are sahih and innumerable, and definitely take precedence over a mawquf Companion-report even if we were hypothetically to consider it authentic.

Naysayers mention other pseudo-evidence against loud dhikr, all weak, such as the hadith "The best Dhikr is soft, and the best sustenance is what is sufficient," "One silent du`a is seventy times more superior than one loud du`a," and other da`if and maqtu` reports for which we are supposed to leave Qur'an and Sahih evidence and the understanding of the Imams! It is also against many authentic (sahih) hadith narrated in both , Bukhari and Muslim on the virtues and benifits of joining Group Dhikr.



Ibn.'Abbas reported: Dhikr (mentioning the name of Allah) in a loud voice after obligatory prayers was (a common practice) during the lifetime of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) ; and when I heard that I came to know that they (the ) had finished the prayer.

(Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 1211)


Stay Tuned For More Narrations According to Alhu Sunnah. However, I think I should just quote 2 or 3 to avoid lengthy posts unless you drag it. They have proof for group dhikr but everyone twists to suit themselves.

Note, i have edited some of their phrases but i will still provide their link anyways when I am done.

lexiconkabir:
@Empire.e here are your own salafs.


We used to sit in front of Abdullah ibn Masoud's (r.a) house before the Fajr prayer waiting to go with him to the Masjid. Abou Mousa al-Ash`aarie (r.a) came and asked us: 'Did Abu Abdurrahman (i.e. Ibn Masoud) leave yet?'

We answered: 'No.'

So Abou Mousa Al-Ashaari (r.a) sat with us waiting for him. When he came out, we all stood up. Abou Mousa Al Ashaari (r.a) told him:

"Oh, Abu Abdurrahman (i.e Abdullah ibn Masood) ! I recently saw something in the Masjid which I did not approve."

Ibn Masoud then asked: "What was it?"

Abou Mousa said: "You will see it if you stay alive..In the Masjid, I saw a group of people sitting in circles waiting for the Salat. Each circle is led by a person. And every person in these circles carries small stones.

The leader of a circle would say: 'Say 'Allah-u Akbar' a hundred times,' they will say Allah-u Akbar a hundred times; then he says 'Say 'La ilaha Illa Allah', a hundred times" they will say La ilaha ill Allah a hundred times; he they says: 'Say 'Subhan Allah', a hundred times, they will say Subhana Allah a hundred times.

Then Ibn Masoud said: "What did you tell them?"

He (Abu mousa al ashaari) said: 'I didn't say anything, I wanted to wait for your opinion."

Abdullah ibn Masoud (angrily) said: "Could you not order them to count their sins, and assured them of getting their rewards."Then Abdulah ibn Masoud went ahead and we accompanied him. As he approached one of the circles, he said: "What is this that you are doing?"

They said: "Oh! Abu Abdurrahman, these are pebbles to count the number of times we say Allah-u Akbar, La ilaha Ill Allah, and Subhana Allah."


He said: "Count your own sins, and I assure you that you are not going to lose anything of your rewards (Hasanat).. Woe unto you, people of Muhammad, how fast you will be doomed. Those are your Prophet's companions available, these are his clothes not worn out yet, and his pots are not broken yet. I swear by Whom my soul is in His Hands that you are either following a religion that is better than the Prophet's religion or you are opening a door of aberration."

They said: "We swear by Allah, oh, Abu Abdurrahman, that we had no intention other than doing good deeds."

He said: "So what? How many people wanted to do good deeds but never got to do them? The Prophet of Allah has told us about people who recited the Qur'an with no effect on them other than the Qur'an passing through their throats. I swear by Allah, I am almost sure that most of you are from that type of people."

Then he (Ibn Masood) left them.

Amr Ibn Salamah said: "We saw most of the people of those circles fighting us with the Khawarij in the battle of An-Nahrawan."

i.e All those people who wanted to do good deeds by innovating a practise in Islam, were fighting against the sahabas in the battle of nahrawan i.e. they were in the gangs/army of the khawarijites (accursed)



So as you can see, what you are doing now claiming that sins were less in their time compared to us is a fallacious analogy, ibn mas'ud knew it was wrong to prescribe counts by yourself, and he kicked against it, here you are doing exactly what those folks did and you claim its ijtihad?! I pray Allaah opens your eyes – Ameen. As you can see, many scholars of hadith graded it sahih!

Ma Salaam!

This is the reply of Alhu Sunnah Wajamah to the twist above. But first, let me clear something to you. Whether it is GROUP DHIKR(loud voice) or GATHERING OF KNOWLEDGE in the mosque, both can be disturbing inside masjid. It is just a matter of adhab is the reason they condemned it. It is not even a matter of Sufi or Salafi. Classical and contemporary scholars have said that it may disturb people who come to offfer salat or want to make their dhikr silently. I can provide evidence of this from earlier salafi scholars. That was the reason. Sheik Imran Hussein gave the same reason few years ago. It is common sense. But far as I am concern, you dont even know me personally. I am a private person. I have said this here many times. The last time i did group dhirk was 20yrs ago and even back then, it was only within family and once at masjid during Mawlud. And the gathering was both KNOWLEDGE and DHIKR. I am only defending the obvious and not specific group or people.

Here is Alhu Sunnah's response to the narration above.


Stay Tuned.....

^ it is true you did not clearly or necessarily deny its usage but the way you went about it in this thread shows otherwise until you later clarified yourself. You did not clear yourself in the beginning.
https://www.nairaland.com/3295180/lets-talk-alfa-fulan-really

Plus how you denied the phrase in 18:39 is a cure even though you out the word in my mouth. But i believe it can bcus Qur'an is medicine and healing but you are looking for specific hadith that said so. It is alright.

I am really discouraged by the bans. It confuses me and make the whole thing boring. I will only address one at a time from now on as time permits.

Thank you sissie.

@lexiconkabir, that's my post above your last post that got me banned 3x. So it shows i was not copying and pasting from internet as you alleged. It was my reply to contact17.

I was going to give up if it was not restored.

Rossy99:
i av neva leave my chores for him to do,d only chores i expect him to do is sweep d parlour whr he sleep,wash dishes or fetch water which he hardly does.u said if i sweep he wud feel guilty conscience,this one doesn't,he wud lift his leg for me to sweep nd adjust well,wen i was preg,he wud b watching me fetch water nd d next day he wud use d water to bath not until i warn him lik 3tym b4 he stop using water i fetch to bath

I don't think you tell us who the guy is to your husband. Some people raised concern that if he's from your side you won't complain. Is he your husband relative or his friend?.

Seriously i can understand your pain. I would feel shy if i was him really to be honest. Looks like he has no shame or what. Anyways, if he's your relative you would most likely keep quiet like your husband is doing, correct?

I have always have hard time getting your point bcus of the way you quote me. So i might missed some of your post

Contact17:
Brother Em.piree please go back and read!

You made many accusations you ween't able to defend and then refused to provide evidence for your statements.

You claimed that the Prophet and sahabas only used surah Al- Fathia as healing yet you didn't provide evidence for it.

Obviously, i wouldn't make this statement. unless i mistyped. You most likely misunderstood it. All i can say is provide the link where i said ONLY. Only is the key word here. I am 100% sure you misunderstood what i said. Until you provide where i said it, i wont worry myself.

You claimed that the Prophet didn't ask the sahabas to recite surah Yasin a lot because it would inconvinience them yet you didnt provide your evidence for it

I dont know how else to make you understand this. But truly, I enjoy both of bcus you make me think. Now let me explain myself again. I heard good intention when i said this earlier. What i meant is IF prophet(saw) had recommended reciting Yasin 200x for say for instance, just to ask Allah for FORGIVENESS, it would have been inconvenience for the Sahaba. because reciting this much is just too much for people. Prophet is prophet of rahman. Thats why i said he could not have recommended that much. It doesnt mean a muslim cant recite that much. It is up to individual. Now , if i do, it is bid'a?. You and the brother said yes. For me, it is no bcus Yasin the the word of Allah. It is the same with Taraweeh. Prophet(saw) did not want to place burden on muslims, thats why he stopped praying in congregation with them so that it is not made obligatory. But that doesnt mean we cant pray taraweeh or that it is bid'a to do so. Get the point?

You claimed that following the prophet would mean not seeking medical treatment yet you didn't provide your evidences whilst I provided mine.

I dont understand this at all. You understood yourself, i guess Maybe you should quote where i said this so that i can understand?

You claimed that the sahabas wouldn't have accepted Islam or would have left Islam if the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) had told them to recite surah Yasin 200 times they would have left it

I dont know how you think. Anyways, refer to my first quote up there. This is very simple thing and i dont know how you misunderstood it. It simply means the prophet(saw) would not want to placed burden on them OTHERWISE, they would have been bored to recite that much.

You made accusations against me that I denied a hadith a where the prophet approved of reciting Al- fathia for ruqyah as I didn't you haven't provided evidence.

Please quote my words so i can understand what you referring to.

Once again you claimed I accused you of being mischievous regarding group dkhir whereas I didn't. My last post was in the morning

Maybe when i said 'you' doesnt necessarily mean you Mrs contact I dey gbadun you ma'am You make me think. It seems you dont have problems with group dhikr. But your brother lexicon provided a hadith with isnad reaching one sahaba that group dhikr is nonsense. Go back up and read his post. And i have quoted hadith of people making dhikr are called mad people (mischievous) which is what either you or lexicon called me. So, yes, if I am MAD man for making dhikr or group dhikr or supporting is make me a MAD MAN, then, I am a MAD MAN

Dragnnet also called me majnun sometimes ago. and i showed him the hadith. Since then, he disappeared from NL. Newmans did the same thing by calling waliy of Allah Mad people. I showed him evidence that prophet (saw) said those who called them mad are hypocrites. I didnt call them hypocrites Rosulullah(saw) did.

Not once did you answer any of the questions I raised or provide evidence to back up your claims.[/b]

Maybe you should start your questions all over again. It was difficult for me to answer you earlier cus you didnt quote me properly. But it looks like you getting used to NL now

Why do you go about making accusations without evidence or proofs?

Bring it on and let me see pls. I like to explain maself

I am starting to see you as a deceitful fellow and I find it difficult to take you serious. I never for once denied that herbs are a form of medication ( for someone who knows pharmacology, it would be ignorant of me to do so). I always maintained that what I was against was innovation.

No no no. i will NOT and will never accept this. You said in the other thread that herbs is for herbalist and you brought definition of herbalist from dictionary that it is for herbalist while i provided evidence of herbs from Qur'an and hadith. Dont get me started again.


This is what you said,

Contact17:
For those who care to know.

herbalist -a dealer in medicinal herbs

Alfa- word for a Muslim scholar (and occasionally any Muslim) not just in Yorubaland but in Nupeland, Borgu, Igalaland, Ebiraland,

Therefore going from that, if someone specializes in using herbs to cure illness, shouldnt be using the title of an Alfa. Alfas aren’t specific to curing illnesses.

So that's that you said ^^^

If you want me to posts evidences (to prove your accusations), I have no problem posting them.

Please do so that i can set my record straight. This Nairaland is in itself "encyclopedia nigeria" so that I can correct myself.

I notice you and lexicon are backing down on the issue of herbs after i put pressure on you with evidences from KITAB & SUNNAH. Our readers can go to you thread for details. Case close on HERBS.

As for Umar(RA) whipping gathering of Dhikr, you are not the first to quote that. I am not unaware of it. It was quoted by a Nigerian sufi Sheik Daud Abdul Majid Eleha (Alfa Nla) and I believe the hadith has more to it than meet the eye. It has broad context. All i need is TIME to get them out for our readers.

^^^

"guided", "misguided" have always been weapons used to determine who is on the right path and who is not. I see how they twisted Umar and Ibn Abass and Ibn Moshood (RA). And I can also see you trying to downplay hadith i brought fourth. Dont worry. I am not going to allow that. Besides, you left out CLEAR hadith earlier about Angels looking for the gatherings and assemblies of dhikr. I can sense you trying to downplay any hadith i bring fourth in the future as "tortured" to conform with my ideas. I can say the same about yours. Dont worry.

I also see you quoted hadith saying that sahaba have no knowledge of any of them doing group dhikr. That's a lie. I will proof they were. The least you can say is it is "Da'if". Far as I am concern, those who believe not in group dhikr have manipulated their hadith. Those who believe in group dhikr have also hold on to ahadith that support their view. Hence, it is not your duty to determine who is guided or misguided because they do not force it down your throat to join their group. They have evidence for "group dhikr". And I shall start bringing them up slowly. But i need to reply the sister cus hers is long due.

Okay, i have to be careful not to get banned again. Anytime i get banned, i lost interest to go further. I just leave everything as it is. I am not going to edit my reply to sister contact17. Thank God I was able to save it elsewhere before the ban.

Also, pls note that i dont hate either of you. This is educating ourselves. I believe that knowledge is NOT restricted to a sect. It is very important for me to post evidences on this issue. I have lots and lots of evidences in the kitab and Sunnah against you too but the ban really discouraged me a lot. There are many muslims here reading our convos. Some of them share my thought but they wont speak out for fear of being tagged. I understand that. I thank Allah for giving courage to do this. I cant keep quiet while Sunnah practices are being considered bid'a.

So I am going proof to both of you and your likes evidence of COUNTS, evidence of REWARDS, evidence of using BEADS or ROSARY. And evidence of GROUP DHIKR(loud/silence). These evidences are tracked back to the prophet himself(SAW) by 80%. I advice you to please be patient and not put forward your counterclaims until I am done. This way, i dont miss any of your questions, allegations etc.

I just have to do this bcus I dislike this sect movement discouraging Muslims from doing and that without knowledge.

Thank You

This was my reply yesterday to the sister before i was banned. STOP condemning what you don't understand.



I have always have hard time getting your point bcus of the way you quote me. So i might missed some of your post

Contact17:
Brother Em.piree please go back and read!

You made many accusations you ween't able to defend and then refused to provide evidence for your statements.

[b]You claimed that the Prophet and sahabas only used surah Al- Fathia as healing yet you didn't provide evidence for it.

Obviously, i wouldn't make this statement. unless i mistyped. You most likely misunderstood it. All i can say is provide the link where i said ONLY. Only is the key word here. I am 100% sure you misunderstood what i said. Until you provide where i said it, i wont worry myself.

You claimed that the Prophet didn't ask the sahabas to recite surah Yasin a lot because it would inconvinience them yet you didnt provide your evidence for it

I dont know how else to make you understand this. But truly, I enjoy both of bcus you make me think. Now let me explain myself again. I heard good intention when i said this earlier. What i meant is IF prophet(saw) had recommended reciting Yasin 200x for say for instance, just to ask Allah for FORGIVENESS, it would have been inconvenience for the Sahaba. because reciting this much is just too much for people. Prophet is prophet of rahman. Thats why i said he could not have recommended that much. It doesnt mean a muslim cant recite that much. It is up to individual. Now , if i do, it is bid'a?. You and the brother said yes. For me, it is no bcus Yasin the the word of Allah. It is the same with Taraweeh. Prophet(saw) did not want to place burden on muslims, thats why he stopped praying in congregation with them so that it is not made obligatory. But that doesnt mean we cant pray taraweeh or that it is bid'a to do so. Get the point?

You claimed that following the prophet would mean not seeking medical treatment yet you didn't provide your evidences whilst I provided mine.

I dont understand this at all. You understood yourself, i guess Maybe you should quote where i said this so that i can understand?

You claimed that the sahabas wouldn't have accepted Islam or would have left Islam if the prophet (peace and blessing be upon him) had told them to recite surah Yasin 200 times they would have left it

I dont know how you think. Anyways, refer to my first quote up there. This is very simple thing and i dont know how you misunderstood it. It simply means the prophet(saw) would not want to placed burden on them OTHERWISE, they would have been bored to recite that much.

You made accusations against me that I denied a hadith a where the prophet approved of reciting Al- fathia for ruqyah as I didn't you haven't provided evidence.

quote my words please so i can understand what you refering to.

Once again you claimed I accused you of being mischievous regarding group dkhir whereas I didn't. My last post was in the morning

Maybe when i said 'you' doesnt necessarily mean you Mrs contact I dey gbadun you ma'am You making me think. It seems you dont have problems with group dhikr. But your brother lexicon provided a hadith with isnad reaching one sahaba that group dhikr is nonsense. Go back up and read his post. And i have quoted hadith of people making dhikr are called mad people (mischievous) which is what either you or lexicon called me. SO, yes, if I am MAD man for making dhikr or group dhikr or supporting is make me a MAD MAN, then, I am a MAD MAN

Dragnet also called me majnun sometimes ago. and i showed him the hadith. Since then, he disappeared from NL. Newmans did the same thing by calling waliy of Allah Mad people. I showed him evidence that prophet (saw) those who called them mad are hypocrites. I didnt call them hypocrites RAsulullah(saw) did.

Not once did you answer any of the questions I raised or provide evidence to back up your claims.[/b]

Maybe you should startyour questions all over agian. It ws difficult for me to answer you earlier cus you didnt quote me properly. But it looks like you getting used to NL now

Why do you go about making accusations without evidence or proofs?

Bring it on and let me see pls. I like to explain maself

I am starting to see you as a deceitful fellow and I find it difficult to take you serious. I never for once denied that herbs are a form of medication ( for someone who knows pharmacology, it would be ignorant of me to do so). I always maintained that what I was against was innovation.

No no no. i will NOT and will NEVer accept this. You said in the other thread that herbs is for herbalist and you brought definition of herbalist from dictionary that it is for herbalist while i provided evidence of herbs from Qur'an. Dont get me started again.


This is what yiu said,

Contact17:
For those who care to know.

herbalist -a dealer in medicinal herbs

Alfa- word for a Muslim scholar (and occasionally any Muslim) not just in Yorubaland but in Nupeland, Borgu, Igalaland, Ebiraland,

Therefore going from that, if someone specializes in using herbs to cure illness, shouldnt be using the title of an Alfa. Alfas aren’t specific to curing illnesses.

If you want me to posts evidences (to prove your accusations), I have no problem posting them.

Please do so that i can set my record straight. This Nairaland is in itself "encyclopedia nigeria" so thati can correct myself

lexiconkabir:
You see that? Thats the exact problem, was right about you, your aim is to win a debate and literally close your mind to anything i have to say, wonder why it took me long to reply your post?

Contact17:
Shioor!!!

"And the servants of the Most Merciful are those who walk upon the earth easily, and when the ignorant address them, they say, peace" [25;63]

Salam

Yes, you have to kind of give up bcus you came up with condemning Sunnah despite showing you EVIDENCES from primary sources of Islam. In that case, I am duty bound to expose what you people trying to hide and making islam feels like dump dump religion. In that case, i can't retreat until i expose you. This is not about ego or winning. You keep saying that for emotional purposes. You have no right condemn what Allah and His messenger did not. You both denied ayat of Allah over and over again despite showing you CLEAR evidences. So this is not about winning. It is about FACTS.

You BOTH denied AYat of Allah and SUnnah of using HERBS. YOu attributed it to BABALAWO. I exposed you over and over until you both stylishly admitted. Readers can go through our timeline and read them

@lexicon and contact17, sorry, I am coming back for you

I was banned after replying Mrs contact. So I am Mr. "no retreat...no surrender". I just discovered the freaking robot removed its freaking shackles from my wrists

I dey come i dey come