₦airaland Forum

As a Muslim you should give him benefit of the doubt. That's justice. You know what people can do with photos shops these days. You know how they can use power of tech to place your head on a gay man and claim is you.

Same with voice. In the west they have used manipulated audio voice to convict people. Same with WWE, where a lady's voice was manipulated. So you owe it to yourself to investigate this before judgement.

When I heard this tape (there are more of them actually), I left a comment on YouTube condemning him. Not long after that, someone replied me to becareful or rebuked up loader to be careful. It was after that I heard from the horse''s mouth himself.

lexiconkabir:
Yeah very serious, although Empiree said it's not him, i find it hard to believe tho.

abeg, no lie about me faar. I didn't say it is not him. I said he (sheik habib) said.

Besides, the only justice you can do is to listen to him directly on the issue. I really don't understand how to describe what he said. But he basically said something like copy paste and stuff. I'm not here to defend him. I'm here to let you know he addressed the issue.

Killing Them

Some Nigerian scholars have raised concerns over Jalabi practice. Most of their criticisms only deal with negative side of it. They have gone as far as issuing FATWA to kill those people citing classical and medieval scholars. Although these scholars or to be specific, a scholar in particular that I personally listened to on this subject, in his lecture titled "Bid'a" , said they should be killed.

He said this as the ONLY way to curb Magic, Shirk and Kufr in Yorubaland. Although his statement or verdict goes beyond just jalabi. He mostly addressed this practice whether it is done by Muslims, christians or the local religion known as herbalists. He cited many evidences of magic prevalent in the land attacking innocent people by shir or witchcraft. That many people suffering some sorts of spiritual attack today are as a result of this practice. His evidence is when herbalist is broke, he spreads his evil in the air to attack people physically or spiritually and in return, he would be consulted. This is no doubt a good point he raised. It is the same as auto mechanic who prays someone's car breaks down. That's the picture.

He also cited Saudi as a case study that anyone caught with magic etc are beheaded. That killing them kills evil completely in the society. This is Nigeria and especially Yorubaland which is relatively peaceful. Is killing Jalabi people an option?.


What is JALABI?

Jalabi is an extant historical phenomenon with strong socio-religious impacts in Yorubaland, south-western part of Nigeria. It is among the preparatory Dawah strategies devised by the Yoruba Ulama following the general mainstream Africa to condition the minds of the indigenous people for the acceptance of Islam. This strategy is reflected in certain socio-religious services rendered to the clients, which include, but not limited to, spiritual consultation and healing, such as petitionary Dua (prayer), divination through sand-cutting, rosary selection, charm-making, and an act of officiating at various religious functions. In view of its historicity, the framework of this research paper revolves around three stages identified to have been aligned with the evolution of Jalabi, viz. Dawah, which marked its initial stage, livelihood into which it had evolved over the course of time, and which, in turn, had predisposed it to the third stage, namely syncretism.

Triangulation method will be adopted for qualitative data collection, such as interviews, personal observation, and classified manuscript collections, and will be interpretively and critically analyzed to enhance the veracity of the research findings. The orality of the Yoruba culture has greatly influenced the researcher’s decision to seek data beyond the written words in order to give this long-standing phenomenon its due of study and to help understand the many dimensions it has assumed over time, as well as its both positive and adverse effects on the socio-religious live of the Yoruba people of Nigeria. ~ Prof. Dr. Hassan Ahmad Ibrahim

This is a brief description of the practice. We see clearly that its essence is Dawah (Islamic propagation) and medicine. It is the same basic essence in the Western world. They propagate their ideal and healthcare practices. This is also the reason everyone wants to go their for "medical checkup" to get the best medicare. And they dont care to spend millions of naira either by donations, hard earned money or sponsors.


To be continue.....in sha Allah

walaikum salaam.

Noted...

there is ongoing project but is yet to reach wiring. Maybe that's next. I don't know. Fact is don't be surprised if someone calls you but it is never gonna be me directly.

Besides, i think you need to showcase your biz here, like your previous completed projects.

Judging A Muslim's Aqeedah Because Of Their Dress


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2A8Akb1-s0

Exactly my point all the time. We have reduced Islam, where we take "correct knowledge and aqeeda" from, to HoW WE LOOK. This is the mentality going on right now and on NL. If you mention Asian and caribbean Shuyukh, you get crazy look like, 'that arena is full of bunch of "mushrik and bidat"'. Bunch of "doggy aqeeda". Meanwhile, the word, AQEEDA itself is bid'a.

It doesn't make sense.


albaqir, lexiconkabir hah, rilwon contact17

This thread re-surfaced again. Hum. Anyone knows if the sister (OP) is okay now?

.

The ulama should first educate their congregation on the sunnah method of Adhkar after salah and gradually inform them that the congregational dua is not compulsory and was not practised at the time of Rasulullah (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam). Get the congregation to first understand that congregational dua is mubah and not compulsory. Do not condemn the practice without educating the congregation. This will lead to fitna.


Some Have Also Condemned Raising Hands in making Du'a and wiping face with it. I see this being propagated as well. But as always, i am not bulge. The Mufti where I usually pray would tell us there in nothing in the Sunna saying to raise hands. He should rather say he doesnt know. They killing Sunnah every time in the name of Bi'd'a.


Here we have some reports


Raising the hands in dua:


باب ‏ ‏رفع الأيدي في الدعاء ‏ ‏وقال ‏ ‏أبو موسى الأشعري ‏ ‏دعا النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏ثم رفع يديه ورأيت بياض إبطيه

Abu Musa Ashari (RA) narrated that the Prophet (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) made a dua, and I saw him raise his hands, until I could see the whiteness of his armpits. (Bukhari)


وقال ‏ ‏ابن عمر ‏ ‏رفع النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏يديه وقال اللهم إني أبرأ إليك مما صنع ‏ ‏خالد

Ibn Umar (RA) narrated that the Prophet (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) raised his hands and said, "O Allah! I ask your protection for what Khalid has done". (Bukhari)



قال أبو عبد الله ‏ ‏وقال ‏ ‏الأويسي ‏ ‏حدثني ‏ ‏محمد بن جعفر ‏ ‏عن ‏ ‏يحيى بن سعيد ‏ ‏وشريك ‏ ‏سمعا ‏ ‏أنسا ‏ ‏عن النبي ‏ ‏صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ ‏رفع يديه حتى رأيت بياض إبطيه ‏

Anas (RA) also narrated that the Prophet (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) raised his hands until I saw the whiteness of his armpits. (Bukhari)



Verdict:

Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (RA) said, "As of Prophet (Sallaho Alaihe Wassallam) raising his hands in dua, then this has been narrated in so many Ahadeeth which cannot be counted. (Arusi, p212)



Wiping the hands on the face after dua:


Narration of Umar Bin Khattab (RA) in Tirmidhi:
حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏أَبُو مُوسَى مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ‏ ‏وَإِبْرَاهِيمُ بْنُ يَعْقُوبَ ‏ ‏وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ ‏ ‏قَالُوا حَدَّثَنَا ‏ ‏حَمَّادُ بْنُ عِيسَى الْجُهَنِيُّ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏حَنْظَلَةَ بْنِ أَبِي سُفْيَانَ الْجُمَحِيِّ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏سَالِمِ بْنِ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏أَبِيهِ ‏ ‏عَنْ ‏ ‏عُمَرَ بْنِ الْخَطَّابِ ‏ ‏رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ ‏ ‏قَالَ ‏كَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ ‏ ‏صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ ‏ ‏إِذَا رَفَعَ يَدَيْهِ فِي الدُّعَاءِ لَمْ يَحُطَّهُمَا حَتَّى يَمْسَحَ بِهِمَا وَجْهَهُ ‏

Musaa Muhammad ibn Al-Muthannaa and Ibraahim ibn Ya’qub and more than one stating that Hammaad ibn ‘Eesaa Al-Juhani narrated to us from Hanthalah ibn Abi Sufyaan Al-Jumahiy from Saalim ibn Abdullah from his father (Abdullah ibn Umar) from Umar ibn Al-Khattab (radhiya Allahu ‘Anhu) who said that Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wa sallam) when raising his hands in du’aa, would not put them down until he had wiped his face with them.



Verdict of Imam Tirmidhi (RA):


قَالَ ‏ ‏مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْمُثَنَّى ‏ ‏فِي حَدِيثِهِ ‏ ‏لَمْ يَرُدَّهُمَا حَتَّى يَمْسَحَ بِهِمَا وَجْهَهُ ‏ ‏قَالَ ‏ ‏أَبُو عِيسَى ‏ ‏هَذَا ‏ ‏حَدِيثٌ صَحِيحٌ غَرِيبٌ ‏ ‏لَا نَعْرِفُهُ إِلَّا مِنْ حَدِيثِ ‏ ‏حَمَّادِ بْنِ عِيسَى ‏ ‏وَقَدْ تَفَرَّدَ بِهِ وَهُوَ قَلِيلُ الْحَدِيثِ وَقَدْ حَدَّثَ عَنْهُ النَّاسُ ‏ ‏وَحَنْظَلَةُ بْنُ أَبِي سُفْيَانَ الْجُمَحِيُّ ‏ ‏ثِقَةٌ وَثَّقَهُ ‏ ‏يَحْيَى بْنُ سَعِيدٍ الْقَطَّانُ

At-Tirmithi continues, “This hadith is Sahih ghareeb1, we do not know it save from the hadith of Hammad ibn ‘Eesaa, and he alone narrates this [from Hanthala]. He has few hadith and the people reported from him. And Hanthalah ibn Abi Sufyaan al-Jumahiy is thiqah (highly trustworthy), and he was declared thiqah by Yahyaa ibn Sa’id Al-Qattaan.”

(1) Meaning narrated by one person - as is the nomenclature of the scholars of hadith



Verdict of Al-Hafidh Imam Ibn Hajr Asqalani (RA) in Bulughul Maram:

Al-Hafidh Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani (RA), Author of the one of the most trusted commentaries of Saheeh Bukhari narrates this Hadeeth in Bulughul Maram and then writes:

وَلَهُ شَوَاهِدُ مِنْهَا:

There are other traditions which support this narration, of which are:

حَدِيثُ اِبْنِ عَبَّاسٍ: عَنْ أَبِي دَاوُدَ . وَمَجْمُوعُهَا يَقْتَضِي أَنَّهُ حَدِيثٌ حَسَنٌ .

The Hadeeth narrated by Ibn Abbas (RA) related by Abi Dawud and others. Put together, they confirm that it (this Hadeeth) is Hasan.


Verdict of Shawkani (RA) in Nawlul Awtaar:

Imam Shawkani (RA) accepts this narration as Hasan in Mawlul Awtaar


But the mufti who claimed he studied in Saudi Arabia said raising hands and wiping face in du'a is tradition of customs of some muslims and should be avoided. I just dey shake my head as he speaks. I dont challenge anyone where i pray. I simply say to myself "it is your opinion".

It Almost caused Problems few years ago in the US. Non-muslims would just fold their arms and watch us destroy ourselves. Read the link below.

http://www.alifta.net/Fatawa/FatawaChapters.aspx?languagename=en&View=Page&PageID=12818&PageNo=1&BookID=7


It very simple. Those who dont think congregational du'a or dhikr is appropriate should simply [size=20pt]STOP[/size] causing trouble trying to false everyone to accept their views. Otherwise, they will create more evil than good. If they are not invited in the group of dhikr they should simply ignore. If they happen to come uninvited, they either remain silent rather than should "bid'a". If they should start shouting, leader of the group have every right to ship them out of the arena faster than federal express bcus they are agent of fitna.

I was shocked too when i heard few weeks ago. I couldn't believe a man in such a powerful position could curse fellow muslim like that. Unmmm, I said before i watched many of his lectures he made in ramadan. While i was watching one of them in less than 2 weeks ago, he addressed the accusation and denied it was him. I cant really figure out which of his series he addressed this issue.

He said something like his voice was manipulated and stuff.

Either way, it is so so so sad where muslims are heading today over very slight argument or misunderstanding. You might need to just watch all his series (which i doubt you) to find out where he addressed the issue. I cant possibly figure it out. One thing i know for sure is he addressed the issue. I watched the video myself.

[size=15pt]Solution To Jalabi & Its Malpractices:[/size]

To kill them and eradicate the practice COMPLETELY or,

Train them and properly coordinate the practice?

Your opinion matters. Give your thoughts

I Shall In Sha Allah return here as time permits to make my contribution

What is it with Seun recent "affection" for religion, especially islam?. He has opened at least three threads within close range seeking some answers from Muslims. Did he have a dream about Islam or what?. I even saw him recommended du'a for someone in islam section.

Good job bro.

^^

Oh well, if mountain no go comot see Muhammad, Muhammad go visit the mountain ke

Thread yi reee. Re-surfaced again, uhh

lanrexlan:
Na Behind people dey Ikoyi na


The same Theif Shina Rambo? Is there a link to the movie? My dad once had an encounter with him at the seme border, one kind of ruthless dude.

I am only giving you the last clip which is 12B. Still it never finished bcus the ruthless dude never die. He woke up again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQ5AOeO4OII

He showed no mercy at all. He was only merciful ONLY to his own advantage. Would love to hear your dad's encounters with him.. That must be some hell of a meeting. His real live interviews triggered to watch his make believe story. He is a pastor now in real world.

[quote author=lanrexlan post=48891261][/quote]U need to watch the "return of shina rambo". That is crazy from beginning to end. No dull moment at all. It is killings killings killings and killings. My heart bleeds.

.....

^^^^

Lol......

You said Op meant supplication, but that has been deemed bid'a by some peopple as well. Dont worry, slowly but surely, they will take away Islam from people in the name of "INNOVATION".


Anyways, this is another version of the hadith you quoted above



1450. Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: Mu`awiyah (May Allah be pleased with him) came to an assembly in the mosque and asked them: “What has made you sit together?” They replied, “We are sitting here to remember Allah.” He said, “I adjure you by Allah to tell me whether nothing else has made you to sit together.” They replied: “By Allah! We are sitting only to remember Allah.” Then he said, “I did not adjure you because I suspected you. No one of my rank in the eyes of the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) is the narrator of so few traditions as I am. The fact is that the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) went out to a circle of his Companions and said, `What has made you sit there?‘ When they replied that they are sitting together to remember Allah and to praise Him for guiding them to Islam and bestowing favours on them, he (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, `I adjure you by Allah to tell me that nothing else has made you sit together.’ On their reply that there was certainly no other purpose, he (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, `I did not adjure you because I suspected you, but Jibril (Gabriel) came to me and told me that Allah was talking proudly of you to the angels.”’

[Muslim].


Both version are correct. Hence, it is telling us that neither grup is bid'a or innovation. Qurtubi said, "Gatherings of dhikr are the gatherings for knowledge

No one has the right to condemn "group dhikr". No one has the right or monopoly to say it is bid'a unless you want to follow a sheik blindly because he said so which is "taqlid"

Dhikr of Allah is the most excellent act of Allah's servants and is stressed over a hundred times in the Holy Qur'an. It is the most praiseworthy work to earn Allah's pleasure, the most effective weapon to overcome the enemy, and the most deserving of deeds in reward.

It is the flag of Islam, the polish of hearts, the essence of the science of faith, the immunization against hypocrisy, the head of worship, and the key of all success.[size=15pt]There are no restrictions on the modality, frequency, or timing of dhikr whatsoever. The restrictions on modality pertain to certain specific obligatory acts which are not the issue here, such as Salat.[/size]

The Shari'a is clear and everyone knows what they have to do. [size=17pt]Indeed, the Prophet said that the People of Paradise will only regret one thing: not having made enough dhikr in the world![/size] Are not those who are making up reasons to discourage others from making dhikr afraid of Allah in this tremendous matter?


People should not allow anybody to come with copus ideology telling them congregational du'a or group dhikr is bid'a in any form. Allah and His messenger did not place restriction on this beautiful practice. Without dhikr, we are done like dinner. Do dhikr as much as you want, in group with your family, in gathering with friends, and even with enemies. There are no restrictions in making dhikr group or not. Even some among them are condeming dhikr on the go. But they are yet to come out from their hijab to say that. It is only a matter of time. before they condemn that as well. This is how they start.

Forget about conspiracy surrounding BH. The moment muslims return to dhikr Allah, which is ONLY visibly possible in gathering or group or assemblies, I bear Allah witness, Boko boys will be history.

Return To Allah's Path People. Group dhikr is NOT NOT NOT innovation. Such statement is foreign and outlandish amongst the best of Ulama worldwide. The ideology only emerged from a SPECIFIC region of the world


Imam Qurtubi said, "Gatherings of dhikr are the gatherings for knowledge......"

[size=15pt]Gathering Of Dhikr And Knowledge Are Both Valid And Sunnatic[/size]

Knowledge Is Too Much Today But There Is No Wisdom. It Is Because Every Has Knowledge Today Is The Reason We Will All Find Evidence For Whatever We Want To Get What We Want. Not Once Did Prophet (salla Allahu Alaiy Wasalam) Frown Upon GROUP DHIKR. And Of Course, Gathering Of Knowledge Is Highly Sunnatic. But To Say Groups or Gatherings or Assemblies or Congregation Of Dhikr Is Bid'a, That In Itself Is Bid'a For Rejecting The Sunnah. Many Of The Tafsir Held In Nigerian, In Ramadhan or Not, Sufis or Not Are Actually That of Knowledge with Some Brief Dhikr. Both Valid



The Excellence of Gathering in which Allah is Remembered


Imam Al-Nawawi’s Riyad-us-Saliheen in Chapter 247 of his book "The Excellence of Gathering in which Allah is Remembered" writes:



Allah, the Exalted, says:

“And keep yourself (O Muhammad (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam)) patiently with those who call on their Rubb (i.e., your companions who remember their Rubb with glorification, praising in prayers, and other righteous deeds) morning and afternoon, seeking His Face; and let not your eyes overlook them.” (18:28)



1447. Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, “Allah, the Exalted, has teams of angels who go about on the roads seeking those who remember Allah. When they find some people remembering Allah they call to one another and say, `Come to what you are looking for;’ and they surround them with their wings till the space between them and the lowest sky is fully covered. Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, asks them (although He is best informed about every thing): `What are my slave saying?’ They say: `They are glorifying Your Tasbih, Tahmid, Takbir, Tamjid, (i.e., they were declaring Your Perfectness, praising, remembering the Greatness and Majesty of Allah).’ He asks: `Have they seen Me?’ They reply, `No, indeed, they have not seen You.’ He asks: `How would they act if they were to see Me?’ Thereupon they reply: `If they were to see You, they would engage more earnestly in worshipping and glorifying You and would extol You more.’ He would say: `What do they beg of Me?’ They say, `They beg You for Your Jannah.’ Allah says, `Have they seen My Jannah?’ They say, `No, our Rubb.’ He says: `How would they act if they were to see My Jannah?’ They reply, `Were they to see it, they would more intensely eager for it.’ They (the angels) say, `They seek Your Protection.’ He asks, `Against what do they seek My Protection?’ They (the angels) say, `Our Rubb, from the fire of Hell.’ (He, the Rubb) says, `Have they seen the fire of Hell?’ They say, `No. By Your Honour, they have not seen it.’ He says: `How would they act if they were to see My Fire?’ They say: `If they were to see it, they would more earnest in being away from it and fearing it. They beg of Your forgiveness.’ He says: `I call you to witness that I hereby grant pardon to them and confer upon them what they ask for; and grant them protection against what they seek protection from.’ One of the angels says: `Our Rubb, there is amongst them such and such slave who does not belong to the assembly of those who are participating in Your remembrance. He passed by them and sat down with them.’ He says: `I also grant him pardon because they are the people by virtue of whom their associates will not be unfortunate‘.” [Al-Bukhari and Muslim].


In the above hadith is the mentions of dhikr(remembrance of Allah). It does not mention knowledge or that the Malaikat roaming seeking for people of knowledge. It says "people of dhikr". I read article yesterday trying to twist the context but Alhamdulilah, the author agrees it gathering of dhikr but he somehow twist that if the gathering or group of dhikr is not beneficial for knowledge, then, it is irrelevant. Obviously, that is his opinion.

Our daily salat are technically gathering of dhikr. But isn't knowledge gain therein?. Yes, of course. 99% muslims learned how to pray through practical experience NOT text. None of us picked up book of Bukhari to read salat procedure save few. It is ONLY through practical experience we get the picture.



(The narration in Muslim is also the same with minor changes in wordings).


1448. Abu Hurairah and Abu Sa`id Al-Khudri (May Allah be pleased with them) reported: The Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ’alayhi wa sallam) said, [size=13pt]“When a group of people assemble for the remembrance of Allah[/size], the angels surround them (with their wings), (Allah’s) mercy envelops them, Sakinah, or tranquillity descends upon them and Allah makes a mention of them before those who are near Him.” [Muslim].

Prophet(saw) is not deficient in the use of arabic word. In this hadith also is "gathering, group, congregation or assemblies of dhikr". It is ONLY when we stretch the meaning of dhikr we arrive at knowledge.


Indeed, in the remembrance of Allah you find rest. Once you forgo dhikr, calamities befalls. That's what's going on in Nigeria now. Return To Dhikrullah. Even christians understood this. If someone rejects group of dhikr, it is fine. It is NEVER compulsory. But to say it is innovation?. La la la la.

That's extremism!

Lol.....ikoyi would be better

^

You see the hadith he quoted up there about Ibn Mos'ud [Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 12, Number 802], it doesn't take rocket science to figure out it is "group dhikr" when you go practical. It is easy to read texts and condemn what you want to condemn. But if you go practical, it is clear.

Congregational

Group

Assembly

Gathering


....are all the same meaning. Let's apply the hadith practically. Forget about "he said, she said" for a moment.


Say for instance, lexicon is Imam and the rest of us are behind him. He finishes salat by saying Salam alaikum waramotullah.

Then, everyone of us starts reciting loud dhikr lailaha ila Allah. Theoretically, we are reciting it individually but in practical sense, it's already unison.

Let's analyse what i just said so we know it is already group dhikr. First, with lexicon as imam and we behind him, we already formed a group of assembly.

Second, we all doing dhikr (individually) as intended

Third, it is technically unison.

So "group dhikr" is already formed. There is no way bunch of muslims reciting dhikr individually and loud and saying the same thing without making it unison or almost. This is how Gathering of dhikr is borne. There is nothing "bid'atic" about it. But if you stick to texts, you will always easily find what is bid'a.

Just try to implement the hadith. You will get my point. That's all

Question is, according to distributions of gathering of dhikr or dua in the hadith quoted above, do people even do that these days?. Far as i am concern, i dont see any mosques do that either save few. Once Imam finishes salat, everybody stands up and leave. When Imam is making dua, all we hear is commotion i:e worshippers struggling to put on their shoes and we can barely hear imam voice.

So it is not even a matter of bid'a now. it is now a matter of do people really sit down and make congregational dua/dhikr mentioned in the ahadith?. A whole lots of masajid dont.

Op, HAH, do me a favor, try to read the hadith the way you understand it with commentary by the shuyuk. Then, try to make people practice it and let's hear what they say. Will be here in sha Allah for feedback. I can guarantee you the same pple who claim to follow sunnah will call it bid'a. Dont even show them the hadith before you embark on this experiment. Do it for a month.

It is not about joking with religion of Allah. Please stop saying that. By 'joke' meant YOU. I provided evidences and even quoted your own evidence. So this is not about joking with religion. My question stands, since you agreed they were making group dhikr in the masjid when Ibn Mas'd heard,


This is what you said

lexiconkabir:
Yes, or is it not possible? And it was specifically after fardh salaah.

then, I asked you this question and it should have been cleared to you already.

Empiree:
question is, [size=13pt]where you pray[/size], do they make loud dhikr INDIVIDUALLY like SAHABA did?

You did not answer that. I again asked you who are those close to what sahaba did {in this day and age}, aren't they the Sufis?. You did not answer. You deem it bid'a.


Now, I am done here FOR GOOD.


We have long derailed this thread and let's run back to Jabata.

Someone just sent me a voice clip of Jabata's deputy. I am yet to listen to it. It is 20 minutes long.

lexiconkabir:
The narrators that was faulted was [size=14pt]Amr[/size] which by the way ibn ma'in named him as trustworthy, even if we are to agree that Amr is not to be trusted, how bout Qais that narrated the same hadith with little variation? Is he also weak? Did you bother downloading the book i gave you? It was clearly written there "bi isnaadu sahih" dont worry I'll give you screenshot if you are scared to download the book.

Pardon me if the screenshots are not welk arranged, I'm using a phone to type.

Well, regarding the narrator's about the hadith you quote which is located in Sunan of Imam Darimi, "Amr" was the fourth narrator which means, he was the last to hear the hadith. His name is somehow confused with someone else called "Amar". They seemed to realise later he was the same person.

Below is Alhu Sunnah's analysis {this is just a brief}.


We hear this narration so often to try and discourage people to gather together to do congregational dhikr together. But we also find this is the only narration which goes against loud dhikr. However it is weak and unreliable. It has a chain of narration back to Abdullah ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) as the science of narration and hadith works.



Imam Darimi writes it, narrating from:


1. Hakim ibn Mubarak who is the 1st narrator.

2. He says I heard it from Umar bin Yahya – 2nd person in this narration.

3. He says I heard it from my father Yahya – 3rd person in this narration.

4. He says I heard it from Amar bin Salima – 4th person in this narration.


So essentially there are 4 narrators of this narration!


1) Hakim ibn Mubarak


Allamah Dhahabi in his book Nizamul Ihtedal writes, Hakim ul Mubarak used to steal the hadiths.


What it means to steal hadith, is somebody who basically when narrating a hadith omits the person they heard it from but state they heard it from the person prior to that. For example instead of “I heard from Person X who heard from Person Y”, they will say “I heard from Person Y” and omit out Person X. By doing this, the person is stealing the merit of the narration because they wanted there own name in the narration, add credit to it and to show there name was early in the chain of narration.

So in summary, Haakim-ibn-Mubarak who is the first narrator in this Darimi narration (and is also the teacher of Imam Darimi) is known to be a stealer of hadith therefore his reliability and credibility has been brought into question by Allamah Dhahabi.


Permit me to skip 2nd and 3rd narrators as they're not relevant now. Let's jump to the fourth, Amr.



4) Amar (Amr) bin Salima


The fourth narrator who claims to have seen this event of Abdullah Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him), his name is Amar bin Salima. The problem with him is that historically there has been a confusion about who Amar bin Salima is due to there being two person with the same name. One is Amr bin Salima al-Hamadani al Kufi. The other is Amr bin Salma Bin Kharad al Jurni. So there was confusion as to which Amar witnessed the event.

Imam Ibn Abi Hatim says that although historically there has been confusion, but both these Amar are in fact the one person and he is also a weak and unreliable narrator. (Imam Ibn Abi Hatim is an absolute authority of analysing the Chain of Narrations.)


I shall continue investigation on the narrator(s) you quoted if time permits or i may choose to ignore. That depends on if you keep saying GROUP Dhikr (congregational) is bid'a. It should clear to you already especially with evidence of Ibn Masu'd hearing gathering of people making dhikr after obligatory salat. That should open your eyes.

lexiconkabir:
Nowhere did i confirmed that the sahabas did GROUP DHIKR(UNISON) STOP SAYING WHAT I DID NOT SAY! I dont know about the masjid you pray, you dont know if they do dhikr individually as the move since the sunnah permits dhikr while walking, so do no sat what you not sure of.

question is, where you pray, do they make loud dhikr INDIVIDUALLY like SAHABA did where you pray?

lexiconkabir:
Being permissible does not mean it must be done since dhikr can be done both loudly or silently, but if you do it loudly after fardh salaah, then no sin on you, simple.....

Anytime i vornered you, u end up agreeing with me. You funny. Slowly but surely you compromised especially when yu said 'YES' it is dhikr they do in the masjid but yiu only shied away to say it is group. Joke JOke Joke!!!!!

You are yet to give us proof for UNISON GROUP DHIKR ON EIDS LIKE ITS BEEN DONE TODAY.

Pardon me, i dont understand u here. I dont know of any UNISON group dhikr other than the way it is done every Eid. Are people gathered on Eid not a group?. Them shouting Allahu Akbar together many times is not UNISON?

Twist again. I dey gbadun you

lexiconkabir:
The narrators that was faulted was Amr which by the way ibn ma'in named him as trustworthy, even if we are to agree that Amr is not to be trusted, how bout Qais that narrated the same hadith with little variation? Is he also weak? Did you bother downloading the book i gave you? It was clearly written there "bi isnaadu sahih" dont worry I'll give you screenshot if you are scared to download the book.

Pardon me if the screenshots are not welk arranged, I'm using a phone to type.

Good. This is what i was saying yesterday that if you drag it, i wiould bring forward how scholars have faulted their narrations. I will now do that as times permits since you brought it up. I think they are 4 or 5 narrators.

See me soon, In Sha Allah

lexiconkabir:
Yes, or is it not possible? And [size=15pt]it was specifically after fardh salaah[/size].

I pray at masjid with ideology like yours. I NEVER ever seen them do this. Once Imam says "salaam alaikum", everyone stands up and leave. But Sufis encourage to sit down and make dhikr. Again, who are those people close to what Saidina Ibn Masu'd heard them(sahaba) doing the masjid?.

You have said earlier that there was no record of sahaba doing group dhikr. Now I am glad you confirmed they did.

Stop twisting from now on. Many other scholars have accused those scholars you have been quoting as twisting "UNISON GROUP DHIKR". That's why i accused you of same

lexiconkabir:
Yes, or is it not possible? And it was specifically after fardh salaah.

Case is close brother. How many Salafis now do this?. Is that not group in the masjid?. Quiet frankly, there is nothing else to talk about. I am glad you said 'Yes'. That's like in the church where everyone shouts

"Ni Oruko Jeeeeeesu" etc.


Do you shout "La ilaha ila Allah" with others but individually in this day and age now?. I dont see salafis do that.. The people close to doing that are the Sufis. So, i repeat, it is ALL a joke and a twist. If you agree it is dhikr they do in the masjid and rarely we see any of you do that today, that means you have abandoned the SUNNAH. The people close to that are the SUfis. Hence, you have no right to say UNISON group dhikr is bid'a.

If UNISON GROUP DHIKR is SUNNAH on Eids, it is SUNNAH forever. That's the dalil.

Besides, it seems you don't understand my post that you claimed you "refuted" about ibn Masu'd. You said i didnt say anything about it. Maybe you go back to the previous page and re-read. My post confirmed they were making group dhikr but Ibn Mau'd only "kicked against" something which was not specified that they were doing in the dhikr. They just keep talking about "method" or "technique" not recommended by the prophet(SAW) in the dhikr. And i quoted classical scholars on it but you brushed it aside actually.

The ONLY problem with loud group dhikr that both cons and pros agreed upon is that it disturbs those who might come late for salat. All scholars agreed to this. Just wondering they they did not mention this about "group of knowledge"?. They both talk loud.

^^

Actually you did not respond to my post up there regarding explanations given by scholars you posted in your BOLD post. I asked if my understanding of the descriptions by those scholars was correct?.

Let me rephrase it.

It is about Ibn Masu'd(RA) when he heard loud dhikr gathering in the masjid after salat. The scholar you posted confirmed it is dhikr but shied from saying it is "group" of dhikr. What I understood from their statements is everyone in the masjid made loud dhikr INDIVIDUALLY, correct?