₦airaland Forum

Shawl001:
. No you re not..y are a church goer...(Sorry to say that you). You've proven to me that, U̶̲̥̅̊ re ignorant øƒ certain things... Christ's death on the cross has wiped off all sins in the world.. What's left now is ƒσя us to abide in Him..(John15:1-5)....speaks more. Sin is powerless. Its been rendered powerless by Jesus, cos' Jesus fulfilled the whole Law. (1Pet.2:22) says, Jesus was without sin, no guile was found in His mouth. He was righteous all through till His death. Now, He has made us righteousness øƒ God. We are no longer condemned...(Romans8:1).. So, as a child øƒ God, you re always right with God..U̶̲̥̅̊ can come to His presence any time. That's the privilege we have In Jesus.....#TeamHeaven#

Apology accepted, it doesn't matter what matters is that you are a Christian who abides in Him through living your life in accordance with His Teachings without which your sins remain.
Give thanks to God that He sent Him to show us how to overcome temptation and consequently sin thereby making sin (which had a strong hold on us) powerless over us.
Strive to abide in Him in your daily life so that you can emerge victorious (Revelation 7:14)out of great tribulation, (consequently it invariably means you) have washed your robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Remain blessed.

An2elect2:
Excuse me pls, are you saying we have a part to play in the salvation of our souls? the completed work of Christ on the cross is not enough? pls come again.

Sorry I've been away.

Actually, I didn't say anything personally. I didn't also imply that He going to the extent of facing death, despite His warnings against the plot to murder Him, wasn't enough. -
If you noticed, I opened this thread because of the the biblical references that pointed to the fact that Christ was against the plot to have Him killed.

But to answer your question, I'd say Christ was victorious, He vanquished the darkness even in the face of death. The darkness tempted Him with death thinking He would flee but Christ faced death and the machination of the darkness was conquered and our salvation was guaranteed... all we have to do is follow the Way opened to us by Christ in His Word to be saved in the end.
That's the effort we have to apply. That Christ faced death shows the seriousness of His Mission which is to show us the Way. We are to apply the pure Teachings of His undiluted Words to our daily lives.

We don't have to be perfect overnight, but we must strive towards it so that in the end we may be pleasing and worthy in His Eyes.

But if after having come across His Teachings, one willfully goes against them in ones lifestyle, then such a person is doomed to going astray which leads to destruction in the end.

So yes Christ's death on the cross is more than sufficient (what can be more than giving a life). Sufficient enough to keep faith and trust in Him alive that we may live our lives in the way shown to us in His Word; that's our little contribution, knowing that His death didn't take away our sins; it didn't make us perfect overnight...rather those who partook in His death incurred a greater sin. in fact by accusing Him falsely and murdering Him, mankind incurred a grave sin!

Hope I came a bit close in answering your questions.

[quote author=Japhet04 post=30202816][/quote]

channelz:
This is a very key note question @tola9ja.

I will try to explain it. I have been studying it and now I understand much better now in light of what the OP explained about the plot by the elders and religious leaders.

Deuteronomy 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

NOW OBSERVE:

Firstly, by the law of Moses, the touch of a dead body was defiling, therefore dead bodies must not be left hanging, as that would defile the land.

Verse 23. - He that is hanged is accursed of God; literally meaning a curse of God. But the more probable meaning is "a curse inflicted by God," which the transgressor is made to endure. (NOTE, THIS IS MEANT FOR CRIMINALS ONLY BUT THE RELIGIOUS LEADERS USED THAT LAW AGAINST A JUST MAN JUST TO DESTROY HIS REPUTATION)
That thy land be not defiled.
The land was defiled, not only by sins committed by its inhabitants, but also by the public exposure of criminals who had been put to death for their sins.

This was the general interpretation of the laws of the land prevalent even at the time of Jesus.
NOW CAN YOU SEE THE PLOT, THE MACHINATIONS OF THE DESPERATE RELIGIOUS LEADERS AGAINST JESUS WHO THEY SAW AS A THREAT TO THEIR POWER, AUTHORITY AND INFLUENCE?

He that is hanged is accursed of God; that is, it is the highest degree of disgrace and reproach. Those who see a man thus hanging between
heaven and earth, will conclude him abandoned of both (God and man), and unworthy of either (God or man).

Hope this was helpful.

That's an impressive answer @channelz. Learnt quite a lot.

I can recall somewhere in the Bible how they (the Sanhedrin or high council) gathered to finalize their plot against Him. The president of the high council then was the high priest of the temple in Jerusalem Caiaphas, the Co-Conspirator who played a key role in the trial and execution of Jesus Christ. Now, some members of the council disapproved of the plot (Joseph for instance), but imagine what a high priest said with his mouth:
“And you do not consider that is profitable for us that one man should die instead of the nation, and not that the whole nation perish.”-Aramaic Bible.
Just because Christ, while upholding the law, was breaking and correcting their man-made traditions. They felt if they allowed Him, the nation would perish.

Now about channelz explanation of Deutronomy, the laws of the land and how it was used against Christ:

This actually gave rise to the eventual assumptions which develop into a belief that Christ's mission was to come and die as you can see in the attached picture below.

You can imagine how His faithful followers and believers SHOCKED, looked upon Him hanging there, fully aware of it's implication in accordance with the laws of the land concerning one who is hanged. While some mocked ("He saved others..." ), some faithful ones actually waited for their Master to come down from the wooden cross or stake.
That was the highlight of the plot; the religious leaders where invariably saying to the people:

There's your Son of God. If He truly is then let His Father show us a sign by bringing Him down..."

Since nothing of such happened, the erroneous belief (erroneous because it is not in tandem with the Words of Christ as we have seen) that this was His mission (to come and allow Himself be killed or to become a curse for us) began to spring up and spread. That was the only way to counter and shun the religious leaders and the disgrace they tried to attach to His Name.

And the religious leaders became even more worried and frustrated saying:

"He (Christ) is more dangerous dead than alive!"

In conclusion, this perspective does not lessen the work of the Redeemer; indeed it is a sacrifice which could not be greater. Jesus came down from Heaven, His Kingdom into the mire for you. He fought for you suffered and died for you, in order to bring you Light and to show you the right way upward, so that you will not become lost in the Darkness and perish!

That is how your Redeemer stands
before you. That was His tremendous
work of Love. The Justice of God continued to exist, severe and strict, in the Laws of the Universe. For what a man sows that shall he reap, as Jesus Himself said in His Message. Divine Justice does not permit one farthing to be remitted!

The significance of the blood He shed:

Revelation 7:14 is he who absorbed His Word in a living way, on account of which He was condemned as a blasphemer, thereby figuratively washes himself with His blood.

With this, Isaiah 53 should be deeply read in a different light. Surface interpretation of a prophecy should not be accepted otherwise one would ask why Christ wasn't named Immanuel.

Now a glimpse of His reaction to this:

The response from Him which I am about to quote made it clearer and clearer that this wasn't part of the Divine plan:

John 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Even the Pilate (Matthew 27:18) knew that for envy they had delivered him.

Also his wife warned him:
Matthew 27:19 When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.

Matthew 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

Now can you recall instances where these religious leaders at that time set snares to entrap He Who they should revere? Moments when they asked Him before the crowd questions about payment of taxes. I'm sure you know the adroit reply Christ gave them? Good.

Now, frustrated and desperate, they framed Him up and falsely accused Him of blasphemy (Son of God) and high treason... as you can see below.

Now these were no small offences, think deeply about it; they were crimes punishable by DEATH! Especially that of high treason. This also had the potential of destroying His reputation and honour as a Person and as the Christ.

Now note, if He (Christ) had withdrawn and fled and so given up His work, doubts would inevitably have arisen...

There are so many passages in the synoptic gospel where Christ burdened with sorrow, lamented with His disciples which I won't spell out any further... I enjoin you to go back to the gospel and begin to see things once again, but this time the pictures will unfold differently.

It may interest you to know that I discovered His lamentations as a young chap with my little abridged Bible, yep the one attached below.

Now let's go straight to His arrest.

leorayvon2k2:
If u understand simlitude Hosea 12:10 u will knw wat am talking abt.. Jesus being the express image of the invincible God.. the is if u want to see god in a being u see Jesus ..while adam is the express image of jesus...

Having said dat u should know God gave adam dominion over the birds of the air. sea and land..and over everything GOd made.. He made him a king gen 1 vs 26.


God declared him the king of all ki gs wen he said to the angels and the host of heaven .. this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye him just as he declared jesus after baptism..thats when satan got jesus and ploted his downfall not also knowing that adam was aware of the plot but played along because God has showed him the end from that beginning....just as satan came to plot jesus downfall not known he was playing along... se God is the best planner the master crafter..... u dont need to aak why is the world like this.. its all for a reason it has been planned before creation. ...this is the defination of good from evil

Predestination?

An2elect2:
Following...

You're welcome

Sorry, I've been away.

Now, still on Isaiah 53 :
I'd like to buttress more on how mankind fulfilled what was written against them (mankind) in the scriptures. -

Truly, as prophesied, He was a Man of sorrows. I won't say why, I'd just let what He was reported -in the Bible- to have said, speak for itself:

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. 16:3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 16:4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you. 16:5 But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 16:6 But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 16:8 And when He is come, He will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;....

leorayvon2k2:
If u understand simlitude Hosea 12:10 u will knw wat am talking abt.. Jesus being the express image of the invincible God.. the is if u want to see god in a being u see Jesus ..while adam is the express image of jesus...

Having said dat u should know God gave adam dominion over the birds of the air. sea and land..and over everything GOd made.. He made him a king gen 1 vs 26.


God declared him the king of all ki gs wen he said to the angels and the host of heaven .. this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased hear ye him just as he declared jesus after baptism..thats when satan got jesus and ploted his downfall not also knowing that adam was aware of the plot but played along because God has showed him the end from that beginning....just as satan came to plot jesus downfall not known he was playing along... se God is the best planner the master crafter..... u dont need to aak why is the world like this.. its all for a reason it has hbeen planned before creation. ...this is the defination of good from evil

Hhmm...now I see where you're coming from. I appreciate that you took time to share.

Omniscience is to God alone.

christemmbassey:
Again consider Isaiah the whole chapter 53. . Stay blessed.

I'm thinking Isaiah 53 was what was quoted here:"Behold the Lamb of God, which beareth the sin of the world". I already commented on this on the Front page.

Note that the starting point of the prophesy in chapter 53:3 (as seen in the attached picture below) was an indictment(accusation) on/against mankind.

Now I want you to see how the prophecy was fulfilled with this clear cut conversation between Jesus and man in:


John 8:37 [b]I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but He sent me. 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.[/b]

Remain blessed in your bones, blessed in your family, blessed in your finances... seek the truth and prevail.

christemmbassey:
ok, pls explain. Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. TO HIM WHO LOVED US AND WASHED US FROM OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BLOOD..

Ok I'll start with this:
First thing you should note is that the books in the Bible were not originally written in the English text. I had to compare different versions of the Bible. The one you quoted above was KJV. Now observe the three versions below.

Note that:John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

The reason why His blood is linked with His work of Redemption is, He (Jesus) did not shun physical death, but remained steadfast and calmly faced death for the sake of the Truth He brought. With His blood on the Cross He fortified their faith in the Truth of His words.
But this does not mean that you do not have to redeem (wash) your own sins!
Only now it is easy for you, because by bringing the Truth Jesus has shown you the way in His Words.

christemmbassey:
why atheists are always intrested in christianity? I wonder!

I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian like you.

christemmbassey:
SMH! Wonders ! Wonders!! Wonder!!!

Members of the Love World family are quite full of wonders, their president, Pastor Chris (PhD) is quite an odd one; bold and known as a myth buster.

You're welcome to share a contrary view.

[quote author=leorayvon2k2 post=29923851][/quote]Hmmm, this is new to me, I mean about Adam and he being the king of kings. Could you enlighten me and under what denomination does this fall under?

tola9ja:
my view on the question is that one of the two bibles can never be the real bible it must be one to make it unique globally

Even with the "real, globally unique" Bible, there would still be translation issues especially as there are now proliferation of revised versions and editions.

frosbel:
Very good question, I bet the religious fundamentalists are quaking in their boots.

Following and will contribute in due course.

You welcome

channelz:
The Cross was already known before Christ’s time on earth.

For thousands of years, the Equal Armed Cross has been known and accepted as the symbol of the complete Truth. The Celts had recognised it, and so did those who concerned themselves with the various Grail legends. It's even seen in nature.

The Cross of Suffering (crucifix) adopted by the churches, however, is not the Cross of Redemption spoken of when the Son of God told men that they should take up the Cross and follow Him, which means to accept the Truth and to live accordingly!

Here: http://www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/02/symbolism-of-the-equal-armed-cross/

Do your home work. Let's not derail.
Cheers.

That's okay you are in line.
Hmmm...
A doctrine of suffering is desired neither by God nor the Son of God, His Messenger!

Horus:
If your Jesus died on the cross for the world to be saved, why is there still sin today? Was not the personified Son of God enough to cleanse the whole world of sin?. Why did he have to send his beloved son to die for the sins of the world?. Couldn't he just come himself, or wave his hand and make it all well. He said his spirit was willing but his flesh was weak, and what did God do? His only begotten son, according to your belief, he let him die by cruci-fiction. So that's how God showed his love?. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. And we are supposed to teach our children this and perpetuate the greatest "story" (lie) ever told? NOT!

Easy there. We're not here to argue or undermine people's beliefs. We're only trying to objectively correct wrong concepts even with the use of the Bible itself whence the wrong concepts emerged....

And even if you are a non-Christian, you should know that Jesus proclaimed the Truth. His words must therefore also comprise all the Truths in other religions. He showed mankind the right path, which can just as well lead through the Truths of other religions. For this reason His words often accorded with the religions already existing. Jesus did not take these Truths from them but, as He brought the Truth, this Truth must necessarily already contain all that was true in the other religions.

So my friend, as much as I understand where you are coming from, do not refer to Him as "your Jesus".

Ayoakinkahunsi:
thank you
but some how he has a mission for coming to the world and prophesy supported it
am sure the new testament did clearifys doubt

Of course, there was a true mission. I just wanted to be clear as to what the mission wasn't. It wasn't to get killed so that the sins of man would be automatically taken away; which contradicts the Law of God and the Scripture.

But I would like to know from you what you think His mission was and you could back it up with the new testament.

leorayvon2k2:
If i my add chirst came to die is not his main purpose...it was to bring back his first love Lord Adam from the prision of hell .. 1st peter 3 vs 18 19 ...his first begotten ....as jesus is the first begotten of the father so as adam is the first begotten of jesus.

Palsm 24 from 9.. adam was the one that spoke when jesus rose and was acending to heaven with the people he freed.. mat 27vs 52....

So the main aim was for adam as he promised him he would not leave nor forsake him.. he willl come for him.. adam was not deceived.. he had to do wat he had to do.. just like judas..

I appreciate that you took your time to contribute to the topic. To react to your response I'll first have to spell out all the biblical references you quoted:

1 Peter 3:18- For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Psalms 24:9- Lift up your heads, O ye gates; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in. 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The LORD of hosts, he is the King of glory. Selah.

Matthew 27:52- And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I noticed that neither the name Adam nor First man/love was mentioned. So could you kindly inform me as to how you arrived at your conclusion.

I also didn't get the highlighted concluding part of your contribution, especially about Judas. Could you buttress further because the condemnable deed of Judas was made clear here:

Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

I await your response.

I'm quite satisfied with the responses and questions thus far.

And it is on that note that I thus conclude:

Only man himself can redeem himself from sin by inwardly turning to the good and recognising his faults.
He does not find this forgiveness and redemption from his misdeeds, faults and weaknesses in the taking-over of sins by Christ, but in the fulfilment of the Laws of God. Christ points out the way to it in His Word. He did not come to let Himself be put to death by men.

iamjane:
Christ cannot harvest what men sow. If this were possible God would have to alter His Laws. But His Perfection does not allow this.

Not even earthly jurisdiction permits a man to shoulder the guilt of another.

You give God the honour of Perfection with your rendition. -

Immutable and adamantine stands the Law:
What you sow, you shall reap!

I'm glad at the these responses. It doesn't make the great mission of Christ any less.

Because of our sin He came into this world to show us the way in the Word. Religious leaders at that time saw in Him a threat to their authority and means of livelihood and plotted to eliminate Him. First they set snares against Him, but when it was seen that Christ was gaining more grounds and that more people flocked around Him for answers, they (religious leaders) finally devised a means to eliminate Him.

channelz:
Christ points out the way to redemption in His Word. He did not come to let Himself be put to death by men, and thereby, as it were, demand of them to transgress His Father's Commandment: "Thou shalt not kill!"

That this death was not in the Will of His Father plainly follows from the Parable of the wicked husbandmen given by Christ(Matthew 21, 33-39)

After the servants (teachers, prophets) whom the
householder (God) sent to help the husbandmen (human beings) had been received by them with enmity and had even been killed, God sent His Son to men, assuming that they would reverence Him (Chapter 21, 37). But Him they also killed.

This is quite appreciated. This says quite a lot as parables formed most part of His Teachings. I can also deduce from this that:

He also expressed in the parable that His death was not intended by His Father, otherwise God would not have said that men would reverence His Son. Surely the meaning here is that they would not dare to harm Him! Nevertheless they did.

And the intercession of Jesus on the cross, "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do", showed emphatically enough that men's actions were wrong.

Ayoakinkahunsi:
I easily click on the reply button just to reply sharply but after I read the detail I was some how disturbed
well ,I will love to ask these question why will he come to the world and die if not because of our sin
why will he say his blood speak than the blood of Abel
most of the time I myself is disturbed but we must not forget that though the secret of the lord is with them that fear him, the secret he choose to reveal and some things are better left than touch for our own good for so the philosophers of the past did and they ended up saying there is no God
the way of the lord are mysterious
I await responses anyway

I actually wanted objective responses but since you have asked a related objective, keynote question, I'll attempt to respond:

It's a good thing that you are perturbed by certain doctrinal teachings. But the honest answer lies in the Bible itself. If we can't make the Word of God, which is contained in the Bible too, the standard and basis of our beliefs and convictions, then where do we turn to?

If you study scriptures without prejudice, you would be right to assert that:
Because of our sin, Christ came into the world; for if men stood aright, then His coming wouldn't have been necessary;

Also you would be right to say that because of our sin He died; not that He died for our sin but died as a result of our sin.

If you want I could quote passages in the Bible that points to the fact that Christ was aware of the PLOT to kill Him and He was against such plot, describing the would be perpetrators as children of the devil!

You can take a clue from the parable pointed out above by channelz

Even you, have answered the question when you asked:

"why will He say His blood speak than the blood of Abel"-

For Abel was murdered by his brother Cain

Hope this response went a long way.

tola9ja:
https://www.nairaland.com/2098054/questions-all-reasonable-christians/1#29889959

I'd like to know if you are a Christian and if your questions spring from a need to know the truth or from quriosity?

If you are not merely curious and think dogma should be questioned, then kindly drop your view on the above question. And if you have a question of serious purport, you're welcome to ask me.

Christ certainly bears the sin of the world (John 1, 29). But He bears it in His wound-marks, on Himself, as a visible sign of the sins committed against Him by men, but not in the sense of taking over their sins.

In many Bibles Martin Luther's correct translation, "Behold the Lamb of God, which beareth the sin of the world" has been changed to "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away or taketh upon itself the sin of the world". This does not correspond, however, to the real happening.

psucc:
Sorry dude, you are more confused and the problem is that you have also given your own howbeit misinformed interpretation.

Don't beg the question. An objective answer or view is highly needed. If you have nothing to say then you are welcome to reflect upon it.

And if you must know I'm not an atheist. I'm a Christian.

According to the view generally held
Christ is supposed, through His alleged expiatory death, to have vicariously taken upon Himself the burden of sins for men, to bring about a reconciliation thereby between God and men.

It is striking that in the Revelation of John, which after all came into being and was proclaimed only after the death of Christ, and which contains all the important spiritual events, not a word is said about this taking over of sins. On the contrary, it is clearly stated that it is men who have washed their robes clean, and not Christ, which means that men had to wash off their sins themselves with the help of the Word, Whose Truth Christ sealed with His blood (Rev. 7, 14).

Indeed the Lamb of God Which was
"slain" is accusingly spoken of several times in the Revelation. And even from the promised judgment of God alone, with the pouring out of the vials of Wrath, anything but a reconciliation between the Godhead and mankind is to be inferred.

But if Christ had taken upon Himself or taken away the evil works of men, what works are then referred to in God's judgment, which Christ Himself
proclaimed? "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man (whether Christians or non Christians) according to his works" (Matthew 16, 27); and in the Revelation of John the Son of Man promised: "I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Rev. 22, 12).

EnlightenedSoul:
I think you may like both lol. Well, it looks like I'm derailing a 'blasphemous' thread..

Take care, Justcare. And you, Scrypt.

Now I get it. You're right though.