₦airaland Forum

DaddyCoool:
To cut to the chase and save everybody time, please enumerate for us one by one how the following quantum properties are LOGICAL in our everyday Nairaland life.
You can start by telling us how it is logical for you to appear at the other side of a wall you shouldn't be able to walk through

I'll just let the the experts do the talking in my next couple of posts with screenshots and links to their sources. If you don't respect my opinion, at least you should respect the opinions of those who have spent years researching these concepts in their field. Also keep in mind the meaning of the word logical as you read.

1. WAVE-PARTICLE DUALITY
https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry_Textbook_Maps/Supplemental_Modules_(Physical_and_Theoretical_Chemistry)/Quantum_Mechanics/02._Fundamental_Concepts_of_Quantum_Mechanics/Wave-Particle_Duality#:~:text=This%20relationship%20was%20confirmed%20by,wavelength%20using%20de%20Broglie%20relationship.

DaddyCoool:
Well, NL is a layman's forum. It is not a place of "critical and rigorous thinking". "Illogical" serves us just fine here and conveys the meaning we want it to convey. No need to keep repeating a long word like "counterintuitive"!

Lol. This is the problem with some of you Nigerians. Stubbornly clinging on to a fundamental mischaracterization is not the flex you think it is. 😂

People who actually care for clarity and accurate representation of thoughts and ideas shouldn't be proud of their own misunderstanding. If counter-intuitive is too much of a tongue twister for you, I can give you 4 alternatives that best describe the nature of QM: Unexpected. Surprising. Strange. Weird.

Although I have a feeling that all the words I just mentioned will not go well with the narrative you've been working on for so long in this topic.

If you can accept the fact that the nature of our reality is not defined by your linguistic preferences, then I'm confident you will find inner peace. 🌚

DaddyCoool:
For our purposes here on this thread both words work just fine. We're just trying to convey that QM does not follow our everyday macro logical pattern NOT that it lacks logic in it's own quantum world!

The boundary you're trying to create between "everyday macro logic" and "quantum world logic" simply cannot exist, I'm sorry, because the core principles of logical inference (forming a premise and framework) remain constant under any scale, whether big or small. The only thing that's changing is the physical laws underlying QM. It's really that simple. I'm starting to think this basic concept is far and wide beyond your pay grade. No offense.

DaddyCoool:
You keep trying to play this your word game of "illogical" vs. "counterintuitive". Intuition follows logic, doesn't it? Or is it just based on nothing?
Something can be logical from one perspective but illogical from another. I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU CAN'T GET THAT!!
QM is not confined to maths!
QM can never be logical from our everyday macroscopic world perspective!!

Intuition doesn't always follow logic. In fact most of the time it defies it, and that's because intuition is not based on logical systems, but on our past experiences and cognitive bias as human beings.

I don't know if you're familiar with Carl Jung and his personality theories. Basically, on a surface level they might look similar, but logic and intuition are so dramatically different in the way they function and so trying to define them interchangeably the way you're doing will always be problematic.

So far so good, it sounds like you're slowly coming to realize the outright futility of your position. I mean, I've not read anything from you yet that shows you rejecting the idea that QM clearly operates according to certain math principles or structures, even though they seem counterintuitive in classical physics.

And I never said QM was confined to maths alone. That's just you showing your misunderstanding of my argument.

The only thing that remains to be seen is if you'll finally accept the limitations of your own understanding instead of trying to force your cognitive dissonance into the subject by fire by force. 🤷🏽

And at the end of the day, the laws of physics are not beholden to our subjective opinions, so you can discard that talk about logical perspectives.

DaddyCoool:
There you go again sir.
Now re-write the above post using:
FROM OUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE and we'll see whose argument has illogic as characteristic!

I'll say it again and again, those two words are more different than you think. And that's that. If you can't see how your argument isn't logical, then the joke's on you. Sadly.

DaddyCoool:
Are you just pretending to be obtuse sir?
The most important parts of my statement are:
FOR OUR PURPOSES HERE and
FROM OUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE

Now rewrite your post using those and we'll see who is thicker than a bag of rice!

FOR YOUR PURPOSES, maybe confusing counter-intuitive with illogical is convenient.

FROM YOUR MACRO PERSPECTIVE, maybe anything beyond secondary school physics looks like magic.

But in the realm of critical and rigorous thinking, which is where this conversation is supposed to be taking place, they will continue to remain fundamentally different concepts. And that's that.

Know your cognitive limitations.

From Google, for the sake of emphasis.

DaddyCoool:
Because you keep repeating the stupid statement, "counterintuitive and illogical don't mean exactly the same thing." Who said they did?!

Uhhmmm... You?

By repeatedly conflating the two words, you ARE implying that they mean the same thing. It's not rocket science, m'lady.

DaddyCoool:
Again, FOR OUR PURPOSES HERE, we want a word that means "makes no SENSE or does not follow a LOGICAL pattern from our macro perspective"! Can you please tell us how ILLOGICAL does not fit that bill.
Also tell us how it is logical that a particle would appear on the other side of a barrier it shouldn't pass through or why something applied to a particle has same effect on a particle light years away. How are these logical from our everyday perspective??

Let's try this one more time.

COUNTER-INTUITIVE: When something happens that goes against our intuitions or expectations, because it directly contradicts our daily experience and how we view and understand the world.

ILLOGICAL: No logical coherence or meaning. Something you literally can't make sense of. If it's impossible to make sense of something, then it's illogical.

Here's a hint: it's possible to make sense of QM.

Anyone who isn't thicker than a bag of rice can tell that these two concepts aren't identical. If you're having difficulties telling the difference, then what can I say? The truth is in the pudding. 🚶🏽🚶🏽🚶🏽

LordReed:
Fraud. You claimed you could make anything happen just by thinking about it but when faced with a challenge you've had to modify your position over and over again just so you don’t have actually demonstrate anything. That is full on fraud. LoLz.

I'm done with you, fraud. Bwahahahahahaha!

Exactly. 😂

She boxed herself into a corner with her suspect claims and now she's throwing everything at the wall except the kitchen sink to salvage her sinking position.

DaddyCoool:
AT CORE (tiniest particles which make up everything) the universe is ILLOGICAL (does not make sense nor follow predictable pattern - from our macro perspective!)

Which one is "AT CORE" again? I hope you're not trying to backpedal with style again? Don't forget your claim was "the universe is illogical". You never included this caveat about tiniest particles when I mentioned you the first time. Plus, even at quantum levels, there are discernable patterns and probabilities. If there weren't patterns and logical underpinnings, then quantum computers shouldn't have existed in the first place. 💁🏽

Illogic might not be an inherent characteristic of the universe afterall. It might only just be a characteristic of your argument in this topic. 🤧

DaddyCoool:
See him talking mathematical jargon to confuse people!😆
Bottom line, the particle APPEARS to have passed through a barrier it shouldn't pass through! No one has any way of knowing if it actually passed through the barrier or something else. I read in that site you posted quote "QM is actually magical in relation to the classical context".
See below, one physicist's view

Honestly I only shared that link to make a rhetorical point that you should go there and argue with actual physicists since you're so sure of your claims. I was half-serious, and also half-joking. But I like how you cherry picked a single comment from that thread that seemingly supports your claim but ignored the actual punchline of my reference and let it fly swiftly over your head. Lol.

For the avoidance of any doubt, I'll address the comment you lifted from that thread.

The guy in your screenshot compared quantum tunneling to a low resolution game rendering. Personally I don't think his analogy is accurate because if you actually take the time to read on quantum tunneling, you'll learn that it's not necessarily a glitch in the way that guy described it. It is a mathematically precise phenomenon predicted and confirmed through experiments already carried out. Read the subheading in this wiki titled "Mathematical Discussion":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling#:~:text=In%20physics%2C%20quantum%20tunnelling%2C%20barrier,of%20a%20finite%20potential%20well.

I'll reiterate again, and as I've just shown you, quantum tunneling is clearly rooted in mathematical formalisms. So you can make the argument that it is counterintuitive since it defies the notions of classical physics, but it is NOT illogical.

Obviously I expect you to come back once again and bicker some more without a convincing counterargument.

DaddyCoool:
You are the one being obtuse sir - forgeting QM is probabilistic. FOR OUR PURPOSES HERE, we want a word that means "makes no SENSE or does not follow a PREDICTABLE pattern from our macro perspective"!! Both "counterintuitive" and "illogical" fit the bill, so we use the shorter word!
No two differently-spelt words mean the same thing in all circumstances!!

Madam if you want to play with words, at least show some finesse about it and stop zigzagging around without a point. Do you think you've said anything profound yet? I'm still waiting for a coherent argument from you because none of what you've said so far has demonstrated the point that you've been desperately trying to make.

And I don't know why you keep stating the obvious. You said "No two different words can mean the same thing in all circumstances". Okay? But I never said anything to the contrary, so who is arguing this with you? 🤨

Yes it is a fact that words have distinct meanings and if anything, you're the only one ignoring those distinctions to prop up your failed position. Your choice of words so far have been sloppy at best, and have only served to obfuscate this conversation even further from when we started it. 🤦🏽

Now she's telling me QM is probabilistic, like anybody following this discussion wasn't already aware. I never forgot about that but well done all the same, Miss Obvious. 🥱

When you're done shining your torchlight under the bright sun for no reason, maybe you can turn it off and make me understand how QM being probabilistic negates what I said about counterintuitive and illogical having two different connotations.

Go ahead. Make my day.

Excellent write-up. ✍🏽

No lies told.

I don't why but before I opened the thread I read it as: Police Arrest One Cow Over Poisoning In Benue 🤣🤣🤣

LordReed:
LoLz. Is.that why none of you have walked on water because it is repeatable? Please when next are you turning water to wine I want a good party. Bwahahahahahaha!

Swear down. 🤣🤣🤣

DaddyCoool:
It is not a question of what I'm familiar with, it is a question of from what perspective we'er talking.
From the perspective of our everyday macro world it is ILLOGICAL and will always be for something to exist only when it's being observed.

Your economics analogy does not apply. For our purposes here we need a word that describes something that doesn't make sense or follow a predictable pattern. Both "illogical" and "counterintuitive" fit the bill

By the way, since you believe the universe is SOOOO illogical, then can you explain how we're having this conversation at this very moment? Or better yet, can you tell us how quantum computers were built or how quantum field theory was developed?

DaddyCoool:
I don't just know how someone can be saying that QM is logical from macroscopic perspective

Still playing musical chairs with your common sense I see. We're playing 3D chess here. Keep up.

DaddyCoool:
It is demonstrating that at core the universe is NOT logical. Objects don't miraculously appear on the other side of a solid they can't pass through

You're describing quantum tunneling, which is not illogical at all because it follows directly from the principles of Schrodinger's equation. Therefore, it's mathematically consistent. However what we expect about the interaction solid objects (intuition) might not be fulfilled on a quantum level. Our common sense simply can not be applied in the realm of QM. Once again, your ignorance of QM rears it's ugly head.

But if you still think I'm blabbing, maybe you can register on this forum here and share your views on this thread where the mathematics behind quantum tunneling is being discussed. Let us know how that turns out for you:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/understanding-quantum-tunneling-is-the-schrodingers-equation-the-key.651382/

DaddyCoool:
It is not a question of what I'm familiar with, it is a question of from what perspective we'er talking.
From the perspective of our everyday macro world it is ILLOGICAL and will always be for something to exist only when it's being observed.

Your economics analogy does not apply. For our purposes here we need a word that describes something that doesn't make sense or follow a predictable pattern. Both "illogical" and "counterintuitive" fit the bill

Alright, now you're just becoming obtuse. Me bringing up economics was to demonstrate the fallacy of your thinking that logic and intuition are similar and interchangeable. You claimed the analogy was false but you actually didn't show why it's false, you just keep repeating yourself stubbornly. 😒

The only thing I can parse from your argument is that you're incapable of considering ideas or concepts beyond what you're used to. Counterintuition and illogic are not the same. If you took this argument to somewhere like a philosophy forum where they deal with the etymology of words, I swear they'd rip you apart, no offense.

The reason we think QM is "illogical" is because we're limited by our everyday experiences. It's not a flaw in the foundational logical systems that base QM. The only thing illogical here is your complete aversion to this clearly stated distinction.

DaddyCoool:
Oga abi madam, never said it explained anything. It demonstrated it though

What are we even talking about here? What is QM demonstrating? The manifestation of reality from the transformation of human consciousness? Abi is it the mere act of observation itself?

I dey go sleep abeg. Will continue tomorrow.

DaddyCoool:
For a long time thoughts and imagination were observed to seemingly affect reality then QM came along and provided physical instance where that actually happens!

Madam abi Oga, QM doesn't explain how thoughts influence reality. Rest. 😩

DaddyCoool:
I think you missed this my post:

Both "illogical" and "counterintuitive" describe something that doesn't make sense or follow a predictable pattern. All these are counter to logic of our macro world (normal meaning of logic, as I emphasized). Of course anything can be logical within it's own context, but that's not what we're talking about. You may create a system of logic based on the quantum world and have all these logical and even intuitive, but we're talking from perspective of our macro world!

Just because you've only ever been familiar with "macro world logic" doesn't mean it has now become the ultimate arbiter for making sense of things. And just because QM challenges macro-scaled assumptions doesn't mean it poses any particular challenge to formal logic itself. So there's absolutely no need to impose our own logic rules on the quantum realm. QM already operates within its own logical framework.

Meanwhile let's come back to your argument that counterintuitive and illogical are synonymous. My Economics knowledge is not the strongest but I'll try and use it to try and illustrate the difference to you.

Normally, common sense (intuition) will have us believe that after the government has now increased the minimum wage to 70k, then poverty in the country will reduce to an extent, thereby enabling economic growth. That's common sense thinking, right?

But the reality is that labor costs are going to increase, which means that a lot of businesses could be going through the wringer. To manage costs, employment opportunities might become more limited. Doesn't this seem "counterintuitive"? Afterall, we're all expecting the welfare and livelihood of civil servants to improve with the 70k increase abi?

So yes, it's counterintuitive. But it's still logical. How tho?

Well, it still follows principles about price floors in the labor markets e.g increase in price makes employers to demand less labor, potentially reducing hours or positions. All of that is perfectly explained by economic theory and there are no internal contradictions in these principles.

I don't know if I'm explaining these things correctly but I sincerely hope you get the point cause my head don dey pain me and I wan sleep.

DaddyCoool:
Evidence abound of people who changed their conditions by changing their thoughts!

QM is only concerned with the behavior of particles, not the power of positive thinking. Lol.

DaddyCoool:
Ok, I've now read it and your link. I think you're going to confuse yourself and the "audience" delving into mathematics.
I was going to use the word "counterintuitive" but I decided that intuition usually follows logic and what is counterintuitive is very likely to also be illogical, so no need using such a long word!
All these points below about QM are both counterintuitive and illogical (it's normal meaning)

You didn't really address anything though. Everything you captured in the screenshots are underpinned by rigorous logical formalisms. None of them strictly violate logic.

Logic and intuition are two entirely separate things. QM defies common sense, but that doesn't strip it of its logical underpinnings at all.

StillDtruth:
See why you are a perpetual Fool! It's right there in black and white but you still did not recognize it and you ended twisting it all up.

Why won't your life be messed up and now you are looking for everything to blame for your misery fullness.

Fool when you are tired of using a fork to fill your bucket remember you can just hang yourself with your belt from a tree.

Okay.

Are you finally done, or is there any more stuff you need to bitch, moan and cry about? 🤔

At the end of the day, you're still a jobless and petty old man wasting his golden years on Nairaland struggling to have the last word over stupid meaningless tit-for-tats.

When you're done spitting insults all over the thread, your opinions will continue to remain inconsequential. You're a prisoner of your own ego, and that's why you can't handle the truth. No reasonable person on this forum takes you seriously. So why should I?

I sincerely believe you need therapy, because the way you conduct yourself on this forum is abnormal, saying stupid things and talking to yourself with alternate monikers. Please seek help and stop being a nuisance in my mentions. Thank you.

StillDtruth:
People with intelligence can see clearly that the stupidity of your post has been raised up and that you can not counter it, so you resort to slander and insalts.

Clearly a very big sign of one who whose brain is absent

You wouldn't recognize intelligence even if it ran you over with a tipper of sand. Please see yourself out when you're done talking to your mirror. Thanks. ✌🏽

DaddyCoool:
QM has proven that the universe is NOT logical at core!!!! That's ALL!!! I didn't say it proved anything else!!
And if the univere is not logical, these other stuff are NOT far-fetched (my exact words). NOT that QM proves anything in the macro world!!!!

Lol. I like how you just ignored everything I said (including my distinction between formal logic and common sense) only to come back and keep repeating yourself like I didn't just point out the flaws of your position. Not a good look for you I must say.

If you're going to keep repeating yourself on this subject and not offer any evidence to back your claims up, then my work here is done. I'll let discerning readers decide for themselves.

DaddyCoool:
It is magical sir, because it makes the seemingly difficult or impossible, easy. It shifts the needful from outside you to inside your head! Which makes it all magic NOT logic or science (which are what FiveFootNinj_a is always trying to fit things into!)

If you THINK you are beaten, you are;
If you THINK you dare not, you don't.
If you'd like to win, but THINK you can't,
you won't.
If you THINK you'll lose, you've lost...
Sooner or later the man who wins
Is the man who THINKS he can!

Like Burna Boy said: "you go dey explain tire, because no evidence". 🚶🏽🚶🏽🚶🏽

DaddyCoool:
With respect sir, you're not being truthful. I never said any of these is based on QM. I only said QM illustrates that the universe at core is NOT logical! (And QM is the very core of the universe).

It is beyond psychology and neurology and anything science can explain (which is what you're constantly trying to do - fit things into science). It is like trying to fit the miracles of Christ into science. Many times he said, "Your faith cured you". Your own head cured you! If your head can cure something as complex as a disease how much more these other stuff? And here you are trying to explain it with psychology and neurology!

As for the highlighted, have you considered that the universe is actually logical, except it doesn't confirm to our own expectations? There's actually a big difference between "counterintuitive" and "illogical". Basically there's a difference between common sense and formal logic. It just occured to me that you might be confusing those two concepts.

By the way, quantum mechanics is rooted in logical systems apparently, so that's another one of your claims being shot down.
Read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_logic

DaddyCoool:
With respect sir, you're not being truthful. I never said any of these is based on QM. I only said QM illustrates that the universe at core is NOT logical! (And QM is the very core of the universe).

It is beyond psychology and neurology and anything science can explain (which is what you're constantly trying to do - fit things into science). It is like trying to fit the miracles of Christ into science. Many times he said, "Your faith cured you". Your own head cured you! If your head can cure something as complex as a disease how much more these other stuff? And here you are trying to explain it with psychology and neurology!

I quoted your very own words back at you, so there's no need for you to be disingenuous. I might give you the benefit of doubt if you really didn't understand the implications of your argument, but it was clearly evidenced in the way you presented your argument. And to be honest, it's difficult for me to believe that you really didn't know what you were doing when you said:

YES!! If you are able to honestly see yourself as totally already that. But it doesn't go by comparison (richest), but that may happen by default. It's a power we just don't use because our brain is wired to believe things have to make sense when in fact the universe is NOT logical at all!😆. Quantum mechanics has proven it!

And the tone of your delivery in that last sentence was emphatic.

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to fit everything into science. I'm just telling you that most times, observable events can be explained in ways that don't necessarily subvert the common idea of causality. You're the one using magic to explain your ignorance.

IjeBos:
Imagine waking up every morning and looking up information about a foreign country you've never been to and getting enraged about things you barely understand and have never experienced all while the country you do live in is struggling economically and politically.
Sounds insane right?

I think there is someone you know who made it to the US, that you are jealous of and thus want to fail. So you want all immigrants in the US to fail so that person can fail.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣