ThierryJay: Grasping at straws aren't you now? When your illogicalities have been exposed. Why re u ignoring his brilliant direct assist to Di Maria in the second round?
And this particular impact in the QF, what you call a nothing pass was made after Messi twisted and turned over 2 belgian defenders and gave Dimaria a pass having freed him up. Without Messi's ingenuity in that moment to attract bodies and free up space, Di Maria doesnt get a pass and Higuain doesnt score. This is the smart way the technical experts looked at it and not some fugazi-screaming pseudo analyst who only sees the end product. No wonder you support Pendu.
Messi just dance shakushaku before he did normal pass. Is there anything special about that?
Debroslink: I don't care if Pele won golden ball and golden Boot at COPA. The main point is that he lost and couldn't add COPA to his CV. Even when Messi lost to Chile, he still won the golden ball.
Ronaldo has 5 UCL against Messi's 4,yet no one in his right senses can place Ronaldo above Messi anymore. Or can you place Cafu above Messi because he has 2 WCs?
At the end of the day, pair Pele and Messi's career together, Pele will dwarf over Messi.
Messi @ 35, WC title with best player. Still playing top level football. Pele @ 35, playing retirement package soccer in US.
Very funny. So you can compare Messi that won only 1 wc and floped in others to Pele that won 3 WCs, abi?
Look at how you are shooting yourself in the foot.
Ibime: These are the doings of a GOAT, unlike Expert17 list that reads like a laundry list of a desperate old man playing million matches over 3 decades
Imagine these disgraceful doings he put for Messi. Tell me someone desperately hustled in 3 different decades without telling me he couldn't achieve much. And he had the nerve to say Pele could never
Oldest and youngest yada yada yada, 5 different tournaments yada yada yada, chasing something Pele did easily at 17
Some of what he listed na nonsense yet Pele has more record than him even all the dubious titles awarded him.
Ibime: Nothing has changed. There is nothing wrong with questioning Pele rubbing his 1,000 goals in the young man's face, as the quality of opponents could be questionable, but that has never changed my criteria for GOAT status. Same year I said Messi can join Pele IF he keeps this up, showing Pele and Maradona have always been my Gods. Notice the year was 2010 and I never mentioned Ronaldo, so this is not a case of a repentant Penduist
And after Messi failed repeatedly to match Peles standards on the international stage, I told Debroslink 4 years ago that a World cup win can no longer take Messi above Pele, but he can still join the triumvirate.
The reason is simple - at this late stage of his career, he cannot claim the undisputed GOAT because he did not establish the dominance over his peers that Pele did. Messi went to countless COPAs and World Cups and did not shine. Pele shined and dominated every single international tournament he touched barring injury. He went to 4 World Cups, beasted two, was kicked out the other two by hatchet men. He went to one COPA America, won the Golden boot and Golden ball, went to 3 Intercontinental cups, won the golden boot in all, absolutely beasted them with 9.goals. There is not a single international tournament he did not establish absolute dominance over his peers unlike Messi who flopped continuously and was bullied continuously by Alexis Sanchez in COPA, Zidane, Xavi, Sneijder, Forlan, Robben and co in WC, and kept going for 16 years in order to finally put his name on the trophy. That's my argument for Pele - his dominance over his peers. Any of the triumvirate can make their claim to be the GOAT but Pele established the most dominance over his peers among the three
Messi wey dey flop 2006, 2010 and 2018. Na 2010 worst pass. He no score 1 shimgbin goal.
Ibime: I asked Ohbrittania to pull up a quote from me showing I said WC makes Messi the GOAT, he started rambling about Kanye and Kim Kardashian and his problems with limited data. I leave him to his own devices
Expert17: *Lionel Messi ranks joint-fourth all-time for World Cup goals, level with Just Fontaine (13) and behind only Gerd Muller (14), Ronaldo (15) and Miroslav Klose (16).
* Lionel Messi is the only player ever to score in all five rounds of the World Cup (group stage, last 16, quarter-final, semi-final, final).
* Lionel Messi has made the most all-time World Cup assists, level with Pele (.
* Lionel Messi is the only player to assist goals at four and five different World Cup tournaments.
* Lionel Messi ranks first all-time for World Cup goal contributions (21).
* Lionel Messi has won the most matches in the World Cup as a player, level with Miroslav Klose (19).
* Lionel Messi has scored in the most different World Cup matches, level with Miroslav Klose (11).
* Lionel Messi is the only player to ever win two World Cup Golden Balls.
* Lionel Messi is the oldest player to win the World Cup Golden Ball (35 years, 178 days).
* Lionel Messi holds the record for the longest period between a player’s first and most recent World Cup goals (16 years and 183 days).
* Lionel Messi is the only player to score a World Cup goal in his teens, 20s and 30s.
* Lionel Messi has won the most man of the match awards at World Cups with 11, ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo (7) and Arjen Robben (6). He also has the most man of the match awards at one tournament (5 in 2022).
* Lionel Messi is one of only six players to appear at five different World Cup tournaments – Antonio Carbajal, Lothar Matthaus, Rafael Marquez, Cristiano Ronaldo and Andres Guardado are the others.
* Lionel Messi is the only player in World Cup history – at least since such records began in 1966 – to score and assist a goal in four separate matches.
* Lionel Messi is the youngest and oldest player in World Cup history to score and assist a goal in the same match.
* Lionel Messi is the youngest player to play for, score for and captain Argentina at a World Cup.
* Lionel Messi is the all-time top-scoring male South American in international fixtures (98 goals)
Dominating Mr. Vasco Da Farmer everywhere.....E Choke
Records
*Joint-most goals for Brazil national football team: 77 (95 including unofficial friendlies) (tied with Neymar)
*Highest goals-per-game ratio (0.84) for Brazil national football team
*Highest goals-per-game ratio (0.84) of any South American top international scorer
*Highest goals-per-game ratio (2.33) of any leading scorer in the Intercontinental Cup
*Most goals in the Intercontinental Cup: 7
*Most goals for Santos: 643 (in 659 competitive games)
*Most goals scored in a single Campeonato Paulista season: 58 (in 38 competitive games,1958)
*Most goals in a calendar year (recognised by FIFA): 127 (1959)
*Most hat-tricks in world football: 92
*Most career goals in world football (including friendlies): 1,283 (in 1,363 games)
*Most FIFA World Cup winners' medals: 3 (1958, 1962, 1970)
*Youngest winner of a FIFA World Cup: aged 17 years and 249 days (1958)
*Youngest goalscorer in a FIFA World Cup: aged 17 years and 239 days (for Brazil vs Wales, 1958)
*Youngest player to score twice in a FIFA World Cup semi-final: aged 17 years and 244 days (for Brazil vs France, 1958)
*Youngest player to score a hat-trick in a FIFA World Cup: aged 17 years and 244 days (for Brazil vs France, 1958)
*Youngest player to play in a FIFA World Cup Final: aged 17 years and 249 days (1958)
*Youngest goalscorer in a FIFA World Cup Final: aged 17 years and 249 days (for Brazil vs Sweden, 1958)
*Youngest player to score twice in a FIFA World Cup Final: aged 17 years and 249 days (for Brazil vs Sweden, 1958)
*Youngest player to start a knockout match at a FIFA World Cup
*Youngest player to reach five FIFA World Cup knockout stage goals
*Youngest goalscorer for Brazil national football team: aged 16 years and nine months (Brazil vs Argentina, 1957)
*First player to score in four successive FIFA World Cups
*One of only five players to have scored in four different FIFA World Cup tournaments
*One of only five players to have scored in two different FIFA World Cup Finals
*Scored in two FIFA World Cup Finals for winning teams (shared with Vavá)
*Most assists provided in FIFA World Cup history: 10 (1958–1970)
*Most assists provided in a single FIFA World Cup tournament: 6 (1970)
*Most assists provided in FIFA World Cup Final matches: 3 (1 in 1958 and 2 in 1970)
*Most assists provided in FIFA World Cup knockout phase: 6 (shared with Messi)
*Most goals from open play in FIFA World Cup Final matches: 3 (2 in 1958 and 1 in 1970) (shared with Vavá, Geoff Hurst and Zinedine Zidane)
*Only player to reach 25 international goals as a teenager
*Only player to score in a FIFA World Cup before turning 18
*Only player to score a hat-trick in a FIFA World cup before turning 18
*Only player to have scored a hat-trick in the Intercontinental Cup
Imagine, Messi just dey reach some of dis level after decades of active football and still trying to catch up.
OhBritannia: I wonder why you think your opinion of Messi matters when 99.9% of people in nairaland don't even know about you or who ibime is. All your hate ramblings ends on Chelsea thread in sport sessions only.
If FIFA, Barack Obama, Americans, Europeans, north and south Americans and Asians.
If china can openly celebrate Lionel Messi when he won the world cup by lightning Their city with the huge billboards of Lionel Messi, if India, even Bangladesh and many cities all over the world can do it. If respected sports pundits and sports channels all over the world can recognize Lionel Messi as the GOAT.
If legends from other sports like basketball, tennis, golf, rugby and even many more.
If musicians like drake, Kanye west and many legendary celebs can recognize Messi as the GOAT. If the famous super bowl in America can recognize Lionel Messi as the GOAT,
Then ibime i am sorry, your opinion of Messi is as useless as the farts from my ass Which is fact.
It's the people arguing with you that i blame, They have enough data to waste, i rather use my data to watch the sex tape of Kim Kardashian than to waste it on arguing what has already been written in the stars.
When does celebrating him winning world cup tantamount to being adjourned the goat?
Ibime: Peles header against Italy, his round the keeper move in that final, Gordon Banks save from Pele header and Brazil's team goal against Italy for which Pele provided the assist and is lauded as the greatest team goal ever
Like I said the more you talk, the more you expose your myopia and ignorance and what your social media algorithms feed you
I named some goals I have seen a few times on a par with Messi goal against Getafe. I have only seen that goal against Getafe maybe twice. One of them was even forced on me by a gif Airmark posted here. Talk about your algorithms that occur to you Messi dicksúckers that go looking for that shyt, it has never appeared on my feed. But I go looking for the goals I mentioned. When World Cup is starting this Italy team goal is always played over here in UK, nobody is playing Getafe goal on my TV, never seen it on TV. Super sports should do better in Africa with historical reviews when World Cup is about to start so some clown won't tell me about Getafe goal, when I've seen the goal below on my TV dozens of times.
This Pele header in 1979 WC final is more iconic than any of Messi goals. This is what they shown my TV. What have they shown for Messi in World Cup, a man who had no World Cup history?
Then you have the Pele round the world miss. Miss that is more iconic than any goal they have ever showed for Messi when World Cup is starting. I guess they can now show the tapin against France going forward.
CAPdan21: Oga it's up to you to prove your baseless claim not the other way around...Na me go dey strain my eyes for your black and white graphics to prop up your MCM Abi...Show the goals scored by each foot or accept you're pulling arguments out of your arse...
Fact is staring at you but still asking for proof.
CAPdan21: So Messi is a one legged player??...if I ask you to provide the number of goals Pele the two legged player scored with his left foot na shalaye go end am...Lmao
Dude! Stop disgracing yourself. You can hardly tell his best foot because he scored different kinds of goals with both his legs.
He doesn't need to adjust his yanch like Messi to score with both foots.
CAPdan21: You're the one sounding foolish...dembele is two footed, guess he's a more rounded player than Mbappe...What of Son and Kane, Perisic and modric nkor
Is Mbappe a one legged player? I just pointed out one blemish your goat has. Dude is not as complete as Pele. Now, run along from my mention back to the cave.
Phraser: Complete player does not refer to a player who can score with his head, shoulders, knees and toes, Azonto (as the typical 12-year-old Redditor believes).
In football terms, it refers to a player who can play in multiple positions and can give you many things on the pitch: playmaking, scoring, etc.
That's why you are a novice in this discussion because if you're not, you would had known Pele played as playmaker, striker, ss etc.
Phraser: "Deliberately foolish." No need for puerile ad hominems. Relax.
Messi is not the GOAT because he won the World Cup (he still would be the GOAT even if he hadn't won it on Sunday). My argument for why Messi is the better/greater player (than Pele) is because he has more longevity, is the more complete player, has better technique, and because he played and thrived in a more modern and difficult era (against players with better technique and athleticism than those Pele faced). Bonus: he has more flair and his play style is more pretty to look at.
There is now far more money in the game, unlike in Pele's era, meaning there's not much separating traditional football powerhouses from the small fish. It's why countries like Croatia, Morocco, Iceland and Saudi Arabia can now be expected to do well even against teams like Germany and Brazil. There have also been innovations in diet, sports science and technology—meaning players are stronger and faster—and tactical systems have evolved and become far more complex than they were in the 50s and 60s. There's a reason the names of many defenders from that era aren't a staple in the modern imagination. I would like to think that speaks to the middling quality of defenders and defending generally in that era—so unimpressive that not many of their names survived into the modern era.
Pele was a great footballer, but Messi did it in a more difficult and sophisticated era.
You are being deliberately foolish claiming a player with 3 World Cups, 12 non penalty goals, 10 assists in 14 games has no argument against a player with 8 non penalty goals and 8 assists in 25 games
First, put to bed this non-penalty goals strawman. Penalties are a part of the game, are they not? Did you play football in your youth or for a community club? If you did, you will know scoring a penalty demands great skill and mental toughness from a player, perhaps even more than an open play goal in some cases. Which do you think came with more pressure/stress and was more likely to have turned the momentum against Argentina in Sunday's game had either of the players not scored it: Di Maria's shot that produced Argentina's second goal or Messi's shot from the penalty spot? Anyone with the smallest football knowledge knows that the penalty kick was wracked with more tension.
So Messi should have turned down the chance to play the penalties Argentina got? Such primary school logic. I guess Harry Kane deliberately missed his against France, since penalties are so easy and not worthy of being counted as goals.
As I hinted earlier, using team trophies is not a sound way to gauge a player's football ability, for the simple reason that there are many averagely talented footballers with a World Cup and many Champions League titles to their name. It simply is the case of being in the right team at the right time, or in Pele's case, being born in the right country at the right time—would he have won 1, not to talk of 3 World Cups, if he had been born in Yugoslavia and did not play in a Brazil superteam? You are basically premising Pele's football greatness and ability on geographical happenstance. How clever is that.
Football is a team sport—it's lazy reasoning to conclude that more trophies equals better ability. In which case, Dani Alves must be a greater and better footballer than Pele since he's won more trophies than him.
While you are at it, please throw away that Pele has 7 Ballon d'Ors argument. He did not win it during his career and no one cares about whatever hindsight analysis France Football has done. History is never a linear path—no one can say for sure that he would have won that many Ballon d'Ors during his career had it also been awarded to non-Europeans. As talented as Mbappe is, he still hasn't won one at 24.
Unfortunately for you, Ballon'dOr is by vote and Pele won his by those who played in that ere and even won it. Stop spewing gibberish.
Nobody cares but you care and made noise out of it when Messi fraudulently won 7 Ballon'dOr, abi?
Phraser: So there are more of Pele's clips than those of Ronaldo and Messi online?
Was that what you claimed?
Phraser: You didn't watch Pele play live, neither did you see him play in many games. What you rely on are "many Pele documentaries" and statistics (which is hardly a reliable way of gauging a footballer's ability), meaning you have no true first-hand empirical knowledge about his ability, and yet you are fully convinced he is the greatest footballer of all time?
Doesn't seem like sound reasoning to me. (At any rate, you are in the minority. Most people choose Messi).
That aside, you said all the "euphoria" around Messi would die down in ten years time. I don't think any right-minded person believes that. Have you seen the man's digital footprint and cultural influence?
If anything, it's Pele's legacy that's at stake—maybe that's why he keeps tinkering with his records on his Instagram page, aware that the world is moving on. The likes of Messi and CR7 were lucky to have played in the social media era, and there are billions of clips of them online, unlike Pele whose legacy is solely hinged on word of mouth. 50 more years or so and no one would bother about a player that played in the black-and-white era.
Seems to me like Pele was your football hero growing up and you are stubbornly clinging to the past, because I have read your comments on this thread and have not seen any good arguments from you to back up your claims.
Phraser: "Deliberately foolish." No need for puerile ad hominems. Relax.
Messi is not the GOAT because he won the World Cup (he still would be the GOAT even if he hadn't won it on Sunday). My argument for why Messi is the better/greater player (than Pele) is he has more longevity, is the more complete player, has better technique, and because he played and thrived in a more modern and difficult era (against players with better technique and athleticism than those Pele faced). Bonus: he has more flair and his play style is more pretty to look at.
There is now far more money in the game, unlike in Pele's era, meaning there's not much separating traditional football powerhouses from the small fish. It's why countries like Croatia, Morocco, Iceland and Saudi Arabia can now be expected to do well even against teams like Germany and Brazil. There have also been innovations in diet, sports science and technology—meaning players are stronger and faster—and tactical systems have evolved and become far more complex than they were in the 50s and 60s. There's a reason the names of many defenders from that era aren't a staple in the modern imagination. I would like to think that speaks to the middling quality of defenders and defending generally in that era—so unimpressive that not many of their names survived into the modern era.
Pele was a great footballer, but Messi did it in a more difficult and sophisticated era.
You are being deliberately foolish claiming a player with 3 World Cups, 12 non penalty goals, 10 assists in 14 games has no argument against a player with 8 non penalty goals and 8 assists in 25 games
First, put to bed this non-penalty goals strawman. Penalties are a part of the game, are they not? Did you play football in your youth or for a community club? If you did, you will know scoring a penalty demands great skill and mental toughness from a player, perhaps even more than an open play goal in some cases. Which do you think came with more pressure/stress and was more likely to have turned the momentum against Argentina in Sunday's game had either of the players not scored it: Di Maria's shot that produced Argentina's second goal or Messi's shot from the penalty spot? Anyone with the smallest football knowledge knows that the penalty kick was wracked with more tension.
So Messi should have turned down the chance to play the penalties Argentina got? Such primary school logic. I guess Harry Kane deliberately missed his against France, since penalties are so easy and not worthy of being counted as goals.
As I hinted earlier, using team trophies is not a sound way to gauge a player's football ability, for the simple reason that there are many averagely talented footballers with a World Cup and many Champions League titles to their name. It simply is the case of being in the right team at the right time, or in Pele's case, being born in the right country at the right time—would he have won 1, not to talk of 3 World Cups, if he had been born in Yugoslavia and did not play in a Brazil superteam? You are basically premising Pele's football greatness and ability on geographical happenstance. How clever is that.
Football is a team sport—it's lazy reasoning to conclude that more trophies equals better ability. In which case, Dani Alves must be a greater and better footballer than Pele since he's won more trophies than him.
While you are at it, please throw away that Pele has 7 Ballon d'Ors argument. He did not win it during his career and no one cares about whatever hindsight analysis France Football has done. History is never a linear path—no one can say for sure that he would have won that many Ballon d'Ors during his career had it also been awarded to non-Europeans. As talented as Mbappe is, he still hasn't won one at 24.
This is another gibberish laden with prejudice.
Messi a left footed player more complete than Pele who is two footed!?
You are trying hard to sound intelligent but to be honest, you're not. To simply put it. You're an ignoramus.
Ibime: Pele was already retired for 2 years before he went to New York. Europe doesn't come into play. He retired in Brazil and chilled for 2 years until New York threw money in his face
Ibime: Even if you are deliberately lazy, the 1970 World Cup is available in colour and on all media platforms
You are being deliberately foolish claiming a player with 3 World Cups, 12 non penalty goals, 10 assists in 14 games has no argument against a player with 8 non penalty goals and 8 assists in 25 games
Deliberately foolish claiming a player with 7 Balon d'Ors without playing Europe has no claim against a player with 7 Balon d'Ors in Europe
Deliberately foolish claiming a player with 750 non penalty goals in just 812 games despite playing midfield half his career has no claim against a forward with 682 non penalty goals in 1002 games
Deliberately foolish claiming a guy with 7 World Cup semifinal and final non-penalty goals has no claim against someone with just one
Pele has stood the test of time for 60 years. E no get one angle Messi fit use against Pele
Phraser: You didn't watch Pele play live, neither did you see him play in many games. What you rely on are "many Pele documentaries" and statistics (which is hardly a reliable way of gauging a footballer's ability), meaning you have no true first-hand empirical knowledge about his ability, and yet you are fully convinced he is the greatest footballer of all time?
Doesn't seem like sound reasoning to me. (At any rate, you are in the minority. Most people choose Messi).
That aside, you said all the "euphoria" around Messi would die down in ten years time. I don't think any right-minded person believes that. Have you seen the man's digital footprint and cultural influence?
If anything, it's Pele's legacy that's at stake—maybe that's why he keeps tinkering with his records on his Instagram page, aware that the world is moving on. The likes of Messi and CR7 were lucky to have played in the social media era, and there are billions of clips of them online, unlike Pele whose legacy is solely hinged on word of mouth. 50 more years or so and no one would bother about a player that played in the black-and-white era.
Seems to me like Pele was your football hero growing up and you are stubbornly clinging to the past, because I have read your comments on this thread and have not seen any good arguments from you to back up your claims.
What gibberish! The bolded found you out already. It is laden with prejudice.
So, there's no Pele's clips online to watch on your phone, abi? Keep lying through your teeth.
hensben: Your first point, you don’t use one game to win wc. Messi has been best player in two wc. He was carried to two of his wc which is fact. Brazil is the biggest footballing nation. On individual level, messi is the greatest footbalrt of all time.
Who teĺl say na one game Pele take win wc?
Argentina is what? You want to make excuses for Messi, abi?
Won two ojoro best player wey Blatter FIFA confirmed it was a big mistake.
Debroslink: Pele was playing in the farmer's league when Di Stefano was winning UCL 5 times in a row. Baba no get liver come Europe. He dey form goat for farmer's league.
A goat who hasn't tested water depths of Europe can't be called the GOAT
Remember farmer's league player smashed UEFA Champions wotowoto.
hensben: Lol were you in pele days. Pele is an icon but messi has done more than him in the game. Two of pele’s wc he was carried to it.
Has Messi won 3 world cups?
In 1958, he scored in the knockout stages including a hattrick in the final at 17 years old yet he was carried. Won the best young player of the tournament (he was actually the best).
In 1962, he played the 2 matches before he was taken off due to injury.
European Football (EPL, UEFA, La Liga) › Re: Official Chelsea Fan Thread: Club World Cup Champions 2025-2029 by forgiveness: 3:27pm On Dec 22, 2022
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