₦airaland Forum

Ezkid:
Its just absolutely erroneous to say God doesn't know technology or the universe he created isn't perfect, everything is perfect from the beginning but the Devil brought in imperfections from the moment the foundation of the world was laid. Everything will be perfect in the next life that's beyond the reach of the Devil, come to think of it, everything that's necessary for the invention of this so called technology has been loaded and hidden right from the beginning of the world, of all the planets in the universe he designed only earth to sustain life while others are void of it and someone thinks that's coincidence? Hell No! You want to tell me he didn't know humans will develop automobiles and yet he created crude oil "a vital resources which without would make something like such impossible?" beneath the thick earth? Ofcourse I don't need a soothsayer to tell me he knew!!

Oga... if i accept that God exist according to u... can u tell me how u got to know God is one individual? Hw did they are not many or a happy family of Gods? How did u know its definitely not a black smoke of aliens or super balls that created tye universe.
Concluding that God exist is not an answer to anything... its the begining of questions.

OkaiCorne:
Should Science be held at fault for wrongly applied logic?

What kind of question is this?

Who is science?

Do u even know what science is?

Wrongly aplied logic is because of faulty thinking.

Pls do not derail... i am not going to talk some meaningless jargons with u

OkaiCorne:
[/b]

What exactly do you want? Patterns or Details? Countless Patterns I can give you, but exact details I am afraid I can't because even I nor Science can give you an answer. I leave you science oriented guys to find the details.

Why do I really need to know the details when these details will still fit into a pattern (bigger picture)?

When you see viruses or bacterium multiply at a rapid pace...can you identify the first one that triggered the multiplication?

Does this imply u mention creatoe up and down without knowing anything about it?

OkaiCorne:
You agree failure is a wrong application of logic but not a fault in the logic itself? Are you saying logic can never be faulted?

Logic can never be faulted... only a wrongly aplied logic can be faulted.

OkaiCorne:
Don't confuse me for a religious person...Remember I stated earlier on this thread that religion gives the TRUTH a coloration that most men can easily understand. I need to come down to the religious angle at times to get my points across so people can have some understanding.

What Religion calls Devil is like a "Negative" terminal of a battery. Check my first post on this thread...I tried tackling the riddle with common sense before diverting to religion and all of that.

Everything seen and unseen tries to explain the TRUTH...Just have a clear mind and see how everything fits in...

Nice to know u can actually answer questions like this.

Now answer the other point in the post u responded to

OkaiCorne:
I have bolded this statement of yours again just to give you heads up on the need to combine logic with intuition.

If Logic according to Frank317 is responsible for the creation of the bulb by Edison and logic is always right...How come did Edison fail 1,000 times before getting it right?, should we credit logic for those failures?

If Science has all the answers to life, why was the cure for HIV not discovered by Science at the first attempt?

How did our Ancestors in Africa survive all these while without knowledge of Science?

Don't see my questions as trying to prove you wrong...I think we have gone past arguing...

Lol... failure is only a wrong application of logic..it could also be as a result of misplaced imagination.

OkaiCorne:
The bolded is still summarized as INTUITION+LOGIC=INSIGHT. You are still beating around the bush with too much words. I typed this much earlier in the day and you are just confirming it with the statement of yours I just bolded...good to see you catching up gradually...

No problem bro... so explain how intuition plus logic equals to insight has explained to u that the creator is one being and not many... and that he is uncreated..and that he is spiritual and that he is external and that he created devil.

If u really want me to end this discussion ask me again how i know my parents are my parents(which has nothing to do with the question i asked). i will take the repeatation of such a silly queation as an afirmative "i dont know"

OkaiCorne:
To be honest...whether you believe the Eternal Creator or not...doesn't change the fact HE exists.

Just as how I don't care to know if your Parents whether dead or alive changed the fact they are existing or once existed on earth.

Who cares

Back to where we can have a common ground...is Humanity where it should be ideally?

Pls dont go personal by bringing peoples parents when discussing beliefs. Pls let this be about God or no God. Not our loving parents.
God is imaginary.... our parents are not.
I know some of u value God over ur parents... but we believe this is wrong hence the need for correction

OkaiCorne:
Kindly quote where I mentioned logic is totally irrelevant. Kindly read my last four posts and add something to your knowledge bank ...instead of arguing fruitlessly.

U said intution comes when logic fails and went ahead to talk about 6th sense and stuff. I can quote i if u want. U even went ahead to say we only know how to use our five senses which implies logic, his this baxk and forth which is aimed at showing u the importance of logic and how imagination and intuition as solely dependent on logic to make sense.

[quote ]If you rely much on Logic...Artificial Intelligence will render you redundant...Only Imaginative, Creative and Intuitive people are beyond the threat of AI.[/quote]Pls dont derail the thread with beautiful nonsense and explain how this intuition has helped u understand things about the creator.

According to your line of reasoning, I guess talented footballers use only logic to achieve their goals.

Yes.. without logic creativity is useless. Ur five sense have to be sharp and on point foe u to be a better footballer. Logic converts ur creative imagination to reality and makes senses of it.

Edison had to first imagine (mentally picture) what he had to apply logic on to birth - a bulb. A healthy blend of logic and intuition is needed to get the best out of life.

Well my aim is to show how important the use of logic and five sense is over imagination. I have done that... if u think its not give me a reason why u think so.
I also intend to make u stop saying that where logic fails intuition takes over...i just want u to understand that inguition is uselsess without logic.

If you don't agree...argue with the authors of the articles I pasted here.

INTUITION + LOGIC = INSIGHT; if you don't agree others with abundance of common sense here agrees...

Agree with what? U seem to be lost in the argument

OkaiCorne:
What is the starting point of Edison's work? Imagination or logic?

It could be imagination, it could be need, it could be imitation... so? Was this the bane of our argument? Where we ever arguing on which comes first?
The only point i am trying to let u know is that ... without logic all edisons imagination would have remained just imagination....weather it came first of last.
Infact i have so many imaginations that have amounted to nothing because the the cant stand the test of logic.
Only logic brings about the truth. Imagination cant.

Before a new concept is realized...does it flash across your mind as imagination or pure logic?

U are missing the point. We are not arguing on which cones first... we are telling u the role of logic in finding the truth.
U can have many many many imagination but they cannot lead to the truth without logic.

So creative things are created with Logic as the starting point?

Logic brings about the truth... not imagination. No one is arguing which cones first or last with u.

If this is how atheists think...then I will rather die than become one...

Stop making up arguments and responding to it while we are actually supposed to be answering each others question here so as to stick to topic.

OkaiCorne:
Tell that to over 5 billion people on planet earth...and the generations before them and the generations to come...

Five billion people? Is this ur defence for maintaining ur assumption is the truth. 5billion people that know that their imagination cannot stand the test of logic? Five billion people who, like u, cannot not even collectively agree on what this creator is, how he is and if he is one or many? Five billion people who simply are afraid of after life and are gambling with their believe. Oga... seriously?

For Imaginations to become reality...a healthy dose of logic is needed... Now Imagination or Logic...which one comes first?

I have been waiting for u to say this. Is it about which comes first. Oga... every one imagines but not everyone uses logic. Foolish people dont use logic.
The fact that people always imagine proves nothing. Even mad men on the streets are full of imaginations. Stop holding unto imagination like its that important.
It is actually very common. Whats not common is logical thinking. Which u have been trying to discredit.
If it was about imagination coming first... then the world would have been greater than this. People imagine all the time. Imagination can come first, last or anything... all i want u to know is that imagination is absolutley nothing without logic.
Funny u are now asking which comes first... thought u said imagination(intuition) helps where logic has failed.
U can imagine anyhow u like... but logic create things and brings about truth.

Remember that I said earlier on this thread....IMAGINATION+LOGIC=INSIGHT. Imagination is a subset of intuition

If you missed that part, I can quote it for you again o

So lets relate to your creator.

Akin1212:
He does not have the IQ capable of realizing this. He just can't fathom no matter how hard we try.

Isnt this quite sad. I really feel bad for him. The bad news is that the guy thinks he has found the truth.

Imagine this guy leading some ignorant bunch. The way he comes out so confidenly can make an ignorant person think he has a lot to teach... this is how pastors mislead people with their so called truth.

OkaiCorne:
Am I really discussing with someone who just said Edison used zero imagination but 100% logic to create a bulb?

Edison did not use imagination to create bulb. He used logic. Imagining a bulb does not create a bulb. U can spend ur life imagining things but ot can never create those things... only logic does.

Let me throw this question back at you...How did you know you are the product of only two parents?

I know the process of child birth. I know it takes two people to have a child... i did not imagine two people were my parents and them they automatically became my parent...(do u see how to reply to questions)

If Common Sense gave you the answer as two...I leave Common Sense to guide to the answer on your question. Use your logic to tell me of a story book with several starting points in the first chapter.

Use common sense for the first time in ur life and tell me how u found out that this creator is one person and not many creators... infact u can also use ur imagination since it seems to be ur strong tool of reasoning.
U say the universe has a creator (starting point) right?
Tell me how u know its just one creator and he is uncreated and he ia external and he also created devil.[/quote]I WILL NOT SPOONFEED A GROWN MAN WITH MILK AND GIVE HIM DIAPERS TO WEAR![/quote]Stop priding urself over repeating nonsense.

OkaiCorne:
So Edison never Imagined what the bulb looked like abi? He just started using logic to figure out something he never imagined abi?

Please stop embarrassing your fellow atheists abeg? This is really disappointing coming from you.

So the picture that must have been imprinted on Edison's mind was not imagination...but Logic...wehdone sir...

Do you really want me to get a dictionary definition of imagination before we continue further?

Relate edisons process to creating a bulb to ur creator lets how it fits... seems u are fund of throwing up examples without thinking them through.

Imaginations are just what they are. They can run wild and they and can be so illlogical. Logic only brings imagination to life. If logic cannot bring ur imagination to life it will only continue being imagination and cannot be the truth.
Ur imagination about a creator has failed to stand the test of logic thats why u cannot answer simple logical questions. Hence it will continue to be what it is...YOUR IMAGINATION.

OkaiCorne:
Keep on weeping for Nigerian youths that are making waves in their areas of influence while you are pursuing pension and salary in your small cubicle at work...keep on weeping

Whats this.... mchewww. Oga, u dont know how i makr my money. So stop sounding like a cry baby.

Why is it difficult for you to draw a conclusion from a series of basic examples I gave you? Why can't you use common sense examples to counter me?

Ur exampls are so unrelated. I responded to them all and even asked u how they are related to the questions i asked. I answered all ur analogous questions while maintaining that i don't see how it relates to my question. U never related it even when i showed u that i cant see the relationship and screamed out that they dont relate. U just kept on repeating urself like u were saying anything reasonable. And telling urself that u have found the truth.

Where has common sense demonstrated to you on a smaller level the possibility of existing without a creator or predecessor?

Was i asking u to tell me if there was a creator or not? How did common sense tell u that the creator is one person and he is a spirit being and he created the devil... see ur life.

Why can't this same rule apply on a vastly higher level?

Abegi... stop acting ignorant. It will not help ur case

OkaiCorne:
But Edison must have used only logic to invent the bulb...I guess you are right sha...

Zero "imaginations" are needed. I really love your logic... ride on

So learned one, what is the source of Truth?

Imagination is not the source of truth... logic is.

Pls stop embarrassing yourself.

Edison did not use imagination to create bulb... he used logic.

1+1 is not imagination... it is logic.

Imagination is when u cook up A creator who created devil to compete his other creations with him. When u cook up a creator who can never be seen and make excuses for him as ro why he cannot be seen. Imagination is when i think i have a plane that talks and goes to toilet and can change form and even become a car after flying me to abuja. THATS NOT TRUTH.

OkaiCorne:


I used basic examples to bring your conclusion on the absence of an Eternal Creator to question...and you think you are hurting me?

Thanks for the free advert...You have done a lot of good for the cause of Atheism on Nairaland

Ur examples where off point and didnt address any point. What stopped u from answering directly.

Why use exampls that are not even related the the questions asked?

Look at how ur replies sound...

Me: how do u know the creator is one being and he is external, what do u know about the creator? How are u sure there is a creator? What if this universe always existed? If u think this everything must have a starting point do u think the creator has a starting point? If u think the creator does not how a starting point, how did u know? Isnt it possible the universe too does not have a starting point... (since we can imagine things anyhow)

You: how did u know ur parents are ur parents? Do u know the starting point of a circle u draw?


Surprisingly u think these responses/analogies are perfect and intelligent.

I weep for Nigerian youths.

OkaiCorne:
I guess absolutely [b]all our "imaginations" [/b]are wrong then...Nice logic there

Imagination is not the source of truth...

OkaiCorne:
I am trying to explain how your instincts (gut feeling) can lead you to the correct answer before your logic catches up to confirm it.

When you were a baby...did you use your instincts or logic to know your parents were your parents?

I guess you are trying to correct over 5 billion people in the world that their instincts are wrong in believing there is an Eternal Creator right?

Keep it up...you guys will go far.

is just believing there is an external creator enough? is that the truth u claim u have found out?

I have told u before... our imaginations are capable of running wild...
oga... saying that there is an external creator raises a lot of questions... have u u bothered to ask urself these question?

\
i have to head home from work now... u might not see my replies for a while.

OkaiCorne:
There you go again...this would be the third thread I would be correcting this false impression of yours...

Do you really want me to bring links to the previous threads here?

U are actually acting like u know something... like u have discovered to truth, like u know so much...


I think what u tell urself is different from what u act out... hence ur confusion

OkaiCorne:
If you are really intelligent...why can't you arrive at a conclusion from the basic examples I gave you an extrapolate this on a larger scale?

Does life have a pattern or is it haphazard...is nature and the Universe we live in no longer guided by rules and patterns and systems?

I want to be honest and no insult intended... I think u are so unintelligent to realize that ur examples do not answer the question... u are carried away by what u think u know when in reality u know nothing... i am really sorry for u.

OkaiCorne:
Bros I agree with you, I don't know anything...You that knows something, please teach me. I want to learn na. Abi na Science you wan use teach me?

From infancy...how did you know your parents were your parents...was it Intuition or Logic? which one came first?

If I have given countless examples at basic level that no one can exist without a creator...why is it difficult to accept this at a higher level?

Una Atheists ehn...

I know my parents are my parents from learning... I live with them, they love me enough, they look like me, they care for me, i act like them, i belong to their family, they act like other parents, I have learnt what being a parent is and they are a good example.

again how does this answer the question on how u got to know the creator is one being?

OkaiCorne:
A lot...but in summary...

The answers to the most complex things in life are usually in the most basic things. The more you understand the basics...the more you can handle advanced matters. It is a paradox that works out well...

Frank317...it is better you have a personal experience...afterall, evidence is more persuasive when you experience it rather than[i] make inquiries...[/i]

do u realize that u didnt just answer my question?

let me repeat the question in case it was lost on u..
what did this intuition of urs tell u about the so called creator u so much believe in

u claim u know nothing... but u act like u know it all

OkaiCorne:
You are asking me this question again? Stimulate your intuition and find out the answer. I am tired of repeating myself...

YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE QUESTION

stop going in circles... i am much more intelligent than u assume. When i see the answer to my question i will know it.

OkaiCorne:
The Eternal Creator designed things as we know on the principle of Circle/Cycles...if you observe time on a larger scale...events are cyclical and not linear.

how did u know that there is an external creator? what if this universe has just always existed? what if that an many creator balls? why assume AN EXTERNAL CREATOR when in reality, u dont know?

Can you identify the starting point of this Universal Cycle where the Creator resides?

NO... I am not even sure the universe has a starting point... I am not sure there is a creator that resides anywhere... i simply know nothing about the begining of the universe.

Do you recall on this thread and another thread where I categorically stated that I DO NOT KNOW IT ALL?? and I am on a journey to understanding this TRUTH wholly?

u actually really knows nothing... u dont even know the route to this ur journey of truth. this is what i want u to accept.

Do you want me to quote the thread here?

no need...

OkaiCorne:
I guess you understand why we need a healthy blend of both.

Imagine intuition as water and logic as the bottle. That is what I have been trying to tell your other friend about...but I guess he is a LOST CAUSE.

what has intuition thought u about this creator?

OkaiCorne:
But your parents are the source of your existence...just as an Eternal Creator is the source of the Universe...

do you really want to display your scientific wisdom to Nairalanders again?

what is AN EXTERNAL CREATOR?

how did u arrive that this creator is external and is just one being?

OkaiCorne:
And you are absolutely correct. Relying on Intuition alone or logic alone is a faulty approach.

You need a healthy blend of both...

so how does this answer the question on how u got to know the creator is one person?

OkaiCorne:
Very good...you can identify the starting point because YOU CREATED IT... can another person identify the starting point of this circle?

Are we getting somewhere?

No, someone else cannot identify the starting point and when he is asked he should simply say he does not know the starting point instead of saying ridiculous statements like.."I dont know the starting point but i am sure is has a starting point"... Duh thats answers nothing. or say that "I dont know the starting point but i am sure it was started by someone, i guess that someone is Akin (when in reality Frank drew it).

OkaiCorne:
But you knew you parents were your parents by intuition at first... and you were happy ...weren't you?

Intuition came first but logic later followed...

I think logic sets intuition straight. we will be misled if we have intuition without logic.

OkaiCorne:
Very simple! Because it is beyond my level of understanding does not change it from becoming the TRUTH!

u cannot know if its the truth if its beyond ur level of understanding. Stop calling what u dont understand the truth. simply say u dont understand it. The Truth is, 'U DONT UNDERSTAND IT'

Did you know everything about life from the first day they gave birth to you?

No... and i dont go about calling things i dont know the truth.

Did you understand the whole TRUTH on life at a tender age?

Nope and I dont go about calling all these things that I dont understand the truth.

On the bolded part...do you know you need more than your five senses to know the TRUTH?

I need logic to know the truth... I need to be humble and apt in reasoning to know the truth. I dont base my truth on intuitions and assumptions.

OkaiCorne:
To answer the bolded part. If I draw a circle, can you identify the starting point?

I have been telling you repeatedly...if you can identify the starting point of a Circle drawn by the Eternal Creator then...you have solved the mystery behind creation.

Any further questions? And please don't ask me what I have answered before...unless you want to tell me you can't solve riddles and draw inferences from basic analogies.

Thanks.

if i draw a circle, i can definitely identify the starting point... sorry i am not smart enough to relate how this answers my question. Can u help me out? i am lost.