₦airaland Forum

BegAt40:
Bro please how do you view those scientific verses in Quran and Bible?

I don't see it as a reason to be religious but I'm curious about the knowledge came to human mind without any scientific knowledge.

what do you mean by without any scientific knowledge? Science is as old as man.

What is science?

It is the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment.

Humans for thousands of years have been able to observe their environment, have been observing the stars, observing plants, animals and learning. That is science.

It has nothing to do with Koran, bible or any set of people. Science has always been needed for humans to survive.

There is nothing spectacular about any scientific observations recorded in the Quran.
Science gets better and better, so stop being fascinated by writings of over 1400 years ago and rather pay attention to the science of today that we have better means of research and verifications.

FreelanceRebel:
You can win arguments for the sake of it. But that would not stop realities from materializing. From the beginning of Creation, there has been rich and poor people. Why are people poor or rich is a matter of another discussion. But Paul has this to say: **he that does not workch should not eat**. This is the beginning of being poor.

The Parable of the Talents she'd more light why some are poor, and while some are richer than others. The one that has 2bit of investment won't be as rich as the one who has 5bit of investment.

Knowledge, chance, opportunity, favors, mercy, insight, risk-taking, among others are factors that influence one becoming rich. Besides the afore mentioned, being shrewd is another factor.

Your op was maliciously done for the sake of argument, but in any case THANK GOD FOR EVERYTHING. THANKS TO GOD FOR SUPER EAGLES LOSING Too.

of cause I can win because I am right.

You are totally missing the point... you happily ignored the fact that it is your god that was promising his followers riches and not me. It is your god that said he would make a distinction between those that serve him and those that dont in terms of riches and blessings so that everyone would know and confirm that you serve the true God.

You had better start reading your damn bible and stop putting mouth in things you dont know.

A001:
You obviously don't know the history of the ancient Egyptians.

If you do, you'd reaiize they attributed all their achievements to their pagan gods and goddesses, chief among which are Atum or Tem, Ra, and Amun.

Hence, you'd see the names of their gods at the root of their own names. Do you think it's a coincidence names like Aten (the other name of Atum), Ra, Amun are parts of the names of many of their pharaohs?

The paintings of their pagan gods (the source of their knowledge ad civilization) are on many pyramids in Egypt.

Or you think their gods who are their ancestors are fictional entities? Lols.

smh. Rather is the sun, even though not fictional, we all know the sun is just a star and does not talk or have children or human characteristics. You are not making any sense whatsoever. You just like the mysticism be attached to ordinary things. The egyptians were not so spectacular as we think, they were absolutely ordinary people who just had a competitive environment for arts, architecture and what we would call the sciences . They were people who studied nature, constantly improved themselves, but all the same superstitious and religious.

A nigerian medical doctor could be religious and still be a good doctor. He could give god the accolades for his career successes but we know for a fact that god has nothing to do with it... we know because even an atheist can be a good or better doctor, god has no place in the success of a doctor.

Same with the Egyptians, you just love the mystic theory, all those gods, alien visits and stuff. Something useless but interesting to talk about. Good for movies and cheap useless talks has no place in real life

KnownUnknown:
Lol. People do like to be deceived.

I had to go check the dictionary for the meaning of insightful because I don’t understand how that new age bullshit was insightful. “Frequencies, energies, waves, photon souls” . If A001 is a “physicist”, I am a Nobel prize winner in astrophysics.

Everyone should at least watch the summary of energy from the 2:50 mark from someone who knows what he’s talking about. Also watch from the 23:50 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQTWor_2nu4

lol. I always laugh at the gross ignorance of these guys. My background is in engineering and I read a lot, I just decided that it is pointless discussing intellectually with nairalanders as most are just carried away with believes not science. Most pretend to know science and think using scientific words makes them knowledgeable. So many of them here. No point explaining shit to them, they are believers in different forms not science oriented. Science is not belief based, it I'd evidence based. It is not based on stories, it is based on history. Examinable sources not obscure mythism

BegAt40:
really insightful. thanks man

insightful? Lol. Humans love good stories, we cant just help it. Lol.

Dtruthspeaker:
Change of Post! My mind is not the topic. It is you who raised the topic of rich vs poor.

So because have lost and can not counter you are now looking for how to change the topic.

Kô lé wërk!

lost? How did I lose? Has any of the rubbishes you posted changed the fact that Arabs, chinese Japanese are extremely rich without serving your god? Richest man for africa sef is a Muslim. But your bible says god would make a distinction between those that serve him and dont here on earth. Your god said you will lend to nations, but na chinese and atheists we see lending to nations. Lol and you say I lost arguement? Which arguement again o, cos it cant be this one. You are the one running to heaven upon realizing you are a failure here on earth

truespeak:
Na you E no favour exactly as we warned you wicked doers!

We dey enjoy so tay we no dey ever remember say una dey exist until una open your mouth dey talk rubbish then we come to set it alright!

indeed una dey enjoy . What would you say before?

Dtruthspeaker:
Change of Post! We are not talking about experiencing forever but about rich vs poor, which is better!

rich of cause. Even you wish to be rich, but upon realizing you have zero hope here on earth you have decided to hope there is a heaven were you can eventually be rich. Keep hoping

Dtruthspeaker:
When we get to the New World, where evil people like you are permanently cut off and we are given our New Shiny Fat Land, God's Word is still Fulfilled!

So, No Road!

upon realizing that indeed god has not been favourable to you guys, you have shifted expectations to heaven. Sorry o

Dtruthspeaker:
I get to Live Again, in a Good Full world, where evil people like you will never be there.

So, since you people have destroyed this one, YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL, ESPECIALLY AS IT IS BEING DESTROYED AND IT WILL BE DESTROYED BY THE LANDLORD.

I'LL RATHER TAKE THE NEXT FLIGHT TO THE NEW WORLD THE LANDLORD SHALL MAKE AFTER PERMANENTLY REMOVING AND DESTROYING TO THE DNA, ALL THE EVILS WHO DESTROYED THIS ONE.

SO YOU CAN HAVE IT ALL! I'LL RATHER WAIT FOR THE NEW ONE.

THANK GOD THIS ONE IS EVEN OLD, I REFER NEW THINGS.

being an atheist does not make me evil nau. What do you mean by evil people like me? The fact that you are a christian makes you evil. Why? You as a Christian have food to eat, but many of your church members dont have, have you helped them? Any christian that has a car is evil, because you could have used that money to save some souls, but you chose to buy car. Is that not being evil? How can you claim to be a follower of christ but spend your money on things of the world that profit nothing eternal when there are widows to feed, homeless to shelter, the gospel to spread. But you concern yourself with fighting for contracts and promotion at work.... you Christians are the evil people so get off your high horse. The standard god has set for you, you all are pretending not to be aware, you want the things of the world.

Dtruthspeaker:
I prefer to be poor at the first and live forever than to be rich and Die Forever.

"Better the end"

hehehe. Scam. So all the promises in the bible to give you believers the fat of the land na lie abi. You dare call god a liar? Did your god not say he would make a clear distinction between those that serve him and they that dont? Didn't your god say that those that refuse to serve him, several curses would follow them and canker worms would waste their labours? Be like you no dey read bible o.

Dtruthspeaker:
Only fools like you people think it a good idea to buy land and building in disaster zones.

tell me one single tangible thing you gain as a Christian that no other religion can claim same gain.

Optimistguy1969:
Shut up!!!!
Why your papa name no dey among ?

exactly! He would have been on the list along upur papa if say na god dey give wealth

Thank God for Elon Musk the richest man in the world Not a Christian
Thank God for Jeff Bezoz
Thank God for Bill Gates

All not Christians

THANK God for Arab money!
Thank God for Chinese money! THEY ARE BORROWING TO NATIONS! they are unbelievers!

Thank God for broke suffering Christians that their shoes are worn out and dont know what to eat after church service.

Thank god for broke Christian's that are owing school fees, House rent and cannot repay loan app loans.


Shey una no get sense to know that you benefit nothing from being Christians.

Shey u shout and clap when your church member is giving you lamba claiming he or she is giving testimony.

Testimony time! Lying time!

Keep deceiving yourselves and be thinking your religion makes you special!

Imagine if the richest people in the world were Christians we for no hear word again.

Una mumu never reach

kaymart:
I live in Ota. I see ppl genuinely hustling. I haven't seen otherwise as u proclaimed

thank you jare

DeepSight:
Humans regularly have dreams that have nothing to do with either memories or experiences. In fact they also have prescient dreams as well as lucid dreams but let me not create a tangent which will be too distracting.

I dont agree.
Experiments have been carried out to study what we call perception and it was discovered that we are unable to pay attention to most of the stimuli that we receive. For example what you think you see everyday is just a tiny fraction of what you eyes actually see and what your brain actually retains. You see more than you are aware of, you hear more than you are aware of, your brain is crunching a massive load of information and working over time to help you stay connected with your reality as much as possible. The interpretation of these data can be misleading most times.

For example an hung coat could look like a ghost to you in the darkness of night. Such malformed informations lead to malformed memories, most of which goes unnoticed. Many of these useless thoughts and memories would eventually be dumped.

For lack of distraction when you are asleep, your brain is busy joggling most of these memories even the malformed ones.

When awake, you have enough to distract you from these malformed memories

DeepSight:
You are surprising me. Well put, interesting thoughts.
However do remember that humans engage in some extraordinary activities which are not easy to tie to mere physical survival or pleasure etc. Such as intricate philosophy and the search for meaningfulness.

we can look back historically and safely reach the conclusion that we were not always interested in thinking as much as we do today. It was not neccessary, the complexity of the human mind is as a result of the environment as I have stated before. A psychologist Neils kellogs once decided to raise his son with a chimp. The son retarded, because his competition was only a chimp. Why do we think of germs when we buy food to eat? Because we have been thought. Why am I typing and responding to you on nairaland, because we have evolved to this stage. This activity would be totally useless to a cave man some years back. We are learning and taking in a lot of factors.
Take a look at dogs, they are also becoming smarter and more complex. They are fast learning to read humans more accurately because their survival is tied to us.

Rats also exhibit brilliance when placed in environments that challenges their brains.

We survived by our ability to think, makes calculations, communicate, have foresight. We have only become better at doing this fundamental things.

LordReed:
Indeed. I only say not ordinary because it is not tangible like matter is.

just like gravity has perplexed scientists to the extent some even propose it does not exist, so is the human mind. But we need to step back and look at all of nature even plants. We have all developed means of reacting to our environment. The response if plants may be slow, but when properly observed, they are as interesting as that of animals. Yet people do not say bacteria, fungi and plants have "minds" we humans must be the most special specie, we attribute too much to ourselves. In the end, we are no better than any bacteria, we basically live by same rules... to survive... to find pleasure... to flee harm and discomfort... we only go about these objectives differently. Our very complex actions such as showing love, are by products of a desire for pleasure. Showing love makes us feel good just as eating makes us feel good. Our ever busy brains, so busy it take almost a third of all the energy in our bodies, is busy churning out a lot of by products of it's working to fulfill fundamental objectives of survival. Because it is going about it in an extremely complex manner, it is inevitable we have the by product called sentience.

Imagine how much factors are involved in just picking an apple and eating it. As simple as this process seems, our brain engages so much neurons to achieve it. So much goes into such a simple act, you see the color, you anticipate the taste, your nostrils anticipate the smell, you are sensitive to the texture and feel of the apple in your hand, your memories of apples are activated, in the process you remember better or worse apples you have eaten. You take mental notes.. all this happening subconsciously. You even think of the apple being dirty and needs washing because it is in your unnatural memory that germs exist. Lol.

When we begin to study how much energy the brain expends on everyday actions, even when sleeping our brains are still busy sorting our memories and experiences that the whole mess becomes a dream...

Its hopeless but fascinating

LordReed:
It might be a conundrum for you,it certainly isn't for me. Maybe because I don't know better to express the idea that even though mind is produced by matter it has become a sum that is greater than its parts. Yes we know that [b]ordinary matter has no volition but in our case ordinary matter is producing something that is no longer ordinary [/b]and is now able in turn to affect the matter that gives rise to it. Your position is like claiming a self driving car cannot exist because cars that came before it were not self driving.

perhaps it is ordinary, we only ascribe relevance to it because we think it is. Everything in nature is extraordinary. The whole cosmos and all about it is super extraordinary even atoms are extraordinary... little wonder in perplexity we bow and say God must be behind all these.

[quote author=post=109444936]Before we go on, can you properly define spirit that inhabits the human being and outline its characteristics.[/quote]deepsight, seems you missed this.... please clarify this.

Karleb:
Comrade, why do you love violence?

it I'd vawlence. Please spell correctly

DeepSight:
Even though I dispute the fundamental argument that mind arises exclusively from matter, I have never quibbled about the indubitable fact that matter has effects on mind. That is so patently obvious that one would have to be beyond pedantic to dwell too much on it, much less dispute it. It is also true that the brain (and the body by extension) deals with a great deal beneath the radar of our conscious cognition. For me, all this is in line with its role as a biological super-computer responsible for dwelling in, apprehending, acting in and experiencing the physical world.

You have at least taken the somewhat consistent position that we do not infact have true control - what LordReed cannot sustain is his contradictory position wherein he asserts mind to be the product of the activity of matter and simultaneously seeks to infer that mind has control over said matter.

lordreed could be right, if I understand him clearly. The activities of the brain (matter) could further affect or spur more activities.

Are you aware there are computer codes that self edit? What you would call self learning codes. And this is still basic to the capacity of the human brain. The human brain is indeed capable of learning, memorizing and using this memory to create objectives, this is basically us influencing matter with mind which is still a product of matter. It is not absurd

DeepSight:
The experiment on neurons and freewill I was referring to above -

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/how-a-flawed-experiment-proved-that-free-will-doesnt-exist/

(As you may see the article also includes the flaws of the experiment which is why I said I do not entirely accept it anyhow).
But note: your worldview as described must align with the position of the experiment because you say that it is the activity of matter which is responsible for the functions of mind.

A more detailed take on the issue of neurons and freewill -
"What does Neuroscience say about Freewill?"
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2016.00262/full

interesting read. Truth is I always say it that we are not in control of our thoughts, the fact that our brain has to capture and process so much data and dismiss most even without us being conscious of it, shows that we are beings affected by our environment and subconscious. But this does not in anyway dismiss the fact that all such mental activities are physical and there is no independent mind involved. The brain. Is still in charge

Ishilove:
Your mother, your grandmother, your sisters, your aunties, your female children and all the females in your extended family are useless, not Ishilove. It is that same uselessness that you are now projecting to female strangers on the internet.

Oloriburuku omo ale.

ishi baby. How u dey?

LordReed:
Again this like asserting that because individual water molecules do not have the property called wetness therefore the wetness of water is some kind of ghost in the machine. This would be clearly an erroneous view since what we call wetness is borne out of the interactions of the water molecules. Just as it is erroneous to keep asking why cells and neurons have no intent since we are made up of cells and neurons.

There is no illogic in saying you have control over certain bodily functions, thought routines or actions because it is evident, I am writing this with my fingers consciously controlled by me to hit the keys for instance. However it is a strawman to say I said we have complete control since I never said that. I even went as far as saying we have no control over what our cells are doing nor can we consciously control them. The will we possess is limited in scope and function. This is the position of a compatiblist not a determinist.

Insisting that the only way matter can be controlled is if you have complete control down to the individual components is the illogical position. When you press your remote to put on the TV are you in control of any of the constituent molecules of the remote control or the TV or are you controlling a particular function of the whole remote and TV? It would be absurd to say that we are not controlling the TV because we are not controlling its individual molecules when evidently our control is over specific functions.

absolutely. But this even further proves that our minds are not embodied in a spiritual sphere, but by the collective activities in our brains.
Our cells can be influenced, our neurons can be influenced intrusively, chemically and physically (electrically or even by physical distruption)

DeepSight:
Thank you for your contribution here, but I think what you are missing out is the ability to consciously experience. Even with the best receptors, does a robot consciously experience anything in the way a conscious human does? Does a robot enjoy a sunset, taste an orange, can a robot enjoy sexx, can a robot have emotions such as love, hatred, and the like?

Can any conceivable robot even in the future have these attributes if it is not imbued with self-consciousness as a being?

do you think we humans are consciously living? We are slaves to our brains. That is why if a child is born with a brain defect, it determines the life experience if that child. If the mind was independent, such brain damage would have no bearing on the life experience of the child.

DeepSight:
I think the below is an important point you need to address yourself to, Lordreed.
(in addition to the other responses i made to your responses in the NDE thread, but I am most interested in this point on determinism as I have responded below.



I think you are quite entirely wrong on this point and while there is much I could write in proof of that, perhaps its best to keep it short and simple: so long as you do not have any control of the cells, neurons and chemicals whose activity and interaction allegedly produce and direct your consciousness, then it is absurd and illogical to assert that you have any conscious control of yourself, your thoughts and your actions.

Determinism is thus inferred by the position that mind is the result of the interaction and activity of matter alone: because if it is true that your consciousness and mind are a function of such interactions of matter, in order to have control of your consciousness and mind you must have control of the said interactions of matter in the first place. It is an irredeemable circular conundrum.

you err in this.... while you cannot control your own brain (directly), you quickly and promptly forget that you can do this through drugs?
You quickly forget or deliberately ignore the fact that drugs and absolutely alter reality. Which is proof that a chemical process affects what we think is the mind... therefore proving that the mind is not spiritual. Your reality is in and through you brain activities only

DeepSight:
LordReed, a little over eight years ago, I wrote the following in an attempt to argue the point we are discussing here - and say that "the person" is distinct from the body -

I contend that save there exist a being which inhabits the body, there could be no such thing as the senses, no such thing as thought, and no such thing as emotion.

To be clear, I say that the being utilizes the particles which form a body, as instruments of perception: and I deny the reverse - which would be to say that dead particles assemble over time, and through evolution, into a perceptive being.

I say that a robot cannot taste an orange, or enjoy s.ex, however it may be formed, now or in the future.

I say that cameras, even computerized cameras, do not have the faculty of sight.

I say that audio recorders cannot hear.

I say that perception is only open to a person, and that matter, and the body, is not, and cannot, be a person.

I say that experience is only open to a person.

I therefore say that that which is not material, evidentially exists.

I task the atheist to identify, define and locate the self.

https://www.nairaland.com/1565324/person

You may wish to consider the foregoing in this discussion.

hmmm... I understand where you are coming from... this is a question that has not been sufficiently addressed. It one that has challenged scuentists, computer programmers, and psychologists for a long time.
Can machines be sentient?

In my opinion, we are looking at it the wrong way. I think we are assuming so much and not being properly thorough.

Can humans really see?
Can humans really taste?
Do we fear?
Do we love?
This are things that we think machines cannot do, but honestly we are mistaken.

What makes a human fear?
First you need receptors to pick up the fear factor, secondly this message is processed in the mind based on memories and logical associations or why that fear factor should be of concern. Then there is a response.

All these stages can be disrupted, influenced and recreated. It shows that the human body functions even as a machine and there is no "mind" involved really.

Without receptors, you cannot taste, see, feel, hear the world.

Without receptors there is nothing for the mind to work with.

Without receptors, memories cannot be formed.

Without memories, there is nothing for the mind to work with.

The chemical process involved that makes us, sleep, fear, enjoy food and sex.. has been properly studied and can be recreated, manipulated... because that is what controls you from the brain, not a spiritual mind.

If the mind was independent, it would not depend so heavily on chemical and electrical process that enables our sentience.
We basically are machines that are just capable of performing high level computing of our environment and that environment includes our own selves.

Following

pocohantas:
It is my choice to reply who I want, as long as I do not break rules while doing so. If you want sweet topics, create one. I also want to read from you. Have a lovely day.

true True true. My bad, I cant tell you what to do and not do. Enjoy!

pocohantas:
When you say everyone knows my age, you make it look like you guys hired the CIA to dig out my birth cert. My age is right there on my profile. I am well into my 40s and I put it up there myself. I am also telling you that what you are going through is familiar to me. This is based on my age, which like you rightly said is old news to everyone.

You’re most welcome.

poco, you dey Bleep up. Why all these talk talk nau? Must you reply every mention? Please go back to creating those sweet topics and stay out of these banters dont become useless like a certain ishi love

michlins:
Whenever a Nigerian start telling you about his relationship with God, just raise your guard higher than normal

you are a sharp guy. The moment he said he made a convenant with God not to push drugs, I knew he was guilty.
How?

Only someone who has pushed drugs and escaped would have a need to make such convenant