₦airaland Forum

davidylan:
Questions answered in the order they were presented:
1. That is absurd. My international passport is proof only at embassies, ports of entry or for identification purposes. It is none of your business whether i am Nigerian or ghanaian. Does anyone ask for your religion to deny or offer you a job?

2. People were forced to believe in christianity else they die? Please table this issue with the catholics.

3. Did you live in old testament times? Did the jews force the babylonians or hittites or moabites to follow their God?

4. I don't "attack" allah and his prophet. This seems to be a recurrent lie of yours anytime i challenge your motive. I'm only interested in what the muslim has to say when he tries decietfully to force his allah into the bible i believe.

5. Whinning? Not at all. I have no problems with those who question what i hold as truth . . . i have only 2 things to say in that regard -

- if the individual is genuinely interested in the truth he/she is more than welcome to engage me.
- in the event the individual (such as yourself) is only interested in mocking my belief, i only say - it is NOT by force to believe. If you think the bible is a myth then you're better off sleeping than bugging christian threads all day while decietfully complaining about too many God threads.

Killing the Prophets of Baal (1 Kings 18) for following the "wrong" god hardly seems like something merciful;

1
   Long afterward, in the third year, the LORD spoke to Elijah, "Go, present yourself to Ahab," he said, "that I may send rain upon the earth."
2
   So Elijah went to present himself to Ahab.
3
   Now the famine in Samaria was bitter,
4
   and Ahab had summoned Obadiah, his vizier, who was a zealous follower of the LORD. When Jezebel was murdering the prophets of the LORD, Obadiah took a hundred prophets, hid them away fifty each in two caves, and supplied them with food and drink.
5
   Ahab said to Obadiah, "Come, let us go through the land to all sources of water and to all the streams. We may find grass and save the horses and mules, so that we shall not have to slaughter any of the beasts."
6
   Dividing the land to explore between them, Ahab went one way by himself, Obadiah another way by himself.
7
   As Obadiah was on his way, Elijah met him. Recognizing him, Obadiah fell prostrate and asked, "Is it you, my lord Elijah?"
8
   "Yes," he answered. "Go tell your master, 'Elijah is here!'"
9
   But Obadiah said, "What sin have I committed, that you are handing me over to Ahab to have me killed?
10
   As the LORD, your God, lives, there is no nation or kingdom where my master has not sent in search of you. When they replied, 'He is not here,' he made each kingdom and nation swear they could not find you.
11
   And now you say, 'Go tell your master: Elijah is here!'
12
   After I leave you, the spirit of the LORD will carry you to some place I do not know, and when I go to inform Ahab and he does not find you, he will kill me. Your servant has revered the LORD from his youth.
13
   Have you not been told, my lord, what I did when Jezebel was murdering the prophets of the LORD--that I hid a hundred of the prophets of the LORD, fifty each in two caves, and supplied them with food and drink?
14
   And now you say, 'Go tell your master: Elijah is here!' He will kill me!"
15
   Elijah answered, "As the LORD of hosts lives, whom I serve, I will present myself to him today."
16
   So Obadiah went to meet Ahab and informed him. Ahab came to meet Elijah,
17
   and when he saw Elijah, said to him, "Is it you, you disturber of Israel?"
18
   "It is not I who disturb Israel," he answered, "but you and your family, by forsaking the commands of the LORD and following the Baals.
19
   Now summon all Israel to me on Mount Carmel, as well as the four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal and the four hundred prophets of Asherah who eat at Jezebel's table."
20
   So Ahab sent to all the Israelites and had the prophets assemble on Mount Carmel.
21
   Elijah appealed to all the people and said, "How long will you straddle the issue? If the LORD is God, follow him; if Baal, follow him." The people, however, did not answer him.
22
   So Elijah said to the people, "I am the only surviving prophet of the LORD, and there are four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal.
23
   Give us two young bulls. Let them choose one, cut it into pieces, and place it on the wood, but start no fire. I shall prepare the other and place it on the wood, but shall start no fire.
24
   You shall call on the name of your gods, and I will call on the name of the LORD. The God who answers with fire is God." All the people answered, "Agreed!"
25
   Elijah then said to the prophets of Baal, "Choose one young bull and prepare it first, for there are more of you. Call upon your gods, but do not start the fire."
26
   Taking the young bull that was turned over to them, they prepared it and called on Baal from morning to noon, saying, "Answer us, Baal!" But there was no sound, and no one answering. And they hopped around the altar they had prepared.
27
   When it was noon, Elijah taunted them: "Call louder, for he is a god and may be meditating, or may have retired, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened."
28
   They called out louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until blood gushed over them.
29
   Noon passed and they remained in a prophetic state until the time for offering sacrifice. But there was not a sound; no one answered, and no one was listening.
30
   Then Elijah said to all the people, "Come here to me." When they had done so, he repaired the altar of the LORD which had been destroyed.
31
   He took twelve stones, for the number of tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the LORD had said, "Your name shall be Israel."
32
   He built an altar in honor of the LORD with the stones, and made a trench around the altar large enough for two seahs of grain.
33
   When he had arranged the wood, he cut up the young bull and laid it on the wood.
34
   "Fill four jars with water," he said, "and pour it over the holocaust and over the wood." "Do it again," he said, and they did it again. "Do it a third time," he said, and they did it a third time.
35
   The water flowed around the altar, and the trench was filled with the water.
36
   At the time for offering sacrifice, the prophet Elijah came forward and said, "LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things by your command.
37
   Answer me, LORD! Answer me, that this people may know that you, LORD, are God and that you have brought them back to their senses."
38
   The LORD'S fire came down and consumed the holocaust, wood, stones, and dust, and it lapped up the water in the trench.
39
   Seeing this, all the people fell prostrate and said, "The LORD is God! The LORD is God!"
40
   Then Elijah said to them, "Seize the prophets of Baal. Let none of them escape!" They were seized, and Elijah had them brought down to the brook Kishon and there he slit their throats.
41
   Elijah then said to Ahab, "Go up, eat and drink, for there is the sound of a heavy rain."
42
   So Ahab went up to eat and drink, while Elijah climbed to the top of Carmel, crouched down to the earth, and put his head between his knees.
43
   "Climb up and look out to sea," he directed his servant, who went up and looked, but reported, "There is nothing." Seven times he said, "Go look again!"
44
   And the seventh time the youth reported, "There is a cloud as small as a man's hand rising from the sea." Elijah said, "Go and say to Ahab, 'Harness up and leave the mountain before the rain stops you.'"
45
   In a trice, the sky grew dark with clouds and wind, and a heavy rain fell. Ahab mounted his chariot and made for Jezreel.
46
   But the hand of the LORD was on Elijah, who girded up his clothing and ran before Ahab as far as the approaches to Jezreel.

dreswa20:
i am a devoted catholic, but i fall in love with redeemant and we are planning our wedding, i am confuse because i didnt want to leave my church. wht do i do. i love him and it has be confirmed that we are meant 4 each other. should church be d problem b/w us.

Who confirmed that you were made for each other? How did they arrive at this conclusion and would you trust them? If you would, go back to them and ask them for a solution to your dilemma.

You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye, and then you will see clearly enough to remove the speck from your brother's eye.  Matthew 7: 5

davidylan:
you all are a confusion to yourselves. I'm left wondering, why are you constantly posting about a barbaric book? Have you got nothing else of substance to read and do?

This world is made rotten thanks to religions and superstitious beliefs. I (and other rationalists) owe it to posterity to help free humanity from such delusions.

dudu-bobo:
huxley,

I have decided not to read through your write up because I take your first line as one with which you chose to insult me. It could be that that is not your intention but it does read very insulting to me.

Am sorry you felt insulted. Honestly, it was not meant as an insult. On second thoughts, I should have worded it slightly differently.

Most people find the word "ignorance" particularly hurtful when directed to their persons. To be ignorant of a subject is not something to be ashamed of. No one is up to speed with everything there is to know. I am ignorant of many many things, but given the opportunity I like to learn about new things. What is most detestful is wilful ignorance, particularly on subjects about one is capable of developing appreciable knowledge, or that is relevant to one's direct circumstance.

So pardon me.

Which is quite a sad "study" - because they would have to explain how I've seen positive results in prayers.

Why would this be a sad study? Interesting how you make claims and yet provide little or no substantive evidence as to why it would be "sad".

It is through studies of this type that a great deal of the diseases that afflict us are being tamed. There is no doubt that there is a psychological component to many illness and to this end modern medicine is taking steps to instruct medical practitioners as to how best to deliver care to the sick. Percieved cures from prayers are indistinguishable from such ordinary psychosomatic sures.

And no theist has been a philanthropist, No?

I did nOT said that. Of course human goodness (badness) is NOT a function of whether they believe or not in the existence of gods. I think there is more magnanimity in being good simply out of human goodness. Goodness delivered in the hope of heaven rewards is simply of an inferior nature.

mazaje:
go and smoke dry shiit. . . . when you were disparaging allah and his prophet you didnt know that you were attacking some one else's belief abi. . . . stop claiming and hanging unto some stupid innocence. . .  you christains claim that your bible is the word of god and contains the ONLY truth. . .  we have every right to question that claim. . . stop whining like a baby and stand up to that which you assert as the ONLY truth. . . . .nonsense. . . . .

Classic.  Thank you.

Only wish he could a bit of advice from his own barbaric "holy" book.   Before you look at the sand in you neighbour's eyes make sure you remove the plank in yours.

blackspade:
Well, enjoy not taking pride in your own ethnicity, and not being proud of all the accomplishments. Like I said before, I'm a proud African, and I could care less about some fanatic trying to convince me something else. Are you going to find an Indian forum and tell all Indians not to be proud of their ethnicity? Would you say the same about Mexicans, Pakistanis, Somalis, Kenyans, Chinese, etc. . . . Do you see a pattern?

Minorities in a western country don't just assimilate immediately with the White race, who have been there longer than most, except the majority of African Americans in America. White people have had much success in their countries, their pride should have to go unsaid, and is well understood in America, so John McCain saying something like "White Pride" would immediately be taken as more racist, as Obama saying he's proud to be Black.

Please, you have some internal issues that I cannot understand, but hopefully you'll get over it, because you seem like the sell-out type. Don't sell your people out, because you can try to hide your pride, but one day when you're in need, and that other group will leave you out to dry, who will you look for?

I said I have many things I am proud about and these are my own personal achievements, of which I have many. They give me endless joys and sense of pride. But I am not proud about things I had no choice over.

If everyone, every nation and every ethnicity were equally proud, then at best it is a neutral concept. Unless you are to say that some nations/tribes/people ought to be more proud than others. In which case you will have to define what such nations ought to be proud about.

Unfortunately, like most people you have bought into this bogus idea of pride in unchosen things and fail to see the false logic in it if taken to its ultimate conclusion. Yes, if I had the means and energy I would like disabuse people of this bogus concept.

It is instructive to note that you have singularly failed to take the thought experiment I gave above. Why don't you give it a try?

White people have had much success in their countries, their pride should have to go unsaid, and is well understood in America, so John McCain saying something like "White Pride" would immediately be taken as more racist, as Obama saying he's proud to be Black.

Following your logic, White people ought to be proud of their success, correct. Is success not considered an aspect of achievement. Where are the successes the Africans ought to be proud about? Or are we only to be proud about our biological attributes, about which we have not choice. Or is pride for successes and acheivements only reserved for the Whites, while non-whites ought to be proud about their biology and ethnicity? By that token, a donkey ought to be proud for being a donkey.

reminds of the debates of yesteryears when supposedly enlightened people used to debate about how many angels could dance on the point of a needle.

While you are at it, could you answer the following questions;

1)  How long did the flood last?

2)  What combination of animals were taken by Noah into the flood?

3)  How did carnivorous animals survive in the ark and immediately after the flood?

4)  For animals that have specilised diets (like the giant Pandas that only eats bamboos) did they come along into the ark with packets of bamboo?

5)  How did the giant sloth which is native to South America travel to the ark given that it barely moves a meter an hour?

6)  How do you explain the fact that some animals are unique to only some remote island?  Like the fact that there are no native placental mammals native to Australia.  How come pouched marsupials are native only to Australia?

dudu-bobo:
Science is not supposed to have an answer and then work towards the answer. I am not a scientist but I believe that is not the ideal way for science to go. Science should be about finding answers through investigations, not investigating in order to arrive at a pre-determined outcome.

This is like a policeman who has already determined guilt of a culprit and then finding anything that may help to butress his conclusion.

Let me try and relieve you of you ignorance of the way science works.

Amongst the various ways science works, is the paradigm of hypothesis formulation. A hypothesis might simple be a hunch about something. The scientific method generally entails the formulation of a hypothesis and the verifications, validation and acceptance (or rejection) of the claims of the hypothesis.

Take the case of the hypothesis of cosmic expansion. When this was first formulated, there was another rival hypothesis, that of a steady state universe. Some physicists hyposthesised that if the universe sprung into existence from a massis explosion, then there should still exist radiotion from that explosion event. Loo and below, in the 50s or 60s the Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) from the Big Bang event was detected. Today, even your common TV or radio set can pick up this CMB. They also predicted that the temperature of this radiotion would be about 3K and loo and behold when it was first detected and measured it came to about 2.7K

The expansion of the universe was first measured by Hubble in the early 20th century and since then there has been many independent lines of eveidence that point to an expanding universe.

Further, any good scientific theory should have a great deal of explanatory power and should be capable of making substantiable predictions. Take the case of the discovery of Tiktaalic, one of the first animals to have walked on land from the sea. Using their knowledge of evolution, geology and plate tectonic, scientist were able to predict the existence of such fossiles to with a few kilometers of it home terrain. And they found it exactly there in 2004. Isn't science GREAT?

blackspade:
I'm proud to be African! The thread starter must have some sort of self hate that he can't deal with on his on, so he tries to bring the rest of us down. Hopefully this fanatic of a person will find some type of happiness in their life, probably through a series of skin bleaching sessions.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. I have many things I am proud about, but I am NOT proud to be African. It is a neutral concept, so why elevate it into this pseudo-politico-socio-cultural heights?

Why don't you try taking my thought experiment given above?

Should a French man be proud of being French? Should an English man be proud of being English? etc.

Should Obama say he is prouds of being Black? Should McCain say he is proud of being White?

pilgrim.1:
@mazaje,

That doesn't mean it doesn't work. Your argument is untenable because you're looking at Nigeria and making claims from subjective point of reference, which is not the same thing as an established and concrete statement.

I don't think it is wise to be so polarized as such. One cannot blame the results of prayer on indices of infant mortality - and if at all you want to hold that line of argument, you seem not to have carefully checked your facts, mazaje. A reminder:

Countries such as Sierra Leone and Angola are not as "prayerful" as you may assume for the case of Nigeria; but established sources put their infant mortality rate at far higher than that of Nigeria . . . please see the following quick references:

http://www.aneki.com/mortality.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate_(2005)

Besides, what strikes me is that people who sound as polarized as you do often want to blame every single problem you can fathom on the wrong indices. Infant mortality and prayer - please can you establish the point of reference as a philosphical and scientific methodology of measuring such demography for any nation?

Most Asians do not pray and yet suffer far more than you deplore the case for Nigeria.

Most atheists with all their wealth disposed have not been able to help the situation of suffering people - a most remarkable thing nobody talks about. While Christians will endeavour to reach difficult places with helpful resources, most of the atheists I know will simply curse away and do absolutely nothing in such instances. Atheism is not to be mistaken as the best alternative for wealth - I know a lot of very wealthy Christians who do not go about bragging about their wealth. Whether or not one is a theist or atheist, you point of reference is quite unfortunate - you place "money" as a reference index for prayer, and that is simply failure to make an effort to understand what prayer is really about.

Some of the most recent studies of intercesory prayers have shown them not to have the desired effects. In fact, they have tended to have the negative effect; Check this out

The oldest statistical analysis of the effects of third party prayer was performed in 1872 by Francis Galton[1], perhaps as a form of satire as well as an experiment. Galton hypothesized that if prayer was effective, members of the British Royal family would live longer, given that thousands prayed for their wellbeing every Sunday. He therefore compared longevity in the British Royal family with that of the general population, and found no difference. However, Galton’s experiment suffered from a number of confounding variables.

A number of studies have claimed that patients who are being prayed for recover more quickly or more frequently. One such study, with a double-blind design and about 500 subjects per group, suggested that intercessory prayer by born again Christians had a statistically significant positive effect on a coronary care unit population.[10] Another such study was reported by Harris et al.[11] Critics claim Byrd's 1988 study was not fully double-blinded, and that in the Harris study, patients actually had a longer hospital stay in the prayer group, if one discounts the patients in both groups who left before prayers began,[12] although the Harris study did demonstrate the prayed for patients on average received lower course scores (indicating better recovery). One of the largest randomized, blind clinical trials was a remote retroactive intercessory prayer study conducted in Israel by Leibovici. This study used 3393 patient records from 1990-96, and blindly assigned some of these to an intercessory prayer group. The prayer group had shorter hospital stays and duration of fever.[13]

Some studies of prayer effectiveness have yielded null results.[14] A 2001 double-blind study of the Mayo Clinic found no significant difference in the recovery rates between people who were (unbeknownst to them) assigned to a group that prayed for them and those who were not.[15] Similarly, the MANTRA study conducted by Duke University found no differences in outcome of cardiac procedures as a result of prayer.[16] In another similar study published in the American Heart Journal in 2006[17], Christian intercessory prayer when reading a scripted prayer was found to have no effect on the recovery of heart surgery patients; however, the study found patients who had knowledge of receiving prayer had slightly higher instances of complications than those who did not know if they were being prayed for or those who did not receive prayer.[18]

Most studies above have not to date directly measured the belief level of the beneficiary, leaving a possible confounding variable for the experiments.

# ^ O'Laoire S. An experimental study of the effects of distant, intercessory prayer on self-esteem, anxiety, and depression. Altern Ther Health Med 1997;3:38-53. PMID 9375429.
# ^ Aviles JM, Whelan SE, Hernke DA, Williams BA, Kenny KE, O'Fallon WM, Kopecky SL. Intercessory prayer and cardiovascular disease progression in a coronary care unit population: a randomized controlled trial. Mayo Clin Proc 2001;76:1192-8. PMID 11761499.
# ^ Krucoff MW, Crater SW, Gallup D, Blankenship JC, Cuffe M, Guarneri M, Krieger RA, Kshettry VR, Morris K, Oz M, Pichard A, Sketch MH Jr, Koenig HG, Mark D, Lee KL. Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II randomised study. Lancet 2005;366:211-7. PMID 16023511.
# ^ Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer [1]
# ^ a b Benson H, Dusek JA, Sherwood JB, et al (2006). "Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients: a multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty of receiving intercessory prayer". Am. Heart J. 151 (4): 934–42. doi:10.1016/j.ahj.2005.05.028. PMID 16569567.





The world's most generous philanthropist have been atheists, viz:

1) Bill Gates - donates many billions
2) Warren Buffet - also donate 90% of his wealth to humanitarian causes. This is the world's richest man, mark you.
3) Andrew Carnegie - donated nearly all his wealth to charities. He was once the world's richest.

Would help if you try and get some of your facts right.

Grand impostor extraordinaire

Brilliant response!

A local Christian preacher claims he has the power of deliverance and the locals believe him. Did they bother to ask;

1) What is deliverance?
2) Deliverance from what?


A gullible and stupid parent commits his little girl, who he claims is possessed, to the care of this preacher and he brutally rapes her and leaves her for dead. Then he goes on the run.

Why did the parent not bother to ask these important questions? Is it that they are stupid and have never heard of the concept of proofs and evidence?

Or is it that is they were to start raising questions of an evidentiary nature, they may also find themselves asking such questions of their faith? So to protect their fragile psychology, they have been conditioned to avoid such questions and take every precept of their belief on faith.

A Christian preacher comes along and claims accidents are caused by Satan - What evidence does he have for such and extraordinary claim?

Pastor AIO:
My brother, you've just picked up a word - Soul but you might as have well had said a pingalatooli or some other nonsensical term because I have no idea what you mean by the term. Please define what you mean by a soul. Otherwise I can't tell you whether what you're referring to exists or not.

for instance I do not know of anything being fused onto a foetus at some point in it's development, or of that thing being located at any point on the body. Plus you seem to be talking about something that flows in the body with the blood. Am I right?

For starters, the religions teach that there is an entity within human that survives death, and that this entity is what makes us ehrmmm, HUMAN. This entity is called in some religious quarters as the soul. Whatever it is called, is there anything within us that survives death?

Religious supernaturalist claim that human have an entity called the soul and that this is infused into the human feotus some times after conception. To say that non of this can be substantiated by evidence does little to dissuade adherent of these religious beliefs. A skeptic, on the other hand, would naturally have some serious questions to ask about not only the soul but also its relationship with the corporeal body. Such questions as;

1) If the soul is an entity that incorporates itself into the human, where does it reside? Is it in the brain, the blood, the heart, the legs, the eyes, etc?

2) Is it possible that a human can be born without a soul?

3) If someone is born with two heads, do they have one or two souls? See the story http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/bangladesh/2637040/Two-headed-boy-dies-after-after-just-48-hours.html

4) If one received an organ or blood for medical reasons, do they also get the soul of the recipients?

tpia:
Is there any evidence the baby's parents are Christian, and not Hindu or Moslem?

Can you post this question in the Muslim section, plz?

How does it matter what religion the parents are?

mesmya:
nonsense pointus

who is pointus?

Left in the hands of the church authorities we would still br plagued by diseases such as small pox, miseales.  There would be no use of aneasthesia in surgical operation, organ transplant would be outlawed, dissection of cadavres in medical schools would also be banned.

The fact that we now benefit from great advances in biomedical science and technology is an affront to the church's original position on such matters.  But why were these originally opposed by the churches?  Under whose inspiration did their opposition come?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQPBVjevO-Y


Take the case of a baby born with two heads.  Would it have been better to have the feotus terminated once it was found that it had two heads?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJ5fjLyDkcM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/bangladesh/2637040/Two-headed-boy-dies-after-after-just-48-hours.html

He (JC) dare not show his face again lest he be locked up for ever for introducing this reprehensible doctrine into the world.

If you think these people are all charlatans, why do they have a following? BTW, on what basis do you judge one as a charlatan and another as not?

Anyone to score this exercise?

Is you church like one of these?

Cristalz:
@H

The message is true,no doubt at all. But the messengers should at least try to portray some level of civility. That's all.

And,not all Nigerians are so receptive to noise.Most of the ones you see,na condition cause am.Those that can avoid it would rather stay that way,trust me.

Leave Huxley be.Hez an atheist.  .  .everything Christian is garbage to him.Its not about spoken English  

How do you know it is true? Are you not simply taking it on faith?

Hannibal:
So a preacher speaks garbage because he is not fluent in English??
Is English his/her mother tongue??
Are people born with 2 brain cell these days??
Cheese n Rice!!!!

@ Cristalz,

I understand where you are coming from. . . . .

However, what is so obscene/wrong in contributing to the work of God??
Does it really matter if the preacher is phoney?? As long as he calls the name of Jesus, i am fyne.
Whether he uses it to buy paraga or crack cocaine is not ma business anymore. . . . . Putting ma money is in his hands was done with the mind that i am contributing to God's works. . . . .Thatz all that matters.
As per the noise factor, Nigerians are mechanically programmed to raise their voices. . . .You don't believe me?? Watch Nollywood movies.

I made no reference to the preacher's ability to speak good/fluent English. The garbage is primarily in the content of his preaching ie religious superstitions

davidylan:
simple, you look into your bible and see examples of the early believers. The apostles in the book of acts took tithes and offerings to help the brethren IN THE CHURCH not to keep it to build schools, buy the fastest chariots, sell miracles and send their children to rome to study.

The venality in today's churches has a very old tradition: See https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-148199.0.html

Communication skills or not, garbage is garbage no matter how you dress it.