₦airaland Forum

davidylan:
Can this man read at all? I asked him to read Gen 1:2 and give us his opinion he's busy reading Jer 4:19 . . . verse 19 does not carry to verses 23-27 thou hypocrite . . . that they happen to appear in the same chapter nothwithstanding.

I thought you were a bit smarter than the rest, ordinary english comprehension shld tell you Gen 1:2 and Jer 4: 23 ARE ALMOST THE SAME WORD FOR WORD!

You can't see a relation because YOU SIR ARE FIERCELY DETERMINED NOT TO. Carry on with your delusions.

I drew you attention to Jer 4:19 to show you what the context of Jer 4 is. It is clearly about a foreseen destruction and desolation coming to the land. This destruction is described in the language of Genesis 1:1-2. That is the only commonality i saw in these two sections.

If I grant you your premise that Jer 4:23-27 is exactly Gen 1:1-2, how does that show that there once existed a pre-Adamite world? That is what we are after.

davidylan:
you're no more intelligent than the hubris you put here. If i say a prayer does it mean it is meant for just me alone? Can i not make a general prayer of blessing to my brother or sister or family?

Provide those passages and lets remove the scales from your eyes.

What do you mean scales? They are not scales, they are are massive concrete blocks.

1 Peter 5:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Mark 16:

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Luke 10:

17And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

1 Peter 5:
7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.



I remember singing this song when I was a Christian, which is based on 1 Peter 5: 7.


1. Be not dismayed whate’er betide,
God will take care of you;
Beneath His wings of love abide,
God will take care of you.
* Refrain:
God will take care of you,
Through every day, o’er all the way;
He will take care of you,
God will take care of you.
2. Through days of toil when heart doth fail,
God will take care of you;
When dangers fierce your path assail,
God will take care of you.
3. All you may need He will provide,
God will take care of you;
Nothing you ask will be denied,
God will take care of you.
4. No matter what may be the test,
God will take care of you;
Lean, weary one, upon His breast,
God will take care of you.

Genesis 1:
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1: 1-4 is quite clear. God created the heaven and the earth in the beginning. And the earth was without form . . . . . .

Jeremiah 4
19[b]My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.[/b]
20Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
21How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
29The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.



Now let us try and put Jeremiah 4 into context, starting from verse 19 which says;
My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

This seems to be to be a prophecy of war which carries on to the verses you cited 23-27. How does this relate to Genesis? I just cannot see it.

davidylan:
That is simply because you have made up your mind it says nothing about a pre-adamite origin . . . now read Gen 1:2 VERY CAREFULLY again and relate to us what you see there in careful detail. I see i shall have to spoon feed you people like little children.

Ok, I have no problem being spoonfed as long as we get to the facts. I am after facts no status and ego. Can you draw the two threads together? I cannot see how these relate to a pre-Adamite world.

davidylan:
Quote from: huxley on Today at 10:51:48 PM
The very begining of confusion . . . read Ps 91 PROPERLY, it is a prayer of David not God making specific promises.

Let me give you another translation of Psalm 91. This is the New Century Version.

Psalm 91: 1 "Those who go to God Most High for safety will be protected by the Almighty. 2 I will say to the Lord, "You are my place of safety and protection. You are my God and I trust you". 3 God will save you from the hidden traps and from deadly diseases. . . . .

Are you saying that this only refers to David? Where does it say that this is protection only to David?

In this and in many other passages in the bible, god promises benefits to be experienced here on earth if only one were to love god. Such benefits as excellent health, protection of calamities, accidents, disasters, financial success, etc, etc. In fact, there is a new movement within the Christian body - the prosperity movement - that emphasises the earthly benefits of believing in god.

I even went as far as saying that this is not the only passage where protection is promised.

My friend you have absolutely no case.

davidylan:
Do i take it you are incapable of reading simple english and giving your honest opinion? This is the reason most of this debates are fruitless, too many airheads crying about why religion is false . . . put them to the simple test of proving the basis of their opinions and they start hedging.

READ THOSE PASSAGES first . . . then lets have an honest debate . . . i will be here all night waiting for you.

Did I say I had not read it. I read it but did not see how it relates to a pre-Adamite world. The cited passages appear to be a prophecy of impending disaster rather than an explanation of the origin.

davidylan:
The fact that i have had answers to your other drivel on previous threads is sufficient indication that i have an answer. I will however not give you the benefit of legitimising yet another lie.

What lie? Show me what I have lied about?

davidylan:
Huxley, i can find Jeremiah 4 myself . . . i said clearly - READ IT then come back with YOUR OPINION. I wont spoonfeed adults.
Only then will i carefully explain those verses to you, don't be intellectually lazy . . .

Well, this is ad-hoc picking & choosing and massaging text out of context to fit a certain agenda. If you had answered me, that would have been a BIG surprise.

davidylan:
You render your question invalid the minute you start it with blatant falsehood.

You surely have no answer, which is still fine by me. There's nothing new here.

Can you explain how a pre-Adamite interpretation can be construed from reading Jeremiah 4 in conjunction with with Genesis 1. This is Jeremiah 4.


1If thou wilt return, O Israel, saith the LORD, return unto me: and if thou wilt put away thine abominations out of my sight, then shalt thou not remove.

2And thou shalt swear, The LORD liveth, in truth, in judgment, and in righteousness; and the nations shall bless themselves in him, and in him shall they glory.

3For thus saith the LORD to the men of Judah and Jerusalem, Break up your fallow ground, and sow not among thorns.

4Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

5Declare ye in Judah, and publish in Jerusalem; and say, Blow ye the trumpet in the land: cry, gather together, and say, Assemble yourselves, and let us go into the defenced cities.

6Set up the standard toward Zion: retire, stay not: for I will bring evil from the north, and a great destruction.

7The lion is come up from his thicket, and the destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way; he is gone forth from his place to make thy land desolate; and thy cities shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.

8For this gird you with sackcloth, lament and howl: for the fierce anger of the LORD is not turned back from us.

9And it shall come to pass at that day, saith the LORD, that the heart of the king shall perish, and the heart of the princes; and the priests shall be astonished, and the prophets shall wonder.

10Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul.

11At that time shall it be said to this people and to Jerusalem, A dry wind of the high places in the wilderness toward the daughter of my people, not to fan, nor to cleanse,

12Even a full wind from those places shall come unto me: now also will I give sentence against them.

13Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as a whirlwind: his horses are swifter than eagles. Woe unto us! for we are spoiled.

14O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness, that thou mayest be saved. How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?

15For a voice declareth from Dan, and publisheth affliction from mount Ephraim.

16Make ye mention to the nations; behold, publish against Jerusalem, that watchers come from a far country, and give out their voice against the cities of Judah.

17As keepers of a field, are they against her round about; because she hath been rebellious against me, saith the LORD.

18Thy way and thy doings have procured these things unto thee; this is thy wickedness, because it is bitter, because it reacheth unto thine heart.

[b]
19My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

20Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.

21How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

27For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

29The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.[/b]

30And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.

31For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

davidylan:
The very begining of confusion . . . read Ps 91 PROPERLY, it is a prayer of David not God making specific promises.

Be that as it may, does god not promise protection to those who believe? Ps 91 may not be apt for this, but there must be passages in the bible where god promises benefits to his followers. Otherwise, whence the biblical support for prosperity ministries?

This is Genesis 1. Can you point us to where there is reference to a pre-Adamite world?

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

In my days as a Christian, Psalms 91 was one of my favourite passages from the bible. As a kid, I remember memorising the entire chapter and reciting it in church on certain occasions. I really loved the King James version, which I have given below. This is one of the most moving, reassuring and comforting passages from the bible for it gives that feeling of being wrapped up under the protection of god.

In this and in many other passages in the bible, god promises benefits to be experienced here on earth if only one were to love god. Such benefits as excellent health, protection of calamities, accidents, disasters, financial success, etc, etc. In fact, there is a new movement within the Christian body - the prosperity movement - that emphasises the earthly benefits of believing in god.


But what does real life experience out there tell us about the comparisons of those who believe and non-believers?

Do believers enjoy better health?
Do they have better financial positions?
Do they suffer fewer mishaps like accidents?
Are they protected from natural disasters?
Do they have better and happier marriages?
Do they tend to better citizens and commit fewer crimes/offenses?

I am particularly interested in view of reports about some accidental deaths recently involving men-of-gods;

There is a report of a Pastor who drown in a river while trying to perform baptism.
There is also reports of a pastor electrocuted in a pool while performing baptism.
The dead of about 17 christians gather together in a house to exorcise demons.
The ghastly dead of the 50s evangelist William Branham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Branham.

So are Christian experiencing exactly the same fate as their non-believing counterparts. Or are all the rewards saved up in heaven?

Psalms 91

1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.

2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.

3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.

4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.

5Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;

6Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.

7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

8Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.

11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.

12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.

14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.

16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

davidylan:
You believe man originated in Africa, can you conclusively tell us WHY we have black skinned folks and white-skinned folks? how did asians evolve their strikingly different features? When you answer all that we can have a chat on why lifespan became short.

There is tonnes of evidence the confirm that Humans originated in Africa. I have many of these on Nairaland before but as per usually you guys just ignore it, preferring to go to myth of Genesis.

You indicated in one of your post that there was a pre-Adamite world and that clues to this is even given in the bible. I asked you for chapter&verse but you failed you provide such.

Pastor AIO:
O huxley, don't start shifting the context on me now.
When did I say a miracle was nothing special? What I said was that if a miracle were to jump and slap you in the face you would just sigh and go," there's got to be a natural explanation".


No!! I claiming nothing of the sort. I was demonstrating that science is quite comfortable with many unexplained phenomena and so would have no trouble sticking a miracle in with all the others such as how the egyptians built pyramids etc. I don't see how what I said could lead you to your conclusion! ??

Good for them!


No, you asked if a resurrected Newton would not be a miracle. In the context of what we are talking about I was pointing out that you would explain it away by some theory or your belief that there will be some theory discovered eventually. In the case of Newton I can imagine that the easiest explanation is that those who see the resurrected Newton were hallucinating. A perfectly explainable psychological phenomenon.
Now bearing in mind the context in which we are discussing and which thereby influences the meanings that we attach to statements, tell me who is the one misunderstanding simple statements? Just how have I ignored your question by suggesting hallucination?
Well, you might not be surprised that my religion infected brain is incapable of understanding your simple statements but I've got to admit that I am surprised that you've gone to this extent in your desperation to ridicule religion. I had a much higher regard for you.
You've shifted goalposts, shifted contexts just to wedge open enough space to get a jab at me and I feel so disappointed. You're not KAG or Imhotep. Or at least I hope you're not. Why are you resorting to double standards?
You accuse me of ignoring your questions that in fact I'd addressed and then openly wondered why as if to imply that I'm ducking and diving. However, look at what I've done for you. I went to all the trouble to address a video that was such total and utter rubbish just to please you because I thought that you were upset that I had dismissed it (apparently without cause). Till today you have failed to respond to my commentary on the video (on that 'great' humanist guy, remember?). In fact Nairaland is littered with threads that YOU have started and yet when I respond to them you fail to even acknowledge my contribution. Without a hint of insinuation or accusation I want to ask you, just out of curiosity, Why? Bearing in mind that most people just ignore your threads I think that you could appreciate when I make an effort to address them.

I must first apologise for being a bit roughshod and curt with you. I must admit you are one of the more interesting discussant here on Nairaland and it would be a shame if were manage to alienate each other.

I also apologise for not giving you a feedback on your comments about the Paul Kurtz video which I posted several weeks ago. I appreciate the effort you had put in in reviewing the video and I wanted to do justice to your comments by reviewing the video again and then responding to your comments. Unfortunately I got distracted by other ideas and comments and work and life. I Promise - I shall go back to that and respond to your comments, but it will not be for several days as I am going off away from home to visit friend where I shall not have internet access.

Now, to this post - I am not shifting the context on you. If you remember my first question, I simply asked if it was possibly to rule out some events no given our current state of knowledge and I gave two examples and asked whether it was possible to rule these out.

Basically, I was interested in knowing whether in your opinion (or anybody's opinion) certain events can be ruled out forthwith given our knowledge of nature. I would say, absolutely.

We can absolutely rule out the coming back to life of someone who has been dead for hundreds of years. I know this is an active are of research (cryogenics, etc) but our current state of technology has no way of reconstructing dead tissue and cells which would be required if a hundred-year old dead were to come back to life. Let's us say no element of deceit or hallucinations etc are involved.

We can also rule out the case of a river flowing uphill. If such a thing were ever discovered, it would violate all our know understanding of nature.

So give that miracles are usually defined as a violation of natural laws, a river flowing uphill and a hundred-year old dead coming back to life would class as miracles given our current state of knowledge.

So to truly see if miracles could be occasioned by prayers, could we pray for the Niger to change its course and flow uphill. Or could we pray for Pharoah Ramesses to come back to life?

tpia:
who exactly are you fighting- God or people who believe in God.

If your beef is with God, then direct your questions directly to God, since you're unwilling to accept any human answer.

If your problem is with people, then say so. Ask them the rationale behind their belief and accept the fact that in this world, everyone can't be the same. We are not clones. Everyone can present their arguments for or against a particular thing, but you can't force anyone to accept or reject the same things you do.

Even the soviet Union is no more. China is desperately trying to adopt a new face to match the western world. If they can dance to a different tune, then whats your own excuse.

Am not fighting anyone. Am simply asking questions about the reasonableness for a belief in god(s). So far, I have not had any answers that appear coherent, consistent and logical.

Gamine:
When im sure you are destined for HELL

Ah, so you know who goes to hell and who goes to heaven?

davidylan:
This post is from Le Moor

The biblical genealogy from Adam to Moses cannot be millions of years in between. The bible never says anything about the earth being at most 7000yrs old, if you read between the lines in Genesis and Jeremiah . . . it is clear that there was a world prior to the creation of man.


You indeed are ignorant. There was nothing like HIV/AIDS some 100 years ago for example . . . should we then disregard its existence now?
There used to dinosaurs on earth just a few million years ago . . . why did they dramatically disappear . . . that is assuming they ever existed at all? How has science explained that?

Chapter and Verse please? I thought it was THE FALL that brought death into the world. If there was a pre-adamite world, what happen to them since there clearly would have been no death in the pre-adamite world?

These people are killed while in the service of their god. Did god forget about them? What happened to all the prayers they would have made?

This your god has a funny way of saying he does not exist, viz drowning, electrocuting, fuming his own ministers. I just can't stop laughing;
hahahahaha
hahahahahaha
hahahahahaha
ahahahahahahaha

tpia:
Your agitation here your personal quandary, because you have no answers for your fear.

Are you forgetting the fact that everyone has to die someday? Some go sooner, others go later.

Everyone will still die anyway.


Accidents happen. A pastor can also be involved in a fatal car accident. People die in various ways every single day.

Since you like to question God and ignore the existence of satan, i don't know what answer can ever satisfy you.

So in your opinion, it was God that killed the pastor?

can you ask yourself the same question about Jesus- why did God allow Jesus to die in such a horrible manner.

So what special earthly privileges does worshiping god confer if these followers of god are subject to exactly the same natural fates the happen to everyone, whether the love god or not?

Worse still, doesn't their religion say that if you love and trust god he will protect you from such incident?


If he does not and cannot protect from such mishap, then what is the point of loving and worshiping him. He is simply a big fat liar who takes all you time, efforts, money and love but returns zilch.

No doubt most reasonable people distrust this your god.

bioye:
How well do faith and reason mix? Hardly. A religious person has to use reason while studying in school and while seeking her daily bread but she has to suspend it when it comes to religion when things start looking illogical. Then there comes to issue of free will. Do we make our choices or are they predetermined by God? Can we change things through action, prayer? The science that makes air travel possible and gives us electricity invalidates Adam and Eve. yet it works. Prayers may work but it is never guaranteed.

Interestingly, I believe Faith is very useful and has its place in society. But are the current approaches the best? Why is the majority of Europeans atheist while America and Africa revel in Religious extravaganza? Is something wrong with the Europeans? Do they know too much?

Where do I stand? Do I believe in God? Christ? Religion? I seek understanding without offending anyone. But I still can't find that point where Faith and Reason can hold a productive argument. Somebody help me.

You have made some good points. Can I recommend this book by George Smith http://www.federacionatea.org/documentos/thecaseagainstgod.pdf


There are many other resources online. If you you like to know more, just let me know and I shall post the links here.

Here is a good book for anyone interested in some philosophy of disbelief.

How do you know you are on god's side?

Pastor AIO:
I will need you to tell me one of these convoluted arguments in order to properly respond to you.

Where can one start? Ok,, take the story the creation event in Genesis 1 & 2. How many different divergent Christians explanation exist today to try and make the account consistent with scientific rationalism;

You have got;

Old-earth creation
Young-earth creation
day-age creation
theistic evolution
etc.
etc.
etc.

HAve a go at these first

angel101:
@huxley have u also heard about death during child birth? and the statistics in nigeria?

Oh yes indeed. In fact, my very next door neighbour is a family from Nigeria that has only last week experience such a death in their family.

I don't know what the figures are for Nigeria, but it cannot be had to find.

In fact, if childbirth is such a miracle why is it so perilous to the health of the mother and child. Is it because god curse the woman to suffer pain during child birth?

Pastor AIO:
What, so if you saw a river flowing up hill you would believe in miracles. I don't think so, o sussicornian. I suspect (from what little I know of you) that you will first do some tests on a sample of the river water and then probably do some scientific tests on the hill itself. And if you come up with nothing you will invite other scientists to come and have a crack at explaining it. And if they can't come up with an explanation you will shelve the whole project as one of life's great unanswered questions still awaiting explanation. Pretty much like how the Egyptians built the pyramids still awaits explanation and how the early britons built stone henge still awaits explanation. Scientists are pretty damn good at pretending that things that they can't explain don't exist.

Dead newton talking? You are most definately hallucinating. A perfectly explainable psychological phenomenon.

Yes, you are right. That is not sufficient reason to believe in miracles. It would simple mean that that is a natural event that is not currently accounted for by our scientific theories. This situation would merit a lot of investigation to explain why the laws of gravity appear to be violated in this case.

If a miracle is nothing special, then why is it a miracle and why all the brauhaha about it?

Are you claiming that the Egyptian ancients built the pyramids thru miraculous means? Unfortunately, they did not leave any documents to explain brick-by-brick how they did it. So the exact methods are lost to history. The fact that we do not know how an event happened in the past does not mean that it happen by miraculous means, does it.

BTW, the great valleys of Giza in the Egyptian dessert is littered with failed attempts to construct pyramids. The engineers had not yet perfected the art of constructing pyramids, hence the many failed attempts. A lot is know about where they got their materials, how they cut the stones out, how they transported the cut stones, how the location of the pyramid was surveyed and set out, the mystical reason driving the entire project, etc, etc. Is any of these a miracle?

Now, did I say Newton has been found talking? Most certainly not. I would have been surprised had I not known it ia typical for religion-infected minds to completely misunderstand simple statements.

I asked, can you rule out the event of opening Newtons grave and finding him standing up and talking? You clumsily ignore my question. I wonder why?

Pastor AIO:
What is a Miracle?

what is a Naturally occurring event?

What are the laws of Nature?

Alas this issue can never be resolved? Why? Well because we do not know all of the laws of nature. If you do not know all of the laws of nature then how can you say whether they have been broken or not. Atheists can always fall back on the good ol' 'there's got to be a logical explanation' get out clause even if a full blown miracle were to occur before their eyes.
The belief that everything has a natural cause, yet accepting that we do not know what these natural causes are gives us plenty of room to move the goalposts as we please. An event is unexplained because we haven't discovered the laws to explain it.

Will we ever discover all of these laws? No. So we can always argue that a miracle was not a miracle.

Anyway neither of these positions is as ridiculous as the position of the Catholic church that first subjects an event to tests by a scientific team and if they cannot come up with a scientific explanation then the church feels emboldened to declare the event a miracle. Surely the representative of Christ on Earth ought to be able to tell the handwork of God without having to get clearance first from scientists to ensure that there isn't a scientific explanation and there isn't likely to be one in the near future.

But is it possible to rule out categorically some propositions as capable of occurring naturally. Take for instance.

1) Go to the grave of someone who died hundreds of years ago, Newton. Open the grave up and have Newtons rise from the dead and starts talking to you about the laws of gravity.

2) Find a river that is actually flow uphill.


Is it possible to rule out these events?

Brash!:
born again's are not gauranteed heaven!

nana:
Well,Yeah. Water Baptism don't guarantee u a place in heaven. It all depends on how u live your life on earth.

Significantly, you have failed to answer my question. I asked;

huxley:
Can anyone be born-again (or enter into heaven) without water baptism?

Supposing you happen to live in a regions where you are not able to be baptised. Could you consider yourself born-again?

Ujujoan:
So you don't think Child-Birth's phenomenal or even significant enough to be called a miracle??

For goodness sake, it happens all the bleeding time to all sorts of animal from gods, goats, chimps, zebras, snakes, etc, etc. What is so special about it. Are these animals births miracles too?

Can anyone be born-again (or enter into heaven) without water baptism?

Gamine:
Huxley i could back everything i say with scriptures

i don't have the time you have.

One, You said he hid his message, how?

Two, Your comparing Forgiving Sins to Restoring Auras, what is that

Can you explain to me what the following verses mean;

Matt 10:

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matt 24:

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



If you don't understand what "restoring aura" means I similarly don't understand what "forgiving sins" mean.