₦airaland Forum

Learn about who changed the bible and why;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfSuninCn0&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6m07nmLe60&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZnIJoY3ZY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDjZK8SMBxE&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogG38VaSG3I&feature=related

Enjoy

Ujujoan:
You can come up with anything you want to Hux, but as Christians, the law of God is there to ‘guide’ us. He has also given us the sprit of discernment, of what is right/wrong. Jesus was trying to teach us something with the adulterous woman, ‘Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone’. That doesn’t meant committing Adultery is right, but judging you neighbour isn’t either. what you call morals, is the spirit of God in Me, guiding me through right andnwrong. Thats what I beleive, you have a right to what you beleive.

What law of god do you live by? I presume you think slavery is morally wrong, correct? Why is it morally wrong? God never said it was wrong. So are you being guided by moral laws other than those given by god?

The problem with you Christian is that you are not consistent with your positions. When faced with moral dilemmas that are not cover by god's laws as given in the bible where would you turn?

BTW, the story of the woman caught in adultery is a fraudulent addition into the gospel of John. It does not exist in the earliest extant version of John and some modern bibles now admit this. If you are interested, check out the scholar book by Bart Ehrman, Misquoting Jesus,

http://www.amazon.com/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060859512/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217420888&sr=8-2



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUfSuninCn0&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6m07nmLe60&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkZnIJoY3ZY&feature=related

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDjZK8SMBxE&feature=related

GOD_LOVES:
Is there a God given Law against Slavery? No not directly, but I would say that now days it would falls under
" love thy Neighbour as Thyself" Matthew 22:39 ( law given to use in the New Testament)
But back in the old Testament , I do not know

Like most of the New Testament, this verse (Matthew 22: 39) was copied from the Old Testament by the redactor of Matthew. In fact, there is little that is original in the gospels (Mark, Matt, Luke and John). The phrase, themes and concepts are copied either from the OT text or from the Pagan cults of the time.

Here is Leviticus 19: 18;
18 " 'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.


So in spite of the injunction to "Love thy Neighbour" within a few passages of the same document god is giving instructions on how to treat the neighbouring tribes and how to take them into slavery. Can you see a contradiction?

It is a general academic consensus that the word "Neighbour" in this context meant your fellow-tribesman. So to an Israelite, a neighbour would be another fellow Israelite and not a Canaanite, Hitite or an Egyptian. Hence, the reason the Jews practised slavery by obtaining their slaves from neighbouring tribes.

Further, there is a long secular history of the Golden Rule. Socrates is known to have made similar pronouncements without the aid of god.

GOD_LOVES:
huxley
I believe God has given us the Morals, I believe he is the Law giver and Yes he decides what bad or good.

as to slavery, i would like it if you could give me a verse are part of scripture were God commends it( note: I am not saying that there is no such verse in Bible, I just don't Know of one)
Then we can talk about it.

Is there a God given Law against Slavery? No not directly, but I would say that now days it would falls under
" love thy Neighbour as Thyself" Matthew 22:39 ( law given to use in the New Testament)
But back in the old Testament , I do not know

What is the basis for your belief that god decides what is good and what is bad?

I gave the example of slavery - How do we know that slavery is morally bad?

Yes, there is no where in the bible in which slavery is condemned. In fact, god gives instructions on how to undertake this vile trade in the OT and in the NT god/Paul advises slaves on how they must behave. Imagine if god had said something like;

[size=16pt]
Thou MUST NOT take other humans as thy slaves, nor MUST thou sell other humans into slavery. Thou MUST NOT take away the freedom of other humans and treat them as thine property.
[/size]

Could that have been taken as an explicit ban on slavery. Look, I am not very clever, certainly not as god. But I came up with that one in less that 20 seconds.

Why would anyone take anything in the bible seriously. That being said, why the hell are these homosexuals subscribing to an institutions that clearly oppresses them?

Are there parts of the bible that should be taken metaphorically, figuratively or allegorically?

The Christian community is divided as to how to interpret various parts of the bible. There are those that are hard-core literalist who believe in the seven-day creation event, literal Adam&Eve, the Noah Flood event, etc.

There are many of have adopted a non-literalist view of the bible in light of the recent scientific discoveries about the nature of reality. The more science challenges the accepted biblical orthodoxy, the more ground the non-literalist yield to rationalism. The vast majority of Anglican vicars in the UK, for example are of the later inclination.

But the big question is - How do we know which parts of the bible to take literally and which to take allegorically or metaphorically? Having decided which to take non-literally, what non-literal interpretation should we ascribe to them? Should these non-literal interpretation be consistent with scientific realism?

HCH3COO:
Booooo . .
I have to go now. Talk later


To answer your last question, times have changed and you are not God. Asides from that, you were not commanded by God to take others as slaves. Cheers!

Was good chatting with you. Have a goodday.

HCH3COO:
Which one of God's laws? Well, remember I mentioned doing unto others as you want done unto you? That's in jeopardy here isn't it?

Yes, but how come in spite of this god was still commanding his people about taking others as slaves. If it was good for them then, why should it not be good for me now?

Where is our resident islamicist to stick up for his religion?

HCH3COO:
No you would not have vilated one of "god"'s laws but yes you would have violated one of "G"od's laws.

- we christians have this thing about distinguishing between god (idolatry) and God, so pardon me for nitpicking on the G.

Ok, which one of God's law?

olabowale:
@SeanT21:
How could you understand where Shaz is coming from when instead of explaining anything to you, she confused you the more and herself? Thats not nice. She lied to you with her convoluting presentation and you understand where she is coming from? If you do, please explain what she said, to me, because am at a loss, even more than what your initial question raised. What Shaz has done is to add layers of darkness on the darkness that you wanted somebody to disperse with the light of truth. I guess no one can find that in the Bible, uh? Come to the Qur'an. infact send me a mail.


@godpen:
You are kidding me, right? God foolishness. Wow. Paul have creadted a monster called Christianity.

You are back. You carefully avoided my post from the koran, didn't you?

HCH3COO:
The decision is not solely yours. Another human being is being forced to give up his/her liberty for your trading benefits.

So I would not have violated one of god's laws then, would i?

HCH3COO:
As for the shou shalt not kill verse.
- The important idea to take away from the bible is, there are times you interprete it metaphorically or should I just say figuratively, and there are times you interprete it literally. Comparing the 10 commandments of God to another passage taken out of context is like comparing apples to oranges. The interpretation of the bible is for the spiritual-minded. That is why we have pastors/preachers/etc. . . spreading the word of God, teaching us right from wrong.

How do we know which bits to take literally and which to take metaphorically/figuratively.

HCH3COO:
Morals to each person is subjective depending on his belief system. There are characteristics (seen as morals) defined by God by which we live our lives. We have been given the freewill by God to decide what we do. If we follow his teachings we will not go wrong, if we decide to deviate we put ourselves in danger of not inheriting the kingdom of God.

But what if I decide to trade in humans, just like the Israelite did, would that be disobeying god's will?

Consider the following two commands, separated by only a few hundreds of words in the bible;

Exodus 20: 13 Thou shalt not kill.

Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Which one of these should one observe and why? How do we decide which one take precedent over the other?

HCH3COO:
That is a question of opinion. In my opinion, let the society where you reside dictate the moral codes that govern their society. If they choose to live by God's standards honor to them.

Then in that case, there are no absolute god-ordained morals. Morals are therefore subjective.

HCH3COO:
Also, since you asked about bible verses condemning slavery. Even if slavery is not directly condemned in the bible, I am sure the children of God were/are warned to do unto others as is done onto them. If they can't take the punishment but continue to dish it out, they are already in violation of that warning.
- I will urge you to interprete the passage I have given as is related to slavery, which is what you asked about. Don't take it out of context.

What sort of law systems would that be that commands one, and in another breath commands the opposite?

So how would society found its morals. Should we base them on the holy books or should we arrive at them through a popular societal consensus? What if the popular consensus conflicts with god's commands?

HCH3COO:
Ask contemporary society how they are able to define it as wrong. Is it not comprised of people who do and don't believe in the concept of God? They must know something you don't. Being in the right state of mind and believing in God are not necessarily synonymous, but with an unstained mindframe you should be able to distinguish between right and wrong, good or evil. What say you about conscience?

If we can defined what is right/wrong, then god is redundant, isn't it? Society is capable of defining its own moral codes without appeal to a supernatural being.

HCH3COO:
Basically, i'm taking into account that you don't believe in God. But that still should not prevent you from conforming to laws established by popular consensus which deem it wrong

How does it matter whether I believe in god or not?

In fact, you have made a very good point in your second statement. So is popular consensus capable of defining what is morally good/bad. If so why do we need god's commands?

HCH3COO:
If it's not defined in the bible as wrong (which it is), contemporary society has defined it as wrong because forced labor to them (to us) is wrong, killing is wrong - all of these are wrong for the simple reasons that they violate established laws.

Pardon me, but you have not answered my question. Where in the bible is it defined as wrong? If contemporary society defines it as wrong, how did contemporary society come up with the notion that it is wrong.

Is contemporary society capable of defining laws binding on us all, which god has not defined?

HCH3COO:
I disagree, huxley. I know (believe) the bible has covered all the necessary bases.
To add on to that,
Irrespective of religion, people have their different priorities. Some expect the law to dictate the types of morals by which they live; others acquire their morals from people they see as their role models.

Yep. But how do we know slavery is wrong. Where the hell did god command it as wrong?

If god did not command it as wrong, why does contemporary society defines it as morally wrong?

HCH3COO:
If you even need God to tell you that slavery (the likes that dominated America's past) is wrong, you need your brain replaced.

So there are some things which are wrong which god has not commanded them to be wrong? How do we know what such things are?

huxley:
"Is an action morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is morally good?"

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory

Take for instance slavery. What is your moral opinion of slavery? What did god have to say about slavery?

"Is an action morally good because God commands it, or does God command it because it is morally good?"

Reference:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_command_theory

GOD_LOVES:
Huxley
first let me say that I had no idea you would be at least over 25. I am not nearly that age and would to apologize if I have been rude or if I have disrespected you. I have been taught to respect my elders, even if thy are not christians.

As for what he might aspect to come out of is house, I would have to say that Yes he could of had chicken or lambs in his House.
I have been into eastern Europe and have some cool things, like the way the people in small tows build there Houses, thy but all the buildings ( living, barn, ) in a You-shape and then thy put a door across the opining, thus thy would have all there animals in there House. This could be the way his house was built. Thus any of his animals could have come out to greet him.

As for non-Jewish nations being less human, You and I know that is Not true according to the Bible. We are all Created equal.
The reason that many Nations were ordered by God to be destroyed is thy went against the Jews in the first place, thy had been persicuting Gods People and that just would not sit well with God, If those Nations ( Amman and others) had left the Jews be, thy would NOT have been Destroyed.

You sound a very intelligent person from your post and I appreciate you coming back on this issue.

Let me deal with this first;

first let me say that I had no idea you would be at least over 25. I am not nearly that age and would to apologize if I have been rude or if I have disrespected you. I have been taught to respect my elders, even if thy are not christians.

Firstly,I do not think that you have been disrespectful to me. If you thought you were, I did not take offense. So don't worry about that. Anyway, nice to apologize. That is the hallmark of a great spirit.

Secondly, allow me to be a little pedantic, if you may. I want to pick on the comments highlighted in red. While it is good to adhere to principles you learnt as an infant, I find such comments a little unbecoming of adults. Could you not have arrived at the principles by reason alone? Supposing you had been taught immoral behaviour by your parents, should you adhere to such behaviour as an adult because there were taught by your parents? I hope I have appealed to your reason and not tradition.

As an intelligent person, I can feel the springs and wheels in your head working extra hard to come up with evasive answers to my question. Don't you think the simpler answers generally tend to be the better answers? Have you come across something called the principle of parsimony, also known as Occam's Razor? Check it out.

With all his might, could god not have invented a non-confrontational way of resolving the problems between his people that he loved and the people he did not love?

wirinet:
I do not understand the first part of your post, but one think i can tell you is that YOUR DESTINY IS IN YOUR HANDS. All individuals and societies that are progressing today are those that take their destinies into their hands. Religion led Europe into the dark ages, they were only able to progress after they started questioning religion.

Believing death is the end would make up make the best of the little time we have on earth here. It will make us appreciate each day we live because it would be lost forever. Each life would learn to make its mark with this one chance at life.

We do not need the incentive of everlasting enjoyment to live a fulfilled life on earth, Living right and positively impacting our offspings, families and society is enough incentive.

Not even I could have said it better. (Pardon my little jibe) This summarises just how you have succeeded in coming through the dark periods of religious despair and are striding forward with springs on your steps. Great - no superstitions to constrain you. Isn't that liberating?

wirinet:
Huxley,
I have never read any of Richard Dawkins book, i will not mind you sending me one.

You cannot blame people here for wearing religion on their sleeves, it is due to the hopeless condition in which we live due to poverty, and oppression. People need hope, any kind of hope. It also makes injustice and oppression more bearable by promising eternal punishment for your oppressors since you feel powerless against them

Many thanks for obliging. If you drop me your postal address on therationalist@yahoo.com, I shall forward a couple of books to you.

wirinet:
Well i regard myself as a Saganite, I adore Carl Sagan. I have a several books by Carl Sagan, but my favourite is Dragons of Eden, It follows the evolutionary progress of intelligence, it is brilliant. Read it and it will blow your mind

I am Based in Lagos, Nigeria

Thanks for the recommendation. I shall get a copy of Dragons of Eden. Have you read any of Richard Dawkins's books. He is great. You should read him.

How is it like living in a country that wears its religion on its sleeves. Is there a lot of god talk around you and how do you cope?

Please, allow me to send you some books. I ensure sharing books with people who like reading and I have got tonnes of books.