₦airaland Forum

tpia:
Its been a long time since I saw this particular verse, but I think you may be reading it wrong, Huxley.

I'm not sure but "saved through childbearing" here may refer to having a safe delivery. ie as opposed to having complications or a fatal one.

Don't understand. Try again pls

so a woman who cannot give birth has not chance of being saved?

But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
—1 Timothy 2:15, NIV

How are men saved?

Tayo-D:
@Huxley,
There is nothing wrong in owning a slave the way the bible supports. Like Lady puts forth, it is more like the Housegirl, Houseboy we have today and not the evil slavery witnessed in the 19th century. The main reasons why people were slaves in those days was because of debts. People become slaves so they could pay up the debts thy owe. That is why the bible mentions freeing a slave who pays his/debts. The guiding principle that governs all relationship is LOVE. That someone is your houseboy/housegirl/slave does not make them less a human. They ned to be treated with respect and given their rights. Think about these bible principles and tell me if they do not apply here:
* Do not muzzle the oxen that threshes the corn
* A laborer is worthy of his hire
Does love prevent you from having Butlers at home?
Slavery in the sense of sevitude to pay back debt isn't immoral, but slavery as we saw in America and Europe is absolutely immoral because it violates the principle of love.
There is no confusion about these laws at all. Again let me share a secular scenario with you. It is against the law in the US to kill, but the State carries out the death penalty. In the NT, the Bible says God gives the State the power to carry out punishment, this is the same scenario we see in the OT. No one can just kill randomnly due to grievance, rather the State will order the execution after an investigation (ever heard of the Urim and Thurim in the OT)?

Where did you get the notion that slavery in the bible was principally a way to settle a debt? There would have been some form of indentured servitude but the wholesale buying & selling into slavery was also a part of the slavery landscape.

Any form of transaction on humans where oneself freedom is limited against their will is immoral. Even worse is when one is considered as property and can be handed down to descendants as objects. This is clearly what the bible orders. Such slaves could not even inherit the masters wealth.


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Check out the following. Which of these would be unacceptable behaviour today and why?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)
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Which of these would be acceptable behaviour today and why?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Verse 29 does not mean that the person is a destruction person. It means that the person has been earmarked for destruction. This is how it read on New Century Version;

Lev 27: 29 'If anyone is given for the purpose of being destroyed, he cannot be brought back; he must be put to death'

What does it say in your Catholic bible?

~Lady~:
No you are able to discern that slavery is wrong in regards to the laws of God.

I don't understand your question. Are you asking how humans are supposed to know of the great thing love without it being an instruction from God? Because it is an instruction from God, you must have missed that part.

First of all, the slavery of that day was of servitude, u know like houseboy, housegirl, or maid, not the one invented by white people for oppression.

Don't mistakenly think that the context in which words are used today are the same context in which they were used back then.
For example brothers, sisters referred to blood brothers, sisters as well as cousins and nephews and such and in the hebrew language there is no word for cousin only for brother and sister. Unlike today and in the english language where you have the words cousins and brothers and sisters and nephews and nieces as separate words.

Lack of understanding of the tone in which people back then spoke has led to a lot of controversy in the Christian faith, that is why the Protestant Christians feel like crucifying the Catholic Christian for their beliefs. They lack the understanding of the time in which their Holy Book was written and therefore lack understanding in what is contained and what is meant.
Understanding history is an important factor in understanding the Bible.

It does become difficult however, because the Isrealites were freed from slavery. That's the kind of slavery that is condemned. The one that is meant to inflict harm or oppression on a people or the one that goes against the will of the person.

During the time of Abraham and Moses slaves were actually treated as family and if a person had no sons or daughters their possessions usually transfered to their slaves.

I hope this helps.

So moral behaviour is not absolute, but relative to time and place, correct? I thought god was the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Are his laws mutable then?


Check out the following. Which of these would be unacceptable behaviour today and why?

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.
(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

~Lady~:
No I didn't but I knew that would get you to do just what you did above which is go into detail for me. I am not using my home computer so I can't get on the youtube, not enough time to.


Oh I do see your point. It is in my Bible too, and that it is why I love having a Catholic Bible it has everything.

This is what is said from mine. This passage, termed the longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent.

It is still accepted as Scripture.

It was contained in the Old Latin manuscripts. So infact it wasn't missing.

Get you. Well at least, it appears you have learnt something new today. I hope.

~Lady~:
Proof as to how this is true?

Did you watch the videos?

Let me read a text from my bible for you. This is Mark 16. it says;

"Verses 9 - 20 are not included in two of the best and oldest Greek copies of Mark"

Let me give you another; John 7, it says;

Some early Greek manuscript do not contain 7: 53 - 8: 11.

That covers the story of the woman caught in adultery.


Why do you think modern bible publishers would care to put such warnings on the material?

~Lady~:
Hi Huxley, the simplest form that I see fit to answer your questions is that we are called to love. We are called to love God and our neighbour and ourselves. By nflicting pain on others you do not love them. Slavery is wrong because it inflicts mental, emotional, and physical pain.

The wrongs don't have to be higlighted or listed out in order for you to know that it is wrong. But paying attention to the commandments of God, you will see that in all of them is love. The opposite of love is hate and when you hate you cause harm, whatever will cause harm to yourself or others and in so doing to God because we are God's creation and it breaks his heart when we hurt, is wrong.


God's Spirit helps us to discern also. His Spirit helps convicts us, but that is only for those who believe in God and his Word.

So you are able to discern that slavery is wrong without recourse to the laws of god? How is it possible for humans to know of the great thing "love" is without instructions from god?

Tell, if you told Abraham or Moses or any other Jews who owned slaves then that slavery was wrong, how would you have have to justify your reasoning? What defense would they have had against your position?

Is morality time-dependent?

Tayo-D:
@Huxley,
If you care to read what and digest people's response so far, you will have your answer. But since the answers are not in line woth your preconceptions, you say others are incapable of answering.

Now let me help you a little by explaining some few things. The law as seen in the Bible was for a reason (please study Paul's letters to the Romans). The dos and don'ts mentioned in the OT were not by any means exhaustive. That one situation is not specifically called out does not mean that there aren't principles that should guide our judgement under such circumstances. This is why the Bible talks about the spirit and and the letter of the law.

There is a spirit behind the laws, which we can refer to as principles. These can be seen in secular settings in the form of a constitution. The constituion is never exhaustive but provides a principle to guide the future of a nation. Law suits are filed when two or more parties are in disagreement over the interpretation of the constituion to that situation. Judges (who can be considered like Pastors) make a judgment in light of their understanding of what the constituion says. They make a judment based on the principles that are enshrined in the constitution.

If we can apply that common sense to the Bible, then you have your answers to the issue of slavery that seems to be keeping you awake at night.

I get your drift. But where is the principle under which slavery is immoral? The bible goes to great lengths to condemn some very harmless behaviour but is silent on the moral issue of slavery. In fact, it does give instruction on how to treat slaves. Should it be condemn under Leviticus 19: 18?

Well it depends who is taken as our "neighbour". There is simply no moral debating and agonizing over the issue. Why would the bible say "Love your neighbour" and in almost the same breath give instructions on who to take as slaves?

I say again, under what principle is slavery immoral?

And these are the laws dictated by god himself. Check these out;


Exodus 21: 17 "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death."

Exodus 20: 13 "You shall not murder."


These two laws are separated by only a few hundreds of words. Which takes precedents and what is the spirit or framework for deciding which takes precedent?

You say I ignore your answers. Far from it. The answers thus far have been unsatisfactory. I shall repeat the questions again so that there is absolutely no doubt as to what the questions are;

1) Under what principle or spirit is slavery immoral in the bible given the Leviticus 19: 18 prescribes neighbourly love, but within the same text also gives instructions for the slave trade.

2) Under what principle must one refrain from putting to dead a child who curses their parent?

3) How would civil society today function with laws such as in the bible that are internally contradictory and inconsistent?

4) Under what principle should we reject Exodus 21: 17 in view of what Jesus said in Matthew 5: 17 - 20?

Ujujoan:
No, you've celarly given up on common sense. Thats why you ask irritating and useless questions. Why would you bother us when you have your brian?? Dont tell me you've got something else up there

It don't matter whether I got a brain or not. In fact, I think there's a big void up there. With what little grey cells I have got left, I manage to ask questions that you guys have proven uniquely incapable of answering. So it can't really be a handicap having only half a brain as I have.

Queenisha:
all the above have to be done peacefully.
Islam means peace

How do you make a peaceful war with infidels and deal firmly with them?

Can someone interpret these for me please;

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)
"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jews and Christians], until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued." (Surah 9:27-)
"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

On this one of my earlier threads (in the now infamous pseudonym therationa) I broached the morally repugnant subject of non-resistance against evil, one of Jesus's core messages. How many Christians live their lives by this standard?

Ujujoan:
The guy's just bodering between paronia and plain madness. Easy Hux, you might just find out you are beginning to hear things too

How can it be bad that I ask these questions? You guys have clearly given up on thinking.