₦airaland Forum

@ihedinobi2

I really don't want to continue this conversation any further. Thanks.

MrAnony1: I think you have used a lot of loaded language here amongst other things (Highlighted by increased font). You have assumed that she is being attacked, violated and taken advantage of in order to prove that she is being attacked, violated and taken advantage of. Let us examine your comment. Consider the following comment (I hope it illustrates the point I'm making to you):

"I would rather sleep with my wife but I sleep with my female colleague Jennifer because I am desperate to have children. As you can see, she is obviously taking advantage of me.
I may not physically resist her when she touches me even though I am entirely disgusted by the sex we are having but I let it happen because I am desperate for children. Clearly you can see that Jennifer from the office is attacking me
For victims like myself, when my co-worker starts having sex with me r[color=#000000]apin[/color]g me, I can only cope by forcing my mind to think I am outside my body watching the act. This is the only way I can deal with the experience of being "violated" by her.

Never forget that r[color=#000000]ape[/color] is always about CONSENT. Not purpose. The fact that I didn't resist Jennifer because I actually want a baby is irrelevant. All that matters is that I never actually said yes to Jennifer."

It seems to me that according to your argument, Jennifer is a r[color=#000000]api[/color]st in this case. Is this the position you hold?

Are you for real? Did you NOT see where I said on a CASE-BY-CASE basis it could be a case of ra'pe, but in some cases it is dismissed as subjective? THEN I gave an example to clarify a sample case?

MrAnony1: Punishment is simply the penalty inflicted for an offense. It has nothing to do with building the character of the offender. If you want to fashion a punishment such that it builds the character of the offender in the process, then that's another matter entirely. The aim of punishment is not necessarily to build character.

If you hold that punishment must necessarily build an offender's character as a whole, then you must hold that such things as the death penalty and paying a fine are unjust punishments because they don't come with a full re-education package for the "whole character"of the offender.

After all, If you do not build an offender's character but you make him/her pay a fine to dissuade them from the same offence in future, what prevents them from carrying out another offence for which you did not make them to pay a fine - if you did not build up their character as a whole?

For starters, it could deter the offenders from repeating the r[color=#000000]ape[/color] offense having had a taste of the pain themselves. This to me is a useful character.

EDIT: In case you missed the point I was trying to make (as people often tend to miss the point of my analogies). Regarding the statement "R[color=#000000]ap[/color]e is about consent and not purpose" in reference to your example, I disagree with you because she engaged in an act based on her own internal motivations. The will of her s[color=#000000]exua[/color]l partner didn't play any part in coercing her to have intercourse and therefore he cannot in any way be accused of r[color=#000000]ap[/color]e.

Alright then. I for one do not believe in the efficacy of death penalties, neither will I recommend rap'ing for a rap'ist, or any other eye for an eye. Your mileage apparently varies, and you are entitled to your viewpoint.

As for your claims of a "useful character" developing out of ra'ping someone who rap'ed another one, I have no further comments.

MrAnony1: Thanks for educating me on that. I agree that the instances that you have provided qualify as r[color=#000000]ap[/color]e

You're welcome.

MrAnony1: I don't agree that r[color=#000000]ap[/color]e has occurred here. The woman has practically consented in this case because she engaged in sex with the intent of having a baby.
Women are human beings with the capacity to have intentions and the ability to engage in actions that actualize their intents.
Your argument is like saying that you desperately wanted to give away money so you kept your money in an open place and when someone took it, you cried robbery. I don't see in what sense it is robbery if a person took away something that you desperately wanted to give away.

I deliberately added this one for the sake of completeness. It is the most subtle case of rap'e, and in some cases has been historically dismissed entirely as a subjective matter. Realize however, that this is certainly rap'e on a case-by-case basis. E.g. the woman has a husband/partner who she'd rather sleep with, but someone else is taking advantage of her because she is facing pressure about having no children. She may then not physically resist the attacker (in her desperation) even though she is entirely disgusted by the means to her end. For some victims, when rap'e is set into motion, they cope with the event by forcing their minds to think of themselves as third party observers. This is the only way their minds can deal with the violation they are experiencing. Such as this example would often involve such a coping mechanism. But never forget that rap'e is always about CONSENT. Not purpose.

MrAnony1: The aim of punishment is not necessarily to build character. I think a rapist deserves to be r[color=#000000]ape[/color]d in much the same way a murderer deserves to be killed.

Well I do not necessary believe that murderers deserve to be killed, neither do I believe that punishment is not aimed at building character.

Pray tell, of what use is punishment, then? If you do not build an offender's character but you punish him/her to dissuade them from the same offence in future, what prevents them from carrying out ANOTHER offence for which you did not punish them - if you did not build up their character as a whole?

MrAnony1: P/s: I am not granting the premise that r[color=#000000]ap[/color]e cannot build any useful character in an offender.

Now, I am curious. What useful characters can r'ape build in any offender?

MrAnony1: I understand A and C to be r[color=#000000]ap[/color]e. I don't think B is. Perhaps you can explain by giving an example scenario of where someone is "emotionally coerced" into sex to help my understanding.

As I said, most people do not see case B as rap'e because it is the most subtle instance of r'ape. Some examples include:

- Oga sleeping with the house-help who cannot say anything but willingly submits herself without physical resistance while her soul is wailing to her ancestors.
- Sleeping with an illegal immigrant in the US, knowing fully well that she has nowhere to run to, or anyone to report to. A sort of blackmail.
- Having one's way with someone who one has monetary (or other) control over: who has begged one not to do it, but which the victim cannot physically resist for the sake of the power you wield over the victim
- A pastor/rockstar forcing himself upon a church member/fan. She offers no physical resistance because she is currently deluded in the name of her faith/devotion, but her emotions are all confused because she clearly does not consent. She later realizes she was rap'ed in that instance.
- Classic blackmail:: A: "I know what you did last summer" B: "Please don't expose me" C: "Okay, shut up and bend over"
etc etc

In short, se'x is not only discordant when the victim physically resists the perpetrator. Sometimes physical resistance is not feasible at that particular time, even though the victim is conscious and old enough to understand what is going on. Yet the perpetrator is clearly rap'ing the victim because their consent is being overridden.

Now I will drop a really very subtle one here; the case of a woman that lets a man have his way without any physical resistance because she is desperate for a child. But she does not actually consent to the se'x.

MrAnony1: I don't think so. I believe that the victim should bear some blame if he/she knowing the danger deliberately walks into harm's way. . . .or if r[color=#000000]ap[/color]e is used as an appropriate punishment for a crime. Wouldn't you agree?

No I do not agree that rap'e can be used as a punishment for any crime, as I do not see how rap'ing them can build any useful character in any offender.

MrAnony1: I agree with the sentiment expressed here.

Alright then.

sailormoon: Poor InesQor, lol hope your aren't too tired?

Sigh. I guess I'll just leave the argument be. I think I've identified some perspectives on feminism (as seen by myself and the OP) that make our views too far apart to find any common ground. And there are probably other ones too.

ihedinobi2: Wow. InesQor, cats are fun animals to have and play with. But the big ones can kill you with a playful nip.

Okay I'm struggling with this analogy. Does this mean, like, rapists are fun to have and play with, until they act? So we can just wait till it eventually happens, by which time it will be our fault for having them around in the first case? Or, rather than domesticate the cat in the first case, like I have been saying, we wait till it does that mortal playful nip?

ihedinobi2: What adult woman thinks lightly of the average man's libido? Those girls were pushing their luck and if I have to argue that, we have a pretty serious problem on our hands. You don't stoke a fire whose heat you don't want.

They were pushing their luck, you say? So you mean the girl was wrong to have invited her boyfriend into her house, or to have followed him into his? What is a relationship or friendship about, if not trust? Who is the qualified arbiter?

Any girl that follows the advice you seem to be touting here will likely end up with paranoia and delusions of persecution.

ihedinobi2: Are the chances the same for räpe? What kind of friend would I trust enough to let in my house and share a drink who will drug and räpe me? Please, some scenarios are patently ridiculous. What you have described here is analogous to saying that policemen should wear kevlon at home too because they wear it on the job.

You spoke of attending a party where drinks might be spiked. By inference, not necessarily spiked by the one who will rap'e you. So why can't your friend spike your drink at home cos she wants you to get high, but someone else happens to take advantage of your ambiguous state to rap'e you? Is it that ridiculous to conceive? And, I really don't think I should touch that policeman / kevlon *sic* analogy.

ihedinobi2: Let him that does evil continue to do evil. Revelation 22, I think. Evil will not be destroyed from the earth except by that Divine Judgment for which Christians pray and wait.

This cannot in any way be made to show what you are trying to construe here. Does not Romans 12:21 ask you to overcome evil with good, and not be overcome with evil?

ihedinobi2: As I have already said, it is not a sense of guilt that prevents women from coming forward, it is a natural sense of shame. Inordinate guilt does compound it significantly. And that latter is why you should educate women on what their responsibility really is and what it is not to enable them have the firm ground on which to stand and denounce their attackers.

How does "educating them" that "sometimes it is their fault that they got rap'ed" help to reduce their shame if they eventually do get rap'ed anyway? This does not make any sense to me. Do you care to clarify?

ihedinobi2: If they never are, we shouldn't talk about lessons to "stay safe". The whole point of teaching is to pass on knowledge. That helps us to identify deceit and unfortunate circumstances. A potential räpe victim can learn how to identify amd neutralize deception and avoid unfortunate circumstances. If they possess this knowledge and fail to apply it anyway, they are culpable.

These ideas about identifying circumstances are highfalutin in the light of life's curve-balls. Why seek to avoid all unfortunate circumstances via any sort of instruction, if we can - in any way - prevent or dissuade the agents behind the circumstances in the first case? Isn't attack the best form of defence?

ihedinobi2: Wrong. They are not revealed because we are failing to teach correctly what a woman's responsibility in preserving the sanctity of her body is and what it is not so that in the event of such violations, the natural shame that is attached to räpe does not prevent them from denouncing their violaters. That is a lost virtue, the one you can really call 'worse'.

Hold your horse. It is our duty to teach a woman her responsibility in preserving the sanctity of her body? Not hers, to protect her own body from harm? Really?

@MissMeiya Thanks

@ihedinobi2

ihedinobi2: No. The whole earth today lies in the wicked one so there is great evil still in it. Today's world is like a violent ghetto. There are decent people in it but it is largely a melting pot for wickedness. It is not realistic to expect good from the world.

My world is not a violent ghetto though. When you say it is not realistic to expect good from the world, I wonder from whose perspective. Yours? You say the world is largely a melting pot of wickedness, but are you saying you're defeatist about the wickedness, and would rather try to avoid it than deal with it?

ihedinobi2: How are you fighting for a balance when you are vehemently denying any responsibility on the woman's part?

Again and again I have told you that I am not denying the woman's responsibility. I am only saying, stop living in that fantastic world where a woman's responsibility is anywhere near enough to keep her safe from rapis'ts.

ihedinobi2: There are impossibilities. Mostly of a moral nature, things that only Divine Judgment will make possible

And I guess I have to take your word for this?

ihedinobi2: You are saying that it is better to ignore any responsibility on the part of the woman even though doing so means that more women will fall prey to räpists?

I never mentioned ignoring responsibility. Are you saying that women who were rap'ed in India, who were not up to any funky business but were just doing their thing when they got attacked, were irresponsible? Or many other cases of people attacked for no reason at all? Any of those people could have been any of the women that you know, whether you deem them morally reprehensible or responsible.

ihedinobi2: Let me tell you, bro. It is not merely because women feel that they must have caused the räpe that they do not come forward. They don't because räpe is shameful. It takes away from a woman's self-esteem and her sense of dignity. Even if she knows without a doubt that it was not her fault, she won't easily talk about it or share the experience in any way./quote]
And does it not increase the shame when you tell her that she was the self-same reason she was rap'ed and another woman was not? How is this helpful, then?

[quote author=ihedinobi2]What you are doing refusing to face the woman's part in her own protection is why the situation will only get more frustrating.

I have done no such thing. The woman has a part in her protection, which she ALREADY knows except she is a child or unconscious. All human beings innately seek to defend themselves.

Castigating them for not attempting to defend themselves (in some other way that you THINK - as you do not KNOW for sure - is more likely to achieve results) is only easy to say from the greener side of the divide.

ihedinobi2: Oh, if you go to parties where drinks can be spiked and make no arrangement to save yourself from getting drugged and räped, how much concern exactly have you shown for your safety?

Drinks can be spiked anywhere. Even in your own home by your own friend / sibling if they have the mind to do that. So what's your point here?

ihedinobi2: Oh, the Bible says so. It's a perfect book that tells no lies. Not that everybody believes that though.

Still, we've been around on earth for a long time as a species and we have this host of moral faults in us that never fully go away even though we attack it with nuclear weapons. I don't see why I should expect now that whatever makes a räpist räpe will suddenly disappear because we talk even more to räpists. Räpe might reduce as a phenomenon but go away completely? I'd like to see how.

I've probably read the Bible as many times as you have. I would not say more times. Where does it say rap'e will continue till Jesus returns?

Are you one of those Christians that say rap'e is sometimes something that God intended to happen?

ihedinobi2: Women have always protected their bodies? As in, in every last case? Are you being serious here? Did you read the scenarios that texanomaly posted? How exactly would you say that the women in those scenarios protected their bodies?

How did they not protect their bodies? They resisted when they felt the guy was crossing the line. Or are they now also responsible for the repression of the guys' se'xual urges as well as their own?

ihedinobi2: Help me understand here. I used those analogies to talk of a woman taking measures to secure her body. What does you use of them now correspond to? That the measures are meaningless because räpists exist? Are we going to do a chicken and egg debate too?

The measures are not meaningless. The measures are only inadequate if we do not make them understand that it is NEVER their fault, and which in turn will help more of them to cooperate in bringing down their assailants.

In security, there is no system that cannot be compromised. All it takes is time. It is like a dance. The intruder keeps trying to break in, and you keep looking for ways to delay him/her and identify him/her. No system is safe. When you spend more time delaying the intruder rather than identifying the intruder, your system security will fail faster than you can imagine.

I never said the measures are meaningless. I am saying that blaming a victim for whatsoever reason is counter-productive to helping them. That is, assuming that helping them is what you are really after.

ihedinobi2: I'm not sure what "just a part of the picture" is supposed to mean. And I do not see any call here to stop educating wayward ones or to ignore educating them. As for blaming räpe victims, the question here is merely whether they can ever be blame-worthy. Because if they can, as most of the respondents here appear to both agree and disagree with, we should do something about it.

Alright then, the question is whether they can ever be blame-worthy? The answer is that räpe victims are never blame worthy. By definition, a räped person did not consent to be räped. This is simply ineluctable. Inasmuch as they did not consent to be räped, then they were beguiled or otherwise fell into an unfortunate circumstance. None of this is a sensible reason to "blame" the räpe victim.

ihedinobi2: As for the wayward ones, there are laws to take care of them. And they are warned everyday too by Christianity too. But while the law will cause the perp pain and discomfort and Christianity warns of frightful rewards for such wickedness, lost virtue is something a woman can mourn for the rest of her life. I think that if she can do anything to prevent that happening to her, she absolutely should. Don't you?

The laws are not enough to "take care of them". Tell you why? Because most of them are never caught. Most are never revealed. And why is that? Because people like you look for reasons to make them blame themselves for the horrible acts done to them. That in itself is a worse lost virtue.

ihedinobi2: Actually that is a poor analogy. Carelessness regarding the security of your body for a woman in this world is analogous not to driving around in your nice car or wearing good clothes but to driving your nice car around in a crime-infested neighborhood with no arrangements for the security of the car, like advertising your wealth in a violent ghetto without any effort spent to secure it.

No. Driving a nice car in a crime-infested neighbourhood means you went into THEIR domain, knowing it is crime infested. Like, say, a woman who goes to an ALREADY-KNOWN rap.ist's house! If you did not willingly go into their hands, then how does your analogy above apply? Or the whole earth belongs to rapis'ts now "till Jesus comes"?

ihedinobi2: That's because there was none. The whole question of this thread was about security, the security of a woman's body. You have as good as argued that there should be little thought spent on security and more on trying to eliminate the reality of thieves, that is, anyone who goes after anything that is not theirs to take for themselves or destroy, an impossibility until Christ returns.

Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't ask for little thought to be spent on security. I said there is a balance to be struck, and we always seem to be tossing blame at the victims rather than fixing the damn root problem. I do not believe there are any impossibilities until Christ returns (there again, with that). For instance there was a time it was considered an impossibility that a black man could ever be educated, let alone become president of the United states.

ihedinobi2: I do know. That is why I bothered to create this thread. This is some way to help protect women because I don't believe that they are utterly helpless. I wasn't putting words in your mouth, rather I was drawing your argument out to its logical conclusion.

If you DO know, then you should know better that blaming victims for WHATEVER reason is the very worst way to deal with these issues. Many rapi'sts are said to make the victims believe it was their fault they got rap'ed which is ONE reason they never come forward. Now you want to help them and you are also looking for a reason to blame them?

ihedinobi2: Nobody here is saying that räpists don't need any attention or that they are not culpable. We are talking about the safety of the woman while there are still räpists in this world.

The woman has always been concerned with her own safety. I do not know, nor have I heard, of any rap'ed person that was not concerned with her safety.

ihedinobi2: And there will be räpists until Christ comes again.

And you know this for sure, how?

ihedinobi2: Then we can stop wasting precious time teaching our little girls to "stay safe". My prayers are with all women in this world then.

I should add though that black people have managed to change many a "determined" racist (although I admit, I don't know the difference between a determined racist and an everyday racist. Is it like the difference between a determined räpist and an everyday räpist?). A colored person is today president of America. That is a few decades down from Martin Luther King Jnr. People are doing things to change paradigms all over the world and to protect the things they value. I really don't see how women must not do the same with their own bodies.

We teach them to stay safe in the hopes that it can deter the more weak-willed assailants. It is a struct of self-defense. But NONE of that is adequate to prevent ra'pe when the rap'ist is determined!

Women have always protected their bodies. I am not sure how we need to start telling them to do so rather than telling their assailants not to act like wild animals.

Did black people become emancipated solely by making them value themselves more? Or MAINLY by making their oppressors see reason?

ihedinobi2: Can any woman out there do anything at all to protect herself from räpe? Or are all women at the mercy of the whims of räpists?

ALL women are at the whims of rapi'sts. Yes, I said it. Many have been rap'ed by the very men they trusted to protect them from rap'ists. What then?!! Do you think any attitude or teaching would have saved them in that case? NO. The only thing that can stop rap'e is stopping the rap'ist himself/herself.

Rapi'sts cannot be reasoned with, because rap'e is about power. That is something I am trying to tell you here. When you have a power problem, there is only so much the under-dog can do, they are still at the mercy of the power-drunk.

ihedinobi2: What is wrong with such a focus? Why do we focus more on encouraging people to use strong passwords, hard-to-guess combinations, strong doors and high fences, trustworthy banks and strong armies? Is it not because we don't føol ourselves about the condition of the world we live in today?

Really? Why do we still encourage people to go to school when we know that not all schooled people are successful?

See I am a software specialist and I can tell you clearly that when your system is already compromised, hard-to-guess password combinations are just a waste of your time. When the intruder has a backdoor into your system, high fences and strong armies are nothing. If you do not deal with the root problem, you will be in an endless and regrettable loop.

ihedinobi2: So we can teach girls to "stay safe", can we? Why then do you claim that women can never be culpable if they are räped. Why teach girls to "stay safe" if nothing they do can prevent räpe? What exactly are you teaching them?

We teach girls to stay safe, but that is just a part of the picture. If you DO NOT stop blaming ra'pe victims and START educating the wayward ones that are inflicting the pain, then all the teaching is in vain. A simple Catch-22.

ihedinobi2: I don't see the parallel between your analogy and this thread. Call räpists whatever you want, not that I disagree at all, but I hope you can make an argument for the dissolution of all banking and security systems while you're at it. You have already begun with the above.

The parallel is simple: you do not blame people for being robbed by greedy people. Why blame victims of rapists?

Dissolution of banking and security systems? I can't see the joke here.

ihedinobi2: If a woman can never be culpable for räpe then woe betide women in this world for any day of the week it may just be anyone who is grabbed and there is absolutely nothing any woman can do about it except talk and perhaps kill.

In case you do not already know, this is the reality of many women. Most are just too afraid to tell you how they are molested at home and abroad! And whoever mentioned killing? Don't put words in my mouth abeg.

Rap'ists and potential rap'ists be like:

"After all I bought / did for her, she just has to comply"

"She wants this, she's just playing hard to get"

"She is trying to friendzone me"

"The way she's dressed, she's begging for it"

"I can see beneath her goody 2 shoes dressing and I know she bad, bad"

The last two examples above show that rapi'sts feel entitled and surely cannot be reasoned with, no matter what the victim does or did!

Dealing with the rapi'st and discouraging his/her ilk is the root of the matter. Always. Never blaming victims!

@ihedinobi2

I hope you know that women garbed in full burqa with only their eyes visible have been rap'ed?

There is NOTHING a woman can do to influence - adversely or otherwise - her chances of being rap'ed. Ra'pe is about domination, subjugation and compliance, enforcing one's own desires and inclinations at the expense of that of someone else.

In some respect, the problem is not far from that of black slavery and the stinky racism that it inspired and the xenophobia that followed it like a deadly ghoul. Is there REALLY anything a black person can do to change the mind of a determined racist? Or to protect him/herself from suffering consequences of racism aimed at him? NO!

I'm at odds why we're looking for possible reasons to blame the victims of crimes, for whatever reason under the sun.

There are generally 3 ways people get ra'ped.

A - When physically subdued / overpowered either by the number of offenders or by comparative sheer strength of one
B - When blackmailed or otherwise emotionally coerced
C - When inagent. i.e. unconscious (e.g. in a coma, drunk or drugged) or too young to possibly understand what's going on

In ALL cases, the victim is NOTHING ELSE but a victim and should never be blamed for whatsoever reason.

The victim was not asking for it!

When most people think of ra'pe, they think of case A. Some other sensitive ones think of case C as well as the popular case A. Few people understand that case B is ra'pe as well!

One of the most dangerous constructs popular in modern society is the notion of a "friendzone", that terrible, terrible place where someone you obviously dig a lot does not let you dig at all. So the "unloved" person is frustrated and will in many cases end up finding a way to ra'pe the object of their frustration. Well, wake up and smell the horse breath: NOBODY OWES YOU SEX. Well maybe a prepaid prostitu'te or gig'olo if you're into that kind of hellish existence.

sailormoon: People should think about taking steps to reduce the risk of bad things happening, no doubt. In the case of räpe, failure to do so does not however mean the victim is to blame (urgh this 'blame' word is irking me), indeed some women could probably take steps to reduce the risk, i.e. not playing näked poker with a convicted räpist in his prison cell but even still, she isn't to blame, the räpist is. Besides, räpe is a premeditated action, it's not involuntary, it's not like sweating, I know plenty of men who are capable of not räping women.

S/N: Fully aware that females aren't the only gender that are victims of rape, same with males being perpetrators.

One of the problems with this topic is that we tend to focus more on telling people to protect themselves, than in telling people not to behave like wild animals. And as you rightly said, räpe does not happen by mistake so even murder might be more excusable in some cases.

The criminal is ALWAYS at fault. Let's stop blaming victims in 2014!

texanomaly: Let's stop stepping all around the issue here. We all know Ihe is not really referring to a woman who walks into a group of men naked. Let's discuss something that is likely to actually happen.

1. Let's say a girl is on a date with her bf. Afterward they go to his place. They are making out on the couch. Things get hot and heavy. Suddenly she decides she doesn't want to go any further and says "NO". Does the guy have the right to continue?

2. A guy and the girl are at school. They are talking in his room. He kisses her. She does not stop him. Things start to go farther than she is willing. If she asks him to stop, is he obligated to do so?

Now, in both case the girl went willingly to the guys place. She allowed him to kiss and touch her. She may have even started it. Is he obligated to stop when she asks him to, or is he justified in continuing when she says no?

In all cases, the man should have stopped immediately.

As much as we teach girls to stay safe, we need to teach our boys to pick themselves up like men when a lady says NO. No means no. The moment she says no, switch off your di'ck and your heart and switch on your brain!

If I was trying to get with someone and she tells me no, I will free her entirely. If she was "joking" or "playing hard to get", that's her tough luck. She said no, and that is it. NO. Even if my wife (when I get married) tells me NO, I'd stop whatever I was doing. Of course since she's my wife I can't free her up forever, but she'd need to really convince me next time.

Summarily, people need to grow some balls and stop giving lame excuses for being wild animals.

This topic should NOT even be up for debate. Räpe is never the victim's fault, and there is no sense in justifying it for whatsoever reason. Rapists are wild animals.

Saying räpe is ever the victim's fault is like saying you deserve to be robbed for being so wealthy.

How dare you drive past me in that sexy car while I am just here dreaming and salivating about such cars! You deserve to be robbed. Not by me, cos I am not a criminal, but you deserve to be robbed by someone for showing off that flashy car indecently. When I hear that someone robbed you, I will say "You totally deserved it. After all, there are others who drive rickety cars or older models. Why must you be so flashy?"

See how foolish that sounds?

Any one that cannot control their se'xual urges and takes forceful advantage or obtains non-consensual benefit is an animal and actually deserves to be treated as such, or even worse.

Are the tracts meant to preach AGAINST Tithes or preach against FORCED / COMPULSORY Tithes (i.e. teachings that threaten and/or blackmail people based on Tithes)?

LarrySun: Winged fowl inside an egg?

Oh! Come on, give unto me a break, sir.

LOL! Wait!! When an egg hatches does the bird not have wings? Na wa oh

Oya make I leave matter.

Martian: huh?? I think the joke is on you.

Whoever the joke is directed at, it was funny. So I laughed.

LarrySun: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind; and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

Genesis 1:21-22 KJRB.

And who says the winged fowl was not inside an egg?