Business › Re: Is It True That Mmm Nigeria Has Crashed by ipain: 1:58pm On Oct 12, 2016 |
tunezvic: just because you dont have the balls to take the risk does not mean you should condemn the scheme.. mmm is alive and moving not even your negativity can crash it.. take the risk and make it .  now I am thinking of building a system like MMM, make my millions or billions and leave people to their own mystery  |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 12:13pm On Oct 12, 2016 |
misspicy: I have noticed the fat tummy too,more reason I'm getting concerned.
Funny enough,I'm still slim but I fear for the future  i wore my brother's shirt awhile back and he was just laughing at me. |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 5:13pm On Oct 11, 2016 |
PaperLace: Are you the counsel to the accused?  I actually came in, ready to drop my dissertation on an overflogged issue, then I saw hypocrites prescribing pills they can't swallow_ I couldn't help being entertained.
It's ever since I joined Nl that I saw people preaching divorce at reckless abandon, in reality...we have more of single married couples, forgiveness, more forgiveness and lots or healing processes. Divorce should most times be the the last resort.
Like you said....he should sit up. Before it got to this stage, there has been a disconnect. I am not saying she isn't wrong, she is wrong very wrong_ she had vows to keep and I am sure, more than anyone else, she wants to keep them. Most times, one can't do it alone. At this point he should follow your advice and 5mins-madness.
I no get strength to type, I have headache...should I take panadol or paracetamol? k |
TV/Movies › Re: AY's "A Trip To Jamaica" Rakes In N80Million In 10 Days by ipain: 4:18pm On Oct 11, 2016 |
TheRealGEJ: Edo actually but spent most of his life in delta and can speak the urhobo fluently oh okay. The guy is clear description of ACTION and CONFIDENCE even if you don't know jack about what you do lol. People are just saying his movie is wack blah blah but are failing to read the underlying lesson. |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 4:09pm On Oct 11, 2016 |
tugar: Thanks for the wonderful advice, not that I'm being rigid but wants her to be strong cos I don't always be around, now I'm due to travel to see them this weekend, hoping to confront her on this issue ,but I've already knows the outcome "crocodile tears" I'm human though, still have it at the back of my mind that she's there cos of financial security. Hmmmm... Sir, when people think about Marriage, all they think about is bliss, excitements, fun... hardly do they consider the kids, their welfare and so many problems awaits them. I have grown to take children's issues VERY serious. I don't know why, I have found myself even crying because of my elder brother's daughter's welfare. She is not my daughter, just my niece but anything about her that appear like her future is being mishandled, it makes me freak out. The other day, I was speaking with my elder sister over an Internet call since calls to switzerland is crazily TOO expensive. My elder sister could feel the anger in my voice, she could feel the agony in me and right there why speaking, tears were running down my cheeks because of my little niece. So, my elder sister told me point blank that she is worried with way I get angry on my brother and she started begging me on his behalf. I am not her father, I didn't give birth to her and but I believe that a child's future should never be tampered with. In same vein sir, for the sake of you children's future, please, find a way to handle this issue gently. In situations like this, I always ensure that when people hear my story, they wouldn't blame me. Yes, it might require you to act dumb. I know you are angry, I know you feel cheated, I know you feel betrayed despite toiling day and night to ensure that you provide for the family and in the end, you are under-appreciated by same woman you do it for. I am more concerned about those kids future, than you or your wife right now but their future depends on what you and your wife agree on. Do you love your wife? Do you still have a modicum of love for her? This is very important question. If you still do, even if the size of the love is as small as mustard seed, it can be grown into giant tree. Show her your evidence, ask her where you have gone wrong and how would she like to be treated or what she wants. After that talk make arrangement for a family outing, as in everybody going out and then tell her next would be just you and her. Just open up and ask her to open up too. So that you guys can get to the root cause of all these problems. I gave this same advise to a woman at one time in my life wherein her man engaged her and forgot it the ring lol. Well, things escalated and she was misbehaving. The man found out, became furious. However, I told her to open up, do not leave anything unturned and that her man will automatically do same. At the end of the day, she found out her friends were giving her man bad advise about her. It was things they told the guy that made him change over her out of jealousy. And since he stopped paying attention to her,she started misbehaving as well. It happen and that's women. You say want her to be strong, then you have got build that faith in her. Sir, I had a Togolese come work for me yesterday and I learned something HUGE, something most rich people, most educated people, most sophisticated people might not teach me. They are not rich. In fact the man ran to me few days ago to help him 1k from the proposed money I would pay him for the job. Because of that, I quickly told him to come and start yesterday. It was just a plaster walls for me. When he did the first work ( fix security door in our house), he came with his 2 daughters and their 2 dogs and his wife joined him at night. On this second job, his assistant was his wife. They carried sand on their head together. The wife went to fetch water used for mixing the sand. I was moved that I had to join her in the first one. When they requested for pure water, I went to buy it BECAUSE of the wife. She even told me I should have given her the money to go buy herself. I just smiled (like I usually do) and told her not to worry. Now, it got to a point, she started explaining certain part of the plastering process, telling me not to worry and that after this, the husband will do this and do that. This simply explained that she has been going with him to other ones. Jeez I was moved. They are not rich, they manage with what they can collectively bring home. BUT one thing they showed the world that day is that they are UNITED. In fact the 2 kids were here yesterday and also with their dogs  Do you even know if someone is giving your wife bad advise? Do you know the kind of company she keeps? Who are the people leading her on? Sir, I want you to understand that money isn't enough. There are things that money CAN not buy. Like I said, women are babies, no matter their age. You have consistently teach them the way of life, advise, pampering, nurturing etc. It's a full time job! |
TV/Movies › Re: AY's "A Trip To Jamaica" Rakes In N80Million In 10 Days by ipain: 2:53pm On Oct 11, 2016 |
fratermathy: I expected it. The movie was worth the penny I spent watching it. I'm happy for AY!
Warri, Warri, WARRI,
THEIR FATHER!
Warri nor de carry last. AY repping Waffcity well. Na yoruba boy. Sorry |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 12:02pm On Oct 11, 2016 |
PaperLace: lol. 'but iyam serious na.  Undertaker just destroyed Rey Mysterio on this thread, he didn't even stand a chance with all his flying tactics. eh, we know. Can you let that slide? There is a serious matter to be discuss because lives are on the line and I am yet to see your contribution on this thread. |
Technology Market › Re: HP Pavilion Dv6 I7, 500g, 4g Ram With Beat Audio Sound! by ipain: 10:13pm On Oct 10, 2016 |
aril: Still available.
Also available are
HP D4 6g ram 500hd with super beat audio
Macbook pro i7; SOLD
Hp D7 i7 4g ram 500hd with beat audio
Macbook pro i5 4g ram very clean
Acer super Slim 500hd 4g ram
Samsung Mini N150
Chrome book and lots more!
Still available How much is the acer? Can I see picture? What Is the windows grade on it? |
Family › Re: Woman Batters Husband During Sex Over Huge Manhood In South Africa (Pic) by ipain: 9:32pm On Oct 10, 2016 |
steppin: Small pee pee, dem go complain. Big pee pee, dem go still complain. Wetin we do dis women sef? wrong. He probably does not indulge in forplay, romance and above all make her really wet befor entering leading to pains. Forget that thing. The guy no sabi. His idea of sex is just to enter. Finish. |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 5:15pm On Oct 10, 2016 |
byvan03: If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones. You can't be a cheat and claim another cheating person is dangerous because a woman was mentioned. Hypocrites are disgusting. I don't play that card, as in call women whorees when they double date cos guys do it too. I am just speaking based on general account. |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 5:09pm On Oct 10, 2016 |
tugar: I wanted to ignore ur low IQ but I had a rethink, on the health tread I seek 4 advice to save a situation for a pal, why bring it up here? if u don't have what to contribute on this pls stay off. He has a point sir, though hash in his approach. Permit me to call you Sir because 10 years out of my current age means I am a kid in comparison to your experience in life. However, permit me to also state that you are not paying attention to salient vibes by discovery of your own exploration on your wife. I might be young, sir but one of the first things I learned out of fear is what you have described in your threads--which is wife seeking sex outside. In a bid to prepare for the future, I spent time reading stuffs about female sexuality and I think I know enough not to fall in your current state. Sex isn't food but women wants it, they may not tell you. See, it takes the grace of God for a woman not to fork another dick wherein her husband is neglecting her. She wants it sir. Please give it to her. Be her friend. Honestly, I was taking the stance of previous posters who wanted you to kick her out but Dyt and Co made me had a rethink because I had no idea you created previous threads on this same issue. I went over your threads to have an idea before commenting. A woman's brain is her emotion. They act based on emotion most of the time and if you are not there to channel that emotion strategically and effectively, they often fall astray. They are called weaker vessel for a reason. This year I tested 3 cases with 3 different girls and all fell for it. We never had sex, however if I had wanted to take to next level, I could have succeeded WITHOUT hitches. Not saying all women cheat but the chances are high if any guy can excite a lady's fantasy that she has been nursing for long. I do understand that she should have spoken to you over any problem, but have you been open to her or have you been rigid and cold towards her? What is the level of your communications with her? Are you friends? What if she has been longing to visit some places, just you and her? Have you tried to find out that? How about surprises? This is just one fantasy I could tickle in one of the 3 girls. Why did she like the idea? She had been nursing it, but her boyfriend wasn't there to get it done. He probably just go visit, they take pictures in same environment, no adventure, nothing. I know you work hard to feed, shelter and lead the family and the fact my epistle te to lean in her favour does not mean I am being insensitive to your existence. Do I have to remind you that this is why we are called "man"? We were born "man+age" things. Where born to "man+ufacture" things. It's a price we pay for upholding this gender status, sir. Before you kick her out, ensure you have at least tried to control the damages. I perceive you are being rigid, loosen up sir, at least for the sake of your kids if you love them, which I believe you do. You can do this. Women are babies no matter their age, pet your wife.  Sometimes things I read that cause problems in marriages makes me laugh because I can easily deflect them without ado. On a more serious note sir, please take time to study female sexuality, it helps. And also build your friendship with her. Take her and the kids out. Buy her stuffs, excite her fantasies, surprise her. Above all, explor ALL options before you quit. If after doing ALL this, she still doesn't change, then you are free to let her go. Nobody will blame you. |
Romance › Re: I have never been so lucky in love, till genotype want to destroy it by ipain: 12:10pm On Oct 10, 2016 |
KissChris: One word : Pray yeah typical Nigerian. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 10:41am On Oct 10, 2016 |
Diddyydiva: @Lanicky, thanks so much for your words, sincerely I have no feelings for him ( romantically) I just felt I should have done better. I did the right thing in the wrong way . I know better now. Thank you  BTW. We are friends now, we have nothing against each other 
Benita27, Thank you too
Twaci, I have moved on. Just reflecting on the past to avoid reoccurrence of such mistakes. Thanks for the cake . How did you know I love chocolate cake 
Ipain He never cheated, he was a good guy with a wonderful heart. The problem was with me lets say I was infatuated you dig? But its been settled now. I was just reflecting . Thank you for the birthday day wishes too.
Thanks guys  To be honest with you, when I read stuffs like this about a lady leaving the guy she described as being "nice guy" it breaks me and it's one of the reason I said I do hide romeo in me. I don't know why ladies do this, you just make it look like "nice guys" are disgusting and discriminated, like it's a taboo to be nice. I thought all that we humans seek was someone that will love us an treat us nicely. Mehn, this your post just make remember my experiences as well. I was then forced to stop being nice at some point, I became even hostile to ladies like jake2much in previous post. You might Jake2much Is hating ladies , no reason but I know why he acts that way. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 6:29am On Oct 10, 2016 |
Diddyydiva, happy birthday girl  hello everyone, wish her a happy birthday. |
Dating And Meet-up Zone › Re: Ladies Lounge..Life,Love,Dressing,FoodAnd Everything Ladylike,ladies Get In by ipain: 6:18am On Oct 10, 2016 |
Diddyydiva, happy birthday girl  hello everyone, wish her a happy birthday. |
Romance › Re: Those Big Aunties That Disvirgin Us When We Were Small by ipain: 5:33am On Oct 10, 2016 |
ChappyChase: jahahajaha!!!!!!!!!!! oh boy this your comment just douse all the anger wey dey my body!!!!!!! really? Na so my brother. Anytime . Remember the thing eh, na laugh I dey laugh. Where I got such confidence is still unbelievable to me. Actually, be careful what you do in front of kids. When think about how I hear and record event, even as little 3 years old, I laugh when some fools say something "he is just a kid and does not know he is doing" or "they just kids" You see eh, among those people that were quizing me on that day was our maid. Maid way no pure and she had the audacity to ask me what I was doing. I think that was were I got my confidence from. To be honest, that maid never had a child till today. |
Romance › Re: I Have Seen A Girl My Heart Beats For, But There Is A Problem by ipain: 12:08am On Oct 10, 2016 |
Sexxkillz: [color=#000030]You're already playing games. . . Embrace your player status. [/color] what happened to ogugua? Did she dump you?  |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 11:43pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
eyinjuege: Yomieluv, you should have just kept quiet.
No one asked you or greatgod2012 for clarification on what she meant by the post of you cheating husband. It could have just been a general statement.
You have single handedly told more people about your indiscretions.
Those who didn't read that your thread before you hurriedly deleted it now know because you couldn't just ignore.
Anyway, next time sshhhhh....
Learn to pick your battles wisely.
Scores 1-0. She get you for this one.
Abeg, na joke o  a lesson for everyone lol. Never use your main account to post sensitive info. |
Family › Re: For Experienced Married Men Only by ipain: 11:39pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
byvan03: No mind that shameless man, In threads like this he should hide his head in shame. Barely one year of marriage and he is already Keziah . lol. The reason you guys had used to get to him is because he used his MAIN account to reveal he cheated. It's same reason why I have over 10 handles and still counting so no one uses one of my thread to attack me cos nairalanders got bad mouth |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 10:48pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
lanicky: Hmmmmm... It's obvious you still have feelings for him.. (I don't wanna say love now)  You left him for a reason right? Yeah, maybe you noticed he changed from the guy you used to love... Or maybe, you felt or was sure he was cheating on you..
Or .. Maybe you felt he wasn't good enough for you... Maybe you wanted more..
Or Maybe, you wanted attention and he's not giving you... Or you just wanted him to love you like you loved him, but he didn't do that...
Right now, you're remorseful cos you feel what you did was bad... It's not so bad if you ask me, but you didn't follow the right step...
You should've expressed yourself.. Let him know how you feel, and what you want in the relationship and what he's not doing right.
If he doesn't change...then you can tell him you're not ready to continue with the relationship...
But the did has been done already... You can't change that. But dear, you can change something, You can still talk to him...if you're strong enough to do that.. Don't ignore him totally like an enemy, except he did something you can't forgive. Let him know you don't hate him...All you wanted was happiness.
The most important thing is..
DO NOT GIVE ROOM FOR RESENTMENT. YOU DID THE RIGHT THING BY LETTING HIM GO.... IT SHOWS YOU LOVE HIM.. PLS, DON'T DESTROY YOURSELF WITH ANGER. Be Strong  I am waiting for her to reply my questions before I speak my mind over it. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 7:51pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
Diddyydiva: Seems this is the right place to ask a question that has been on my mind for quiet a while now...
The question is ......
Is it ever possible to break up with someone without hurting them?.
I did break up with a guy I felt I was doing a favour letting him go, Yea am not the type who play games and am kind of too honest. Well this ended up bad for me that I even wished I should have just let him be, probably start acting weird till he freaks out. ( you know what I mean ) .
Although something tells me I did the right thing but I still question my actions sometimes.
Could I have handled the situation better? Are there other possible ways to break up without hurting the person.
I'd like to learn from intelligent people here.
Cc
Laveda Twaci Missspicy Sleekyshuga Mizmycoli Lanicky Ishilove
And any other intelligent persons who sees this  If I may ask, what led to you breaking up with him, why did you accept to date him in the first place? Did he cheat on you? Did he treated you badly? I really want to know. |
Politics › Re: Corruption: China MP Sentenced To Death by ipain: 6:51pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
PassingShot: Stop hiding behind a finger in your bid at supporting corrupt persons.
If any past president had done a quarter of what PMB is doing at fighting corruption, perhaps Nigeria will have been better.
PMB is the only person with any chance of defeating the cancer of corruption in Nigeria.
And those of you finding one reason or the other to support those who pauperized you through corruption, you should keep quiet when things go south for you. If I speak my mind, I will surely get a ban. The person you quoted didn't say Buhari isn't fighting corruption but he is being selective and very bias in his judgement which very glaring and obvious to everyone. What he also said is that Buhari should spread it to people in hist court as well. Didn't Sahara reporter reveal that Buratai has property in Dubai? What about his aide who collected bribe from MTN? You are just one wicked and selfish person in your judgement. God will punish all of you who leave truth and defend lies! What stop Buhari from further investigation when the new broke out on Buratai and his aides? Nonsense! |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 5:29pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
bibijay123: My fears......
Marriage: Maybe it is because of the many failed marriages i know. Or maybe it is because i am afraid somehow the love will die and i will be stuck with someone i no longer love. I don't know but it scares me alot, even the tot of it is enough to make me but its crazy that i love weddings n the whole glitz that comes with.
Pregnancy: I love babies and i would love to have some, some day so i don't know why dis scares me. I am not afraid of the pain of labour, no i can deal with the pain. I am also scared that wen i finally get over this absurd fear i may not be able to conceive becos i was told i hve to start my family early due to some health issues.
Poverty: Just the name is enough to scare anyone. I don't want my kids to experience any shiit i went tru in life. I want them to have the best, that is why my ' Hustling mode' is activated now and its connection is so strong. I am scared of being married n poor.
Falling for the wrong man: I have seen men beat up their wives in front of their kids, i hve seen women cowering in fear just at the mention of their husband' s name. It is not just for my own sake but for the sake of the innocent children we will bring into d world. Your personal text alone says a lot. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 5:26pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
jake2much: most girls are bitches a girl will only stay wit u once u hav money.i knw wat am saying if u neva xperience pain in reationship u dont know. calm down bro. I used to be like you on here. I know what you are feeling. But I will give you same advice I was given "If you close your eyes because you do not want to see a devil, you won't know when an angel will pass" I never took that advise and truly, I missed out on an angel. It was too late before I realised it. So bro, who broke your heart? Gist us. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 5:16pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
DissTroy: [b] Every woman (including the females who strut the red-light districts) is emotionally wired to crave and give love even if she's been heartbroken a thousand times and she refuses to admit it.
The problem is, ALL women fall in love for selfish reasons, even the most noble woman.
If you ask any girl who's registered her presence on this thread why she fell in love with her boyfriend or why she'd fall in love in the future, she'd reply with one, two or all of the below:
1. He makes ME laugh and happy.
2. He respects ME.
3. He listens to me , shows concern about me and gives ME attention when I need it.
4. He makes me feel special and like a top priority in life.
5. He looks like someone who'd fit into the kind of future I WANT.
Notice I deliberately left out financial benefits? I want to keep the argument straight.
Every woman's reason for falling in love is conditional. She doesn't set out to better the guy's life but she's out for how he fits into her agenda.
She might be the most loving and faithful girlfriend in the world but her reasons for loving you are selfish all the same.
The moment you stop making her laugh, happy or making her the center of your world (even if you're still faithful and rock her bed like never before), she'd start thinking of someone who'd make her feel the way you used to.
Men, on the other hand, love selflessly when they fall in love.
It tastes like quinine when you absorp it but it's the truth all the same. [/b] Actually bro humans love for selfish reasons. Women are humans an therefore selfish. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 3:09pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
dollyjoy: Following.
Am scared of getting married to the wrong guy. Have some married friends and their stories isn't too encouraging. Epp me God . same way I scared for marrying wrong girl. It's life. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 3:03pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
IamNawty: my own fair is not to be able to takia of my parents.. Asin the thought drive me nuts . I love love love doing for them.. I rilli a wanna be successful , not bcus of me first, but because I want to takia of mum and dad and I don't want them to ever lack anything good at old age hmmm... your words remind me of my elder sister's prayer which is : "oh God, please help me grow fast so I can take care of my mum" she kept her words and even built a house for my mum except mum didn't last to enter house  |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 3:01pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
Mskrisx: My only fear in life is being a poor girl... I just wan be rich... I dunno why I have attached a lot of relevance to this particular feeling.
Dear lord, please help your girl. She Loves the good things of life. You can be rich if you apply adopt certain principles. Shared some with a lady not long ago. Please review last 2 pages |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 2:58pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
Laveda: Lol I believe time would change all of that. At one point in your life, you will. you seemed the most matured around here with broad insights. Kudos. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 2:55pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
Girl360: So my own...
I don't believe in love..
As in two people "falling in love"
I always doubt guys when use those three words: "I love you"
I've even been told I have a psychological problem because of that Lol
Yeah, so that's it... I don't know if that's a fear it is fear and I just hope you do not miss that "great guy" I am speaking from experience. Because of my past, I allowed it to rob how I view girls. I used to share my story and it got so bad that someone here quoted "if you close your eyes because you do not want to see a devil, you wouldn't know when an angel will pass" When it happen, my mind flashed back to those quote. Be careful, lighten up because if you find you missed someone who could make your heart sing with joy, it is often more painful than heart break. I usually do not show my real self to ladies ( I mean that guy that sings, write poem, get her surprise gift, check on her etc) and it takes "the one" to naturally make me do this (I had reset my heart to function that way  ) Cos I am confirm lover boy, a romeo, just had to bury that guy for safety reasons. Since that experience, I have learned to be careful not make same mistake and strike a balance. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 12:13pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
misspicy: My biggest fear 
I need suggestions on How to avoid it too Someone please heeeelp  don't eat too much and drink everything for enjoyment. Do not lie down too much because you don't have anything stressing you. That's how I started getting fat tummy  and now I am working to reduce it. It's easy to get fat than losing fat. |
Romance › Re: Ladies Lounge..life,love,dressing,food And Everything Ladylike.(season 2) by ipain: 12:10pm On Oct 09, 2016 |
OBTSubtle:

I really don't know.. I don't want to be kept..
But if as a woman, you can figure out a man's life and set the things you know aren't right.. Walahi he's yours forever..
And it's really not difficult.. Y'all just lazy..
If he's the type who loves going out, hanging with friends and leaving you at home.. Get to know his friends, win their respect.. Don't force him to stay at home with you, he's not an animal, if his friends respect you.. They'll make him spend more time with you..
If you're observant and wise, the man is yours..
It's not food or sex..
No woman will ever cook better than mother.. No matter what she cooks..
Sense keeps a man.. brotherly, you have said it. They do not want to OBSERVE and they are often not wise enough. |