₦airaland Forum

Hi rozz, I can understand what you are going through because I've been through it myself (the doubts, the questions and lack of adequate answers to these questions by those close to us). I can assure you, you are not alone in this.
Luckily for us, there have been those who have dedicated their lives in finding and giving adequate answers to these questions and we can pull from their works as we push on in faith. Please be rest assured that all the main tenets of the Christain faith including the trinity is firmly intact and unshakable.

This video by Ravi Zacharias is a good conceptual understanding of the trinity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kreSbagj_RM

If you would like a longer and more detailed lecture series that dive more into the theological aspects, kindly ask. I would be more than happy to recommend some videos.
Have a good one.

PS: just as an aside, on your worry about the word trinity not appearing in the Bible, there's a powerful statement that I heard a long time ago. "Words don't have meanings, meanings have words".
Basically concepts come first, then we later come up with words that encompasses these concepts. Eg the idea of individuals starting enterprises has been around long before the word "entrepreneur" came into existence and the idea of justification has been in the Jewish thought long before Paul wrote the word justification in the NT to encompass ideas that had been forming since the days of the OT prophets.
So you need not bother ,cos even though the word doesn't appear, the idea itself is deeply rooted in the gospels, the letters of Paul and even goes all the way back to the OT.
As for the part of if the Bible has been corrupted. This video might help in giving a good overview (it's a bit long but it's worth it).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ5cgQUJnrI

He would be found today in Jesus name

Maximus69:
Accepting Salvation has to do with knowledge! John 17:3

We need accurate before we can fit in to God's Kingdom, otherwise Jesus won't have taught his followers so much! Ephesians 4:13; Colossians 3:10; 1Timothy 2:4

You are really taking your scriptures out of context but anyway ,it is well..

Maximus69:
Nobody is here to puff up Sir!

We only do well to acknowledge it if we notice someone knows better than we do!

That's why the Pharisees decided to kill Jesus because they felt he humiliated them in front of the people who used to hold them as knowledgeable, please when you notice someone knows better than you, just ask for his source of wisdom that's all.

In the day of Judgment only those who have the accurate knowledge of God's word will be saved! Romans 10:2-3

The Bible begs to differ on that... It's faith in Christ that saves not any type of works or deep knowledge. Salvation is purely a gift from God to anyone willing to accept it... Ephesians 2:8-9, John 3:16, acts 16:30-31 and Romans 10 is actually also making the same point..

But Anyway,it's fine sir...

HappyPagan:
You just realized that I don't fear God? You're quite slow.

I don't think that was necessary but ....that's just me

Dtruthspeaker:
You mock and ridicule the murder of a Mighty King's Son and you think you shall escape the consequences?

Or you think you shall be able to bear the consequences when they shall come? Most especially when the King is watching and hearing you while you mock on and on?

In your world, people have suffered very greatly for shits Greatly less than this, (ask the man who bought Buhuri's daughter's phone).

Mmnh!

It's your soul, your suffer.

Good sir, the way the kingdom of God works is different from how the kingdom of this world works.
If we accept that Jesus is God and showed us what it would look like if the creator walked amongst us, then the way God works and who He is is radically different from what we would expect.

Jesus reached out to those that were considered outcast and sinners to be looked down upon(Samaritans,tax collectors etc), He knelt down to wash the feet of his own disciplines and even went as far as allowing humanities sin to crush Him for the sake of the same humans that would still reject His sacrifice. To me that's not a God that's is watching out for people mocking Him and just waiting to dish out punishments ,but a God, even though a God of justice, is still stretching out his hand of mercy and ready to meet anyone at whatever level they are in.

Maximus69:
My friend, the Bible's author claims to be the happy God {1Timothy 1:11} which means there is no other God that's happy!

God's word said idol worshipers will become like their blind, deaf, dumb and impotent deities! Psalms 115:2-8

If someone now claims to be a pagan and at the same time happy, what again does such a person need the happy God for?

Please learn how to answer each person according to the level of their intellect {Colossians 4:6} the Bible is complete Sir {Hebrew 4:12} these ATHEISTS are the most stupid humans on planet earth! Psalms 10:4, 14:1

Let's see how truly happy he can be {Job 5:13} now that he's bothered about what others believe (trust) yet he doesn't cherish the idea of the same line of thought! 1Corinthians 1:10

You need not give him the pleasure he seek {Luke 16:24-26} by discussing God's word with him {Matthew 7:6} they're thirsty for arguments, God's word admonished true Christians not to give them that pleasure! Titus 3:9

My good sir, the Bible says: We know that "We all possess knowledge." But knowledge puffs up while love builds up. 1 Corinthians 8:1b

Maximus69:
The main purpose of his coming is to help people gain lasting happiness, so once you are happy already, you don't need him!

Hmmm, that's not what the Bible says sir.

LordReed:
None of your rigmarole answered my question so no you made no point to "reason am".

Haha... Stay safe out there

LordReed:
Oga you asked me for example of appeasement. All these other rigmarole is beside the point which if you have one, make it or don't bother, your choice.

Baba, I don answer you, even beyond what was expected. . Maybe you are misreading my reply again or maybe you sha no one reason am.. either way, it's fine.

If you have any specific point you disagree with though, I'm happy to continue the discussion

LordReed:
This is called shifting the goal post. There was appeasement, I don't care about the rest of the story or how it ended. Meanwhile, I am done with this rigmarole, if you have a point, get to it.

, that's not shifting the post.
You can't take one statement out of a story and use it as a smoking gun while ignoring the rest of the story arc that gives it more context. It's like picking out the part where Cinderella runs away from home to attend the ball and use that to make a case for her being an unruly spoilt brat. I believe we can both agree when you plug that aspect of the story into the larger context of the entire story arc, that is not the case.

Matter of fact sir, you were the one who shifted the post when you insisted we let go of the ideology part, which is a major reason why people or a group of people are persecuted. The whole premise of this thread from the beginning was, can we say the persecution of Christians serves as some form of appeasement to the God of the Bible? Put in another way, is the God of the Bible so angry at the world that he needs His followers to be persecuted and killed as a way of pacifying Himself?
My initial premise was, of course not. Throughout history, whenever a person or group of people hold ideas or worldviews that are counter-culture and deemed scandalous in the society they find themselves in, persecution is inevitable.That has nothing to do with quelling any god's anger.
Sometimes it might not even be about one specific ideology, it might be about what the people or person represent that the larger society deems scandalous that makes persecution seem like a good idea.

I was willing to let that go because even without that component, Jonah's story wasn't still about appeasing his God. It was about radical mercy to a people widely hated by almost everybody in the ancient world because of their legendary cruelty and about Jonah's God not letting even death be an escape route for not getting the message of repentance to them.

[quote author=LordReed post=89497019][/quote]I think you are misreading the the statement. Let me see if I can highlight certain things to make it clearer.

jamesid29: Okay let's leave out the ideology part but as the first point which is the more important aspect states, Jonah himself choose death over any of his other options but his God apparently didn't want that, as the story goes on to clarify.
Now if the story ended with jonah being tossed into the sea and everything went calm, then you would be correct but that isn't the case here

Hope that clears that up

LordReed:
I dunno why you are quoting this, you said the sea didn't calm after Jonah was thrown overboard and I showed you it did.

Nah, I never said that. Maybe you could point out where I said that.

LordReed:
Jonah 1
15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm.

Jonah 1
17 And the LORD appointed a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

LordReed:
It doesn't matter whether it was about ideological difference or not, Jonah was tossed overboard to appease his god, which according to the tale worked. It totally is an example for appeasement of the god of the sacrificed.

Okay let's leave out the ideology part but as the first point which is the more important aspect states, Jonah himself choose death over any of his other options but his God apparently didn't want that, as the story goes on to clarify.
Now if the story ended with jonah being tossed into the sea and everything went calm, then you would be correct but that isn't the case here

LordReed:
Do you mean appeasement to the god of the person being murdered? Jonah in the Bible.

Yea,I can understand why you would see Jonah as an example on the surface. Luckily the Bible does give us a bit more detail in the story and we also know quite a lot about that time period and about the Assyrian empire which gives us more context to the story. So we understand why Jonah would choose death over any of his other options. There's a lot to unpack but if you don't mind, I'll just skip to the end and pick out the most important point for our discussion so we don't get sidetracked.

So basically the story does tell us that Jonah's God apparently wasn't interested and didn't require Jonah's death in the very least ,as the next verse tell us that Jonah's God sent a fish to scoop him out of the water, kept him alive for 3days and subsequently spit him out in the one place jonah would have preferred not to be.

Also, the entire story had nothing to do with a difference in ideology, beliefs or worldview.
In any case jonah isn't really an example for your position.

LordReed:
Some were, can't be specific on what proportion since that data is not available but I think it is significant enough not to make any sweeping generalizations without acknowledging that.

True....i do acknowledge there are always exceptions to the rule.

Would you mind giving an example where we would consider those who were being murdered for their counter-culture worldview, a form of appeasement to their god(i mean from the viewpoint of those being murdered)?

LordReed:
Appeasement.

Great... All throughout recorded history, certain individuals or groups of people have always been targeted and murdered for things like their belief system, their ideology, non-conformity and so on .These people were murdered because of what they represented and for some reason their worldview was seen as a threat in the society in which they found themselves.
Take for example, Martin Luther King's assassination and his beliefs in the equality of rights for African-Americans in the society.

Would you say these deaths were in some way a form of appeasement to any god?

LordReed:
Discuss

If I may ask, What is the major reason people make sacrifices to a god?

pakingzzzzz:
It would have been a better ad if you had checked if there were pictures

With this type of response, it shows that you are not ready to take business seriously.

Na wa o

xtremecr8:
Even Jide Aboderin, the proud silverspoon grandson of the late Chief Aboderin,founder of the Punch newspaper,who had been trolling and bullying us online using same derogatory and condescending words on us like you, went berserk when her daughter's name was mentioned in this link
https://www.nairaland.com/750392/r-b-singer-mo-cheddah

So sir,I'm guessing you are ok with someone saying they would cut off a little girl's fingers and feed it to her and that her father would mourn her, or you just want to conveniently leave that part out just the same way you conveniently looked the other way when someone said the people who died in the recent Lagos explosion deserved it just because the person is sympathetic to your cause.

I don't know if you have always been like this or if it's this experience that has changed you but either way sir, you have let envy and hatred cloud your heart to the point you are willing to cross any lines as long as you can hold on to your victim status and public sympathy.

They guide and protect their own children but inflict pain and pack hot coal on other people's children. How do you think that someday your own children will not be doomed too? In life, you reap what you sow so sow good seeds today for yourself and those children you guide jealously at the expense of the joy of another person's child.
All your children will reap what you are doing today sir.

That's the prayer sir, I hope someday someone will stand up for my children and give them the benefit of doubt in the day they cannot standup for themselves for whatever reason.

The one who knows the heart of all men know I have nothing to profit from fbn, I do not even have an acc with them because I found their customer relations to be very poor. I do not know Mrs Ani-Mumuney or jide aboderin, never met them ,never heard of them until this thread and would most likely walk pass them in a crowd as I don't know what they look like in person.
But at the end of the day what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. You have decided to persecute fbn in the court of public opinion where you know they cannot defend themselves. Even if we remove any banking regulations that might hinder them from engaging in a social media battle, because of their sheer size, it would be easy for you to play the victim and claim bullying. We have seen you do it here to anybody who has tried to question your version of the story without any malicious intent and tried to get a fuller picture of what happened. You have labelled us trolls, bullies and slaves to our corporate masters. How much more if it's fbn as an entity that engages you. You have kicked up dust on nairaland, Twitter and even written to nse but have deliberately avoided the one place where facts from both sides actually matter. To even meet their legal department to hear what their defense is or just what they have to say, you have blatantly refused ,which leads one to ask where you also are in the wrong in all this . Even in your entire sm charade, you have failed to provide real hard evidence of what transpired up to the point of them asking to meet legal. No copies of the original invoice you sent to them for the logo, no email trail of your negotiations with them, no copies of the letters you said you lawyer sent to them when things went south,Nothing really but just your words. And when anyone ask these things,rather than engage this questions,You are always quick to scream that you have not been paid.. That has never been in question, the question has always been why have you not been paid(especially since you've had a prior relationship with them)? You have not given any reason to believe that fbn has denied that you are the original creator of the logo, matter of fact, you have stated that you were offered an amount for it.
Was there a gentleman's agreement on this amount by reason of your vendor contract with them but after seeing how widespread they were using the logo, you decided to ask for a higher amount which led to them referring you to their legal department? How did they get the raw files to the logo in the first place, because they wouldn't have been able to use the logo on so many different scales if all you gave them was the tiny logo on the pad. you have not given us any indication that they got someone else to recreate the exact logo you gave them. This and many more questions abound but rather than answering them and going to the one place you can proof you case with facts, you are always quick to ignore this questions and scream you are being bullied and say you have not been paid.
You probably also know that it's not in fbn's best interest to sue you for defamation because you can easily come back online and scream intimidation and how they are trying to silence you.
Is fbn blameless in this case, NO, at the very least someone or some people in fbn jumped the gun and authorized a logo that it's payment had not been finalized. But you are also not blameless and your strategy is to hid behind public sympathy and force fbn to bow to your demands by effectively taking away the one avenue they have to say their own side of the story. The fact that you have been using name calling, deflection and Intentionally constructing one sided narratives against people who have questioned you to make them look bad is also quite telling of your motive and character sir.

Strive Masiyiwa that you mentioned has never run an online smear campaign, he fights his battles in court the right way. And even those he doesn't go to court for but he is telling the stories so others can learn, he usually doesn't mention the name of the other party involved as the focus is learning from mistakes. So please sir, don't compare what you're doing to what he has done.

Since you're fond of using God to make your cause sound righteous, I'll leave you with one of His words as a reminder to both of us:
"I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
Jeremiah 17:10 ESV

Hotfreez:
[s][/s]

May your children work for people and those they work for treat them the way First bank treated this man.

Why would you bring someone's children into this, just why.... why would it even occur to you, sir what is wrong with you.

xtremecr8:
There's so much semblance in the words you and Jide Aboderin are using yet you have not disclosed your identity like us. Your defence of only Aboderin among the many moniker trolls PR jobbers ,like Gbemisola, Posaze5, GhostPr etc raises and confirm our suspicion.
We don't hate you all. But won't be distracted sir.

. The way you've been trying to put I and jide as one and same person is laughable sir. I'm sure you've checked my profile here to find the smoking gun and would have done the whole finger pointing thing if you found it.

You tend to forget sir, it was you who brought him and Folake's name up in your reply to me( In my original write up I never mentioned any names). When I addressed the fact that you were discrediting these two people without giving us concrete proofs of their evil doings, it was you who zoomed in on jide and later cameup with a one sided Twitter thread. And now that I went to Twitter myself to look at the full conversation and called you out for not presenting all sides of it, you are play the victim game and accuse me of defending only one person right of the bat. The more I look at the tactics you have been using with me sir, the more I begin to understand why you have been refusing to meet fbn's legal team.

But like I said, I'll leave you to it sir.

xtremecr8:
All your remarks and attempt to hold brief for Mr Jide Aboderin won't stop us from exposing you and those different monikers used for bullying us sir.
Here are some of the screenshots among many where you Mr Jide Aboderin bullied and mocked us for demanding payment for our hardwork. We couldn't have found all these things out if we are dealing out of malice. It is God exposing those who hurt and are hurting us sir.
One problem with lying is that if you say or write one lie, when confronted with your lie, you will create more lies to cover the lie.
That's why there's no peace for the wicked. Create a zillion different monikers,conscience is an open wound ,only truth can heal it.
It's just being Grace of God all the way. We could not even pay or afford top bloggers,social media influencers, PR etc. The only thing we can afford to do is say the truth. We are trained and brought up to say the truth at all times.

Luckily Twitter allows one to read tweets without having an account. I was able to read the entire conversation that lead to the tweet you posted here. Why you left out the entire conversation intentionally is best known to you... Maybe it's to show a one sided narrative, maybe not. Either way, at this point ,those who believe you are fighting for justice will believe you and those who see you are fighting a personal vendetta will see it.

Despite all the name calling you've thrown at me for calling it as I see it, I still stand by my original conclusion. You are as much a bully as those you claim to be bullying you. You are trying to use public sentiment to force others to bow to your will, without owning up to where you also may be culpable.

Side note: From experience, the more a person adds God into conversations so as look good, the less I'm inclined to trust them.

It is well sir... I'll leave to it.

xtremecr8:
Apologies for quoting this lengthy explanation.
We are small not unreasonable, arrogant and stubborn to facts. We had to listen to advice well before this campaign and explore the option of getting a lawyer to follow up with the big brand as far back as August last year so the idea to engage a lawyer had been suggested to us well before now but we chose to limit it especially when we saw the handwriting on the wall and when reminded if we have money for 15 years court case. We know we don't have money for 15 years court case so our resort to begging men and women of conscience in this land to wade in is legitimate and sincere.
If truly you have been cheated and still make excuses for the likes of Mr Jide Aboderin who trolled , bullied and perhaps still bullying us with a different moniker while you still claim not to have read his comments that we posted it's screenshot on this thread , then it's safe to guess you are holding brief for him sir.
We have maintained no annonymity, our face, name, contacts and facts have been put out there and we are happy that people can sincerely scrutinize us against the claims of anonymous monikers trolling us.
We are still not going outside the boundary of decency and so with a heart filled with gratitude to God and our helpers, we beg big brand First Bank not to kill us.
We just want to get paid for designing the 125th Anniversary logo of big brand First Bank.

Where in his write-up did he bully you? How are you certain he is the one behind the other monikers you claim to be trolling you? Finally, I read the Twitter screenshot and what he asked there are legitimate questions not too different from the one I asked in the things we do not know section of my original write up. It's funny sir that you have intentionally not tried to engage any of these questions and many others like it that have been posted by other users.
So once again sir, the only reason you have singled him out and have been dragging him for several pages now is because of his family name and you have been using that against him (which is a form of bullying). I don't know who Mr jide is and I never even knew who owned punch newspaper until you made it known on this thread but what I do know is that, this world we are building, where someone can quickly run online, accuse people of wrong doing without concrete proof and have public sentiment become judge jury and executioner, is not a world I want to leave for my children.

xtremecr8:
This is obviously the same script albeit said without the initial obtrusiveness of the comrade professional PR agents doing the bullying as trolls and using different monikers and perhaps now this moniker now because it's the same thing being said sir. The only thing that keeps changing are the monikers sir,especially having realized the futility in bullying us and the Grace of God to expose them all right from Mr Jide Aboderin and others.
Against the advice we have recieved in private and public,we wonn't use spinners, PR agents,bloggers,social media influencers and all because we want to hold ourselves to public scrutiny and transparency.We don't lie, unlike you and the faceless trolls that were unleashed on us after exposing the relationship between
Jide Aboderin and Mrs Folake Ani-Mumuney, we have a face, name, verifiable contact to our campaign and if you want to find out sir, please
ask them, the big brand First Bank, to provide evidence that we have been paid or if we have been paid for designing the logo of big brand First Bank for its 125th Year anniversary. That is the evidence you need to demand from the sponsors of the trolls.
We have never gone beyond a demand for a legitimate pay so we will continue to beg men and women of conscience in this land to wade in and help us beg them to pay us.It is a legitimate demand so we won't die from hunger.
We will not be goaded into litigation because of the reality on ground except if you want to raise doubts about our citizenship as Nigerians too sir.
We will remain resolute and grateful to many others who are heeding our call to speak up if you have been cheated like us too. The big brand First Bank is still using this same logo, didn't pay us and have not provided evidence that we have been paid.
Big brands don't kill small brands, they nurture them. They don't pay people to troll and bully small brands online.

Clearly sir, you are on a war path to defame anyone who questions your narrative in anyway.

I just watched your interview with Sahara tv and thankfully there was some new information in it. You said you had your lawyer send them a couple of letters and in two instances they replied. That's great cos that shows a paper trail but throughout this thread, you never mentioned you engaged any lawyer and you have not showed any of those letters even till this moment and their reply(or atleast I missed where you did that).

Secondly you mentioned they made light of your design during negotiation but went ahead to use it widely. I believe that's a major reason why you have been dragging Mrs Folake Ani-Mumuney through the mud. I don't know who she is and she might very well be a bad person but what she did is a classic Nigerian negotiation technique when trying to get a better deal and it's wrong to vilify her for that, especially since most of us are guilty of it. We tell the tomato seller " madam, shey na these small tomatoes wey full everywhere you won sell for 400 naira, abeg dis thing no pass 150" even if it's really not small , or we tell the mechanic " wetin you dey do sef wey u won collect 6k, no be ordinary to change oil and knack iron for dis place make the engine head correct" but of course if na just to knock iron we won't have gone to the mechanic in the first place. Making mrs Folake into the ice queen because she used a tactic that you most likely also use in your daily life to get a better deal is wrong.
You have similarly been dragging mr jide aboderin just because he spoke out in favor of firstbank and he is from an influential family. I don't know what he wrote on Twitter or any other media but I read what what he wrote here and in no way did he attack you or cross any lines, he was just defending a business partner just the same way others here have defended you, which is to be expected. You simply decided to single him out and have been dragging his name all through this thread for only one reason, his family name. Again sir, that is cyber bullying...

We all know it's no cake walk to run a business in Nigeria. I have been cheated, been threatened with court case ,been shortchanged by clients and I have learnt and still learning how to protect myself. In as much as I know how it feels to be shortchanged, I still don't want my children to grow up in a world where people are being crucified by mob action and public opinion without the need for actual evidence. A world Where the other side is not given a fair chance to defend itself and public sentiment is the judge, jury and executioner. It's as good as shouting thief in the market and rather than taking the person to the police station, we burn them right there on the spot.

It's true our justice system is broken but the court of public opinion is no replacement for it. The court of public opinion should be only a safe guard against powerful people influencing justice by putting millions of eyes on a case as it goes through the judicial system.

Dozens of times people have asked you to take them to court or at the very least meet with their legal team to hear what they have to say and even some suggested taking a recorder. The legal team will definitely not threaten you when they know they are been recorded. But so far, all you have been doing sir is to illicit an "us versus them" sentiment even with the latest video and to go after anyone who questions your narrative by calling them trolls and minions of fbn.


So once again sir, I'm just calling it as I see it. This is not you seeking for justice, this is a smear campaign. And sir, using God's name doesn't automatically give you the moral high ground.

@OP, sir I have been following this topic from page one and watched the video you posted. From everything that has been said, I believe your motivation is not as nobles as you're trying to make it sound and what you are doing is cyber bullying. To be clear sir, I believe First bank dropped the ball by using your logo massively before finalizing pricing and payment and are trying to cover their exposure by going through legal but rather than going through the proper channels like issuing a cease and desist and officially suing them to court where all the facts of case can be examined and everyone can tender their own side of the story, you have brought the case online to try them in the court of public opinion where sentiments and he said she said is mostly all that matters.
Because of the power dynamics at play(them being a big company and you being a small company), you have essentially removed their ability to defend themselves because no matter what they do, if they try to engage you online, public sympathy will always be against them.

Sir with respect, your excuses for not going the legal route first don't really hold water. We have seen people with far less resources than you have stood up against bigger names. If you really want to standup for your right, do it the right way. The fact that you don't even want to meet their legal team to hear what they want to say, shows you might not be totally upfront with your side of the story. So far all you have been doing is trying to garner public outcry to twist firstbanks arm to giving into your demands without giving us any real evidence other than a mail from them referring you to their legal department. You have also dragged anyone who dares speak in favor of firstbank as a trolls of evil masters even if what some of them has no sign of trolling. You are using the #bigbrandsdontkillsmallbrands hashtag,hoping it will catch on, go viral and force First bank to give into your demands, whether you are also in the wrong or not. Again sir,what you are doing is cyber bullying.
You know first Bank has an image to protect and you are using that against them.

From your story, this is what we know (I stand to be corrected)
a) You created a logo for first bank's 125th anniversary(Maybe it was put on only the iPad covers you made for them or maybe you also sent the logo on its own to them, that is still unclear atleast to me).
b) First bank is using said logo on all their promotional items.
c) First bank offered to pay you the same amount you were paid for a similar service in 2016.
d) You were not able to reach an agreement and firstbank referred you to their legal department.

What we do not know
a)Is there any clause in your original vendors contract that gives First bank the exclusive rights to all portions of any service you render to them, whether explicitly given or not?
b) Is there any clause in your vendors contract that puts a cap on the amount First bank would pay you for certain types of services and this clause has not been updated.
c) Did you send the logo to firstbank with a gentleman's understanding that they can go ahead and use the logo and at a later time,you would settle the naira value for the logo. Problem now is, they have gone ahead to use the logo on a lot of their promotional materials but what they think is a fair price for the logo is not agreeable to you?

These are things we are not privy to. First Bank might be a big bad evil empire but your online campaign to drag them without even trying to engage them in a place where they can defend themselves makes you as much of a bully as them sir. If you have tried the legal route and they use their might against you, and then you come online with facts and evidence as your last resort to get justice, we will understand.

So sir let call this what it is. It's not you trying to help others learn or trying to do a win win situation for all sides... This is a smear campaign.

Tamaratonye1:
You took that statement from the US Declaration of Independence, which is "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal." This has nothing to do with "belief", because it's a statement of intent. Namely, the intent to treat humans alike under the law, regardless of their circumstances. That you failed to understand this elementary concept speaks volumes.

Actually ma'am, it was a statement of belief which was deeply rooted in Christianity as the continuation of the statement makes evident
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness

According to Jefferson and other prominent thinkers of his time, statements as “all Men are created equal” and “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights’ are obviously true. Such statements do not require proof. The “truths” are held to be unquestionable and beyond debate, since their truth is said to be obvious. They can be stated without elaborating or defending them.

The Great Awakening religious revival movement of the 1730s helped spread the idea of universal moral human equality which has it's roots in Galatians 3:28 and the political equality ideas where developed by 17th century English republican thinkers like Algernon Sidney and John Locke. This political equality ideology spread to the new colonies from England and by the time of the writing of the declaration, these beliefs where so widely held that Jefferson stated that his writing of the Declaration was to express a shared understanding of “the American mind.”
Fun fact: Originally blacks were treated as indentured servants like everyone else and not slaves in America. But by the turn of the century things changed and the same people who drafted the declaration didn't extend the moral and political equality to Africans.

In the 1600's Oliver Cromwell took control of Britain, and waged a ruthless war on the Catholics. Included in this war were many horrors including mass murders of the Irish. That was never forgotten by the Irish (they still fight over Roman Catholic/Protestant issues). The early Irish immigrants to the US carried this history, one where non-protestants were not given full rights as humans.

The framers of the Constitution were very aware of the horrors inflicted by Cromwell (and the many failings of the British ruling system), and that clause was to make sure that no one was treated less than others just because of their religion.

This is also not historically correct. The revolution really had nothing to do with Catholic/Protestant issue. The colonies were predominantly Protestant and Actually Irish people were a minority in the colonies, mostly coming in as indentured servants.

Do you know anything.... anything at all... about American history?

Where do you find the largest community of Irish in the US? Boston. Where did the US Revolution begin? Boston, with the Boston Tea Party.

I think you are mixing up the dates ma'am. The mass immigration of the Irish to America began in the 19th century due to famine. During the tension between the colonies and England in the late 18th century and leading up to the American revolution, the Irish were a minority group in Boston, as Boston at the time was a Puritan stronghold. The few Irish people in Boston at this time were mostly indentured servants who either hid their Catholism as Catholism was against the law at the time or they became Protestants.
The Boston tea party was a political movement against taxation without representation and wasn't motivated by religion or ethnicity. It was specifically targeted at the Tea Act of 1773, hence the name tea party. This eventually led to the American revolution which was a long time coming. The Tea act and the British reaction to the backlash was what broke the camel's back .

Just to reiterate the point, the tea party started in December 16, 1773 and at this point Boston was predominantly Anglo- Saxon. Boston began to change drastically with the mass European immigration of the 19th century, with the first wave being Irish immigrants starting in 1820.

Daniel058:
Just don't understand if God answer prayer for real.. whenever I pray , I feel like am truly communicating with With God, and like he's listening to my prayers but at the end ,I see no results.....


I have read so many things about God like how he loves us , that he's a merciful God how he sends us guiding angels to protect and How Jesus died to set us Free. And that by the mentioned of Jesus name , every knee must bow. I have tried all my life to live a decent life style.


But at the moment , I can't tell if God answers prayers,am doubting if he exists at all or we are being deceived with folk tales.


Am just confused..

Note : Am a member of Catholic Church and Attend Deeper life Bible study and Sunday worship service sometimes.

The point you're currently in is a point many believers has been at some point in there lives... A point of real doubt, where ur trust in the faithfulness and love of God is shaken to the core. I have been there myself and I can relate with what you're going through.

My personal advice to you is to talk to God. I mean really talk with Him... Forget the protocols you've been taught, forget all the gbas gbos,all the rules, and everything and Just talk to Him trully from your heart. Tell him about your doubt,ur fears, ur complaints and everything in between. Don't be afraid to let it all out, He already knows what's going on in ur heart so there's really no point hiding it. Mine was barely a five minutes prayer and God showed up, urs might be longer or shorter depending on how much u have to say. However long it is, just lay it down as it is in ur heart. I pray as you go boldly to the throne of grace, you receive mercy and Grace in your time of need.

Pls Take solace in the fact that many have been where you are and have come out stronger and more assured of the faithfulness of the God of the Bible. You too will also

God bless you.

[quote author=MuttleyLaff post=85334371][/quote]Edited out. Realized that what I wrote here would take us down another path. Sorry about that.

Enjoy your holidays sir...

MuttleyLaff:
jamesid29, you want precise facts, right? OK then, let's go straightaway there, lol. First and foremost, jamesid29, you err, when you typed, that there was no official festivity associated with them.

Sir, what I was saying by my statement is when the dates where been calculated in the late 2nd/early 3rd century (around the early 200s AD), there was no festivities associated with it. The early church didn't celebrate birthdays of anyone during this period and even Origen went as far as mocking pagans for celebrating birthdays. My point was the church didn't have any ulterior motive or pagan influence during this period in choosing December 25th as one of the possible dates for the birth of Christ. The early church was more interested in celebrating the day of martyrdom of saints and Easter more than anything else. It was until we get to the 4th century (the 300s AD) before we get any allusion to the fact that any festivity was associated with the birth of Christ. Around the early 400s Bishop Augustine claims a local Donatists group refused to add January 6th(Epiphany) to their Christmas festivity of December 25th. As the donatists emerged during the Diocletian persecution and mostly didn't change their traditions from that time onwards, Augustine's writing gives the allusion that at the very least some local groups had already started attaching festivities to the date as far back as 312 AD.

jamesid29, c'mon now, what about all these Christmas paraphernalia? Are they too, like Christmas tree, the decorations, the burning fire yule log etcetera, devoid of pagan influence too, lol?

Sir if u read my post again, u would find I touched on this also... Yes it's true that quite a number of modern Christmas paraphernalia do have pagan influences, but these come centuries later as the church became more comfortable syncretizing pagan cultures with Christianity. For example the Christmas tree u mentioned comes from medieval druidic practices.

While its true, others, previously before Constantine, have been romancing with the idea of picking a day for the celebration of Jesus' birth, it actually was Roman Emperor, Constantine who commandeered the pagan festival of Saturnalia to be converted and used to celebrate the birth of Christ, hence the December 25th

This is also not factual sir. For starters, the festival of saturnalia was never celebrated on the 25th of December. It was a week long celebration from the 17th to the 23rd of December( it actually started out as a one day celebration 17th only before becoming a 1 week celebration and later emperors tried scaling it back because it was putting to much strain on the Roman economy). The actual Roman holiday that fell on the 25th of December is the sol Invictus( Started by Aurelian around 274 AD) and there are two leading theories for why 25th was chosen.
1) The original sol Invictus by Aurelian was held sometime in August but it was Julian the apostate that moved it 25th December.
2) Aurelian chose 25th December to spite the Christians

Either theory has it's merit and drawbacks but in either case the calculation by Hippolytus and Julius Sextus Africanus predates Aurelian and sol Invictus by at least 70 years. Plus it's well attested that the church at this time did everything possible to separate themselves from any form of paganism and heresy.

It is a fact, that, before the year 336 AD, there is no record of December 25th being observed as the birth of Jesus, in Rome. The church in Rome began formally celebrating Christmas on December 25 in 336, during the reign of the emperor Constantine

.
Sir like I said earlier, the festivities and the calculation of the date were independent of each other. For the 336AD dating, I address it below when talking about the exert you post

Starting on December 17 and lasting seven days, Saturn, the Roman god of agriculture, is being honored, lol, then starting on December 25 and lasting through January 1, commemorates the birth of Mithras, the Persian god of light, lol, but Constantine merged these two traditions from these festivals with the Nativity story in the Bible and the rest is history on how Christmas was born, lol.

Sir, the Persian empire and the Roman empire were two distinct empires. It was Greek culture that Rome assimilated and with time the Eastern Roman side had more Greek influence while the Western roman side was more Latin and we can still see those influences today even in the church (Greek Orthodox Church and Latin Roman Catholic church). Persia was actually a thorn at the side of the Roman empire and during Constantines reign Persia fought Rome to a standstill and persecuted Christans within their empire. I don't dabble much into the Persian empire, just the bits that pertain to the Roman empire and there was not a time Constantine merged cultures with Persia to form Christmas.

Check out the below excerpt, on who then, first made Christmas official and declared December 25th a civic holiday, lol.

Sir, I read the exert and I believe you to be quite knowledgeable. I believe you know that official declarations by the church does not mean that was when a tradition began. Quite a number of people today would say the church had no official Canon till the 4th century and that there was no Orthodoxy in the early church. The gnostics, the arians and those that upheld what we would call Orthodoxy today ,etc were all fighting for the top spot and by the council of Nicene, the winner took all and stamped out other sects. I believe you do not accept this to be true... The church had long known what was scripture and what was not and there was always Orthodoxy within Christianity. The council of Nicene and later Canon declarations only affirmed long held traditions of the church. Same thing applies here, long before any edicts or celebration, 25th had already been the dominant date for the birth of Christ in the western church.
As a separate aside: from the exert you gave, the first day 336AD was not an official declaration. It comes from an old list of the death days of christian bishops with the first entry being
December 25: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: “Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea
It doesn't tell us there was any state celebration on that day, it was just an official list of bishops death days. And you will notice that the next date in the exert, 350AD is post Constantine

jamesid29, in your comments, you said, they are your own personal opinion, that "it's unclear as to when Christ was born as the Bible doesn't give us much information and it's also true that the early church didn't record celebrating the birth of Christ

".

I personally like to let people know when I am presently information that are purely my own opinions in contrast to when I am presenting information that have been drawn from the body of work of others very knowledgeable in these things and has been verified by those equally knowledgeable in the subject matter. Doesn't necessarily mean I think my opinions are wrong...I just like to let people know what type of information I am presenting.

To your remarks about the September date as the birthday of Christ... I know of it also and I know it's the best bet calculations we have as of today but with a gun to my head, I wouldn't lay my down my life on the certainty of September as the birthday of Christ and I don't know of any body (most of whom accept the September dating) who would stake their careers on saying definitively that September is the exact month Christ was born( the answer is usually " most likely" ).
The problem is with such little information given in the scriptures and very little extra biblical account of his birth written in reliable sources, we are mostly forced to make assumptions in our calculations that can't be proven. It's like accurately calculating the creation date or when exactly the flood of noahs time happened down to the day and month. There's such little information available that it's like trying to pull water from a rock.

For me I like to play such datings safe hence my goto answer being "it's unclear"... but if someone is persistent and just wants a best guess date, I'll say the most likely dating is September with the information we have today but I will still butress my statement with "that's the best answer we have with the assumptions we make currently"
But If you sir are convinced totally with the September dating, that's also fine as either way doesn't touch on the tenets of faith or doctrine.

Edited