₦airaland Forum

FOLYKAZE:
Please understand that Esagali is a distinct structure, serving the purpose of religious rituals, deity veneration and occultic practises of Marduk. It is sited at the south of Etemenanki, separated at some distance. Another Ziggurat is Borsippa, previously thought is the tower of babel, is a religious edifice in honour of the local god Nabu, son of Marduk. However, there is no information from Babylonia sources, Greek sources, archaeological resources, and Bible attributing or dedicating Etemenanki as the religious centre of worship of any known deity.

Previous post already deals with this I believe.

You mentioned many times, heaven (sky or astro), cosmos and yet did not see the astronomical imprints in the Tower. Did you not see the astrological essence too?

Ha, I see where some of the misunderstandings comes from;Because of the statement of heaven and earth. The thing is your thinking of it through the lens of a 21st century person. Ancient people had a different understanding of what that means... Its a different rabbit hole though.
Hope some of this materials might help..
https://bibleproject.com/explore/heaven-earth/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy2AQlK6C5k
A very short video but this guys are quite good in compressing good scholarly work into 6min videos.
Also, the book(Lambert's) I mentioned in the other post drills down into.

https://nekaal.org/observer/ar/ObserverArticle234.pdf

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1951IrAJ....1..197F

https://www.livius.org/articles/person/kidinnu-the-chaldaeans-and-babylonian-astronomy/

I've read them but I do not see any mention of the ziggurats being places for astronomical work.
They are just talking about how versed the Babylonians were in astrology and stuff, which is something well attested for in many ancient documents. Matter of fact Pythagoras theorem was developed in mesopotamia long before Pythagoras discovered. Its just a modern conception that ancient people were dumb cavemen, but nothing is further from the truth. Our brains are the same and they did alot of amazing things that still stumps us till date.
But again, we are talking about two different things.

Please don't make it more complex than it is now. The only known temple dedicated for the worship of Marduk is Esagali. Deut 32 is another head aching subject when compared with Urgarit texts.

Well it's connected connected to the story. Its another design pattern of the Bible... the scholarly term is called intertextuality but I prefer to call them hyperlinks because they work like webpage links. Basically the biblical authors use certain words or string of ideas that hyperlink you to another part of the Bible and it keeps going back and forth. The thing is we usually tend to miss them because we were not taught how to parse them. Basically the Bible is one unified story from genesis to revelation ultimately pointing to Jesus.
In this case Deut 32:8 hyperlinks to Gen 11, then a couple of hyperlinks go throughout the Bible till we land at Acts 3 and the Pentecost story(which was basically the reversing of what happened in Gen 11).
Actually one of the reasons I'm rarely post is because when I think of all the matrix of ideas that needs to be written to drill down into giving an answer, I go just tire.
Like I mentioned before, the Bible is simple enough that even a child can read it and get the main idea and come to salvation but at the same time complex enough that you can spend a full year on just a couple of verses... I know of a lady whose entire theises was on just a one verse of the Bible "thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain".
Personally I don't know of any connection between Deut 32 and Ugaritic text though. Maybe you can pass along some sources

However, information from Babylonia sources, Greek sources, Hebrew sources, and archaeological evidences buttresses that Bible is a polemic against Babylon.

I'm not sure what you mean here

Esagali tablet is a neo-Babylonian mathematical text, spelling out advance mathematics and architectural designs, which helped Nebuchadrezzar II reconstructed Etemenanki.

https://www.louvre.fr/en/oeuvre-notices/esagila-tablet

I believe I've touched on the E-sagil Tablet in my other post. And anything I didn't mention, you'll find in the articles link I posted for it.

FOLYKAZE:
Oh well, you are opening more doors into the discourse, but the doorways lead to the room I desired to cool off.

The tablets and records found from the excavation of Babylon didn't puncture on the spiritual importance of Etemenanki. While the clay tablets found at the foundation base of the Tower tell us about measurements, and functions of each courtrooms, there is nothing spectacular in it attributing the tower as a worship centre of Marduk. The absence of evidence, signifying that Marduk is worshipped in Etemenanki stamped down all spiritual attributions to the tower.

I think the first thing to recognise is that Gen 1 -11 was discussing events at the dawn of human history.
To answer your question, I'll give you three strands of evidence
1) Enuma Elish(the most popular literature from ancient mesopotamia). Here I'm quoting the part describing the building of the city, it's temple and ziggurat as a tribute to marduk as gratitude for defeating tiamat...I'm using William G Lambert's translation

.....
"When he had directed all the decrees,
Had divided lots for the Anunnaki, of heaven and of earth,
The Anunnaki opened their mouths,
And addressed their lord marduk,
Now, lord, seeing that you have established our freedom,
What favour can we do for you?
Let us make a shrine of great renown,
Whenever we arrive, let us rest within it.

When Marduk heard this,
He beamed as brightly as light of day.
Build Babylon, the task you have sought,
Let bricks for it be moulded, and raise the shrine!'

The Anunnaki wielded the pick,
For one year they made the needed bricks,
When the second year arrived,
They raised the top of Esagil, a replica of the Apsu.
They built the lofty tower temple of the Apsu.(some translation just use ziggurat here)
And for Anu, Ellil, Ea and him,they established it as a dwelling."
Brief commentary:Two structures are described here been built by the gods in honour of marduk: the temple Esagil and the tower of Apsu(representing the watery deep; in my entry on E-sagil Tablet, we'll connect the name of the tower with the Sumerian name Etemenanki). The Bible does not directly mention the temple but the nuances in the text may hint not only at the tower(ziggurat) but also at the temple. We've seen that the name Esagila means " House whose top is lofty", thus in Enuma Elish, "the gods raised the peak of Esagila, such a description reflect that the entire temple compound reached the heavens;
The biblical phrase , "with its top to the heavens", may therefore reflect familiarity with mesopotamia mythology and ideology.
For a more detailed analysis see Babylonian Creation Myths Wilfred G. Lambert( sorry this one is a textbook,so no links... You can get it at bookstores though)

2) Tower of Babel Steele
Inscription: "ETEMENANKI: ZIKKURAT BABIBLI: "THE HOUSE, THE FOUNDATION OF HEAVEN AND EARTH,

I MADE IT THE WONDER OF THE PEOPLE OF THE
WORLD,

I RAISED ITS TOP TO THE HEAVEN,

MADE DOORS FOR THE GATES,

AND I COVERED IT WITH BITUMEN AND BRICKS(Andrew George translation)
"

Brief commentary:A 604-562 BC Steele; The earliest extant architectural drawing of the tower with 3+24 lines in cuneiform script
To the left: carving of the Tower of Babel from a side view, clearly showing the relative proportions of the 7 steps and a temple complex at its foot;
To the right is the standing figure of Nebuchadnezzar II with his royal conical hat, holding a spear in his left hand and a scroll with the rebuilding plans of the Tower in his outstretched right hand;
At the top is a line drawing of the ground plan of the temple on the top, showing both the outer walls and the inner arrangement of rooms.
For a detailed analysis of the Steele, you can download Andrew George paper on https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/12831/

3)The E-sagil Tablet: A 229 BC tablet giving the architectural design of the ziggurat complex copied out by a scribal apprentice called Anu-b∂l·unu. It details measurements of 7 stories and a temple at the top and a structural connection to the temple below.
Based on detailed analysis in academia, it's generally held that the architectural design is not of the real ziggurat but of an ideal representative of what should be (something like the temple dimensions in the the book of Ezekiel). Or it might be a training in mathematical exercise for would-be surveyors.

Quoting from Andrew George's paper on the E-sagil Tablet(I'll leave the link below)

"The decipherment of the E-sangil Tablet confirmed most commentators in the view that the mythical Tower of Babel was a memory of a real building, a staged temple-tower that the Babylonians knew by the Sumerian ceremonial name of E-temen-anki ‘House of the Foundation Platform of Heaven and Underworld’. Apart from the E-sangil Tablet, the cuneiform evidence for E-
temen-anki under this name comprises the inscriptions of royal builders, a mention in the poem of Erra, appearance in the litany of temple names of Babylon and other cities that regularly occurs in first-millennium copies of liturgical texts, and entries in scholarly
lists of temples, temple gates and other sacred locations To these must be added (a) the reference to Marduk and
Zarpan¬tu of é.te.me.en.an.ki (var. é.te.me.na.an.ki) in Late Babylonian copies of a cultic
calendar (BRM IV 25 // SBH VII, ed. Unger 1931: 260-1) and (b) an entry in the list of seven seats of Marduk collected in one of the scholarly compendia of heptads: ·u-batdb∂l(en) ·á é.te.me.[en.an.ki] ‘seat of B∂l in E-temen-[anki]’ "

"The use of language from academic arithmetic,
3 the interest in the combined area of two courtyards of the neighbouring temple E-sangil as material for a
mathematical exercise, the presence in the same document of linear measurements based on different cubit-standards, and the presentation of the dimensions
of the base of E-temen-anki as examples of how such measurements can be variously converted into area expressed in the respective capacity-surface systems, all these features indicate that the text is still more abstract and academic than an architect’s plan. "
For a more detailed analysis see https://eprints.soas.ac.uk/3858/

Conclusion: The believe that the temple and ziggurat of Babylon were created at the beginning of history lent them a mythological status. Enuma Elish presents the ziggurat and temple at the center of the universe lying between heaven and earth. Similar cosmic view of this also appears in other mesopotamia text like the other two I gave and some other priestly literatures. The name of the ziggurat alone Etemenanki: "THE FOUNDATION OF HEAVEN AND EARTH" already tells you that in the ancient Babylonian mind, this is the place where heaven and earth meets. This is where God's space and man's space intersect... It doesn't get more spiritual than that.

The temple of Marduk in Babylon was called Esagila, "the temple that raises its head." It was built from the foundation to basement by Esarhaddon, king of the Neo-Assyrian Empire. And the construction was fully completed by Nebuchadnezzar II. The temple comprises of a large court, containing a smaller court, and finally the central shrine, consisting of an anteroom and the inner sanctum which contained the statues of Marduk and his consort Sarpanit. Esagila is standalone structure, located at the south of Etemenanki. All rituals, rites, and occultic practises for Marduk happen only in Esagila, putting away any spiritual significance of Etemenanki.

Ok so, a couple of things we have to correct here.
1) The temple and ziggurat are inextricably linked. You can't have a ziggurat without a temple.
2)The temple and ziggurat was not built by Esarhaddon. In the Babylonian conception, this was done by the gods at the dawn of history but in reality it's safe to push them to the time of Hammurabi(1792-1750 BC). It was built upon by later kings, destroyed by rival nations, rebuilt by subsequent kings up until the time of Nebuchadnezzar II(who finished the enlargement and restoration work after 43yrs), and it was destroyed again after him around 538 BC. Alexander the Great wanted to rebuild it but he kinda made things worse because he took down the entire structure but never got to the rebuilding part.
3) Etemenanki was connected with Esagila by a triple gate. A larger gate in the east connected the Etemenanki with the sacred procession road(all this is confirmed by archeological works). I was very careful about my language in my previous post so you don't conflat my words. If you check my post, I was always specific that the ziggurat was part of the temple complex... Because it's usually a complex and not just one building.

jamesid29:
I think my previous answers covers this part.
Basically all major cities in mesopotamia had temple complexes that incorporated ziggurats alongside it atleast as far back as the 3rd millennium BC. This is attested well in many ancient literatures

To be clear though, like everything in the world, temple complexes are not born equal. Different cities,rulers etc different how it's done; but the idea is usually the same; There's a temple and there's a ziggurat.

For Babylon Even though asides from the ground temple structure (esagila in this case), we have multiple literatures and drawings that point to a temple top also(Herodotus is not our only source as I've pointed out above , personally I didn't really want to spend my night combing through research papers (as I did above)...Hence why I wanted to stick to just to talking about only the complex as a whole(you don't find alot of this info in mass media and there's still alot of work and gray areas in this part )
The basic idea is this: The ziggurat is the meeting point between heaven and earth (the center of spiritual cosmic geography), the temple is where the gods dwell. As I pointed out in my previous post

jamesid29:
To understand how this works is to understand that a ziggurat was not built for men to go up to heaven but for God to come down to earth and to reside in their midst in the temple

.

Brilliant inputs, though I largely do not agree with it.

1. A phenomenon is like a coin, having two sides which is aptly defined on either sides, and can loose it substance from poor background. I once read a piece from Prof. Ze'ev Herzog, he is an Israeli archeologist, professor of archaeology at the Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Base on the summary of his work published in the Haaretz newspaper, he presented a polarity framework putting spiritual importance and archaeological understanding of the Exodus at two opposing sides. Factoring spiritual importance of the exodus present the account as truth, meanwhile archaeology evidences showcase the exodus is fiction. There might be spiritual significance to the Etemenanki project, but there is no evidence justifying spiritual essence of the building.

I understand point here but maybe you misunderstood me or I didn't make my point clear enough. My point was not about accepting a particular literature as truth because it has spiritual connotations, but that to adequately understand a text, you have to factor in everything that is important to the author.

2. The OP does not completely eliminate the spiritual virtue of the Tower, according to the Bible. However, the Bible didn't specifically mention that the tower is worship centre for tutelage deity Marduk. It didn't specifically mention the any spiritual essence or purposes of the the tower. I, rather stated that I tilted toward architecture revolution and space exploration, as pointed out by Diodorus Siculus in his work, Book II, 7-10, it is recorded that "The temple of Bel erected in the center of the city ... was extraordinarily high ... and the Chaldeans did their astronomical work there."
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Diodorus_Siculus/2A*.html

So two things here
1)This is where cultural background comes in. As I stated in my previous post, all literature is written against the backdrop drop of a specific culture. The more we understand the culture the more we understand the text. Example: Recently with the whole black lives matter stuff, Trump said "when the looting starts , the shooting starts". The whole of America went wild on how he why he would make such a racist statement. I didn't get the context for a while and everything was lost on me, but after some time I learnt that the statement has a long racial history that goes all the way back to the 50s. Everybody in America got it immediately but for me I had to cross the cultural divide to understand what was going on. Same thing happens with the Bible and any literary work for that matter. They can make statements that anybody within that culture would get automatically, but we have to cross the cultural divide to understand it. By situating the story in Shinar, mentioning the brick making, mentioning great renown, talking about a tower whose top reaches the heavens etc; everyone in the ancient world would get what's going on.
The Bible is simple enough that a child can read it and get the big picture, but at the same time it's also complex enough that each generation will continue to rediscover new things,new insights etc. That's why some people like biblical studies..

2) Diodorus lived in the 30's BC, 100s of years after the ziggurat has been destroyed. If we can't trust what Herodotus who lived when the temple tower was still standing says, we wouldn't trust Diodurus who lived long after it was destroyed. We don't have any ancient source that attest to it (and we have alot of ancient literatures)

3. I had wish there is any evidence from the Bible, an account from the Hebrew, mentioning spiritual essence of the Tower. There is none also from the clay tablets of the Mesopotamians. The popular Esagila tablet only pointed to the spiritual significance of the Esagila temple, serving as the ritual centre for cult practices.

I believe some of my previous answers already cover this. Besides as I said before, everything in the Bible is making a theological statement. Even Taking vs4 at facevalue alone should already alert you that sometime else is going on here. Like someone I respect always says(concerning the Bible), "if it is weird, it is important". And if you're interested enough,you go down the rabbit trail.

I had wish to read the referenced book, the link is broken, it is leads nowhere.

Sorry... Just go to archive.org and search for Sumer and the Sumerians. A couple of books should pop up, it's going to be the first on the list. To borrow the book, you have to register... but it's free. The reference pages are 85 - 88.

Esagila is the known temple of Marduk... Borsippa, another Ziggurat thought to be the the tower of babel, is a religious edifice in honour of the local god Nabu, the son of Marduk. Please tell us sir, what deity Etemenanki is dedicated to.

I believe my previous answers should cover this also, but let me just make a quick statement. Every city had ziggurat connected to a temple dedicated to the patron god of that city, in the case borsippa, the temple's name is Ezida. If you notice it's from the Talmud and subsequent periods the taught the tower was the Babel one, and that's because they didn't have access to the same info we have. Most of the literature and archeological finds we currently have come from the 19th century onwards so today we are pretty confident in which is Babel and which is not. They faced the same problems we are face now with Canaanite culture. There's still alot we don't know, but it's possible in the next 100 yrs there might be huge archeological finds or better tech that can reconstruct certain things which would open up better understanding of text. That's just how this things work.

I know and agree largely with you on this. However, information sourced from wiki has not been debunked yet and very tenable for the moment

I pretty sure if you read the entire wiki article or just even the the entire paragraph of the place you quoted from, you'll get a very different understanding that doesn't fit with what you've been trying say.

I can quote multiple places from that article the fits everything I've been saying and the very same paragraph you quoted contradicts everything you are trying to make it say. The summary of of the whole article is that ziggurats are sacred spaces and are part of temple complexes usually built for the patreon god of the city. So there's really nothing to debunk.

FOLYKAZE:
I honestly do not want to delve into the cultural or spiritual significance of the Etemenanki, as there is no concensus and evidences to strengthen the view.

Well, that's a bit incorrect boss. Outside of the Bible and the history of Isreal, the civilizations that developed in ancient mesopotamia are pretty much well attested for today. Compared to other civilizations that wrote on parchment that have either been destroyed or lost, the mesopotamian region wrote on clay tablets that even survived destruction of entire cities. Today we have thousands of tablets(the library in the British museum alone has about 30,000 tablets) dating back to the 3rd millennium BC, so there's really not much question about the significance of the etemenanki(atleast not in academia).We not only have enough textual sources for the ziggurat itself but also for the accompanying temple Esagila .

This is why I tilted away from spiritual and cultural significance, and rather focuses more on space exploration and architectural revolution. You are the only person who see my taillight.

I believe this is where the misunderstandings steam from. Having this mindset about the Bible and even other ancient writings would cause a couple of problems
1) Almost everything in the ancient world has spiritual significance. The idea of separating the world into spiritual and physical, supernatural and natural, is a modern concept.. ancient people didn't see the world in those terms. Removing that component from the text automatically means removing an important piece away from it and most likely reading something foreign into it.
2) Though the Bible contains many different types of literature (history, poetry, biographies, apocalyptic etc), at its very core, the Bible is a theological book. Every statement,every story, even the genealogies have a specific messaging that is being transmitted. Striping that out is to misunderstand what the text is trying to communicate.
3) All literature is written against the backdrop of the culture that it's been written in. This is very important, because to read any text with a different cultural context is to read something into it that was not intended by the author. To illustrate this:Let's say I write something to you and say "Mehn bro, that car dey fly". You automatically get what I mean cos we both have the same cultural backdrop, but someone living 2000 yrs from now can easily misunderstand that statement to mean we were talking about flying cars. This is just a very mundane illustration but i hope it helps get my point across. The context of the Bible is not the 21st century,it's not the Catholic church or the Reformation, the context of the Bible is the cultural backdrop of the biblical authors. Anything outside of that is to read something foreign into the text or to miss the point the text is trying to make.

There's alot more we can talk about how we approach the Bible and other ancient texts in general but I'm trying to limit what I write... what I can assure is that no one in the ancient world would look at a ziggurat and think of space exploration or astronomy. A ziggurat in the ancient world was part of a temple complex and was sacred space

Check this out from Wikipedia;
Etemenanki has been suggested as a possible inspiration to the biblical story of the Tower of Babel.
According to archaeologist Harriet Crawford, "It is usually assumed that the ziggurats supported a shrine, though the only evidence for this comes from Herodotus , and physical evidence is non-existent.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziggurat

Ok so let me try and put the statement into perspective. A temple is the abode of the deity but a shrine is where cultic rituals are performed (reenactment of sacred marriages etc). A temple might have a shrine in it but not necessarily(most ground temples have shrines). What is not being disputed is whether a ziggurat is part of a temple complex (that part is well attested for by many sources), what is being disputed is whether cultic rituals were performed at the top of the ziggurat or inside it. On one hand Herodotus is considered the father of modern history and his words carry weight but on the other hand,there's no surviving ziggurat at its full height to examine if there are any relics from rituals left behind.
You can read the whole entry of the quote you posted from Harriet Crawford's book to understand whats actually being debated "Sumer and Sumerians pp 85-88". Here's a link to where you can borrow the book for free https://archive.org/details/sumersumerian00/
Or you can also read the entire paragraph you cropped the link out from... it gives the entire context of what Harriet was saying.

Let me just add one more thing, Wikipedia is a good place to start a research on a topic or just get general information.... but caveat lector.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_is_not_a_reliable_source

There is no evidence to show the Ziggurat serve as a shrine to Marduk.

I think my previous answers covers this part.
Basically all major cities in mesopotamia had temple complexes that incorporated ziggurats alongside it atleast as far back as the 3rd millennium BC. This is attested well in many ancient literatures

There's alot we can talk about the theological statement being made especially when you read the parallel accounts in Babylon literature, but to not make my post overtly long(as its too long at this point sef), I'll just try and make a very condensed version of what was going on and just touch 1 or 2 points.
1) The name of the ziggurat is Etemenanki meaning :House, foundation platform of the heaven & the underworld (earth for our understanding)
2) The name of the temple is Esagila meaning: House whose top is lofty
3) Babylon comes from the Akkadian word babili meaning: gate of the god(it's unclear whether this etymology reflect the original meaning of the name or a secondary interpretation).
The statement being made here is that the city is considered as the center of the cosmos (The place where heaven and earth meets; God's space and man's space intersect).... .To understand how this works is to understand that a ziggurat was not built for men to go up to heaven but for God to come down to earth and to reside in their midst in the temple. In the case of Babel, they were doing this not to honour God but to make a name for themselves(it's a play on the meaning of Shem). They wanted to create a symbiotic relationship with God on their own terms(this already shows they had a flawed concept about God)... This is a design pattern in the Bible called a bookend, in this case Genesis 3 and Genesis 11(paradise lost and how men are trying to regain paradise on their own terms out of pride).
God does come down with his entourage, then not only does he scatter them since they refuse to do that on their own but also disinherits the nations (Deut 32:8 ) since they were bent on renegading against Him. He then calls a man out of the same mesopotamia in the very next story and promises to make his name great and through his seed bless all the nations on the earth.
From this man comes the nation of Israel (who were meant to be a priest to the nations; God never left the nations without a witness)... From them comes the first time God dwells with people since Gen 3(the tarbancle and later the temple), which was always the plan. Later comes Jesus Christ, through whose sacrifice launches the new temple and grafting of all the nations back into the fold. That's the story in a nutshell...
There's a lot more to be said but there are already some really good answers here. I believe O\femmanu1 has some good answers that can help fill in some of the gaps.
There's still some debate on whether the biblical account is a polemic against Babylonian conception of the world or whether it's aimed at humanity in general. In either case though, the major theological messaging doesn't change much.

However, there are enough evidence that the designs are not simple base but has imprints of advance mathematics and complex architecture designs which aid sky observations and city security.

A lot of ancient structures were not simple but were advanced architectural design( from Egypt to Rome to China etc). That doesn't change what their purpose was for.

Maximus69:
@bolded is a misconception!

Because there is well over 8.7 million individuals globally having the same mindset and there is no contradictions amongst them, they're having the same line of thought, so it's not some kind of PERSONAL opinion Sir!

By personal opinion I meant, your reply wasn't really an answer to my original question but more of evangelising

FOLYKAZE:
That is largely, what is stated in the bible. It could be something else, but I won't make claims outside what is in the bible.

Yeah, you are right about it being a ziggurat and also that it's most likely the ziggurat named Etemenanki boss(I don't think there are many people in academia that would disagree with you on this).
I think where the misconception steams from is that you misunderstand the cultural significance of a ziggurat and what it is built for. I believe if you take a dive into what it is and it's significance in ancient mesopotamia, it would change your reading of Genesis 11.

Maximus69:
The problem most Churchgoers have today is ignorance!

The divine name YAHWEH (JEHOVAH) simply means "He who causes to become"
The event @ Babel revealed how God outwitted Satan who wanted to gather all the people under his domain using the bait of a tower thought to have been a means of strength to imperfect humans, God proved his name beyond reasonable doubt that even without people speaking the same language he has the power to make them speak as one family!

Satan's reasoning that people can only unite if they're of the one literal language was excellently flaw, when we see deadly disputes within the same tribe or language like Ife/Modakeke crisis!

Well JEHOVAH has united people from different races, tongues, skin-colour, nationalities and caused them to form one big and happy family of peace loving worshipers. Isaiah 2:2-4
YES let them know that JEHOVAH has proven his Godship beyond all reasonable doubt, Jehovah's Witnesses Organization is the evidence of his power to do what seems impossible! John 17:21-23

Okay sir... But this is not an answer to my question though. I'm guessing you were passing across your personal opinion... which is also ok

Cc FOLYKAZE... So following the conversation for a while , I must say, it's a bit refreshing to see a critic of the scriptures that actually takes their time to read what the text actually says rather than what they remember from Sunday school.

So out of curiosity, since you already know what was been built at Babel was a ziggurat

And the progress gave birth to what we know today as Ziggurat.

Why do you still hold that God's action of scattering the people was because of their mere unity in building a tower?

budaatum:
Cc: solite3

Thanks for sharing.... Hopefully more people get more interested in stuffs like this.

A quick 3mins-ish video on the mind/process of Bible researcher
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3Vd74_qekk

I'll also encourage anyone to checkout the other videos on their channel https://www.youtube.com/c/TheBibleProject.
This guys have been able to breakdown generations of biblical scholarly work into short interesting videos that's actually not boring and very informative at the same time (a very hard feat to achieve if I may add).

Nuel4:
oh my goodness. So I have talking this thing all these while. God!!

That was actually a stupid thing to do and comment to make.... Its good you took it down

akpunda86:
Yea she wont but ill get the baby outside..im a catholic but will be porting to anglican nxt year as take a new wife.is allowed.

Oga taking a new wife when still legally married is not allowed in Anglican communion. Matter of fact no orthodox church, whether it is Catholic Anglican Protestant Pentecostal etc allows it. Any priest or pastor who officiates such a wedding knowing fully well is running his own personal show without the official sanction of the denomination.

BOSSkesh:
Is speaking behfehjwjagshyrhbakiehiekwbsvv bsysgsbsisijekJsbysvsbsksu bshsjsnbssvjaiwhevjajsbsnjsjwnnejejvcevevvwbeh.hshvajkaheghehbrbhwiytwgejdjbsvvsb svsyqknqgwqgvw whehebeh speaking in tongues?? Does This sound meaningful to anyone

If it sounded meaningful, there won't have been need for gift of interpretation and if there's none, the speaker should speak quietly to himself and to God

OP, I understand what you are trying to get at, especially with the excesses that we as a body are prone too but to narrowly interpret the meaning of tongues as intelligible speech used to propagate the Gospel as described in Acts 2 is to cut out the rest of the New Testament. The thing is you'll likely run into problems with that way of interpreting the text in places like Acts19, 1 Corinthians 14, Acts 10 etc.
The thing about Acts 2 is, there's alot of one-of-a-kind Old testament motifs going on in it. Motifs like God's first introduction to Isreal at Sinai(exodus 19:16-18), God's presence after the completion of the tarbancle (Exodus 40:34-38) and the dedication of temple (2 chronicles 7:1), the tower of Babel and the disinheritance of the nations(Genesis 11:1-9,Deut 32:8-9), God fulfilling His promise that through Abraham's seed, all the nations would be blessed etc are all rolled up into the few passages. Basically there's a unique and specific theological messaging going on in Acts 2 (the institution of the new temple and the gathering of the nations back, in broad terms) that narrowing the meaning of the gift of tongues using just it, will obscure its range of usage.

But as I mentioned earlier, I do understand where you are coming from and taking a page from the scriptures, speaking or praying in tongues in corporate gathering doesn't help much(1 Corinthians 14:13-19) since it does more for the speaker than the hearers. But taking the scripture as a whole, outside of Acts 2, tongues is used as a form of unintelligible speech to the speaker or hearer(if there's no accompanying gift of interpretation present) mainly spoken as a form of prayer or praise to God.

Like the post above mine says, it appears there are still sins that you are holding onto and are not willing to let God come into those aspects of your life. Our body is the temple of God not any special building. Apostle Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 6:18-19
"Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,"

It really doesn't really matter whether you go to a church or not ,as long as you realise your body is the real temple and not any external building, then whatever you commit to your body is the same as defiling God's space. Sexual sins are one of the few sins the new testament constantly hammered on becauseos it's really that serious.

With that being said, I empathize with you brother, sex is a very strong urge and most of us struggle with it at some point. This is where God's grace and Christ's love comes in, Like Paul writing again in 2 Corinthians 12:9a
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” (Christ speaking here).
The thing is, you have to be truly willing to let God to come into this part of your life and you have to be truly willing to change. At this point, the HolySpirit begins to work through you and in you. It might be instantaneous or it might be a legit struggle of falling and getting back up, it doesn't matter, the major thing is to truly let God in and lean on his grace.

As for why we go to church... Well that's our community and our family. We go to worship as a family,to learn and to be part be part of a community of Jesus followers that help each other run the Christain race. The Christain race is a marathon not a sprint so we all need one another to lean on and encourage.
Basically the church is a worship based, educational, egalitarian, philanthropic, fictive group. Whatever you can think of as the role of a true family, thats what the church (community of Jesus followers) is meant to be. Like the writer of Hebrews wrote
"and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. Hebrews 10:24‭-‬25 NASB"
So it's not really a good idea to stay away from being part of the community. Salvation is personal, but the race was not designed to be run alone.

And as for the people you talked about... Everyone has what they are struggling with and that's part of the need for the family, to encourage eachother and stimulating eachother to good deeds like Hebrews 10 above. There are real life consequences for sin no doubt but there is no damnation for those who abide in Christ Jesus. People who are not sick don't need a doctor, people who are saints don't need Jesus.
Maybe it's you who God will end up using to encourage your Facebook sister to become better and stand more firmly... Who knows

Usually when a major event shocks the world like the rise of the 3rd Reich and the second world war or the current Covid-19 pandemic, we usually try and find meaning and solace in apocalyptic literatures like parts of the book of Daniel, the book of Revelation, parts of Ezekiel etc (popularly known as end time scriptures).
Problem is, these books are usually misunderstood and misinterpreted because of the heavy symbolisms and language used in them which are unfamiliar to us. Below is a very short and interactive video on how to read these types of literature more accurately.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNDX4tUdj1Y

Its a pretty good introductory video for most people.
For anyone who wants to take a deeper dive into how to read these books better (especially for those in pastoral ministry), there are some really good resources out there that can help.
I.e https://www.logos.com/guides/commentaries/best-commentaries-revelation and a host of others.

Hope this helps.

MuttleyLaff:
On the contrary, it is driven by your your "id" and not your "ego" your "super-ego"

Be my guest. Wallow in ignorance, this is the prize you get because of your "id"

It is well

The whole stuff about Constantine and co could be easily fact checked that he instituted Christmas to align with the state's historical pagan festival tradition. You dont want to accept that the early Christian theologians didnt have the clout to make legislation, enforce and compel this practice as state policy.

As I have advanced, Constantine merged two traditions from the Roman festival, the December 17-25 week long pagan feast, called the Saturnalia and the birth of Mithras, the Persian god of light festival, with the nativity story in the Bible and the rest is history, on how Christmas was officially born

All I said was that, in the real sense of the word, it was Constantine who commissioned, the building of the Church of the nativity on a spot in Bethlehem assumed to be the exact birthplace of Christ. It was not any of the the early Christian theologians. I even volunteered a resource, I advised you to go check out, which again reproduced, the below excerpt, on who then, first made Christmas official and declared December 25th a civic holiday, lol.

"While there is one record of Christmas being celebrated in Antioch (Turkey) on December 25 in the middle of the second century, there is no record of its being observed on that date in Rome until the year 336 AD. In 350 AD Pope Julius I declared December 25 the official date and in 529 AD Emperor Justinian declared Christmas a civic holiday. Further legislation by the Council of Tours in 567 AD officially made Advent a period of fasting and preparation; the time from Christmas to Epiphany (the twelve days of Christmas) was also declared part of the festive season"
Excerpt from:
https://www.lnstar.com/mall/main-areas/xmas-not-first-choice.htm

And You just proved my point. Your resource is some blog by some people called globalbusinesscafe/lone star where there's no information on who they are, where they are getting their information from or atleast if they are qualified to be their own source or even anything remotely close to anything really.
This is exactly what I was saying in my previous post.

Just to quickly clarify it. Look at the dates written in your exerts, the earliest is 336AD and like I told you before,
the first day 336AD was not an official declaration. It comes from an old list of the death days of christian bishops with the first entry being
December 25: natus Christus in Betleem Judeae: “Christ was born in Bethlehem of Judea
It doesn't tell us there was any state celebration on that day, it was just an official list of bishops death days. You can go check it out.
The next one is 350AD, Constantine died in 337AD...The others are in the 500's AD so there's no point even talking about them.
Like I said before, The earliest document to suggest that Christianity intentionally changed a pagan feast day to that of the birth of Christ comes from the 12th century (Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi). He wrote that Christians moved to day of Christ's birth back from January 6 to December 25th to coincide with the sol Invictus holiday and for some reason later biblical scholars ran with it and it later became popularized in the media. But more modern scholarships has shown that not to be true.
This again, you can check it up.
Anyway,it's fine. At this point, too much energy has been exerted on a very trivial matter.

Will you please desist from opening and picking up healed wounds

What are you talking about here again? Which old wound are you talking about?

Stop dwelling on it. Let it go. I have

I don't even know what you are talking about ,talkless of dwelling on it...

Likeness and image is the intention of the Godhead to make man like. Aside Genesis 1:26-27, for starters, go read up Genesis 5:1&3, in order, to get a proper handle and clearer perspective of what was unfolding

Sigh... There's just so much you don't but somehow you don't realise that whatever you think you know now is always going to be a fraction of what is to be known.
It's not a jab,it's something even people who are well respected in the field ascribe to.

Well man to man, I'm a bit disappointed with the things that have transpired these past couple of days. There's much to be said but being a public forum, its best to leave them unsaid.

In any case, it's all good. No harm no foul

MuttleyLaff:
Its not simply and just okay, but the summation that "Conception, fertilisation, impregnation et cetera is different to delivery, childbirth et cetera." is incontrovertible fact

Like I said previously, the conversation is been driven by ego than anything else and at which point there's really no reason to continue.

You dont know what you're talking about. Go check my timeline, to see that I have just returned from a brief hiatus

So you dont know what "id", "ego" and "super-ego" are, yet you recklessly was throwing about the term "ego"

I'm just going to ignore this part.

Never mind, it must be something trivia, I observed and misconstrued it to be resentment and/or unconscious bias (i.e. the thread, Religion / Re: I'm Beginning To Reason With Jehovah Witness On Their Stand Concerning Trinity et cetera)

Bro, Are you serious right now? This was the only conversation we had on that thread

MuttleyLaff:
jamesid29 hey, long time no see around.

Baba Ravi Zacharias RIP, nailed the concept of trinity on its head.

Fact is, God can't be boxed. I love the multi-dimensional illustration Baba used and so why I stamped my like on that post.

jamesid29:
Hey boss, yea it's been a minute. Hope you are good

Where is the seething and scheming here? How did you misconstrue this?
Were you expecting something special or something? You know that's not how this works.

I didnt want you receiving any notification and so why I used jamesid\29 instead of jamesid29

I don't comment much on nairaland so I don't know most of this tricks. So Imagine my surprise seeing a convo that I thought was honest and ended on a good note. The whole stuff about Constantine and co could be easily fact checked and I just assumed you did that.

Things like these are not big deals. On the faith thread (https://www.nairaland.com/5997053/what-faith-really/4#92042066) where I gave the man props for his exposition on Hebrew 11:1, I didn't just give him props because what he said sounded good to my hears. I actually went to check out his usage of hypostasis in classical Greek and it held up, hence my giving him props for taking a interesting approach in interpreting the text. It gave me something interesting to ponder on and it ended up raising other questions(great thing about the Bible...you strike one down, other questions pop up) but I didn't think we needed to get into it those questions at the time since it was going to take us down a rabbit hole.
I just assumed you did that in the December 25th stuff thread and I moved on.
There's so much wrong information on the world today that it's good to have good & solid information out there also especially in the matters of faith, cos you never know the kind of burden you are putting on another person or how a particular kind of information affects other people.
These things are not just about winning arguments, it literally life and death on the line for some people (I mean salvation here). To show you how misinformation can take a life of its own, today we have people who believe the Pauline Letters are forgeries by the Catholic church because one blog said so, effectively cutting themselves of from major doctrines. Even a fiction book(not even something that claims to be historical)" the davinci code" rocked alot of people's faith. This things are trivial but it really does affect people, so we have to be careful of the information we put out there, especially the ones we have the option to check how factual they are, because it's one thing to share information that we think is true even if they are not bit it's another thing to keep sharing them when someone else calls them into question. Again these things does affect real people.

Yeah,It's easy to say people are lazy for not digging these informations themselves but the reality is we all have different gifts. I might be able to break down the rape laws in Bible and put them in historical and cultural context as the HolySpirit helps me but actually being able to console someone who was really raped is something I won't be of much help.it would be hard for know the right words to use. Someone else who knows zilch about ancient cultures or what not might have the gift to help that person a whole lot better than I can.
So the best way I can help is to make sure to the best of my ability, I get accurate information across to people with other gifts, so they can in turn do what they are good at better. Thats the way I see things.

I did not take anything you wrote personally, it was merely a case of, I observed a developed pattern, worth mentioning

I'm still lost on this one?

I am equipped to when appropriate and led, to give as good, as I get.

You have to be careful with that one... You don't want to win a couple of battles but loose the war. You have to constantly ask yourself, what's the cost?

"²⁶Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness,
to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock,
and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.
²⁷So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him;
male and female He created them"
- Genesis 1:26-27

I like red, as the colour, exudes an air of love, romance, boldness, courage, danger etcetera to me. We, human beings, are the image representation of different attributes of God. God is incorporeal, but created, human beings to physically project different aspect, images and likeness of the Godhead.

Image is instant, while likeness is continuum. The latter, is evident in Genesis 1:27, as seen above. Notice that the mention of "likeness" is left unsaid, in Genesis 1:27. Why? its because its continuum. Now, it is unfortunate that, ever since God took the adventure to create man in His image and likeness, man retrospectively has had the desire to want to return the favour and wilfully contravene "The Second Commandment" (i.e. Exodus 20:4- You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth) by creating God in his image, according to an atypical representation, formulation, theory, perverted idea, and classic misrepresentation of God

God is, incorporeal, hence has no clear definite shape or size, but Jesus Christ, is the product of God, projecting Himself out, as a human being in the person of Jesus Christ on earth. Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God (i.e. 2 Corinthians 4:4b - Christ, who is the image of God and Philippians 2:6-7 - ⁶Though he was God, He did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.⁷Instead, He gave up his divine privileges; He took the humble position of a slave and was born as a human being. When He appeared in human form. Or, Colossians 1:15 - Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation)

Fair enough. Though, The image of God concept and what it truly means to be human is a much deeper conversation than that. Maybe some other time we can go back and forth on it.

You jump to conclusions. I never said you abhorred me or have ill feelings towards me. I inferred that I observed a developed pattern

Mr MuttleyLaff, you said I was seething and scheming to get you. It doesn't get more ill feelings than that.

I have already shown my hands, laid my cards on the table, facing up with Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18, Luke 2:8-15 and summarising with "Conception, fertilisation, impregnation et cetera is different to delivery, childbirth et cetera." I am more than happy to share with you sources of information, that expatiate on the conception and birth of Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour of the whole wide worldhood.

You seem to be more interested in winning an argument than admitting you were wrong. You and I both know this is not what the conversation was about...it's best to drop the conversation at this point.

MuttleyLaff:
Mister jamesid29, you should expect me to not shy from saying it as it is.

The discourse is in public domain, its not classified, that no one havent got access to to check the contents of the discourse between us. Please you are old enough and way past, not to be playing the tantrum and/or victim card(s) here

jamesid29, you seem to forget you were wavering on that thread. You were undecided between at least two to three different opinions.

The thread is alive and visible, nobody has misrepresented nor distorted the conversation. Yes, I have presented excerpts from the original conversation, but I certainly havent changed anything you wrote. I am not sure where your idea of "muddy the waters" comes from, when the crux of your argument was based on patristic sentiments with you gravitating towards them, so why I typed that, what you dont seem to understand, is that, the proponents of December 25th, promoters like your darlings, Bishop Hippolytus and Julius Sextus Africanus, (i.e. the early Christian theologians circa era of the first five centuries) leaning on Jewish tradition, are pinning the birthday of Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour of the whole wide world, on the time of His conception, which falls on December 25th. I, then added that, if you don't concur with this, you then can be my guest, do the math and to have a "satori"

"The angel replied,
"The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.
So the Holy One to be born will be called the Son of God."
- Luke 1:35

"This is how Jesus the Messiah was born.
His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph.
But before the marriage took place, while she was still a virgin,
she became pregnant through the power of the Holy Spirit"
- Matthew 1:18

"⁸That night there were shepherds staying in the fields nearby, guarding their flocks of sheep.
⁹Suddenly, an angel of the Lord appeared among them, and the radiance of the Lord’s glory surrounded them. They were terrified,
¹⁰but the angel reassured them. “Don’t be afraid!” he said. “I bring you good news that will bring great joy to all people.
¹¹The Savior—yes, the Messiah, the Lord—has been born today in Bethlehem, the city of David!
¹²And you will recognize him by this sign: You will find a baby wrapped snugly in strips of cloth, lying in a manger.”
¹³Suddenly, the angel was joined by a vast host of others—the armies of heaven—praising God and saying,
¹⁴“Glory to God in highest heaven,
and peace on earth to those with whom God is pleased.”
¹⁵When the angels had returned to heaven, the shepherds said to each other, “Let’s go to Bethlehem! Let’s see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has told us about.”"
- Luke 2:8-15

If this sentiment, consoles you and makes you feel better, then so be it and be my guest, the fact remains that you are mixing up gestation (i.e. Luke 1:35 and Matthew 1:18) period, with time of birth (i.e. Luke 2:11). They are chalk and cheese, salt and sugar, look alike, but aren't the same thing.

Conception, fertilisation, impregnation et cetera is different to delivery, childbirth et cetera.

Okay

Mister jamesid29, ego and super ego, are good, it is "id" you need to be wary of, the sort you had displayed, ever since you ambushed me on that thread and since then after, you have been commenting on my posts grudgingly. I knew you were seething, so I have coyly been withholding responding to you jumping on my posts to comment. "Id" obviously and not ego or super ego,, reigned supreme in your case

I can biblically hold my ground with my original position of circa September/October, can the same be said of you?. Are you capable and able to use scripture to back up your position and do so, without being tentative. You can't straddle the fence

Seriously bro don't take this the wrong way but you need to take a break from nairaland and rejuvenate. If it's gotten to the point where you believe people thousands of miles away are seething and plotting against you and you've been making up plans and strategies against them in your heart, I think it's a good time to take a step back and rejuvenate.

As in, which ambush,what thread, what are you talking about? Mehnnnn..... I wish you could literally see my face right now.
What is "Id"? Who's been commenting on your post grudgingly? As I can recall, ever since I've been back on nairaland, it's you who mostly mentions me and I either reply or like accordingly. Matter of fact I'm only on this thread because you posted a conversation with my username in it and I responded to that...other than that I wouldn't have been on this thread in the first place(I tend not to dabble in all the black Hebrew stuff).
Other than that, anybody that post something interesting to me, I drop my comments and move. Funny enough, I mostly try not to be confrontational because from experience, once ego kicks in on either or both sides, reason goes out the window and the whole point having a conversation is defeated. But alas I'm human and sometimes I get ticked off or plainly not in the mood and I can get confrontational with my comments....
Maybe it's one of those you took personally and have ever since been parsing anything I post through that lens.

Mehnnnn??seriously though, taking breaks from places like this is usually good. That's what I do personally and even planning to do so soon. It's hard to be in a place like nairaland or twitter where people under the cloak of anonymity feel confident showcasing the worst tendencies of the human heart and not change gradually. It's very hard seeing the raw tendencies of the human heart and not begin to respond accordingly no matter how little. Sure some people have the anointing for being in a place like this for long periods and not to change and I'm happy for them but far more of us don't have such an anointing.
For example, I've never had a tribalistic bone in my body. Went to a multicultural secondary school, spent my young adulthood in a place where noone cares if you are Igbo,yoruba, zulu or Ghanaian, you are all blacks and we all stuck together. Imagine my surprise when nairaland and Twitter started showing how much hatred people of different tribes harbour in their hearts for eachother. If not for deep rooted experiences from my younger days that when push comes to shove, tribe doesn't matter, I'll also have been developing sinister thoughts towards other tribes no matter how little. Even at that, Im still always very cautious of what I allow get to me, hence periodically taken step backs.
Places like this train us to see the worst in people and we respond accordingly because we expect the worst from them. And you know the old saying, whatever you call Harry, Harry eventually becomes. So in the end, we end up with a feedback loop of hatred and so on.
For all the good platforms like this can do, that's just one of the dark sides.
That's just some humble thoughts from one human to another. No sinister motives in it.

On the flip side, This is good.... atleast everything can be laid out in the open and trashed accordingly. Regardless of what you think of me and our differences (we would probably have a lot) , we are still brothers in Christ.
Yeah, sure we will have some good conversations and sometimes we would have some confrontational ones. That's just part of the human experience. Paul and Peter, Paul and Barnabas, the early church fathers etc had their moments but that doesn't change their oneness in Christ.
Even if you're not a Christain, that doesn't change anything because we are all human and are all images of God and deserve the same love and respect.
(Fun fact: image of God is another interesting rabbit trail. Mehnnnn, the Bible bro. I spent a huge chunk of last year and now this year recurringly on parsing just Gen: 1&2 and there's just still alot to get through. As in, this are the types of conversations you have for hours with people going back and forth, reefing of eachother, going back back home, parsing things out and coming back another day to continue with the conversation. But sadly nairaland is not built for such conversations, so what can we do, we stuck with having to give simplistic answers to really complex questions... but the Bible mehn. Sometimes I just wish more people could see these things or pick interest in it. Interesting that you mentioned Dr Heiser, He's one of my go-to people on ancient new eastern culture, so we have that in common.... I've digressed to much)

In conclusion my brother, I abhour no I'll feelings towards you. I do not claim I am above abhouring such feelings against another human being but like I stated above, I'll much rather leave the space before it gets to that point.
Yes, in a small community like this religion forum, there will always be possibility of locking horns on certain threads with you or with some other person but for it to escalate to deep seated animosity, I'll rather leave. It's a constant prayer on my part both online and offline, because I know from experience that hate is alot easier to come by than love.

So Mr MuttleyLaff, I have no deep seated animosity against you but please if you still have anything you feel we need to trash out, feel free to bring it and we can trash it out together(so that when next I tackle you, you go know say no be targeted tackling, na just that thread cos am, lol). But on a more serious note though, if we need to trash out some things, I'm all ears and I am not above saying sorry, if the need arises.

MuttleyLaff:

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You are a funny character sha Mr jamesid29, not only have you not laid in wait and ambush me more than on one occasion, but you seem to be seething and this has led to your latest point of accusing me of guilt tripping others, with you expecting me to lie down, roll over and take the allegation, just like that, without so much of seeing your proof(s). Smh

Why dont you go back to re-read my first post on that thread to see whether my motive was to create a guilt-trip for anyone in particular. Now, fyi, I stand by my original submission, that from deductive reasoning, using the bible and other resources, God incarnate, Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour of the whole wide world, was born circa the month of September/October.

Now what you dont seem to understand is that, the proponents of December 25th, promoters like your darlings, Bishop Hippolytus and Julius Sextus Africanus, leaning on Jewish tradition, are pinning the birthday of Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour of the whole wide world, on the time of His conception, which falls on December 25th. If you don't concur with this, then be my guest, do the math and have a "satori"

I have better games, I would love to play but your suggested, nondescript playing cat and mouse, isn't one of them. Sorry.

Brother, you say, "the conversation was about whether the 25th date itself was derived from pagan origins or independent of it and also on if Constantine was responsible for choosing the date(which is historically incorrect)" but the truth and fact of the matter is that, Constantine instituted and officially established that day and he selected the December 25th date, done in homage to pagan festival of Saturnalia (i.e. the ancient Roman festival of Saturn in December for indulging in wild revelry and reckless indulgences)

For some reason I didn't expect all this from you.
You found every possible way to misrepresent or distort our conversation. Even going as far as positing what I originally wrote on the other thread in a bid to muddy the waters again.

jamesid29:
Actually that's not really factual and it's one of those misconception about Constantine's influence on Christianity that has been around for so long, that most people just tend to believe it's true. I believe it's right up there with "Constantine choosing the Christian Canon and him making Jesus God".
In reality the proposal of December 25th as the birthday of Jesus predates Constantine or any pagan influence. The earliest allusion to 25th comes from Bishop Hippolytus sometime around 202 ad
"The first coming of our Lord, that in the flesh, in which he was born at Bethlehem, took place eight days before the Kalends of January, a Wednesday, in the forty-second year of the reign of Augustus, 5500 years from Adam.”
This translates to December 25th, 2 BC. Also Julius Sextus Africanus came up with the same date around the same time. This is basically over a hundred years before Constantine and decades before Aurelian .

December 25th was not the only date that was proposed by the early church as Clement of Alexandria writes around 200 ad that different groups also proposed different dates
“There are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord’s birth, but also the day; and they say that it took place in the 28th year of Augustus, and in the 25th day of Pachon [May 20 ] … And treating of His Passion, with very great accuracy, some say that it took place in the 16th year of Tiberius, on the 25th of Phamenoth [March 21]; and others on the 25th of Pharmuthi [April 21] and others say that on the 19th of Pharmuthi [April 15] the Savior suffered. Further, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi [April 20 or 21].”
So for the first 200 yrs of Christianity, the church was silent on the birthday of Christ but apparently by the late 2nd century and early 3rd century there was an interest in pin pointing the date but this interest had nothing to do with pagan influence. It's worth noting that Christians during this period were still a persecuted minority group within the Roman empire,and they did their best to separate themselves from pagan practices and celebrations.
By the early 4th century before the conversion of Constantine, 2 dates were the leading ones, 25th of December and 6th of January( Mainly in the East) even though there was no official festivity associated with them.

There are a couple of leading theories of how these 2 dates were calculated as the Bible doesn't give much information but the most widely accepted one is:

Integral age: this concept has it's roots in Judaism. The basic idea is, all prophets of God enter and exit the world on the same day (Basically conception and death fall on the same day). So when the western church calculated the death of Christ as falling on the 25th of March (14th day of Nisan) it also meant he was conceived on the 25th of March. Add nine months to that and you get 25th of December as the day of birth.
The Eastern church calculation of the crucifixion fell on the 14th day of Artemisios on the Greek calendar which is April 6th. Add nine months and you get January 6.

There are other ways the dates were calculated devoid of pagan influence like the equinox and creation day theories attested to by church fathers writing.

As for the elephant in the room, theres no doubt that we can find pagan influences in the present day celebration of Christmas but this influences come mainly from the later centuries(the 6th century and beyond) as Christianity expanded into western and northern Europe. At this point the church didn't have much of a problem in borrowing from pagan practices and religions. But the date itself is not pagan in origin.

The earliest document to suggest that Christianity intentionally changed a pagan feast day to that of the birth of Christ comes from the 12th century (Syriac biblical commentator Dionysius bar-Salibi). He wrote that Christians moved to day of Christ's birth back from January 6 to December 25th to coincide with the sol Invictus holiday and for some reason later biblical scholars ran with it and it later became popularized in the media. But more modern scholarships has shown that not to be true.

I guess you checked it out and it held up.

Anyway, it's fine. It seems this is more of an ego thing than anything else.

MuttleyLaff:
What of, where and how I have guilt tripped?

Sigh...You really are intentionally grasping at every other thing of less importance rather than the facing the main crust of the conversation... it's gotten tiring. We are both too old to be playing cat and mouse.

MuttleyLaff:
Its MuttleyLaff and not Mr Mutt and also please show where or how I guilt trip anyone. Smh.

Okay sir.

MuttleyLaff:
Its a pity and weirder that you've allowed "id" get the better of you. If you read the bible well and good enough, you'll get the insight that Jesus was born circa the month of September/October. Now again, I repeat that considerable time has passed enough for you to brush up on any truth decay by now. You were tentative as can be seen from the immediate two mention of you extracts reproduced above, you even said something to the effect that "you can live with my submission", so if you now are certain, I've Kindly asked you to then revisit the thread so we roll on from last rendezvous, where I'll show you from deductive reasoning using the bible how Jesus was born circa the month of September/October

Mr Mutt. I can see you are determined to misrepresent the whole conversation and only present the part you know we both largely agree on while intentionally leaving out the crust of the conversation which was always

jamesid29:
As you can see from what I wrote, the conversation was not about the most likely birth month of Christ based on current assumptions we make today....the conversation was about whether the 25th date itself was derived from pagan origins or independent of it and also on if Constantine was responsible for choosing the date(which is historically incorrect).

.

Maybe you should start reading from where we started and work your way down incase you want to recall what the conversation was about. (Our entire convo was 3 posts in total so it shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes).
https://www.nairaland.com/5602350/where-it-bible#85329096

Or at the very least read the entire statement I made when I briefly touched on the September dating

To your remarks about the September date as the birthday of Christ... I know of it also and I know it's the best bet calculations we have as of today but with a gun to my head, I wouldn't lay my down my life on the certainty of September as the birthday of Christ and I don't know of any body (most of whom accept the September dating) who would stake their careers on saying definitively that September is the exact month Christ was born( the answer is usually " most likely" ).
The problem is with such little information given in the scriptures and very little extra biblical account of his birth written in reliable sources, we are mostly forced to make assumptions in our calculations that can't be proven. It's like accurately calculating the creation date or when exactly the flood of noahs time happened down to the day and month. There's such little information available that it's like trying to pull water from a rock.

For me I like to play such datings safe hence my goto answer being "it's unclear"... but if someone is persistent and just wants a best guess date, I'll say the most likely dating is September with the information we have today but I will still butress my statement with "that's the best answer we have with the assumptions we make currently"
But If you sir are convinced totally with the September dating, that's also fine as either way doesn't touch on the tenets of faith or doctrine.

Again this was not the bone of contention... How the date itself was arrived at and if it had its origins with Constantine or paganism was the bone of contention.

And trying to use the part I edited out about how modern people ascribe so many things to Constantine which are not factual (so we don't derail the conversation into another rabbit hole), to seem like I changed my mind and added things to the conversation after the fact when you know that is not true is something I quite frankly didn't expect from you.... but it's all good.

Like I said earlier,it is well... Atleast you guys should stop guilt tripping others with informations that are not historical and factual especially for things that don't add or remove from the major tenets of the faith.

MuttleyLaff:
Its weirder you allowed id get the better of you. If you read the bible well and good enough, you'll get the insight He was born circa the month of September/October.

jamesid29:
....For me I like to play such datings safe hence my go to answer being "it's unclear"... but if someone is persistent and just wants a best guess date, I'll say the most likely dating is September with the information we have today but I will still butress my statement with "that's the best answer we have with the assumptions we make currently"
But If you sir are convinced totally with the September dating, that's also fine as either way doesn't touch on the tenets of faith or doctrine.

As you can see from what I wrote, the conversation was not about the most likely birth month of Christ based on current assumptions we make today....the conversation was about whether the 25th date itself was derived from pagan origins or independent of it and also on if Constantine was responsible for choosing the date(which is historically incorrect).
It's quite telling though, that you ignored most of what was written by me and only pasted out a very minute part of the conversation.(effectively putting it in a different context and misrepresenting what was originally meant and discussed).

jamesid29:
Edited out. Realized that what I wrote here would take us down another path. Sorry about that.

Enjoy your holidays sir..

Considerable time has passed enough for you to brush up on any truth decay by now. You were tentative as can be seen from the above reproduced immediate two mention extracts, if you now are certain, kindly then revisit the thread so we roll on from last rendezvous

That post marked as edited out was a post on how we in the 21st century usually overestimates Constantine's influence on christainity. Constantine was influential no doubt but quite a number of things being ascribed to him today by blogs and al were either before him, after him or sometimes just plainly untrue.
It was edited out that same day because like I wrote above, it would take us down a different conversation and I didn't think that was necessary.

I'm pretty sure it was you who left the thread and I just assumed you went to check up on the historicity of the things that were presented.
The thread is still open for you to present your reply on what you think is incorrect...

MuttleyLaff:

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I find it weird that even after correcting the historicity of your beliefs on the Christmas date and Constantine, you're still comfortable using it(though this time it seems it's for a good cause).

Anyway,it is well. I'll leave you guys to it then.

Tamaratonye5:
Pretty sure I did not, I merely pointed out there isn’t a shred of objective evidence for any creation myth. Any other assertion is of your own construct I'm afraid.

Below is your exact statement I quoted, exactly the way I quoted it and my exact question. The whole premise was for you to clarify your statement, which could have easily been answered with a, "this was what I was tracking when I made that statement"...but your reply was on a whole different tangent. I'm not sure why you trying to pitch your tent on something that is documented.

Tamaratonye5: I can have no problem with deities or creation since I don't believe the universe was created, and I don’t believe in any extant deity.

james29: Really not trying to derail the thread, just want you to quickly clarify the bolded. What do you mean by the universe wasn't created?

You can check back and read your reply and guage if it was a response to my question or a response to a question you made up.
https://www.nairaland.com/5997053/what-faith-really/2#91968803

That's why logic is necessary, it is a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, in order to filter out bias and of course superstitions like religions.

Most Christians, like the ones here, don't
have a developed epistemology or dont even know zilch about their epistemology, so they come here thinking they know it all but don't realize how bad they actually embarrass themselves.

How many people on this thread care for the truth? If you are not willing to change if you discover truth is different than what you think it currently is, then you don't care for the truth.

It seems you missed the point I was making. Basically I pointing out the realities of human nature from behavioural science but again you seem to have sliced and misconstrued it for an avenue for a "stick it to the Christain" reply.

No that’s nonsense again, there are known logical fallacies, these are called common logical fallacies if they occur in informal logic. Theists use these type of fallacies all the time, as you have done above using straw man fallacies about atheism.

I pretty sure you can't point out any of my statement that is a straw man fallacy about atheism. You just made that up or assumed it. You're kinda making the point on my previous post though. You are not replying to what I wrote, rather you are replying to what you would have liked me to write.

Have you noticed that you constantly slice my statements up(sometimes pulling out statements in the middle of a sentence) so it can better fit in to your preconceived notion of "he's a Christain so this is what I want him to mean".

And I'm pretty sure, you've also noticed that you constantly sidestep main issues but latch onto things that you a feel gives you an excuse to rail against how stupid every one is asides you, even though that has never been the premise of our conversation.

There is no animosity here, I'm just here to learn. However I can't deny that it's been a shitfest thus far here. So far it's the same old same old. People assigning imaginary arguments to me, or committing strawmen by putting labels on me such as my being an evolutionist. In the midst of all the games the countless dishonest apologists present on this thread are hell bent on playing, absolutely zero, zilch, nada has been offered in terms of substance. None of them, not one, has succeeded in demonstrating objective evidence for any deity.

It's never been a subject of our conversation but Okay

You may want to give a comeback of your own and probably read a whole different meaning to my statements, that's fine... but from my own end, I'll leave it at this.

pauloskie38:
HOW would you define faith? Some equate it with blind belief. Influential American essayist and journalist H. L. Mencken once called faith “an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable.”

The Bible, in contrast, describes faith as being neither blind nor illogical. God’s Word says: “Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.”​—Hebrews 11:1.

Given the different opinions about faith, let us consider the answers to the following questions:

• How is the Bible’s definition different from what many refer to when they talk about faith?

• Why is it vital that we develop the kind of faith that the Bible describes?

• How can you build strong faith?

A Title Deed and Solid Evidence

At the time of the writing of the Bible book of Hebrews, the Greek term translated “assured expectation” was commonly used. It often appeared in business documents and carried the idea of a guarantee of future possession of something. Therefore, one reference work suggests that Hebrews 11:1 could be translated: “Faith is the title-deed of things hoped for.”

If you have ever bought an item from a reputable company and then waited for it to be delivered, you have exercised that type of faith. The sales receipt in your hand gave you reason for faith in the company from which you bought the item. In a sense, that receipt was your title deed, your guarantee that you would receive what you purchased. If you had lost the receipt or had thrown it away, you would have lost the proof of your claim of ownership. Similarly, those who have faith that God will fulfill his promises are guaranteed to receive what they hope for. On the other hand, those who do not have faith, or who lose it, are not entitled to receive the things God promises.​—James 1:5-8.

The second expression at Hebrews 11:1, translated “evident demonstration,” carries the idea of producing evidence that contradicts that which only appears to be factual. For instance, the sun appears to revolve around the earth​—rising in the east, moving through the sky, and setting in the west. However, evidence from astronomy and mathematics reveals that the earth is not the center of the solar system. Once you become familiar with that evidence and accept it as true, you have faith that the earth revolves around the sun​—despite what your eyes tell you. Your faith is not blind. On the contrary, it gives you the ability to see things as they really are, not merely as they seem to be.

How Important Is Strong Faith?

This is the type of faith that the Bible encourages​—strong faith built on solid evidence, even if it requires that we adjust our beliefs. Such faith is vital. The apostle Paul wrote: “Without faith no one can please God. Anyone who comes to God must believe that he is real and that he rewards those who truly want to find him.”​—Hebrews 11:6, New Century Version.

There are many challenges to developing strong faith. But if you take the four steps discussed on the following pages, you can succeed.

Interesting breakdown. Never really taught of James 1 that way.
Well done sir

Tamaratonye5:
I don't mean anything by it, as I never did say the universe wasn't created. Your question was disingenuous.

You actually did,hence my question....But it's all good.

Really? Obviously I wasn't aware, or I would not have made such mistakes.

Well, I'll venture to say it's because you are human. Just to digress a bit: The truth is, We humans are really not rational... We all filter the world through personal bias, prejudices & worldview. Humans are capable of objective logical reasoning, that's why we can spot deficiencies in others but when push comes to shove, we mostly make decisions based on emotions and bias rather than objective reasoning regardless of education or religious affiliation. There's a really good book on behavioural economics called Misbehaving: it's a good read. Or you can check out any other good book on one of the behavioural sciences incase you are interested in stuffs like this.

From my own experience and mine alone(so I could be wrong), whenever I get into a conversation where someone starts using words like "that's a so & so fallacy" alot, I just believe that conversation would not go anywhere... Mainly because I believe, we have already assumed a position of objective rationality(which is untrue)and put something on the table neither of us can uphold.... I regularly see where in the process of calling out the other side's fallacy, people end up making other fallacies or sometimes even the same one they are calling the person out for. Cos We are all human.

For me, a better conversation is when we both recognise our differences in worldview/bias and when one party is interpreting something wrongly, its simply pointed out and an explanation is given why their interpretation might be wrong. You end up agreeing on some things and disagreeing on others. At the end of the day everyone walks away, at the very least knowing a bit about how the other side is parsing the same information. That's just my own personal prejudice.

One of my reasons for spending time here is to learn. I would appreciate it if you would point out the fallacies I made.

I can make the case of your reply being an ignoratio elenchi. But as I said above it's really not that important and doesn't make for good conversation (atleast from my own prejudice).

Warpath? Me? Nah, I'm not even warmed up. I don't suffer fools. Based on experience, virtually all of the apologists I've met on Nairaland are pretty foolish, or if you prefer, willfully pig ignorant, arrogant, patronisng and intellectually dishonest.

Ouch I guess.

I believe I've derailed the thread enough though, so I'll just step aside.

Tamaratonye5:
I beg your pardon, what is it about "created’ you don’t understand?

Does this help? Definition of create

It’s not a complex idea. And yes, "created" does infer a creator.

This atheist is not able to believe the universe had a creator. All I can say with confidence is the universe exists. That it seems to have begun with the so-called big bang. I can’t prove that, either can anyone else as far as I'm aware.

To say therefore "god did it" is facile and shallow, in my opinion. Also a logical fallacy "god of the gaps".The fallacy finds its genesis in an argument from ignorance. IE : "I lack the knowledge, imagination and the wit to think of anything else, and my dogmatic certitude will not allow me to simply say I don’t know"

I guess you are really on a war path. Anyway, I actually wanted to get a sense of what you truly meant.

Well, the inflationary big bang model is the only workable model that accurately describes our universe and the space-time theorems do not allow for a universe that is infinite to the past. There's simply no workable theory that accurately describes our universe that bypasses the finitude of the universe to the past.

There are some ways of speculating though, ie The CCC.
And hmm No, the fact that the universe has a beginning and a creation event does not automatically say God. All it means is there's an agent beyond space-time that started the whole shabang. You could postulate that the fundamental laws are themselves that agent eternal. To say God or go any other way, would require putting other pieces on the table, but the BVG and the inflationary big bang model on their own do not tell us anything about the existence of God cos its outside of what they can describe. All they tell at face value is that "In the beginning was the beginning... and that beginning was in the finite past(not eternal). And here are the parameters under which it exist"... Anything outside of that requires a different set of lenses and conversation.
Again I actually just wanted to see what you were tracking but I guess your answer is "You don't know."

It's kinda rich though that you are so quick in accusing me of some fallacy when you were making like 1 or 2 fallacies of your own. Anyway,it's fine...

Modified

Tamaratonye5:
I can have no problem with deities or creation since I don't believe the universe was created, and I don’t believe in any extant deity.

Really not trying to derail the thread, just want you to quickly clarify the bolded. What do you mean by the universe wasn't created?

olasunkanmii:
Ge 5:2 implies a dual creation from the ground for the first created male and female because the common name of Adam was given to both of them. Only the Lilith legend explains the simultaneous creation of both the male and female from the ground.

Lilith’s rebellion explains why God suddenly rescinded permission to eat of every tree, why the tree of knowledge came to exist, and why Adam had to guard the garden.

Lilith’s departure explains how Adam suddenly “became alone” in Ge 2:18. The literal Hebrew of the verse reveals that God did not create Adam alone, but rather that Adam “became alone” after some time.

The OP in its self is not bad as it's just portraying the story of a legend and how people from different sides of the feminism divide are seizing onto it to make different statements, but the moment you start interpreting the Bible through the lense of a folklore then it becomes a problem.

The Lilith as Adam's first wife originated sometime around the 9th or 10th century AD in a Jewish writings, but the idea itself can be traced back to the Babylonian Talmud and possibly to a very brief story in a Midrash written sometime around 300- 500AD.
As you can see the whole legend comes from opinions and speculations of some rabbis living thousands of years after the Genesis story was written.

Adam having another wife is nowhere to be found in the Bible. These speculations arose as a way to try and explain the origin of evil and where demons come from but Just because one or two rabbis writing over a millennia after the account, had a thought doesn't mean the thought is correct and should be taken it as more than that... especially if it has no bases in the Bible itself.

The idea of Lilith as a type of demon itself, that sucks the breath out of babies at night and seduces men can be traced back to mesopotamian demonology and it's from here it gets imported into Jewish thinking before it ultimately gets attached to Adam as his wife in later folklore as stated above,but most of these information isn't important to most people.(just added it to cover all the points).

Like the apostle Paul writing under the influence of the HolySpirit said,
“All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. (1corinthians 10:23). Seeking to know in itself is not unlawful and actually commendable most times but not all knowledge is beneficial and reading folklore back into the Bible is definitely harmful.
So please lets remember to test all things and hold on to that which is true and good.

As for the literal Hebrew of the verse revealing that God did not create Adam alone, but rather that Adam “became alone” after some time, That's not correct sir.

LordReed:
https://www.nairaland.com/1412636/non-christian-chatbox-sticky/214#91759275

I could be wrong sir, but I don't think it's because the engagement were bereft of substance, but because you had already made up your mind a priori on what to believe and what not to believe. We all to some degree are guilty of this. Even upto holding onto things we can't necessarily substantiate.

I could be wrong again,but even if God shows up at your doorstop as you want, your mind at this stage would still find a way of rationalizing the experience away.
The human mind is capable of explaining away almost anything; A man can commit the worst atrocities and his mind can still find a way of rationalizing it; In Hitler's mind he thought he was doing his people a service by trying to start a master race. To be clear sir I'm not making a one-to-one relationship between you or anyone and Hitler, I'm just using an extreme example to show how powerful our minds can be in shaping reality even if when we are conscious it.

All in all sir, I truly wish you all the best in your next phase.

HappyPagan:
It's my birthday next month. I'll be 32. It's crazy... I dropped religion at 21. There's been a whole lot of unlearning, weeding my mind of seeds planted carefully long time ago. It's tough, very tough...but everyday I'm grateful I stopped listening to fear.

Unfortunately, I also developed a negative/pessimistic outlook on life.. rarely taking my self or thoughts serious. My life has been a bit out of balance the past few years, hopefully I can get back on track.

I don't want to be known as an ex-Christian. I think there's more to me than that...and I'm hoping time will reveal more...


Hope you good.. my thoughts may be a bit scattered. Hope they make sense..

Happy birthday in advance and God still loves you