₦airaland Forum

Imagine that the universe is a big ol' computer, and we're all just geekin' away.

Theists are using a GUI like windows or a MacOS. It's easy to use, intuitive, and adequate for most purposes. On the other hand, it uses a lot of resources, and interferes with their ability to get the most out of the system.

Because theists use a GUI, they have little understanding of The Way Things Are. This causes them to become confused easily. For example, Most say the buttons are real, but understand that they're not real in quite the same way as the keyboard buttons, and are happy to use the mouse to click them. Others insist that the buttons on the screen are actual, physical buttons. They insist on pressing them, and wonder why that doesn't work. The fact that a handful of them actually have touch-screens only confuses thing further. When they realize that the screen is covered with glass, they blame the Atheists for putting it there.

Some theists have noticed that if you get crumbs in the keyboard the computer won't work properly. They have concluded that eating over one's keyboard angers the Man in the Computer. If you do get crumbs in the keyboard, you must clean it carefully and place hard candy on the monitor.

As you might expect, Mac users think Windows users are Satanic, and vice versa. OS/2 and NEXT users go door to door on Sundays trying to convince others that their OS's are superior and would be in widespread use if it weren't for Bill Gates.

Most theists refuse to believe that it's all just Ones and Zeros, although some believe that The Man In The Box uses Ones and Zeros.

Atheists are using a command line interface like DOS or UNIX. It's fast and powerful, and they have all the control they need; but it can be very inhuman.

Atheists know that the computer can't get angry about crumbs in the keyboard, so they eat crackers while coding. They look down on theists for not having a better understanding of The Way Things Are, and think that they are idiots for thinking that all those icons and buttons and things are real.

Some atheists are happy to use a GUI sometimes, but hard-core Atheists insist on using the keyboard for everything. This makes it practically impossible for them to produce compelling art. They believe that a theistic conspiracy is somehow ruining their keyboards in an attempt to force them to use mice; they are at a loss to explain why theists would use cracker-crumbs to do this. They criticize theists for using a UI without ever really understanding that they are using UI too.

Mystics try to do everything using raw current. They know that there are no Ones and Zeros, just Current. They discard the mouse, the keyboard, and the monitor as being too worldly. Some replace them with banks of lights and switches. Others eschew even that and lick the circuit boards to test for current and close circuits. Most end up touching or licking the wrong thing and frying their brain. A few gain fantastic insight into The Way Things Are, but they never get anything of any significance done because they're too bogged down in details to see the big picture.

Enlightenment comes from understanding that different UI's have different strengths and weaknesses. The enlightened person also understands that familiarity can be strength in and of itself. The enlightened person knows that the GUI is an illusion, but also knows that the illusion is valuable. An enlightened person might use a Mac to edit a movie, Windows to play a game, and UNIX to write software. If their neighbor uses Windows to edit a movie, and a Mac to play a game, the enlightened person will accept, and perhaps even celebrate these differences. If someone tells the enlightened person that they should be using Windows 3.1 (the One True OS) the enlightened person will feel free to call that person an idiot. If the same person simply states that Windows 3.1 has always worked for them and they sees no reason upgrade, the enlightened person will nod their assent, and offer the person their copy of MS Word 1.0.


http://www.jhuger.com/mui

An Interview With God

I dreamed I had an interview with God.

"So you would like to interview me?" God asked.

"If you have the time" I said.

God smiled. "We have until your alarm clock rings.
What questions do you have in mind for me?"

"What surprises you most about humankind?"

God answered,
"That by worrying about the afterlife,
they throw away their one real life,
sometimes literally by trusting prayer instead of medicine,
or flying a plane into a building full of infidels."

"That with thousands dead from an 'Act of God',
they flock to churches like flies to a bloated corpse."

"That with all their fantastic science,
and libraries full of great literature
they still think glurge like this is profound"

God's hand took mine
and we were silent for a while.

And then I asked,
"As a parent, what are some of life's lessons
you want your children to learn?"

"To learn that to make someone love you,
make them feel guilty for your sacrifices.
and if that doesn't work,
make their life hell."

"To learn to forgive by killing your own son,
but don't forget to blame the Jews."

"To learn that it only takes a few seconds
to kill those you love,
but three days to bring them back."

"To learn that a rich person
is not one who works hard,
but one who knows how to make a buck
off of cheap sentimentality like this."

"To learn that there are people
who say they love you dearly,
but really hope you burn in hell
because you have more sex than they do."

"To learn that two people can
look at the same thing
and see it differently,
but it takes religion
to make that into a long bloody war."

"To learn that it is not enough that they
forgive one another;
they must get a priest to do it."

"Thank you for your time," I said humbly.

"Is there anything else
you would like your children to know?"

God smiled and said,
"Just know that I am ,  only a dream."

http://www.jhuger.com/interview_with_god

This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:

John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."

Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's butt with us."

Me:   "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His butt?"

John: "If you kiss Hank's butt, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the snot out of you."

Me:   "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"

John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His butt."

Me:   "That doesn't make any sense. Why, "

Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the butt?"

Me:   "Well maybe, if it's legit, but, "

John: "Then come kiss Hank's butt with us."

Me:   "Do you kiss Hank's butt often?"

Mary: "Oh yes, all the time, "

Me:   "And has He given you a million dollars?"

John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."

Me:   "So why don't you just leave town now?"

Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the snot out of you."

Me:   "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's butt, left town, and got the million dollars?"

John: "My mother kissed Hank's butt for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."

Me:   "Haven't you talked to her since then?"

John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."

Me:   "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"

Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."

Me:   "What's that got to do with Hank?"

John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"

Me:   "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."

John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's butt He'll kick the snot out of you."

Me:   "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him, "

Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."

Me:   "Then how do you kiss His butt?"

John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His butt. Other times we kiss Karl's butt, and he passes it on."

Me:   "Who's Karl?"

Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's butt. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."

Me:   "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His butt, and that Hank would reward you?"

John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
From the Desk of Karl

   1. Kiss Hank's butt and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
   2. Use alcohol in moderation.
   3. Kick the snot out of people who aren't like you.
   4. Eat right.
   5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
   6. The moon is made of green cheese.
   7. Everything Hank says is right.
   8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
   9. Don't use alcohol.
  10. Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
  11. Kiss Hank's butt or He'll kick the snot out of you.

Me:   "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."

Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."

Me:   "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."

John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."

Me:   "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"

Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."

Me:   "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the snot out of people just because they're different?"

Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."

Me:   "How do you figure that?"

Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"

Me:   "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."

John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."

Me:   "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."

John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."

Me:   "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock, "

Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."

Me:   "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted*. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."

John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"

Me:   "We do?"

Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."

Me:   "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"

John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."

Me:   "But, oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"

Mary: She blushes.

John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."

Me:   "What if I don't have a bun?"

John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."

Me:   "No relish? No Mustard?"

Mary: She looks positively stricken.

John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"

Me:   "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"

Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."

John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that, "

Me:   "It's good! I eat it all the time."

Mary: She faints.

John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the snot out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's butt for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."

With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.

http://www.jhuger.com/kisshankbutt.php
http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php

More than almost anything else, Fred wanted to ski. But Fred was afraid.

Fred was afraid that he might get hurt, or even killed. Fred was afraid that he wouldn't be very good. But most of all, Fred was afraid that people would laugh at his tiny little skis.

Fred would tell others, and himself, that he didn't want to ski. Fred would tell others, and himself, that skiing was cold, wet and nasty. But still Fred, and everyone else, knew that he really wanted to ski.

All alone in his cold, darkened room at the lodge, Fred would read the Good Book. When the skiers returned from the slopes, Fred would regale them with stories from the Bible.

Most of the skiers would roll their eyes and walk away. But some stayed and listened. It made Fred feel good to have people pay attention to him. It made him feel even better to be the one in the conversation who knew the most about the topic, so he continued his Bible studies.

One day Fred came across the following passage:

And he [Satan] brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

--Luke 4:9-12, KJV

Something snapped in Fred's already fragile mind that day. Skiing, he told himself, was nothing but a fancy way of leaping off of a pinnacle. The desire he felt to ski, he told himself, came from the devil. His avoidance of skiing, he told himself, was a virtue. When he refused to ski, he told himself, he was doing God's work.

Fred told himself these things again and again. When he finally convinced himself, he started telling others. Fred told them that skiing was cold, wet, nasty and dangerous. Fred told them that the desire to ski came from the devil. Fred told them that skiing was evil, and therefore skiers were evil.

But many people had been skiing, and knew that with proper precautions it was fun and safe. The non-skiers all had friends who were skiers, and knew they were no different from anyone else. So the skiers and their non-skiers friends just laughed at Fred.

Fred screamed and yelled and told the people that they had been deceived by the devil. Most just laughed. An unbalanced few joined him. In time, Fred and his followers moved away from the mountains to settle among the plainsmen.

Fred told the plainsmen that skiing was cold, wet, nasty and dangerous. Fred told them that the desire to ski came from the devil. Fred told them that skiing was against the laws of God, and therefore skiers were evil. Most of the plainsmen had never been skiing. Few had even met a skier. Knowing no better, many people accepted Fred's fantasy as reality. After all, he seemed so sincere.

Conservatives wanted to pass laws barring skiers from public office, or from jobs in teaching. Moderates said things like "Hate the skis, but love the skier!" Even liberals started saying things like "If people want to do cold, wet, nasty and dangerous things in the privacy of the mountains, that's none of our business." They never realized that skiing was a perfectly normal activity, and relatively safe if you take the proper precautions.

Every time a skier broke the law, or behaved poorly, Fred proclaimed it evidence of the moral weakness of skiers. When young men and women learned to ski while away at college, Fred proclaimed it evidence that the schools were under the control of an Atheist-Skier conspiracy. When the courts threw out anti-skier laws as unconstitutional, Fred claimed the judges to be the willing tools of Satan.

Every time a skier would get hurt or catch a cold Fred would claim it to be a punishment from God for their sins. When an avalanche struck, Fred proclaimed it to be God's judgment against skiers, heedless that many of the dead and injured were not skiers.

Fred, in his insanity, turned away from those who needed help. He encouraged his followers to turn away too. Worse, his insanity had spread to the point where liberal commentators were saying things like "But what about the babies, surely they never skied!"

A few could see where this madness would lead, but no one would listen. The day they feared came: A couple of Fred's followers decided God needed a little help. The followers found a young skier named Matt. The lured him to a desolate ski-slope, and they tortured him to death.

People were shocked and they were horrified. They held their breath. Surely, they thought, Fred would have to see that his hatred was wrong.

Fred arrived at Matt's funeral with a few of his followers. They carried signs with slogans like "God hates skiers" and "Matt burns in Hell."

Horror upon horrors! Fred was clearly insane. Surely the mainstream churches would speak against his insanity.

But few ever did.

So the clouds opened up, a bright light shone forth, and God spoke:

"Fred, you're a twisted bigoted idiot. There's nothing wrong with skiing. If I didn't want people to ski, I could easily have made it impossible."

"You Popes and Bishops and Ministers should be ashamed of yourselves for not speaking out against this man's delusion. You have been charged with spreading my word but have failed to spread the most basic element: Love!"

"You who call yourselves my children: What part of 'Love your neighbor as you would love yourself' did you not understand?"

"And you skiers, wipe that smug smile of your face. I've heard what you've been saying about snow boarders. Do the words 'do unto others' ring a bell?"

"Each and every one of you, listen up. I've said it before, I'll say it again: Go forth, and be excellent to one another. Get that right, and the rest will follow."

The last echoes of God's voice faded. The clouds came together. The great light of God faded.

Fred and his followers realized the great evil they had done. The mainstream churches realized that complacency was complicity. The skiers realized they too were not without faults. The snow boarders got some pants that fit.

Everybody forgave everybody else, and from that moment on everyone was excellent to one another.


http://www.jhuger.com/fredski

While walking through the park, I found a watch. Watches (in my experience) do not simply spring into existence alongside the path. Someone of fairly high intelligence must have made the watch, then left it there. Wondering why someone might do such a thing, I decided to find the Watchmaker.

Luck was with me. On the way home I saw an advertisement for similar watches available free (with the purchase of a meal) at a popular fast-food chain. I went to the nearest franchise and asked to see the Watchmaker. The counter-person was not helpful. "Dude, there's no Watchmaker here, we just pull 'em out of a box."

I expressed my conviction that the watch could not simply happen. There must be a Watchmaker. The manager (who took an interest when I began to raise my voice) was able to shed some light on the matter. "Sir, we receive these watches from corporate headquarters in Vermont. If you want to find the Watchmaker, you will have to contact them."

A very nice person at corporate headquarters was able to refer me to her contact at an import company, who referred me to his contact at a Far-Eastern manufacturing firm. Once I convinced him that I was not investigating his company's employment practices, he was kind enough to provide me with a description of their manufacturing process.

The watches were assembled by unskilled workers paid the equivalent of about two dollars a day. (For some reason my contact thought it was important to point out that this is nearly one-and-a-half times the local minimum wage.) The watch band, case, and face were injection molded in an automated process. The electronic portion of the watch was purchased in bulk from another company.

Contacting that company, I found that the electronic portions were produced on an assembly-line using a combination of industrial robots and semi-skilled labor.

Etched Silicon WaferThe microchips were cut from blanks grown from vats of molten silicon and traces of other elements. The machinery that did this is impressive, but it did not build the blanks so much as control the environment so that the silicon could assemble itself.

The control circuitry is photo etched on to the silicon chips. The photo etchers are fairly complex, as machines go, but hardly intelligent. The operators of these machines are better trained than the laborers who assemble the finished product. However, their knowledge is limited to running the machines. They had nothing to do with the design of the watch.

The doohickey that counts off the seconds is a small bit of quartz. Quartz is a naturally occurring crystal that vibrates at a constant rate when an electric current passes through it.

I'm sure all the folks involved in the manufacture of the watch were quite competent. Many of the folks I talked to seemed quite intelligent; but none of the people directly involved in the watch's manufacture would have been able to make a watch themselves from scratch. No one I had talked to so far was truly the Watchmaker.

The engineer who actually produced the design was knowledgeable and helpful. Unfortunately, his enthusiastic description of the process of circuit design was largely beyond me. I was able to glean two important facts: First, he used a computer aided design system. Second, his design was an enhancement of a previous design by another engineer, who based her design on an even earlier design, and so on; back through several decades.

The engineer was also able to provide me with a very interesting pamphlet entitled A brief history of time-keeping. This pamphlet traced the development of quartz clocks and watches back to a team of designers in the sixties. It went on to trace time-pieces in general back to the water-clocks of the ancient Greeks. It even contained a little speculation about the prehistoric people who built Stonehenge.

The watch was the product of intelligent design and construction, but there was no single Watchmaker. The watch embodies the combined intelligence of countless entities over the course of millennia, from the geniuses who invented the semi-conductor, to the minuscule "intellect" of the silicon and quartz crystals, back to the Babylonian scribe who invented astronomy, and even the purely mechanical motions of the heavenly bodies that inspired him.

Seeking respite from thoughts of watches and Watchmakers, I returned to the park. As I walked along, I found a flower. Flowers (in my experience) do simply spring into existence. The flower grew from a seed, which grew on a flower, which grew from a seed, and so on. The flower is its own manufacturer. This makes the initial design of the flower all the more impressive.

Before researching the Watchmaker, I might have supposed the flower had a single, super-human designer. With the Watchmakers firmly in mind, I contacted the nursery that produced the flower.

A staff member described the process. The flowers indeed grew from seeds. When I asked about the design of the flower, I was surprised to hear that they were a patented variety developed by a midwestern firm specializing in such things.

A botanist developed this variety from existing varieties by selective breeding. The botanist knew what he wanted, but had no way of making the design changes directly. There was also no way to communicate his desires directly to the plant. For that matter, there was no way for the plant to make the changes had there been a method of communication. There were small changes in each generation of plant, but these mutations were random.

Together the botanist and the plants were able to make deliberate, intelligent changes through a process similar to a game of twenty questions. The variations in each new generation were the previous generation's way of asking "How should I change?" The botanist supplied the answer by growing the next generation using seeds from the plants representing the closest guess.

In times past, gardeners made it a practice to save seeds from the best flowers to use in planting next year's garden. In hindsight, I saw that this was a kind of selective breeding.

Again the development was a cooperative effort between humans, and the existing varieties of flower. The gardeners had only a general idea of what they wanted, namely better flowers. The variety still asked the question "How should I change?" Humans still supplied the answer by growing the next generation using seeds from the plants representing the best guess.

There was a blight at the turn of the century that nearly caused this species of flower to become extinct in North America. For several years the American population of this flower declined, then it leveled out, then it started a slow climb. Eventually the flower returned to its previous numbers. Seeds imported from Europe continued to do poorly against the blight. Americans had to rely on their new, blight-resistant varieties.

There was no intelligent botanist or gardener, but the development of blight resistance was, in a sense, still an intelligent design choice. The variety still asked the question "How should I change?" The blight supplied the answer by destroying a greater proportion of the plants representing the wrong answer, leaving a greater proportion of plants representing the correct answer to provide the seeds that would grow into the next generation.

Blight was not the only non-human quiz master. Insects, other plants, higher animals, cooperative microbes, and many, many others all contributed their limited intelligence to the plants' design. Even the Sun, rain, and soil (literally dirt-dumb) made a contribution.

Even discounting the human intellect of the botanists and gardeners, the flower is the product of intelligent design and construction of a sort. There was no single Designer. The flower embodies the combined intelligence of countless entities, over the course of billions of years; from the tiny intelligence of the bee, to the minuscule "intellect" of various microbes; and even the nearly mechanical actions of wind and rain.

Returning to the park I contemplated this process of evolution. I marveled at the diversity and complexity of the life it creates. I considered the process of evolution itself. I meditated on its elegant simplicity, and sublime design.

Old habits die hard. Soon I found myself wondering if there wasn't some subtle intelligence behind the design of evolution. Suspecting the answer almost at once, I was able to complete my research quickly.

intimate reproduction, one of the key elements in the whole process, was itself a mechanism that evolved from a simpler process of asexual reproduction. If the process of evolution itself can evolve, it requires no great leap of imagination to trace the process back through the ages to processes so basic that they are none other than the laws of physics.

The process goes the other way, too. The learning ability of higher animals is essentially an improved form of evolution; able to make improvements in less than a single generation. Our own natural intellects are yet a further enhancement. Beyond even that, we develop better ways of learning, and of sharing our knowledge, nearly every day.

I am able to make it back to the park before nightfall. I watch the Sun set, then I watch the stars come out. I am a direct descendant of the laws of physics, the product of intelligent design and construction, but with no single Creator. I embody the combined intelligence of countless entities since the beginning of time, from the first primates who used stone tools, back to the first creatures to experiment with sex, forward to my college instructors, and back again to the laws of physics themselves.

The stars are out in all their glory. As I stargaze, I think how lucky I am that the universe is a place where the laws of physics allow life and intelligence to evolve. I wonder, for just a moment, if those laws just happened, or if they were the product of intelligent design. I laugh, and go back to stargazing. I do catch-on eventually; given enough time.



http://www.jhuger.com/watchmaker

Joagbaje:
Mark 16:17
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Why are christians ever ready to use this sham as proof but when asked for another biblical sign like drinking poison or holding snakes and scorpions they duck and dodge. My dear Joagbaje, you stopped one verse short.

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I can speak in tongues at will too. It takes very little effort however, I cant drink poisons neither will I play with snakes. Can you ?

deols:
I wont be surprised if many of those pastors are atheists in real life. They see a business venture and go into it. No fear of God at all. All they need is to try look good, speak a little good english (wv some ajasa), learn a little psychology , get some marriage counselling lessons(or get their wives to do that) and practice on speaking in some terms no one might understand as scam and they'r in money





0

I could hug you right now. The whole paragraph but especially the bolded.

Good read.

Martian:
Holy S@#$!!!
You need to make a movie about your life. It will be EPIC!!!!  15 car crashes, 4 attempted murders, oceans spitting you out!!!! 

Damn epic ish.
Someone please write a prescription (though I fear its too late now).

Ishilove:
O I'm sure he does Jay

Just noticed you are online. We should practice our song.

MichaelCE:
I am on pathway to heaven and not hell. The bible rightly says that he who does not believe there is a God, is a fool. You don't want to accept the truth, that is your problem but I also think your minds are idle. (An idle mind is the devil's workshop) So you go on right ahead and keep jiving about in life and think to yourself that is the best way of spending your time but make sure you don't recount these words: 'Had I known?' when it is time to meet your maker. Or maybe screams as you are falling way deep into hell when your life is over. This truth I just shared with you, I did not need a certificate for it, it was an enlightenment in my mind and use of common sense.

Have a glorious day!

Well you are going to hell also. The hell of Islam and the other religions you dont believe in.
I have been to heaven and hell. They are both here on earth and only experienced whilst living. Your bible says the dead know nothing.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Psalm 104:29
Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

1 Timothy 6:14-16
That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Psalm 146: 1-4

Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.

While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.

Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Keep quaking in your boots my dear fellow and pride yourself in your holiness. Call me a heathen and condemn me if you will. Its no skin off my nose (sticks and stones).

I have quoted some scriptures and there are many more. Feel free to tell me they were all taken out of context.

Image123:
Eiya, love in india. Call us when the song begins.

Yes oh. I hope you have dancing shoes.

musKeeto:
Simply put, you are what you think

Like I said, you are what you think.

If you think you are cursed, no amount of external prayers will solve your internal problems.

Nicely put.

Martian:
Disregard all the religious kooks and just do what I said to expedite the breaking of the curse.

May The Supreme Flying Dragon smite you where you stand. I'm trying to help him break the curse and I'm sure that my solution is better than yours.

Leave my Ishilove alone oh !!!

MichaelCE:
All you who mock God and refuse to accept the truth, there is a word the bible describes you as and that is 'FOOL'. But what I would like to add from my own point of view is that you are irresponsible and behave like a 'WANTON GOAT'. What is also alarming is how silly you guys are but profess to be wise because you are imbibed with things of the world. You go about joking on things you know not about simply because you think you are enjoying life and will not be accountable to anyone. God is real and the reason why you are even alive is because He loved you into existence. All your pre-emptive naive conjugations are evidence that there is a void in you and for your information only God can fill that void.

So since you evolved from animals, into an intellectual being, what will happen to that spark when you finally come to the end of life? Or do you now consider that you, as an intellectual being are not that important and will fade away into non-existence? Yea right! You will have to face judgement and give account for every silly and idle word you have spoken. If you knew Jesus, you would know that there is hope but if you don't and your life comes to the end of the rope, its to 'HELL' straight. There would no need to bother about judgement not to mention even seeing God's face. Just remember, the devil was cast down from heaven and he has seen God and been with God, you on the other hand would not even get the chance to see the very Holy One who gave you that spark, those eyes you have to see, the mouth you use to talk rubbish as well as stuff yourselves with food and drink.

If you want to give your life to Christ say this prayer: Dear Lord, I am a sinner. I have come to know the folly of my ways. I ask you to come into my heart, I repent of my sins, I make you my Lord and Personal saviour. (Then if you want to know more about Christ, I implore you to start with the book of John. It will reveal the truth to you)

You are now in danger of hell according to Mathew 5:22.

What is a wanton goat ?

I appreciate the fact that you probably had no choice regarding your education until relatively late in life. Now that you are older and know that intelligence and learning are incompatible with your religion, we would take you more seriously if you burnt all your certificates and joined boko haram (or its christian equivalent).

That is all.

Thank you.

Ishilove:
Lol. Yeye. We've succeeded quite nicely in derailing the thread,have'nt we Jay? This is the first time i'm an active participant in thread hijack and derailment on nairaland,this is the first time words are failing you,so that makes us even

:-)

[center]Disputing God With Logic[/center]

The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received not from its own carrier but from those around it. It absorbs all unconscious mental frequencies from this brainwave energy to nourish itself with. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them. The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by your Babel fish.
    Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.
    The argument goes like this:
    `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
    `But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
    `Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.
   

from
The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
written by Douglas Adams

Ishilove:
Lol. Out with it Jay,coyness is reserved for women :-D

I know, I know but *gulps* , err, umm, how do I put this.
*Looking* downwards. *Trying to remember the lines I practiced*.
You see, *clears throat*. *Opens mouth but words fail me*

OMG why are you torturing me ?
Until now, I've never had any problem expressing myself.
Damn !

OP it says in the bible that God knows even before you ask. Why then bother. Again the point was raised about the win win situation. There are a lot of escape outlets for God such as lack of faith, or the prayer not being the will of God. In such a case wont it be better to just let things be according to his will ?

When does a prayer expire ? I make this observation. I believe most folks pray at night before they sleep and early the next morning. Now does the prayer cover one from night till morning and also from morning till niight ? I ask because it seems to be a habit of some folks (if they are telling me the truth). Inspite of prayers, some folks still die in their sleep or the next morning sometime after prayer. Does this mean the prayer expired somewhere along the line. A practical person like me would advocate only one prayer to cover a lifetime, afterall as the bible says, he knows s all before we ask it, so why bother, especially when over half the things will clash with his will.

Just some unorganised thoughts.

Ishilove:
And which "appropriate" section would that be mon ami blushé?

*blushing furiously*
*stuttering*

Godmouth:
@ Jayriginal,

There is really no point arguing with you!

We've agreed on that.

Godmouth:
@ Jayriginal,

You quote scripture out of context saying because I refer to the bible reference that calls atheists fools that I'm in danger of going to hell.

Its in the bible. You cant take liberties in determining what is in context and attempt to deny me the same liberty. I could as well say everything you say from the bible is taken out of context.

Godmouth:
God is so tangible and more real than this physical world you see around you. You are free to ask me about my encounters and I would be willing to answer them. Some examples of the things God has revealed to me in the past about future occurences which have happened are as follows:

1. David Cameron would be the next Prime Minister of Britian, before  the UK elections

2. Spain would win the Fifa World Cup in 2010 overcoming strong oppositions such as Germany, and Holland who beat Brazil in the Quater Finals: considered to be one of the favourites .

3. Yohan Blake would win the 100metres Gold medal in the the World Athletics Championship in Daegu, South Korea rather than Usain Bolts

4. This is one for the future: if you are Nigerian, or you know about Nigerian current affairs, you must have heard of the terrorist group; Boko Haram. God has told me that their days as an organisation are numbered. They shall cease to exist very soon, as God would fish out those who are behind the evil group and expose them. His judgement would fall upon the group and disband them.

5. God also told me a day before about the bomb blast that would happen at the UN building in Abuja. He gave me a vision of how the event unfolded a night before the day it happened

Ok your God seems quite interested in sports and UK politics. Assuming (without conceding) that you were told these things, Evil Brain has suggested that you get help. Still in line with the assumption that you did hear from God (that is, I'm assuming you believe you heard rather than actually hearing from God), what steps did you take  to warn the populace about it. Did you send a message to them ? Did you relay the contents of your revelation to any security agency ?
Why is your God so interested in sports and not stuff that affects us daily here in Nigeria ? Wouldnt it be nice if he could reveal to you something that could help lives in Nigeria (I guess there's no use for that when he warned you about the bomb blast and , )

I couldnt help noticing that while all the other revelations were exceedingly clear ie 1, 2, 3, and 5, the only one that deals with the future is sufficiently vague so as to come under different interpretations in case anything remotely close does happen. Is this a way to later come back to this thread in the future and point at it as a sign that god speaks to you ?
Why wont your god give us specific info. Ask him for us. Tell him to tell you the names of the boko haram leaders, where their camps are, their members, their sponsors, the quickest and most effective way of stopping them. While he is at it, he may draw up a sound economic policy that will transform the lives of Nigerians. Let him also tell us who killed Bola Ige, MKO and many others. Im sure he knows these things.

In like manner, to prove that your prophecies have no hint of divinity, I'm going to make some of mine.
1) The sun will come out tomorrow.
2) There will be power outage in some parts of Nigeria
3) Some of our old leaders will soon die
4) The Niger river will not evaporate tomorrow

Notice how all my prophecies are future and not past events like most of yours are ? Not to be outdone, I'll give you a past event that was 100% accurate.

5) I knew before the election that Fashola would win his reelection.

As for Spain winning the world cup, a certain octopus (Paul I think), predicted the same too. If an octopus can do the same thing your God did ,

Ishilove:
So what did you have in mind? :-D

If I said it, they might have to remove this thread from the religion section and place it more appropriately.

Godmouth:
@ Jayriginal,

You are the one who is deluded by saying God does not exist.

I think not.

Godmouth:
@ Jayriginal,

In the bible: it is written that it's only a fool that says in his heart that there is no God. There is nothing you will say that will change the experiences/encounters of God that I have heard: even if you put a gun to my head and ask me to deny it.

It is also written that he who calls his brother a fool is in danger of hell. I guess we are both going to burn together.

Godmouth:
Who created you? where did you come from? when you die where are you going? why is the earth the only place where life is found in the entire universe as tiny as it is?

It all started some years ago with my father and mother.

When I die, I cease to exist. Thats it.

You cant say for certain that earth is the only place life is found. Have you gone round ? Carbon based life forms may not be the only type of life existing. Isnt it possible that there might be some kind of life form that we dont as yet know ? Afterall, early man was not aware of microbes but that didnt stop them from existing.

Godmouth:
There is no point arguing with you because you do not understand what I am saying. You cannot understand unless God helps you to do so.

You are the one who needs help: because life without Christ is empty and pointless. You know deep down that you need God, so stop pretending and answer his call before it is too late!

Your arguments are too simple. You insult the creator you believe in by advancing such folly. My spare tire can comprehend your God theory even in its "in-animacy". Here goes your logic.

[center]I believe in God cos it says so in the bible. It says he is the alpha and omega. The everything. He created everything in the universe, he is perfect and all that. There is nothing God cannot do. The bible is the word of God. I know this is true because its written in the bible.[/center]

Thats your simplistic argument, which I understand and even my old slippers understands that. I understand and thoroughly reject that argument. You people are not helping your cause at all.
You are right. With your poor grasp of logic and your ignorance of your own scriptures, you are better off not arguing. Infact, you arent even arguing. You seem like you are trying to convince yourself.
As has been said severally, just because you cant explain something, it doesnt mean it is supernatural. It simply means you dont understand it.
For some reason, dont you wonder why your "God" gave you a brain ?

@OP your jumble of questions make it unlikely that you will receive an answer. You dont seem to have carefully thought out your post.
Anyway, here is a start. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-758083.0.html (FAQ for atheists)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-757847.0.html (on the nature of proof)
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-758572.0.html (on evolution and the improbability of god). Some of your questions are assumptions. It would serve you better if you actually knew what you were debating. Read these links and come back here and engage anybody. The discussion is bound to be more coherent in the long run.

Ishilove:
Hmmm. . .
Ok here goes. *raise foot,insert foot in mouth, and chew slowly*
So there,my blushing friend,does that suffice?

Not quite what I had in mind.

Ishilove:
Guy go and do your research well and stop ranting about things you have only the vaguest ideas of. MARY,not Joseph was from the House of David. Joseph was the outsider and surrogate father of Jesus

Ive done my research thank you. Seems you haven't done yours. Can you trace Mary's genealogy? If you can let us know here and if you cant you have no right to accuse me of "ranting". I'm going to try not to descend to the level of hurling barbs as is common in this forum.

The Isrealites were/are a patrilineal nation as we are in Nigeria. We have Mathew 1: 1-17 and Luke 3: 23-38 with two different genealogies both traced to a man (Joseph) who isnt supposd to be the father of Jesus. Sure he could be his surrogate father, but that fact alone disqualifies Jesus from being the "seed" or of the "line" of David to which the bible says  Joseph belongs.

Instead of invectives, please pick up your bible and point me in the direction of Mary's genealogy which clearly shows that she is from the house of David. Either that or an apology. Im waiting.



Back at OP. You see how details matter? People have been killed over details. Details such as the trinity, whether Jesus is God or is lesser,etc have caused much bloodshed. Details are the reason you have so many different denominations today. Details dear OP are very important.

You can see the point I was making earlier about a bible divinely inspired, containing absurdities and needing to be patched with further absurdities.

Godmouth:
@Mazaje:

I can tell you for a fact that there is a God. You may ask me: how do I know? I have had several encounters of Him, I have encountered several angels. God speaks to me just as a man speaks to his friend.

I assume you are merely talking. If you really believe God talks to you like a friend and that you have met angels, you are cherishing an illusion. More to the point, you are deluded and might need help. No offence meant.

Godmouth:
When you are faced with a helpless situation: e.g your life or that of a loved one is threatened by a terminal illness that has no cure: then you will see that a hope inside of you begins to pray that God should be real and that he should be able to heal you or whoever is involved in the predicament.

God was created out of fear and ignorance.
This might seem harsh to you, but without intending any offence, there is no other way I can put it.

mazaje:
Having no explanation for an event means nothing more than we don't know. That's it: we don't know yet. It is ignorant to conclude that god did it.

Precisely the reason he is called the God of gaps. Its easier to say God did it, or the devil, or my village people or whatever, than to actually sit down and figure out the reason for anything. Many questions about our origins may never be completely answered but God is not the answer . That much is definite. Its hard to let go and most people wont, but God is finished. He has served his purpose. He isnt needed anymore but is unfortunately still alive in the superstition of sheeple.

NnamdiN:
bros u tight o, honestly I only read it from d OP'S point of view sha, Nevertheless I strongly believe in my God sha, I can't give d credit to some other person or force but d one I call "my" God has been very good to me. I have never really had any reason to doubt his existence

Its really easy to distort facts with posts like the first one. Those so called facts may not even be true (we are only assuming they are). However, when you balance out the equation, you see that there is nothing special about it. People die everyday and some die after they have just finished eating rice, some die after sex, some die after praying/praising God, some die after cursing God, some have died in church etc. As was even noted somewhere on another thread, many died in Reinhard Bonke's (sp) crusade/revival in Benin. People die all the time and their last actions are usually not relevant.

HISchild:
"The Lord reigns"! at least two examples of men, kings, who glorified themselves instead of GOD, suffered GOD's punishment - "But he that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." - 2 Corinthians 10:17

king Nebuchadnezzar of the babylonian empire,
"At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon. The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty? While the word was in the king's mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee. And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. The same hour was the thing fulfilled upon Nebuchadnezzar: and he was driven from men, and did eat grass as oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven, till his hairs were grown like eagles' feathers, and his nails like birds' claws." - Daniel 4:29-33

king Herod, tetrarch of Galilee -
"And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." - Acts 12:21-23

---------
“The Lord [is] gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, And of great mercy.” - Pss 145:8

Same goes for ^^^ too (assuming {without conceding} that those facts are true).

Ishilove:
Yep i did Jay. My belief in God stems from personal experience not religion. One foolish western scientist cannot tell me my convictions are hallucinations,or that i am a product of chance. U seem to be a cool headed person Jay. I suggest you ask God for directions because there are many mysteries in this world,and when it can't be unravelled,the ilk of Mr Dawkin begin to postulate improbables

At least you read it and that's commendable. Nobody is forcing it down your throat, its simply another point of view. We would all be happy if we live and let live. About being cool headed, thanks for the compliment *blushing*. Seeing a lot of the insults/abuse here on nairaland, I want to try as much as possible to eschew those things in my posts. I may not always succeed though.
As for asking God, I simply don't believe in that entity anymore, so what good would that do ?

HISchild:
"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain." - 1 Corinthians 3:18-20

"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:" -1 Corinthians 2:6

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe." - 1 Corinthians 1:19-21

“So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of GOD.” - Rom 10:17

"The Lord reigns"!

Thanks for your quotes about wisdom. It would have been more objective of you to quote certain other passages such as "The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going." Prov 14:15

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Acts 17:11
Also the verse about testing every spirit. I'm sure you might claim these quotes support your point, but I can claim the same as well. Thats the problem of the bible.

You might as well tear up your certificates which you spent a lot of your life acquiring since it is the "wisdom of this world" and as a consequence, foolishness with God. Incidentally that is a sentiment that is probably appreciated by a certain sect known as "Boko Haram".

Ishilove:
Foolishness on all fours. Most of these people don't realise the truth until its far too late

Did you read it ?

Ishilove:
Am i getting it all wrong? Please i will like Christians well grounded in the Word to share their views and opinion. Also the views of atheists,pagans and satanists are not welcome so please keep off. Thank you

Paradoxically, those whom you have excluded know more about it than you think. However, since you only want to reason with "Christians" so be it.

Hehehe

NnamdiN:
not a single soul replied dis thread

Thats because there is no need to reply such rubbish. Will the author of this piece (definitely not OP) or OP please also tell us how many Preachers who preached on a certain sunday or anytime of the week died soon after ?
How many Pastors or Bishops or whatever passes for a man/woman of God have died in an abominable way ?
Of faithfuls who prayed to God at night and died in their sleep ?
Of faithfuls who prayed to God in the morning and died on their way to work or school ?
The list goes on and on. Using random statistics to validate fear and B.S. is just wrong.
Heck, Jesus himself died an abominable death (as christians believe) like the worst of all criminals and he was accursed of God, yet he even prayed before his death.

Na wa for una oh.