repeat

....hmmm eye-opening !

The divorce laws need changing and men need to be sharp.

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wales:

A visually impaired man, and member of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) in Ogun State, Yinka Ibidunni, yesterday officially announced his intention to contest against Iyabo Obasanjo-Bello for the Ogun Central Senatorial District in the forthcoming 2011 polls.


Mr Ibidunmi, a known critic of the state Governor, Gbenga Daniel, before he was appointed as Special Adviser on Physically Challenged People, made this known in Abeokuta. Declaring his senatorial ambition at his campaign office, located in Kugba area of the town, Mr Ibidunni who is eyeing the seat for the third time, said his ambition is to create positive effect and influence in people's life. "I want to ensure that people enjoy the dividend of democracy, and doing this is for the electorates to vote the right persons into political offices, in the next dispensation, in which I am qualified," he said.

"I am not ready to give a kobo to any delegate before getting the party slot, nor will I part away with any money as condition for the electorate to vote for me," he said. "But what I will say is that, let us put the right person in right position." The aspirant assured the electorate that if voted in as senator, he would be transparent and spend his constituency allowances judiciously. "Let us put the right driver in the right driving seat," he said.

http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/News/National/5603401-147/physically_challenged_man_contests_for_iyabo.csp

No irony, no pun intended. I'd like to think it wasn't done maliciously, or even in jest, but its very poor editing at best.

Mr. T,

tonye-t:

I still stand on my point that the church is an institution, and an institution doesnt necessarily mean a building but a STRUTURE, structure i mean is on how members should be cordinated and assigned roles, yes every one can have a unique calling and hence used by God for specific purposes, but then i say, someone has got to feed them, tend them and this is usually from a FIGURE HEAD who is assumed as more spiritually matured, recall Jesus saying to Peter after his ressurrection to FEED THE SHEEP, TEND THE SHEEP and FEED THE LAMBS, meaning there must be a Herdman(who takes orders from the Shepherd)and as such can provide feed and shelter and tends for the sheep

- No sir, the church is not an institution. It's a gathering, a body a family
- When members of the body come together its "church". There should be order and a simple structure is outlined if required.
- "FIGURE HEAD"? Sir you keep expanding this lexicon you have built up around your institutional approach. Please go back to source.
- It's a fallacy to think that spiritual maturity or the development of faith comes from shadowing or being around "MOGs"
- That sir is "Religious Instruction". Spiritual maturity and deepening faith come from the direct relationship with Him.
- You can share walks and experiences, but the experience must be undegone and the path walked individually and personally.
- HERDMAN again? Sir this is no longer humourous
- A Herdman "taking orders" from a Shepherd?? That is nothing shy of a "mediatory priesthood". Done away with
- Its sounds good and oh so very spiritual but it's at best seriously misled.
- The door is open, the way clear. This type of doctrine prevents men entering in. You know what i mean.

with this i say that a FIGURATIVE HEAD is needed after the order of CHRIST (the HEAD), who takes up a similar role as the LEVITES of the OT were called to do, after the order of AARON (the ordained HIGH PRIEST)-

Briefly - utter nonsense. Apologies, but thats my take.

- Someone reading your comment may think i said, money is needed for a church to exist, pls i never and will never say so, but you saying the body of christ does not need money to run is a total error, what you should ask yourself is what is the money to be used for? and i think thats what you attested to on your post quoted above. recall Bible is One and if so, then what did Eccle.10:19 said of moneys?

I will state it clearly. You have not stated the church needs money to exist, but you have clearly said the church needs money to function. Right and wrong. the church does not need money to be the church. Money in the church is used to address real  physical/bodily needs, end of story. With or without money, the church will exist, function and flourish. take that to the bank! He will build His church. naira and kobo not required. Please make more of your quoting Eccl 10:19

- And again what i wish to say is that, because money and its management have been abused in the later church doesnt mean its introduction to the church running was wrong!, Act.4:32, and chpt.5. MONEY bible says is a DEFENSE, pls expantiate on this.

Again a dilenma unknown to me and when you create for yourself when you institutionalise church and rightly - but spiritually wrongly - talk of the necessary funding that institutions - but not the church - require. The bible also says money/riches will not save in the day of destruction.

Permit me to make an observation - The exaggeration of "church" (and "pastors" and "ministrty" in christian life, the overemphasis on the practicalities and minor aspects, the focus on the human dimension is one of the tragedies of contempary christianity and reduces the only true faith to a mere religion.

- But no one has said there is any seperate clergy, but rather seperate calling. and even if i say there is a seperate clergy i dont think am wring in any way, because PETER was the head of the eraly church (jews) as PAUL was the head of the early church (gentiles) and TIMOTHY the first bishop (which means senior xtian cleric). and again no one has said any thing like salaries i dont know where you coiled that from, but in essense a sort of welfare can be given to them, read Pauls admonishion to Timothy in 1tim, you'll understand that a church system should contain just about the same structure as the levitical order of the OT but this time it should be of Christ Jesus as the HIGH PRIEST

Please the practical outworking of the Clerigy as you have defined it is distinct, seperate and specially ordained. Calling and anointing is of God, ordination of men. it what always ruins faith men and their traditions and commandments.

Your takes on Peter and Paul are just off the wall. Peter and Paul were both Apostles, Charged by the Lord with 1. Promulgating the gospel and mapping the church blueprint for the early believers. Note they wer in the plural and none had seniority over any other. They were sent to different constituents and obviously looked up to and looked to for  initial instruction, but they were not heads of churches. To wit;

1. James was as highly respected - if not more so - than Peter in the church at Jerusalem.
2. Paul was an Apostle promulgating and mapping as outlined above. he never noted himself as head of anything.
3. Timorthy was a bishop/an elder/a shepherd. A bishop does not denote a clerical hierarchy, although some wouldlove it to be so. 
4. Paul exhorted Timothy to "raise elders/bishops/presbyters/shepherds in all the churches. Once in place churches are self running.
5. There is no pyramid structure of churches or of clergy. it's purely man-made
6. I have said there is welfare - of needs - for elders and even preferential, but it is till needs based.
7. I can only see error in your forcing OT types into NT Christianity. Enough said.

n to Timothy in 1tim, you'll understand that a church system should contain just about the same structure as the levitical order of the OT but this time it should be of Christ Jesus as the HIGH PRIEST.

MOGs and envy wasnt at you brother, pls read it again, at least you and I know that a lot of the attacks on our MOGs are simply born out of this reason. 

The notion of MOGGERY and any attendant concerns or questions are not pertinent to me. I don't subscribe to such. I am anything but envious. And I mean that more than you probably realise.

But they are or aint they? i dont know where you are coming from

Tithing is not mutual sharing. Neither are cajoled offering, nor manipulated sowing solicitations. "All things in common" it says in acts. Show me someone or somewhere that this is preached.

- Are some ordained and some not, answer i'll say is a very big YES some are ordained and others not, recall that there is a clear difference btw ordination and calling, Timothy was called into service with Christ and yet also HE WAS ORDAINED THE 1ST BISHOP by PAUL, steven and co were called into the service of christ with callings and yet also STEVEN AND CO WERE ORDAINED DEACONS and so on.

Show me an example of ordination different or seperate to calling in the NT. Is a church cleaner or usher ordained? No it's merely a functional role.

-What is the spiritual implication of this ordination? the answer is simple, for cordination, SHEPHERDS are chosen to tend SHEEP. and also to nuture these SHEEP. ok!

No. It's purely functional and any believer that desires and is sutable can carry out that function.

- There difference i'll say is to help the continuity of the course of Christ, if youngs ones dont learn from matured one's, how would they know what followership in Christ is all about, even Paul followed b4 being followed.

Its a lie - Fellowship with Christ is learned by fellowshipping with Christ. That is the essence and core of Christian fellowship, with the Father and the Son. Fellowshhip with man can only be a sharing of experience not the actual experience. By emphasising fellowship with man and usually to a degree that the true fellowship is ignored, you breed disciples of men and religiosity.

Look around you! You see "church members" talking, making hair and dressing like their "MOG". they are like him, not HIM. Listen carefully

"The MOG named__________(insert MOG name of your choice here) can never make anyone like Christ or Christlike. It's religious instruction and cannever be more than that.

Lemme drop it sir. You earlier quoted the early part of Ephesians 4. Allow me to post a few verses later;

Ephesians 4: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.

All you clergy/officies/functions are to lead/point to one thing. To wit fullness in and of Christ. Christlikeness. hear me, MOGS cannot, because;
1. They have not themselves attained to this
2. It can only be obtained in Christ and through Christ

Are believers supposed to be fed and nurtured forever?

1. When do they attain to the above?
2. How do they?
3. What happens when they do?
4. Is it happening now?
5. Where?
6. Under which MOG?
7.In which Institutionalised church?

They are selling you dross for gold, religion for faith men for Christ. Building a religious circus. based on the co-dependency of clergy and laity, leaders and followers sheep and shepherds, that leads nowhere, attains to nothing - in christ anyway - and is not even worthy of eathly, let alone heavenly/eternal honour, consideration and profit.

- does it limit God's ability or restrict God to work in someone? answer is no, rather it builds the body. do you know that christ is not the body (church)? but the head of the church

- does it impair our relationship with God? my answer is N O , NO, relationship with God is a different Topic all together, we can discuss better on that on a new thread

You words here ring true, but the practical implications of your institution, admin, salaries, funding and the like are all real and their outworking is all too evident.

where in the bible is your name and surname mentioned,but yet dont you look in there and find everything about yourself? na wa o    i thought i gave you the definition of the word "CLERGY" pls brother read the definition better.pls this aint a question beloved brother.

I don't quite get the point you are making here.

- partially true partially not true, Paul noted that he worked because he wanted to, else said he ,that he would have survived from their willful contributions. read 1corinthinas again.

So no tithe, taxes or levies then? Right

- Brother, my too i even marvel at where the later got that idea of full-time and part-time ministry, i dont know, well what can one say, the name itself even pops a laughter to me here. i agree with you on that!

Hmmmm!

Now you are talking Sir! thats true bro, very true!

Hmmmmm. In that case i'd better repeat myself.

The church and it's structure/administration, is a part of christian life, an aspect of the experience, but not as some would presume the fullness of it. It's only meant to articulate how believers come together - when they do. Many mistakenly feel that all aspects of the Christian experience are articulated, regulated and lived out through "church", it's "pastors" and "ministry" and "functions". It's grievous error and the cause for much of the dysfunction amongst "christians" and "christianity" today. And I use quotes advisedly. Because embodying the notion of "church" to be an entity and end in its own right, and believing that faith is articulated, lived, regulated and experienced through "church. and further labouring under the notion that "Christlikeness" is to be attained through or by being in church is infact idolatory.

I beg to take my leave unless other pertinent points are made or concerns raised. Apologies for the lengthinessof my post. Peace.

He is the Way , tthe truth and the Life. No one comes untothe father except by Him.


J the lesser.

Mr. T,

tonye-t:

We arent here to get a winner but to learn isnt it?good, not quoting me on tithing i assume you now know that tenthing means tithing, so because abraham tithed, it means it never began with the law, so it should not die with the law.

Absolutely. We are merely sharing opinions. Discussing. My intent is not to force my position on you in any way. So winning or losing does not come into it.

Now to yours;

Am glad you know that, now You can never remove the church from being an institute because a church simply requires people to run it, recall i have never said that the church is a building but an institute, now if funds and levies are not asked, how on earth do you want this people(institution) to run the administration and even pay bills?

Noting but not copying - or disputing - your definition of institution, I'll advance straight to your articulation of same.

Here is the thinkng - logical as it may sound - that has seen the "church" become the "Institutionalised church" two totally seperate, distinct and unrelated creations. The one born of God in Christ, and the other man-made.

The body of Christ does not need money to "run", or to "exist". Money is only for one thing to care for members of the body. Running and administration speaks of salaries, programs, expenses etc. Thats "IC" not "OC" - original church. Note your emphasis on things - admin and bills - as opposed to people.

Where should they raise moneys for outreaches especially for those one's who would want to do it right, and buy some of the hi-tech equipments you and I dance songs and worship from, and even these clergies where do you expect them to meet up with some family responsibilties lts be sincere and unbiased in this one (if it were you and i), the problem is that most xtians start becoming envious and greedy when you see this MOGs living clean

I touched on this above. But lets refer to the bible. Where in scripture did money ever have to move to make converts? Yet the Lord (not man and his institutions or intellectual smarts) added to the church daily.

There is no seperate and distinct clergy and hence no need for salaries. Eldership is voluntary and plural to share the burden. Elders recieve assistance in the same way as any other - Share and share alike and none will have any need. Elders are supposed to have a professional life like all others, as is prescribed scripturally. Envy? MOGS??

- If they were on rags and old dresses, it is the same xtians and critics that will abuse them of looking too wretched, take deeper life ministries for example. no ill feelings pls (apologies!)

Yes the church is a body of Christ, but then the word “body” is broader than want you might be thinking

Again, this is a logical outworking of your emphasis on institutionalising the church and distinguishing a clergy. Does not exist for me as I do neither. All Christians should be cared for by the mutually shared resources of all.

Yes the church is a body of Christ, but then the word “body” is broader than want you might be thinking

I dasagree, my point is that it does not fit the template you are forcing it into.

In the body of Christ, are some ordained and some not? What is the spiritual implication of this ordination? What is the difference between the ordained and non-ordained? Does it limit or restrict Gods ability to work in someone? Does it in any way impact one's relationship or walk with God?

my friend i am pleased to let you know that all the above listed are all clergies in the body of christ, at least even the bible classified them as chosen for responsibilities,

- Now for those who seem to totally dedicate themselves to this service where do you expect them to survive from i ask you?

Where in the scripture is the word clergy/clergies? These roles are functional. They speak of respnsibility and gifting, not corporate roles. I asked previously, what is the end result of these functions meant to effect in the church or individual christians?

They work to survive like everyone else. With the possible exception of missionary work, there is no requirement for full-time ministry. It's a calling, not a vocation or career. That's what the "institutional template gets you.

God does not head the church, Christ does, and so he does the chosing, and at least the scriptures tells you and I that he gave His Holy spirit to give us unique responsibilities, so that one could be the hand, another the leg while yet another the neck and so on (refer to 1cor.12:14-25), and let me explain to you that the man-made structure of appointing DEACONS by the early apostles did not force the spirit out, rather it increased the domains of the spirit, STEVENS LIFE AND DEATH WILL EXPLAIN THAT.

Does this make it an institution or a corporation? Does this mean money is to be raised/levied to fund it? There was a need for deacons so the apostles could focus on the essentials. If deacons are required appoint them. Indeed appoint them if there are not required - just in case!

But a functioning congregation only requires elders and deacons at most. A simple structure. Your idea runs way beyond this, is unecessary and forces way to many constructs on to body life.

Stephens life and death had nothing to do with, neither was it predicated on his being appointed a deacon. Was Stephen martyed while managing welfare distributions or because he was a deacon? Ah, ah!

i asked the question so that you will know that the church has it as a responsibility to appoint a new office in the institution of the church so as to foster the work of Christ, remember Christ said occupy till i come, what will you say about that, hope you aint going to give me shallow answers like evangelism and individual living

Again I see error in thinking of this type. Where does the work of Christ require "offices" in order to be fostered? So occupy till I come means build loarge institutions or corporations? I get it! Hence the Jets, auditoria and and all the other religious/institutional paraphenalia that obtains today.

Perhaps if I am opportuned, I will post more on how assuming that the structural/administrative aspect of body life is of the utmost import and pretty much the sum of the Christian experience is both an error and by design, and will serve to compromise the body.

The church and it's structure/administration, is a part of christian life, an aspect of the experience, but not as some would presume the fullness of it. It's only meant to articulate how believers come together - when they do. Many mistakenly feel that all aspects of the Christian experience are articulated, regulated and lived out through "church". Hence much of what obtains today.

Later.
J

Mr. T,

tonye-t:

Bro, do you know that the bible referred to the church as the "pillar of truth"(1tim.3:15) with every part as a member of the body which is christ (1cor.)? meaning it is an institution, and as such required administrative setup, now ask yourself , what constitutes an institution

At first we merely differed in opinion, now we are parting ways to a degree. Your trajectory of Pillar hence body, hence institution is not how I see things, or I see as supported by scripture.

1. You rightly call the church a body and thern - IMHO - designate it an institution. No sir!

The Church of Christ is a "body" a "family" and can be likened or compared to such. To institutionalise it is to make it in the image of men and to fill it with human constructs. I won't even belabour the point.

- this means that everyone as christians have a unique placing in the church which is the institution of christ here on earth and as such the levitical order as it was in the old testament still stands in the new testament, since the old was a shadow of things to come,

The church as a gathering of believers should have structure, as any uncoorinated gathering will be chaotic and potentially pointless. But church meetings and operation is not the fullness of or the Christian experience or the totality of Christian life. Please read on in the chapter of Ephesians you quoted. All the functioning of church is for one thing. How is that one thing obtained? And what happens when that one thing happens?

Ephesians 4:13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

- And in your quote that we are all priests and Jesus the high priest, check that passage and you'll observe that the writter of Hebrew was teaching of man's relationship with God (our priesthood order stands), as we also have man's relationship with man(which is where the levitical order stands)

Mans relationship with man (or God) does not demand a clergy/laity spilt or an intermediary priestly role. The Leitical priesthood was "law" based, said law now done away with. The re-institution od redundant OT types into NT Christianity is tragically wrong and warps the grace of God in Christ Jesus. Mans relationship with man - whatever that is - flows out of his relationship with God.

you are very wrong brother!, if every one in the body of christ is allowed to do everything, then where is the place of orderliness and decency Paul admonished us of? (1cor.14:40), read and understand why bible said the OT is the shadow of the NT, and what this implies

I never alluded to a do everything. God is sovereign. He can do whatever, using whoever, whenever. Forced man-made structures force the Spirit out of body life.

Bro can u answer this question for me and i'll be pleased you just answered yourself? - who originated the practise of DEACONS? Christ or the early Apostles?

The Apostles.

Is Christian experience or a walk with God dependent on or diminished in the absence of a deaconate?

Bro, titheing is not seen as a command in the NT, but that aint mean it was abolished, it is for spiritual people. if you dont fast or got baptised, you can still enter into heaven, yes, but those who wants to attain a level in relationship with God will fast, so my brother it is all about decision, hunger and thirst. recall that babes drink milk, while adults eat hard meat, have you asked yourself what are the MILK and the HARD MEAT in xtianity.

Ah, the "its spiritual" ploy. Your talk of "types" misses the move to "heartfelt giving" for NT Christians. Its not spiritual, its merely religious. Fasting and baptism in or of themselves will not make yuo more spiritual or closer to God.

Hi Tonye-T,

Such a placid, self assured manner. It I didn't know better I'd swallow it hook, line and stinker  ! Are you a Pastor? If only for your non-aggressive demeanour when posting, I'll proffer a different point of view.

I don't believe a point by point rebuttal is required. Just a few points.

tonye-t:



- this new membership required that we were to follow the order of this people we now belong to, but do ours in Christ Jesus

- if we were to follow this order but in Christ, then who are the Levites? the clergies i guess, while christ is the high priest i suppose

- Now how was the welfare of these levites planned for in the OT? titheings and offerings i think isnt it? good, so i put it categorically to you that

TITHEING WAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE A MISNOMER, IT EXISTED B4 IT WAS INSTITUTED, AND AFTER THE FALL OF THE ORIGINAL ISRAEL, IT STILL CONTINUED,

Christ's opinion of Titheing

- Christ never criticised titheing, but he criticised those who practised it, its the same way he criticised them for wrongly fasting, but He never condemned fasting

- because Christ never discussed an issue deeply aint a reason that it was wrong, recall that there was never a place in the gospels where christ admonished us to read the bible, but we read bible dont we?, there was never a place in the gospels where christ admonished us to pick a certain day for general congregational worship, but we did, didnt we? - KunleoShob do you still remember that the ALL SCRIPTURES WERE GIVING FOR DOCTRINAL PURPOSES TOO?

Bro i still say that tiheing aint for everyone, its a spiritual thing understood by the spiritual people only! and lest i forget pls try and answer my question i asked you because TITHEING IS A LEVY JUST LIKE TAX IS, but the destination is different, the origin of TAXATION traced back from TITHEING

- Abraham/Abram; Is not recoreded as ever paying tithes as a matter of course, only as a one-off tithe of the spoils of war.

- There is no distinct and seperate Levitical order in Christianity. We are now all priests - with the Lord as High Priest.

- The Clergy as it exists today is mostly a man-made construct - sadly echoing the OT Levitical priesthood. I put it to you sir that you guess wrong, even if you suppose correctly.

- Care for the body is needs based. Simple. No special dispensation for elders per se, although they should be prefered for the labour of love they minister to the body.

- Even if we accede your point that the Lord "never condemned tithing", can we therefore assume he established it as an ordinance?

- Nobody has claimed "tithing" is wrong - or not acceptable in context. A freewill, self-determined choice to tithe by any Christian or group of believers is fine. You could say many are "against it being wrongly practised". The manipulative, guilt-inducing, scripture twisting exercise that obtains in many places today and is the driver for many tithers is to be decried, wouldn't you agree?

Stay cool

Like three Months ago, the Girl I share a Flat with, brought Home her date for a nightcap

but in the middle of the night as I went to use the bathroom, I saw her tied up but thinking it was part of a sex game

Is that what young people call it nowadays?

In a world of serial killers, rapists and assorted sociopaths you could have been relieved of a lot more than your rent money.

~Sissy~:

her mom said she took fidelity drugs.

if only she did !

?

@ Samstone, I'm alive and kicking - thank God they've got me in a padded cell hey! - thank you very much for asking. Et toi? Merci mon ami!
@ Napolean, But for the one letter I'd swear you were French like moi, but one things for sure, you are'nt speaking Greek. Merci Beacoup!
@ All, Take heart, like we say in France "Paris wasn't built in a day". _{Why do Nigerians say Rome? Is it because Lagos isn't yet finished ?}

Tres Bien
JK

Bonjour,

Yes it's me again. The gallic fly guy you would all like to emulate. I'm sure you have all heard the news about my bail. Unfortunately bail terms prevent me travelling outside France, or I would have loved to visit and discuss the finer points of "rogue trading" with les Nigerains personally.

It would be my first time outside France, as France is so great, the French never go on holiday, just visit various parts of France.

Anyway, just finished my early morning croissant - our superior equivalent to your puff puff - and had a quick gualloise - like a cigarette, but as you may have guessed, being French is somewhat more excellent.

First thanks to the madmoiselle - Pennywise I think - who wrote as follows;

Great sense of humour you have.

And apologies to any who didn't get it and more so to those who took offence, even moreso to those who took offence and put pen to paper as a consequence.

I have a meeting with les gendarmes to attend - like your "kill and go", but better dressed and with designer aftershave.

Would someone kindly answer my question about Dangote Flour;

Where the figures posted here correct? As my broker is claiming different figures

http://www.proshareng.com/myproshare/portal_news.php?id=3445

Of course, being a rougue trader,  I can't complain too much about sharp market practise, but you probably read that I didn't personally profit from my trading for the superior French bank SocGen.

Au revoir
Jerry

Gallic greetings to the peeps on NL,

Obviously my infamy precedes me so I won't bother introducing myself. So that everyone knows exactly where they stand, let me just point out that it's someway behind me, JK "the original "Rogue Trader", or at least the latest and biggest.

If the incumbent "Guru's", "Suicide Bombers" and "Fundamentalists" feel aggrieved by this and take it as an insult, please understand that I am French and possess more hubris than all 100 odd Nigerian tribes put together.

Being in custody at the moment, I have a lot of free time, so while i was surfing - free WiFi and laptops in our superior French Penitentiaries - I happened across this petit site.

Now mon amis, could someone kindly confirm the Dangote Flour IPO allotment, I'm hearing conflicting figures and need to verify.

Answer quickly les Nigerians or I may unleash my particualr brand of derivative trading on the puny NSE, making the distinction between suicide bomber and fundamentalist totally existential.

Au revoir
JK