₦airaland Forum

^^
Because this discussion ought to be focessed on the sinterpretations of the Bible onth slavery and homosexuality.

*will make the corrections later*

^^ supernatural explanation.

I think hallucinogens show us jow powerful our brÀins are. I'm never really convinced by demon explanation.

Don't you see something wrong with classifying an umbrella structure like theism/atheism into JuST one religion??

Every idea in the mind is a belief, simple. Beliefs are fundamental to a thinking mind, so to expect zero beliefs from atheists is to expect drumheads.

Religion, in my belief must be separated from philosophy and ideologies. Religion relates more to rituals, and works as a subculture. Religion is hard to define and we shouldn't open ourselves to oversimplifying it.

^^

Truthlight, pls focus on the OP, stop derailing the thread.

^^

The atheist is a big threat to the faithful, it reminds him of the frailty of his faith, reminds the faithful that some men live beyond a Christian's necessity to be saved.

My Question to you if God is incomprehensible, who are thou worshipping?

Rhymeyjohn: Atheism is a mirage at its best, mental and philosophical delusion at its worse. An atheist is some one who wants to escape the reality of being held accountable for his actions. Its a state of mental ease from the guilt of a God who would hold them for their actions. No wonder the bible says,'the fool has said in his heart there is no God,they are corrupt, they have done abominable, there, there is none that doeth good God, they are corrupt, they have done abominable, there, there is none that doeth good

Ok.

BUT for the meantime, Ray Comfort's definition if well thought of, does cover atheists who were formerly christians.

Ubenedictus: actually cant remember saying anything about "wilberforce" or cherry picking. On the otherhand i believe anyone that say the whole bible both nt and ot was totally and positively against all forms of slavery is baised and anyone who says d nt and ot both approve slavery in all its types is even more baised.
Slavery is a condition that i believe existed even b4 d first letter of d bible was written to that effect d laws of moses wont immediately axe it (see the case on divorce), instead it would make it more humane, particularly, i opposed and do oppose d idea that chartel slavery as in d trans atlantic slavery was preached either by the old or new testament. Instead indetured servitude as joseph-leah case show was allowed (in essence one can sell his or herself into slavery for a specified amount of time to earn an income). This isn't so different from hired labourers.
On the otherhand prisoners of war could be enslaved (it is interesting dat even today d geneva convention and many others give few rights to prisoners of war.) yet these prisoner were entitled to their meal and basic necessity and could marry etc. Any master who injures his slave is obligated by d law of moses to free the slave. This shows that even in such cases d ot allows for the slave to be treated humanely. I would like to even add that the treatment of prisoners of war in d ot seem more humane than it happens in our present day (atleast i'm not aware of a country who release their prisoner of war becos he was injured).
These cases in the old t not withstand the new t goes on to tell d xtian masters to treat their slaves not as servant but as brothers. Those passages in no way support what today is called slavery but instead teaches that a xtian can truly leave a xtian life no matter the condition he finds himself.
Peace.

Ubenedictus, your claim is unsubstantiated! I don't understand why you presume all persons described as slaves suddenly become indentured servants!

The Mosaic laws clearly state that israelite slaves are limited to 7yrs of slavery to one owner! Hence they can be sold before the expiry of the slave term, and the clock is wound back for the new owner. Unlike how indentured servitude was drawn, the years on the contract are constant regardless of creditor or assignor.

Meanwhile foreign slaves are property for Life!

While in the NT, under Roman law, a slave is the property of the master and can be disposed as wished. Hence those verses commanding the slaves to obey their masters, fully contemplates the severity and inhuman condition of slavery! Just as bad as trans altantic slavery.

The Bible expresses approves and tolerates slavery, same as it expressly prohibits homosexuality, invariably doctrine is left to interpretation!

Pls logicboy and debosky and ihedinobi stop derailing the thread! Thank you

^^^

Are central/foundational presuppositions subject to validations??

Because if they are, your entire concept of worldview fall apart.

Ubenedictus: my dear, i did and they didn't contradict what i wrote above.

Do you think Wilberforce was cherry picking anti-slavery verses and in believing the Bible and Christianity is against Slavery, the subjugation/relegation of a man to property

truthislight: Taking the bible out of context does not make you smart but rather shows you have a twisted heart.

The aim of the NT to Gentile christians was to ensure peace in the christian congregation between the both parties in an already existing situation so that both can serve christ and qualify for God's kingdom where God will rule and there will be no slave or slave master there.

You should first know the aim of christianity befor you twist/talk.

You cannot impose rules and be judgmental on a woman you are wooing for marriage when she has not consented to your marriage proposal yet.
What if she says no?

Bringing all men, slave and master to serve christ is the target and aim and not to polarise the system and give people excuses not to come to christ.

Slave and master can then come together and serve God and obey christ.

You people need to get the wisdom as to the main aim of christianity.

(1 Timothy 2:3-4).
"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all soft of men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4).

Christianity is attracting people to the bigger picture = salvation into the kingdom of God.

And in some cases, the word slave does not mean servitude as in trans atlantic slavery else they will not have the freedom to become christians.

But is a reference to hired men.

Even the christians and their overseers are all called slaves even though they are not slaves in the actual sense of the word and in the context of the use of the word "slave" in the 21st century.

Your twisting cannot change the truth and facts and intent of christianity to arbitration in secular matters.

Christianity = salvation into God's kingdom for all sort of men.

*edited*

The above is your own interpretation, forming a picture a bit far from a literal reading. Same with th OP.

My argument against the Design argument is simple.

There are two burdens for you can choose from, either accept a prior chaotic world, which God simply reforms. God as designer, accepts the pre existence of physical laws which must predetÉrmine God's creation. Hence God wouldn't be the cause of Everything OR

That God created the world out of Nothing which characteristically has no designs or laws or rules of causality. The end result will be a designless world.

Which isn't even a twist in the OP! Let's try out this angle ONLY in this thread.

1. It doesn't matter, as long as a worldview is the solid foundation of beliefs every conscious mind must hold viewing the world.

2. Erroneous worldviews will be discussed in 3.

3. From your argument, it means there is an overarching system of objectivity one can appeal to without resorting to presuppositions. IF there is a dichtomy of Truth and Falsity, the guides to these can be appealed to directly! Or rather all presuppositions are weighed against them.

"Know" is interchangeable with "understand". You can understand concepts like Zero, and abstracts like Perfect Good, COntradictions, etc.

Ubenedictus: i saw your post and couldnt help noticing 1 cor 7:21-23 it says
where u a slave when called? Never mind. But if you can gain your freedom, avail yourself the opportunity. For he who was called in the lord as a slave is a freedman of the Lord. Likewise he who was free when called is a slave of christ. You have been bought with a price; do not become slaves of men
these verses showed the xtian atitude to slaves as recorded in the bible
1. If u are slave and can redeem urself, do so.
2. If u cant redeem urself that doesnt remove nothing from your eternal salvation/redemption.
3. A christian slave can practice his faith even under such conditions.
4. Even while d institution of d world calls them slaves, they are freemen in christ.

These show that while freedom is preferable and to be sought after, a christian who lived in the days of slavery could practice their faith.
The NT verses u cited aren't endorsement for slavery but a guide for slaves who are christians on how to live their christian lives even in their condition.
If you really wish to get a biblical perspective of slavery then read d book of philemon.

And hey people are gonna use the bible to justify anything they wish that doesnt mean the bible says so and more interesting is d fact that d slavery recorded in d bible was regulated if d slave masters were interested in using scripture to justify their practice then it stands to reason that the slavers must and should follow d guidlines of scriptures wen it comes to treatment of slaves, history has it that they didnt! They simply used d bible as a blanket for their crimes.
Peace.

Pls look at ALL the verses in totality, and respond. Note that redemption was available to the African slaves at that time.

Image123: homosexuality may be an inborn tendency like foolishness naturally bound in a child's heart, or the tendency of some to lie or be boisterous or easily angry, it may also be acquired/contracted like a deadly disease that it is as evil communication corrupts good manners, and there is the possibility of sin's enticement or walking in the counsel of the ungodly and standing in the way of sinners. Whatever way this sickness comes, it needs to be driven out like Jesus would cast out devils instead of being fed, nurtured and pampered.

We all know how you feel, but this would be derailing the thread, you have to compare/contrast with Slavery.

@ seyibrown

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

And examine it with your statement:

Slavery was not approved but regulated.
Homosexuality was neither approved nor regulated.

Even though my mind recoils from absurdity of juxaposing non approval with regulation in a positive statement. However it is contrary to the Eph 6:5. Slaves including our African slave brothers, were not only condemned to lose their humanity but also expected to be obedient, because disobedience is a Sin!

The pro slavers would have had this verse very handy for their arguments for slavery and probably prolonged the Slave Trade. What I wonder is: what did Wilberforce and Co think of, of such verses.

[size=50pt]all Evangelical Theists are therefore DEBUNKED by a Lagos State High Court Ruling! [/size]

Yea, an atheist "knew" the Lord, that doesn't imply an acknowledgement of God's existence rather an understanding of the concept God/Lord.

@Ubenedictus

These New Testament verses clearly approve of slavery and must have been the verses the slave masters used to justify the trans altantic slave trade.

Kay 17: However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The slave will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Romans 13:1-5
" 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience."

Titus 3:1,
"Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good."

Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Col 3:22
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

1 Cor 7:21-22
"21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave."

Lots of OT verses though.

^^^

Great effort!

If worldviews are existential primaries, then they are foundations upto themselves and do not stand to be validated by external considerations such as reason, inner experience, outer experience, etc. They ought to determine the epistemological tools, rather than tools decide them.

How do presuppositions despite being the starting points for thoughts and necessary, get erroneous?! Doesn't that imply that there is a higher consideration other than the presuppositions?!

You must accept the subjectivity in all worldviews or else, you will make up a contradiction.

Logicboy and truthlight, pls stop derailing my thread! Ubenedictus, what do you have to say about this OP?

Most people take the Faith pill

Where are TV01 and Ihedinobi?!!

I like Cazuza, he is a very good musician

Jesus was never described to be a celibate, and we can conclude that there was a subtle relationship btw Jesus and Mary

And someone will say Science and Christianity don't conflict

Seyibrown's response was actually superb and brilliant!

truthislight: Even today people are still collecting tith from christians even though it was not meant for christians and gentiles.

A greedy/selfish/wicked/corrupt mind will always want to use the to justify all sort of evil and corruption.

You are doing exactly the samething on this thread trying to use the bible to justify homosexuality.

It is all a thing of the heart, and Yahweh searches the heart and will Judge human accordingly.


"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" (Isaiah 5:20).

*appeal to emotion*

@seyibrown

Even if its an atom, the burden of proof always starts from the claimant.

truthislight: Of all the scriptures that you put forward from the NT, it is this OT leviticus 25. That i wish to address and present it straight and not this your cherry picking out of context.

Why did you not quote it from vers 39 to have a full understanding?

This people offered themselves out of their own freewill/volition to work for another person due to their poor economic state as to survive.

It help them to raise money and survive and also set a day that they will be free = year of Jubilee.



Leviticus 25:39-55

New International Version (NIV)

39 “‘If any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to you, do not make them work as slaves. 40 They are to be treated as hired workers or temporary residents among you; they are to work for you until the Year of Jubilee. 41 Then they and their children are to be released, and they will go back to their own clans and to the property of their ancestors. 42 Because the Israelites are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt, they must not be sold as slaves. 43 Do not rule over them ruthlessly, but fear your God.
..................

44 “‘
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.


(even the situation can be in the revers, where an Iraelite can survive by selling himself)

47 “‘If a foreigner residing among you becomes rich and any of your fellow Israelites become poor and sell themselves to the foreigner or to a member of the foreigner’s clan, 48 they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them: 49 An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves. 50 They and their buyer are to count the time from the year they sold themselves up to the Year of Jubilee. The price for their release is to be based on the rate paid to a hired worker for that number of years. 51 If many years remain, they must pay for their redemption a larger share of the price paid for them. 52 If only a few years remain until the Year of Jubilee, they are to compute that and pay for their redemption accordingly. 53 They are to be treated as workers hired from year to year; you must see to it that those to whom they owe service do not rule over them ruthlessly.

54 “‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee, 55 for the Israelites belong to me as servants. They are my servants, whom I brought out of Egypt. I am the Lord your God.

How would whites in the trans altantic slave trade period have interpreted this verses?! That it was morally right to enslave peoples besides your race??

Now I hope you see how important interpretations are?

Logicboy03: What are you arhuing here? The racists isrealites believed that they were the chosen people and felt that their people shouldnt be slaves. This is why they had time limits and jubilees for isrealites slaves/indentured servants.

The slaves from other nations nko? The ones that had no freedom at all (stated in verse 44 that they were slaves for life)? The ones tthat could be beaten as long as they dont die?

mtchew, you didnt even explain verse 44. You applied a preceeding verse that didnt even fit the context of verse 44

(Y)

However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance.  You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way.  (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear.  Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.  (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed.  If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful.  You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts.  Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them.  (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

The slave will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it.  "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly.  Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given."  (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Romans 13:1-5
" 1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you.
4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience."

Titus 3:1,
"Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good."

Titus 2:9
"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them"

1 Peter 2:18
"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh."

Col 3:22
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to win their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord."

1 Cor 7:21-22
"21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don't let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so.
22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord's freedman; similarly, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ's slave."

Lots of OT verses though.