₦airaland Forum

Straight to the point padre. I hope your answer will not only cause reflection in the hearts of those who have been misled in their lifetime but teach us the ethics of decorum in nairaland conversations. God Bless the Catholic Church.

God bless Naija

PDPwayoo: My advise to single men. Dont ever marry an illiterate. Though GEJ and PEJ are of same level of education.
IS ONLY GOD KNOWS WHAT GEJ IS ENDURING AT HOME. PEJ IS THE HUSBAND.

God bless Naija

This is what should feature on Nigeria got Talent TV show plus in any country with responsible leadership, this is what multinationals like Glo, MTN, Etisalat, Airtel, etc should sponsor to have on tv, not .Big Brother Africa'. I wonder what is big when wayward African youth showcase brazen stupidity and silliness all in the name of westernization. God help Nigeria.

naijadeyhia: I AM AMAZED THAT YOU CLAIM SOME OF THE CHURCH FATHERS ACTUALLY WITNESSED THE ASSUMPTION OF MARY YET THEY DIDNT DEEM IT FIT TO INCLUDE IT IN ANY OF THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE AS WE KNOW IT INCLUDING THE ADDITIONAL 7 BOOKS THAT CATHOLICS UPHOLD?

SO YOU BELIEVE THE SO CALLED CHURCH FATHERS RATHER THAN THE WORD OF GOD? ONE MORE TIME IF YOU CAN SHOW ME A SCRIPTURE WHERE IT WAS NOT EVEN BOLDLY MENTIONED THAT MARY DID NOT DIE BUT WENT STRAIGHT TO HEAVEN BUT A SCRIPTURE WHERE IT WAS EVEN HINTED VAGUELY THEN YOU WILL CONVERT ME

John 21:24-25 This is the disciple who testifies about these things and has written these things, and we know that his testimony is true.  There are many other things that Jesus did. If every one of them were written down, I suppose the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

This is referring only to Jesus, not to talk about the other players in the salvation story.

naijadeyhia: [b]“and His grace toward me was not in vain;
but I labored more abundantly than they all,
yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me”
I CORINTHIANS 15:10

God’s Grace is not a sentiment but a power. Grace, as with everything in God, is given with purpose and intention. We see here in Corinthians that the REASON Paul laboured so abundantly was BECAUSE of the Grace of God that was with Him. Its purpose is to produce within us a life that reveals God’s salvation, His life, and His righteousness. Grace received which does not bring forth an ardent pursuit of the Living Christ, a labouring in the ministration of His Life, and a salvation that produces a life of a growth in righteousness is a grace that has been received in vain.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly, in this present world”
TITUS 2:11 – 12

This same Grace which brings salvation into the life of every believer is the SAME Grace that “teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts” and enables us that we should live “righteously and godly in this PRESENT world!” How we misrepresent God when Grace is presented as a sentiment with no correlation to living a life of righteousness in this present world. The grace of God has appeared to ALL MEN but its efficacy and power is known only in those who reveal it by the life they live.

We read here that that Grace produced within Paul a labouring and a life of strenuous discipleship for he was empowered by the grace of God that was working with him to the Glory of God.

“We then, as workers together with him,
beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain”
II CORINTHIANS 6:1

The Glory of the New Testament is that Jesus HAS COME and IS COME. He is at work within our hearts by the means of HIS Grace to bring forth in us a “working out of our own salvation” because He is ever “working in us” a will to do His Will!

“work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of his good pleasure”
PHILLIPIANS 2:12 – 13
[/b]

I will begin from my previous post

Titus 3:7 that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

1 That been made righteous by His grace is the meaning of the bold text from Titus
2 We might be made heirs... is based on justification in the first phrase
3 IN CONCLUSION Grace rids us of sin.

Refer to the context of 1 Cor 15:10, Paul was talking about how the unmerited grace of God can propel us to do good works that are beyond human logic. The logic here been that all the apostles before him should have been working harder than him, but that he an unworthy persecutor of Christians, has turned round to surpass them in the ministry is completely beyond his comprehension; were it not for grace.

Lesson: Grace sanctifies us to do wonderful deeds that glorify God according to his gifts.

The only thing we merit about grace is our acceptance of it in our lives, Mary accepted it, Paul and the other apostles did same.

1 Peter 4:10 As each one has received a special gift, employ it in serving one another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.

naijadeyhia: Grace is given for a specific purpose and it was never to erase the sins of Mary. if her sins were erased before conception then Christ would not have fully taken on the likeness of man because the likeness of man was sinful but the truth is that Christ was both the Son of Man physically but the Son of God spiritually and since his birth from Mary was physical she could only lay claim to him from the physical and not from the spiritual. Please stop the delusion.

Grace is a mystery that cannot be explained logically. And what is the specific purpose of grace? Sola Scriptura pls

naijadeyhia: Grace is given for a [b]specific purpose and it was never to erase the sins of Mary. if her sins were erased before conception then Christ would not have fully taken on the likeness of man because the likeness of man was sinful but the truth is that Christ was both the Son of Man physically but the Son of God spiritually and since his birth from Mary was physical she could only lay claim to him from the physical and not from the spiritual. Please stop the delusion. [/b]

Grace is a mystery that cannot be explained logically. And what is the specific purpose of grace? Sola Scriptura pls

naijadeyhia: If you understood the meaning of grace as i outlined and when i used the word "undeserving" then you would catch my drift.

You have either not been reading my posts or something else, time without number I have mentioned how we all do not merit the grace we are given. For the sake of clearity, I will repeat my self again using different words.

Grace is a participation in the life of God, which is poured unearned into human beings, whom it heals of sin and sanctifies.

Full of Grace becomes the only reason why marry is without sin, because there is simply no room. Her body and soul is FULL OF GRACE. Note that the angelic declaration happens just before incarnation so as to prep her to become an Ark that will Carry the sinless Jesus for nine months.

naijadeyhia: Now you are making sense. Grace is from God to man. The superior to the inferior. It is only shown to the undeserving such as Mary was.

Thanks for the last line about Mary, on point. It just confirms Mary's position too about her unmerited Grace.

naijadeyhia: [b]The word 'grace' (CHEN in Hebrew, CHARIS in Greek), as it is used in the scriptures, literally means 'favor', to bend or stoop in kindness to another as a superior to an inferior. It has the idea of graciousness in manner or action. When used in reference to God, it is the benevolent action of Him stooping down to us in His kindness to reach us in our need, and convey upon us a benefit. His grace has been termed 'unmerited favor' but it is more than an attitude of favor or mercy. His mercy is an expression of His compassion toward us, but His grace is an extension of benevolence translated into action that releases His enabling power into our lives.
Seeing that we never merit His favor, we are always indebted to Him to extend to us His mercy and bestow upon us His grace whereby we may respond to Him in an acceptable manner. From beginning to end we are dependent upon Him, for life itself, for all sustenance by which we continue to live and have our existence, and most importantly for our spiritual life without which we are but the "living dead".[/b]

There's some verbosity going on here, and I will cut the crap and keep things simple

Grace is a free gift from God to man. There is nothing man can do to merit grace, because it is a gift, after all. Faith is also a free gift AND a response to grace.

naijadeyhia: WHAT YOU SHOULD SAY IS THAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS ACTING MORE LIKE A SECRET CULT BECAUSE ONLY SECRET CULTS KEEP SECRETS. EVEN GOD REVEALS HIS SECRETS TO THOSE WHOM HE LOVES. CALL IT SOLA BIBLE OR WHATEVER, IF YOU CATHOLICS HAVE A DIFFERENT BIBLE SAY IT HERE AND ALSO POINT OUT TO ME WHERE IT IS WRITTEN IN YOUR OWN VERSION OF THE BIBLE THAT MARY DID NOT DIE BUT WENT UP TO HEAVEN WITHOUT SEEING DEATH AND I REPEAT I WILL BECOME A CATHOLIC IN NO TIME

I will love to become your real life friend. But again, am not sure...

naijadeyhia: GRACE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SIN BUT RATHER HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH FAVOR. UNDESERVED FAVOR. MARY WAS HIGHLY FAVORED BUT NOT SINLESS. GO OUTSIDE, TAKE SOME FRESH AIR, CLEAR YOUR HEAD AND THEN COME BACK AND SPEAK INTELLIGENTLY AND VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT

Favour is a word that undermines grace
Grace is the sanctifying power of God, given to us unworthy servants without merit.
God favours us when each time he gives us his grace

Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. The word measure speaks to the amount of grace we may receive. Mary's was FULL, giving no room for sin.

Titus 3:7 And so,since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life."

1 Justification means Righteousness
2 We are made Righteous (without sin) by GRACE
3 Then we become heirs of the Kingdom, since nothing with stain can enter the kingdom of Heaven.

bukatyne: Do you know that the Bible refers to all believers as 'Saints'? The prayer of a righteous living person is effective. The next verse tells the elders to lay their hands on the sick etc. How can a dead elder lay his hands on the living? Funny, the Bible only called about 4 people righteous (Daniel, Noah, David and Abraham) and Mary was not amongst them

It obvious that you need biblical lessons on the saving GRACE of God, and I will gladly oblige you that in the context of our discuss.

Angel Gabriel used a royal greeting for Mary, when he said "Hail". This term "Hail", as in "Hail Caesar" or "Hail, King of the Jews", wasn't used for peasants. It is a term used for royalty, as in the Queen of the King of Kings, or the Queen Mother of Heaven. Notice too, that Angel Gabriel did not address her by her name of Mary, but rather by her new title - "Full of Grace". To be "full of grace" means that there can be NO room for sin anywhere in your body or soul. And we know from Romans 6:14 that the more grace one has, the less sin one has:

Romans 6:14: For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Ephesians 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. The word measure speaks to the amount of grace we may receive. Mary's was FULL, giving no room for sin.

El Guapo: [color=#0066ff]Learn? From a Catholican? World's best Sinners thanks to Google - SMH

I'd rather seek for an atheist teaching than Urs - I wouldnt want to be fed all sort of Mary, Rosary and Papacy balderdash! When I tag u fellahs 'Plastic Xtians' I swear i mean it with my soul.

Someone opined that Mary deserves the honour she recieves from u guys cos she had a close relationship with Christ, citing the Incidents at the marriage In Canaan and Christ's Cruxification.

Now I ask, If ur built up yardstick to honouring Mary was based on a mere 'Closeness' to Christ, why dont u get to honour Apostle Peter who unarguably was Christ bestman?

He witnessed the transfiguration with Christ which Mary never saw, was ready to fight for Christ even at death point and after denying him three times, felt remorseful and wept for forgiveness - A School of thought would tell u that Peter was 'In Love' with Jesus. So why Is he yet to get a Stature? He'd communicate with his man Christ on ya behalf, Olodos!

You dudes had berra stopped deluding urselves and get a healthy Xtian Life![/color]

I was almost tempted to ask whether you were high when you typed the bolded text. LOL

naijadeyhia: I WOULD LIKE TO GIVE OPPORTUNITY TO THE CATHOLIC APOLOGETICS HERE TO ASK ME ANY QUESTION THEY FEEL LIKE PERTAINING THEIR BELIEFS IN THE BIBLE OR ANY QUESTION PERTAINING MINE. OR ANY CLARIFICATION THEY SEEK ON MARY, THE POPE, PETER, JESUS, AND ALL ELSE.

LET US REASON TOGETHER. PLEASE LET EVERYONE ELSE JUST OBSERVE THE DISCUSSION. THE HOLY SPIRIT WILL TAKE OVER FROM HERE. GLORY BE TO GOD!

Anytime you have the urge to prove your self worth to anybody, always remember Matthew 4:1-11. twice the Devil Challenged Jesus to prove that he was son of God, twice Jesus declined. There is what is called pride, the Bible says in Proverbs 16:18–19 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall. It is better to be of a lowly spirit with the poor than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Like her son Jesus, Mary demonstrated biblical humility when she said, 'because he has looked upon the humble state of his servant.' Lk 1:48

naijadeyhia: BIBLE MEANS A COLLECTION OF CHRISTIAN BOOKS CONSISTING OF THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS. THE BIBLE CONSISTS OF BOOKS WHICH WERE WRITTEN BEFORE CHRIST CAME AND AFTER CHRIST ROSE AGAIN. WHO [b]"CREATED" THE OLD TESTAMENT BOOKS OF THE BIBLE? WAS IT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH WERE NOT EVEN EXISTING THEN. WHO "CREATED" THE NEW TESTAMENT WHICH THE WAS COMPILED BY THE LIKES OF JOHN THE BELOVED, PAUL, PETER AND SO ON EXCEPT YOU SAY THEY WERE ALL CATHOLICS.[/b]

You know better than to derail the discussion, the Word in contention is meant to be COMPILED. Writings are at no time created, whether the Old or New Testament. So lets get on course. IT WILL BE NICE OF YOU TO RESPOND TO THE HISTORY LESSON THAT Chukwudi04 has been giving. He has raised important issues therein.

naijadeyhia: Jude he quotes from a prophecy of Enoch; Jude 1:14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints.” Jude’s reference the Book of Enoch is not exact, which does seem to be contrary to the conclusion he quoted from the book of Enoch.

Why did Jude a good disciple of Christ reference a non canonical book? How uninspiring of Him? If I were a protestant (Those Protesting against the Catholic Church), I will obliterate the book of Jude from the Bible.

naijadeyhia: [size=15pt]The apocrypha does not belong in the Bible because It IS not inspired.[/size][/b]

On which authority do you state this? a Biblical verse may suffice.

chukwudi44: Point 3:The council of Jamnia rejected this books

Yes the books were actually rejected by this council.Interstingly this council was a Jewish council and was convoked primarily because a new religion(xtianity) had arisen and has began using similar scriptures to them and thus the need to create a demarcation.

It is most worthy to note that this council that selected the 39 books today used by the protestants equally rejected Jesus and the entire new testament.It is obvious from the foregoing that the holy spirit was not ivvolved in this decision.It thus beholves on all right thinking xtians to discountenance the resolutions of this council.Protestants in the late 18th century adopted a hybrod canon I.e a combination of the jamnia canon and the catholic NT.This hypocritical at best.

My Brother you know book die. This is History 101, and anybody can check the facts.

bukatyne: I ask: If Mary died a virgin, what happened to her marriage with Joseph?

Mary was not married to Joseph, the Bible says she was betrothed to Joseph. Lk 1:27

bukatyne: Nobody argues about intercession.

Our problem is that Mary a dead person is the 'Intercessor.'

If you are looking for a heavenly intercessor, what about the Holy Spirit? Rom 8 : 26

Why leave the Holy Spirit as ask a dead person to intercede for you?

If you are asking your Physical Rev Fr who is with you to pray for you, there is no problem.

How did you miss this post I made previously

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before you as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Can you figure out the importance of incense in prayers from the time of David, to the Apostle? Happily this tradition is maintained by Catholics.

The saints who have gone before us know better, so they offer their intercessory prayers for us, with incense.

That is why Catholics pray to them, 'ASK THEM', to present our petitions before the golden altar that our sinfulness may not access.

By the way, James 5:16 say "...The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." So who is more righteous than the saints before the throne of God in Heaven? Among them Mary Ranks top on the list since God said through Angel Gabriel that she is FULL OF GRACE

naijadeyhia: '

SEE WHY I SAY YOU NEED TO FIRST GET THE HOLY SPIRIT BEFORE YOU STUDY THE WORD OF GOD? YOUR CONFUSION IS TAKING THE LITERAL WORD "WOMAN" THERE. THE WOMAN REFERRED TO IN REVELATIONS 12 REPRESENTS ISRAEL AND NOT MARY. ISRAEL GODS CHOSEN BRIDE AND HER OFFSPRING WHO IS CHRIST THE MESSIAH, (Rev 12:5; Isaiah 7:14; 9:6; 66:7.8; Micah 5:2; Romans. 9:4,5)

The woman is not the church neither is it Mary, since the church or Mary did not bring forth Christ, But rather He brought forth the church and created Mary.

The sun reflects redeemed Israel's unique glory, brilliance and dignity because of her exulted status and shows her as God's chosen nation.

The moon under her feet alludes to God's promise of dominion, and the crown of twelve stars pictures royalty and relates to the 12 tribes of Israel. Go to Genesis 37 verses 9 - 11 and read about the dream Joseph had about the sun, moon and 11 stars which were bowing down to Joseph. (who was the 12th)

I am not singling you out of the lot, but I happen to love your passion to make a point about your believes which have led you to go over board and appear violent by using bold text in read colour making it highly repugnant to read. You may want to sub pedal on that approach so we can have a decent conversation. However my real query with you is that you have not redressed the fundamental issues I raised with you yesterday even when you noted you will.

Like many other people, if we do not address the issues raised, this post may end becoming a ranting party, that fails to teach, instruct and counsel.

As a Catholic, I am open to accepts my errors and acknowledge strengths in other argument, with the Bible as my guide.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT
Paul says in 1 Timothy 2:1- “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.” (may be no intercessions for women, since only men is mentioned in scripture here)

So asking for intercessory prayer is a very biblical thing to do, especially from a holy person like Mary (James 5:16).

So how can Mary hear thousands of prayers said to her daily from all over the world? Isn’t she just a human being and not God? Catholics believe we share in God’s divinity when we are in heaven. Why? Because of the words of Peter, in

2 Pet.1:3: "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence 4: by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature."

We see from these verses of Peter that saints in heaven are partakers in the divine nature, which includes hearing prayers. Saints in heaven have no power of their own. All of their power comes from Christ Jesus, who shares it with them. We know that they witness for us, because of the words of St. Paul, in Hebrews 12:1: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” Witnesses testify to a judge on behalf of the accused, and Paul here is saying that the saints in heaven are our witnesses.

Asking these witnesses, especially Mary, to help us with our problems is a very good thing to do. Some people make the mistake of thinking that praying to a saint equals worshiping that saint like he/she is a god, but “to pray” simply means “to ask”, not “to worship”.

bukatyne: You mean Mary is the mother of Jesus while God is the father of Jesus?

Mary and God on the same pedestal?

You may need English lessons if you cannot comprehend a simple grammatical expression! No offence intended.

heisenberg33: I really wish i had the kind of enviable patience you and my catholic brothers/sisters in nairaland exude when you try to convince these protestant charlatans. The problem is i have a low threshold for temper when i argue with fools. One thing you should know is that these protestant gas bags are not ready to accept anything from you, no matter how you try to convince them. The charlatan who started this thread only meant it to be for ridicule and not for the purpose of being convinced. They would not honour the mother of God, but you see them honoring their spurious "GENERAL OVER SEERS AND DADDYS".....They quote a bible they have no idea how it was compiled, just like a fool trying to use a proverb....Please my catholic brothers and sisters do not waste your time with these people except you are done with every other useful thing you have to do in a day, and you want to catch some fun.

I love your honesty. We owe them a service, to correct their erroneous protests;

2 Timothy 3:16 - All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Romans 15:4 For whatever was written was given to us for our learning, that through patience and comfort of the scriptures we might have hope.

chidyhels: Same argument the jews were on when christ was born; is it ñot the son of Joseph the carpenter?
Who did God count so worthy to bear Jesus without sin? Stop contradicting yourself.
Catholics pray to many saints to interceed for them,i dnt knw why u people are so particular about mary. A woman that Christ openly told the world that its nt his time,bt because she asked he did wat she asked of him.

I am loving the bold text; those who are here to learn can sure learn. That you protest against the Truth, does not make it a lie. Many have done it before you, and the truth remains that the 'gates of hell shall not prevail over the Church that Christ founded on the Peter'.

ejiboy1: Pls Catholics read this:
"In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God." (John 16:26-27).
Even Jesus himself said he will not ask on ur behalf, but you should ask the father directly, in his name. His name is just like a stamp for God to accept ur prayers, and any anybody(including priests, pastors, mary, saints, prophet, etc) who is praying or interceding for you must pray to God in his name before it get to God. You guys are mistaken by praying to mary to intercede for u to Jesus cus Jesus himself is not the Almighty God but the Son of the Almighty God and he told us to pray directly to the Almighty God cus he love us, and not Mary to Him. Why can't we just obey him. If we look at the bible well, there is never a place where Jesus said we should pray to him, talkless of asking someone to pray to him. He even gave us an example of prayer which started with 'Our Father' that's God directly. He always tells us to pray to God in his name but u guys are doing otherwise by praying to him through mary and here he told u that he will not ask God on your behalf, so how will your prayers reach to God. Stop taking earthly Mother-Child relationship as an heavenly thought and Mary is just a favoured earthly mother of Jesus and not Heavenly Mother of God.. She is a human just a human like us who was favoured to bear Jesus on earth. If we believe in the bible and in Jesus, then do what he tells you and not what you think of.
I know its hard for a Catholic from birth to agreed on this, but I didn't write this because of catholic or no catholic. I wrote this because we call ourselves christians, and christians have there book which is Bible, so let's just decide for once to forget about religion and know the truth which is by reading the bible.
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16).
So let's study the word of God and abide by it. That's the will of God

I like your attempt to draw us to scripture, in order to open up your eyes, I will like you to also read the following:
John 17:9-17, 9 I pray for them I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:  10 and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are .
LESSONS
1 Jesus prays for the saved in perpetuity that we may not lose our faith. (Did I hear some people say once saved?...)
2 Jesus is glorified in his followers, even though he obtains glory from God before the world was
3 Here's how Protestants (Those protesting against the Catholic Church) keep frustrating Jesus' desire that we may be ONE

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before you as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Can you figure out the importance of incense in prayers from the time of David, to the Apostle? Happily this is maintained by Catholics.

The saints who have gone before us know better, so they offer their intercessory prayers for us, with incense.

That is why Catholics pray to them, 'ASK THEM', to present our petitions before the golden altar that our sinfulness may not access.

Mary been just an earthly woman?
You may need to read up on what God means when he say through Angel Gabriel, Hail Full of Grace. Luke 1:28

She is the WOMAN in Gen. 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. The context here is the dawn of the fall of man.

The Prophets reassure the people of God of this promise
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.” Context: Man has languished in his fall and is in search of God for a way out.

Jesus was born and the Jews did not recognize him because of his humble birth. So at the wedding at Cana, rather than cling to Mary as his mother, he draws our attention to her by calling her WOMAN. This is in no way demeaning, but a pointer to an indicator in God's plan of salvation.

We still don't get it, so just before he expire under the cross, he makes a last ditch at it, by presenting the WOMAN to the beloved apostle John 19:26-27. All the apostles had scattered upon his arrest, John the beloved happened to be the only one, keeping the apostolic witness of our salvation alive. He represented all believers. So Mary was presented to Mother his church, as the WOMAN in God's plan of salvation.

Even this last effort failed to stick, so on the Island of Pathmos, John the beloved is the only apostle privileged to peek into heaven; Revelation 11:19, John tells us that he sees the Ark of the Covenant. In the next verse, Revelation 12:1, he describes the Ark for us as “A woman clothed with the sun”, a term that could only mean the immaculately conceived Virgin Mary.

The rest of Revelation 12 talks about the enmity prefigured in Genesis 3:15 between the devil and THE WOMAN, and how satan can’t get to her. In Revelation 12:17, it says that we are her children if we follow the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus.

ejiboy1: Pls Catholics read this:
"In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God." (John 16:26-27).
Even Jesus himself said he will not ask on ur behalf, but you should ask the father directly, in his name. His name is just like a stamp for God to accept ur prayers, and any anybody(including priests, pastors, mary, saints, prophet, etc) who is praying or interceding for you must pray to God in his name before it get to God. You guys are mistaken by praying to mary to intercede for u to Jesus cus Jesus himself is not the Almighty God but the Son of the Almighty God and he told us to pray directly to the Almighty God cus he love us, and not Mary to Him. Why can't we just obey him. If we look at the bible well, there is never a place where Jesus said we should pray to him, talkless of asking someone to pray to him. He even gave us an example of prayer which started with 'Our Father' that's God directly. He always tells us to pray to God in his name but u guys are doing otherwise by praying to him through mary and here he told u that he will not ask God on your behalf, so how will your prayers reach to God. Stop taking earthly Mother-Child relationship as an heavenly thought and Mary is just a favoured earthly mother of Jesus and not Heavenly Mother of God.. She is a human just a human like us who was favoured to bear Jesus on earth. If we believe in the bible and in Jesus, then do what he tells you and not what you think of.
I know its hard for a Catholic from birth to agreed on this, but I didn't write this because of catholic or no catholic. I wrote this because we call ourselves christians, and christians have there book which is Bible, so let's just decide for once to forget about religion and know the truth which is by reading the bible.
"All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16).
So let's study the word of God and abide by it. That's the will of God

I like your attempt to draw us to scripture, in order to open up your eyes, I will like you to also read the following:
John 17:9-17, 9 I pray for them I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:  10 and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are .
LESSONS
1 Jesus prays for the saved in perpetuity that we may not lose our faith. (Did I hear some people say once saved?...)
2 Jesus is glorified in his followers, even though he obtains glory from God before the world was
3 Here's how Protestants (Those protesting against the Catholic Church) keep frustrating Jesus' desire that we may be ONE

Psalm 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before you as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints on the golden altar which was before the throne.

Can you figure out the importance of incense in prayers from the time of David, to the Apostle? Happily this is maintained by Catholics.

The saints who have gone before us know better, so they offer their intercessory prayers for us, with incense.

That is why Catholics pray to them, 'ASK THEM', to present our petitions before the golden altar that our sinfulness may not access.

Mary been just an earthly woman?
You may need to read up on what God means when he say through Angel Gabriel, Hail Full of Grace. Luke 1:28

She is the WOMAN in Gen. 3:15 15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel. The context here is the dawn of the fall of man.

The Prophets reassure the people of God of this promise
Isaiah 7:14 “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son and his name shall be called Emmanuel.” Context: Man has languished in his fall and is in search of God for a way out.

Jesus was born and the Jews did not recognize him because of his humble birth. So at the wedding at Cana, rather than cling to Mary as his mother, he draws our attention to her by calling her WOMAN. This is in no way demeaning, but a pointer to an indicator in God's plan of salvation.

We still don't get it, so just before he expire under the cross, he makes a last ditch at it, by presenting the WOMAN to the beloved apostle John 19:26-27. All the apostles had scattered upon his arrest, John the beloved happened to be the only one, keeping the apostolic witness of our salvation alive. He represented all believers. So Mary was presented to Mother his church, as the WOMAN in God's plan of salvation.

Even this last effort failed to stick, so on the Island of Pathmos, John the beloved is the only apostle privileged to peek into heaven; Revelation 11:19, John tells us that he sees the Ark of the Covenant. In the next verse, Revelation 12:1, he describes the Ark for us as “A woman clothed with the sun”, a term that could only mean the immaculately conceived Virgin Mary.

The rest of Revelation 12 talks about the enmity prefigured in Genesis 3:15 between the devil and THE WOMAN, and how satan can’t get to her. In Revelation 12:17, it says that we are her children if we follow the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus.

alexleo: GOD BLESS YOU MY BROTHER. What i ve seen in the bible is Jesus saying- whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that i will do. He never mentioned Mary's name and we cant add what Jesus did not add in that command. Our Lords prayer never suggested Mary's name either.

1 Timothy 2:1- “First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men.”

So asking for intercessory prayer is a very biblical thing to do, especially from a holy person like Mary (James 5:16).

So how can Mary hear thousands of prayers said to her daily from all over the world? Isn’t she just a human being and not God? Catholics believe we share in God’s divinity when we are in heaven. Why? Because of the words of Peter, in

2 Pet.1:3: "His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence 4: by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature."

We know that they witness for us, because of the words of St. Paul, in Hebrews 12:1: “Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses…” Witnesses testify to a judge on behalf of the accused, and Paul here is saying that the saints in heaven are our witnesses.

Asking these witnesses, especially Mary, to help us with our problems is a very good thing to do.

Some people make the mistake of thinking that praying to a saint equals worshiping that saint like he/she is a god, but “to pray” simply means “to ask”, not “to worship”.

bukatyne: Are you comparing the expression 'mother of my Lord' to 'mother of God'? How can Mary be the mother of God? Mary was the mother of Jesus the man and not Jesus the second person in the trinity

2 Sam 6:9 "And David was afraid of the LORD that day, and said, How shall the ark of the LORD come to me?"

This Scripture parallels

Luke 1:44 "And how is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" Note that Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit before she spoke these words out.

Remember that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, she bore him for 9 consecutive month in her womb, keeping him free from original sin, because she was FULL OF GRACE.

So if Jesus is “The Word Made Flesh”, then Mary is “The Ark Made Flesh”.

bukatyne: Why don't you 'honour' the Father of Jesus?

Honour is too small for God, so Catholics WORSHIP him!

Psalms 8:1 O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth! You have set your glory above the heavens.

naijadeyhia: CORRECTION!

THE BIBLE CONTAINS THE WORDS OF GOD AND NOT OF MAN. THE SCRIPTURES CONTAINED IN THE BIBLE WERE DIVINELY INSPIRED. THE WORD OF GOD IS CHRIST HIMSELF SO THIS IS THE RIGHT ORDER

CHRIST (THE WORD OF GOD), THE CHURCH

You Don't seem to get what St. Ola is saying,like any good Catholic he is following the chronology of our Salvation.
John 1:1-5, In the beginning was the Word... and the Word became flesh; Jesus Christ.

Christ died on the Cross and resurrected and overcame death, before his ascension into heaven, he instituted the Church upon Peter and gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, with the power to bind and loose anything, including the canon of written scripture, The Bible. Mathew 6:17-19.

So St. Ola was right after all; Jesus(the Word made flesh). The Church he founded . The Bible compiled by his Church.

naijadeyhia: Before expound on your answer i would now want you to answer this question;

WHO IS THE POPE AND WHAT IS HIS ROLE TO BELIEVERS? ALSO THE BELIEVERS WHO BELIEVE THE POPE HAS A ROLE OVER THEM WHAT ARE THESE BELIEVERS BELIEFS

To avoid information overload, I will prefer you to deal with the Biblical texts I have outlined in my previous submission. Like a gentleman, let us engage in this discussion in a manner that is civil. EMPHASIS IS ON LEARNING THE TRUTH. Cos this can save us.