Being busy brother, anyway glad you are around to represent Islam

Gwaine:

Sorry, the Bible is [size=13pt]not[/size] "according to someone", and it is [size=13pt]not[/size] "as clearly
stated on every chapter".

Well the copy of bible I have, which is the King James Version, from Book of Genesis to the Book of Revelation, it says at the begining and I quote "According to" at the begining of every chapter or book.

I dont know about your copy but yah know , we have a lot of bible versions out there, so I really don't know which one you use, maybe you could send me a copy for me to stash in my collection for future refrences and studies. Might help, to avoid confusion

Gwaine:


If that is a problem for you about trusting what it says,then those chapter headings that bear the names of people in the Qur'an should not be trusted, especially Sura 47 which bears the name of Muhammad.

Lady its not about trust, its about having a healthy discussion, You forcing the words into me is not acceptable in an intellectual forum like this. Nobody says the chapter bears name rather the chapters are based according to someone or something, there is no place it is said that it is according to GOD !!.

Gwaine:

Please. What do you mean by "what was the average age people got married back
then?" Are you trying to sanction the act of a "prophet" over 50 years old marrying
a child not quite in her first decade?

I don't get it: did Muhammad come with a religion of faith or a religion of logic?

It was a simple question, What was the age of marriage 1000 Years ago, Was it an acceptable practice?

All I can say is that all Islamic doctrines can be proven to be understandeable logically. Anything that cant be, and its based on faith only is questionable.

It's like when I say I have a faith in the devil, and there is no reasonable doubt that I can question that faith just because that faith requires me not to question it. Should that be an acceptable religion? You tell me.

But come to think of it,[b] some christians [/b]believe in miracles in the Church to strenghten their beleif, yet they call it "faith"? Isn't that contradictory? Or let me see, Its part of the whole package in achieving that faith

Faith or Logic, whatever you choose to call it, Islam is not about being impressive, rather its about being understood by an average human being, with an open mind.

This thread is still on?

gbade. x:

Because the Bible says so, IT means IT has put everything into perspective. I am Christian, and the Bible is God's Word and a guidline to how i'd live a my life the way God want me to live. so quoting from the Bible brings everything into perspective!!!!!

That actually draws a line between an intellectual discussion to an unintellectual discussion. Normally it would be more appropriate to add the following before any bible quotations.

"Whatever judgements or opinions I make in Life are based on what the bible has taught me, and hence all my opinions are unintellectual in nature, and because of that, it shouldnt be treated as one, because whatever opinions I make are based on doctrines that are not acceptable by everyone and therefore it does not constitute any standard outside the christian world"

Intellectual opinions reside outside the christian world because they are widely accepted opinions, example of such opinions which are based on fact are:-

1. Taking the life of another individual is wrong.
2. Telling lies is an inapproprite act.

This opinions are well proven, and the basis of that stance are widely accepted by any human being.

denobleman:

NB:Feel free to contact me for more delibrations via denobleman@fastermail.com.

You have a spiritual lab ? You got to be kidding me.

spikedcylinder:

I´m also sure there´s a medical term to qualify what you went through.

Like MAGUN otherwise known as THUNDERBOLT, you got to be kidding me

@David I would answer just a few because you tend to be very bias in your arguments, but I would really appreciate if you could answer my questions, then I promise you, I would tackle your unproven accusations one by one objectively.

davidylan:

To start with, i refuse to be a part of a religion that obtains most of it's vaidations from history!

When you say that, I think Christianity is more guilty of that, when it comes to validation; because the bible is "according to someone" as clearly stated on every chapter? besides I was just making an open suggestion, that was my first post in this thread, I haven't even made a stance yet on whether they have anything in common. Besides that I don't think Muslims really do preach anything in regards to common attributes, besides they are both prophets?

davidylan:

If the quran is truly the word of "god", are you always afraid to quote it instead prefering to hide under the umbrella of history?

Who said they were afraid of quoting? An intellectual discussion requires that both parties lay down facts based on what both of them would tend to understand not believe in. Saying the bible said, the Quran said, can be done when necessary but not to force a believe on someone?

davidylan:

Okay back to using history to prove the difference!
Muhammad - Married a 6yr old girl and slept with her at 9! In this modern age, he'd be behind bars as a pedophile and would be on the lifetime US sex offenders register!

Difference in what in particular?

Firstly, you have not provide a reference to any written historical book that has an accurate report that Muhammad(S.A.W) slept with his 9 year old wife, while she was 9.

Secondly what was the average age people got married, back then?

Thirdly since when did the American law became a widely accepted law of the past actions of historical occurrences?

fourthly I think I answered that in one of the threads in this section. I might browse through and paste it here.

And fifthly are you really here to argue based on faith or what people would understand as normal human beings based on simple God given logic without being unbiased in your argument?

Firstly before I respond to you, are you trying to get a clarification unto something or are you just out here to Bash Islam. That I honestly need to know.

He is evil is never the same as he is [b]of [/b]evil. As I said in my first post, the associative property stands. Dirty things are often associated with something not good, and something not good are often said to be [b]of [/b]evil. Am I correct?

The "of" there, is used to explain the associative relation to the property of that particular object.

davidylan:

@logical

Quite illogical analysis!
So when i use my left hand to clean my ass, it becomes evil right? But before then it is not evil?

Did I ever said that? I even gave an example on the issue of the right hand, that the purpose of the use of that particular part of the body can be something. The misuse against a religion doctrine is that which is [b]of [/b]evil. I guess you are a christian?

Is a penis evil? But when you use your penis to commit fornication, is that penis an object [b]of [/b]evil?

So maybe you need to re-analyse my logical explanation?

davidylan:

Ok now that we have toilet tissue, are our left hands now free from evil? Does it make hygeinic sense to "clean" your hands with sand considering the myriads of microbes in soil?

Well I suppose that is answered in my before entry? When you talk about microbes in soil? Are you telling me Water is free from microbes? Hahahaha.

Why are we using scriptures that are not widely accepted to support our theories, rather why not use historical linkages?

alheri:

Yes logical we get you, but you still haven't answered the question asked in the beginning, "are southpaws satan's or "evil" children by default? "

No, in Islam people use their hands for toilet use etc and therefore eating with the same hands, is frowned up, hence the message to dissuade them from using the same hand to eat. Don't even go on to talk about tissues, they had grass straws rather those days, and back then, in the Islamic civilization, they were encouraged to use water and their left hands and wash their left hands thereafter, preferrably with sand and water. Its just a cleaning methodology.

Its not a contradiction because there is no where else you would have another version that says otherwise. Rather I would say the use of Satan does not really mean the object itself, it might also be one of the attributes that make up that object in question.

This message was directed towards using a particular part of your body to do something, not the whole part of the body which makes up that particular entity.

Besides even in cultures like Yoruba, you are dissuaded from eating with the left hand. Have you wondered why?

In Islam the left hand is not evil !! The use of it for a particular thing is what is of evil, just like the right hands, which can also be of evil, if it is used for something inappropriate, e.g fingering a lady who is not your wife.

As usual there is always hidden intention to bring up such issue but nevertheless, in when we tend to look in the context of the use of Satan in the practice of the prophet, otherwise known as Sunnah in Islam, which is not compulsory but encouraged, we have to be very objective in reasoning in the sense of applying the message with sense.

Satan is not known to eat, rather the word Satan sometimes are used to describe "evil", "bad", "something not appropriate","wrong doings" etc, and hence a very good sunnah of relation would be the practice of the prophet which he encourages the cutting of the nails, in which he says Satan resides under the nails.

Now in regards to the practice, using the word Satan here does not necessarily mean Satan as the "Evil Identity", rather it is used to describe the type of people that are not clean, because in Islam Cleanliness is half of faith. So the associative property of that person who is unclean is that Satan used in the concept.

If someone says someone is the child of Satan, does it mean that Satan is actually the biological father of that person? No it does not mean so, rather it is the particular character of that person that has relativitity to how that collection of people cohibiting that particular behavior are associated with an unacceptable wrong doing which indicates the so called property of Satan but not necessarily Satan himself or herself.

This shows that you do not understand Shariah at all. I would write a comprehensive article on it in a new thread, title, Shariah in reality. Watch out.

@Reverend
Yes.
But the question is , Do you understand Shariah Law? If not I would quickly cover the basics and I am sure you wouldnt mind the law.

@Reverend you are still yet to provide the proof in regards to the Qurannic conflicts.

Well have you read any book on shariah before, because if you have taken you time to actually read about shariah the question wouldnt arise.

hmm, anyway I hope you digest the following. I wont futher indulge myself.

“The believing men and women are each other’s protectors; they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong.” While, “the hypocrite men and women are each other’s protectors, they enjoin what is wrong and forbid what is right.” (9:71)

Dear Ajisafe,
I dont know what to say, but you have gone beyound the horizons of what is expected from a true believer. I encourage that you listen to ajia23 and apologise as expected. Just a piece of advise . thank you.

Guys whats all this? If you dont have any contribution or critisism in relation a post, desist from posting. That would be really appreciated. Stick to the thread.Thank you.

TayoD:

If it is a sin not to get education in Islam, was Muhammad a sinner then?

Define what you mean by education? Because from what I know he was just unlettered, which does not imply lack of education or knowledge?

They claim there are not afraid, Fear does not exist and yet

HAHAHAH Technology is now a threat to the Christian faith or the key to armageddon?

The question is :-

1. How many of you think America is doing the right thing?
2. Or America has the right to question another person's interest in Nuclear power?
3. Or America has the right to way possible war options on Iran even with world treaties such as the genieva ones?

Its as simple as that, Bush is evil and Ahmadinejad could be evil too. Making a public statement of wiping a country out of the map, is a threat , True, but it is only evil when perpetuated!!

If America is doing this to ensure peace in the whole world, lets call them "World Police", They should first solve the Israel->Palestian problem, by telling Israel to give Palestian its space in the Gaza strip and then tell North Korea to cut down its weapons or face war, and then thereafter Iran can follow.

That is what we call fairness, don't you think? Or you don't agree? Let us know why.

Are you supporting Bush why?

I don't think Bush and Ahmadinejad have the right to say who should possess a weapon and who should not.

Did Iraq have the weapons of Mass Destruction as proclaimed, after it was evaded? How many people now die everyday in Iraq in comparison to during Sadam's regime?

Children, women are dying everyday in Iraq, but we choose not too see that now, and all we are shouting is Iran should be the next to be attacked? Or wait a minute isnt that what some of you guys are insinuating?

Is Iraq likely to be a peaceful nation soon? Its really sad the way some of us reason.

So who is really the Satan in disguise?

@ Reverend

I would only take your words for it and give you replies to defend the Quran, if you fullfill your promise to provide me the reference to your first accusations of conflicting verses of the Quran. Only then would I take what you have said seriously. You are just trying very hard, arent you?

Just supply us with the reference or maybe you might want to admit that you made it up, and we move on.

Are you honest with your accusations and proofs? Prove it by providing us the Quranic Reference of your first accusations otherwise refrain from futher baseless theories that doesnt make sense at all.

A simple example to your baseless accusations was regarding Galen "Galen didnt write any book on embryology. Galen was the originator of the experimental method in medical investigation, and throughout his life dissected animals in his quest to understand how the body functions. He also recommended that other doctors practice dissection as a means of discovery as well as to improve surgical skills. Galen's most important discovery was that arteries carry blood, not air. Galen's most lasting technique, one that survived his discreditation during the Renaissance, is the taking of the pulse - still done by doctors to this day.

If you have a refrence to a book written by Galen on embryology, provide it here, please

My Proof: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/historic_figures/galen_claudius.shtml

So I think thats more of surgery?

So before we carry on, try to proof your other accusations without refrencing critic sites? I want historical sites with no critisism as proof with the content that was copied. Would really appreciate it. But firstly provide the Quraan Conflict verses.

[b]And by the way, good job copy and pasting from another forum: [/b]http://www.whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4738&PN=1

The verses show clearly that Hell is something to be feared. It doesnt have to say, Believers fear hell. But with this verses it says, you are forwarned.

Key Facts About Eternity

(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).

(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).

Key Passages About Hell

(1) Hell was designed originally for Satan and his demons (Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:.

(3) Hell is conscious torment.

* Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
* Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
* Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

* Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
* Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
* Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

Erroneous Views of Hell

(1) The second chance view – After death there is still a way to escape hell.

Answer: “It is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

(2) Universalism – All are eternally saved.

Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36).

(3) Annihilationism – Hell means a person dies like an animal – ceases to exist.

Answer: It denies the resurrection of the unsaved (John 5:28, etc. – see above). It denies conscious torment (see above).
Objections to the Biblical View of Hell

(1) A loving God would not send people to a horrible hell.

Response: God is just (Romans 2:11).

* God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
* Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
* Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).

(2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin.

Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).

* Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).
* Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
* What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).

I just asked a pastor friend. He claims it is a contradiction for a christian not to fear HELL. I rest my case.

You might love God for his grace in this world, but that does not outwith the main purpose.

You might love God for making your dealings in this world a worthwhile. Answering your prayers etc.

But that does not necessarily mean you don't fear God !!!

Are you telling me you cant love and fear someone at the same time? And come to think of it, I never said I dont love God? So what is all the insinuations?

I just wish people can be a little bit honest with their real feelings not just too suit a discussion. You are afraid of hell. I am very very sure. I can bet my life on it.

hmm and what you just said is logical or am I missing something? please rephrase and stop quoting the bible please, we are having an intellectual discussion here.

You belief in something for a reason. Always no matter what the consequence of not believing might be.

Its like telling me that you wont walk in front of a moving car because you love the person driving the car because he happens to be someone you know. And that is the basis of your belief. Honesty friends. Honesty.

Allah did not say he will fill hell with men and Jinn. He said he who does not believe in him, serve him and do good works would face the consequences of his choice which would be the wrath in the grave and hell thereafter.

Its very simple and understandeable.

Acknowledging a possible wrath does not mean, you think about it every single second of your life. But the point is, it is there for a reason, and thus you are supposed to seek refuge from its wrath by believing in him. I perfectly see it that way.

If you don't believe in him, what would happen?

I have fear for God in my heart, and I stand by that till the day I die

@TayoD you are saying what exactly? I didnt get that post?

You know what, I got an idea, you are not scared of hell right? Pray to God that you dont want any rewards for your belief, and its all out of love and you just want to die and turn to ashes. That would show love.

Hahahaha so you are saying that you are not scared of hell? And when you preach to others you don't mention hell Honesty please

So from what you are saying, can I assume that hell doesnt exist? And humans are free from the punishment for not believing? Since its all love, there is no strings, its your choice

I would really prefer if I wont account for anything, When I die, thats it.

Divine laws represent guidance for humankind in all walks of life. They define right and wrong for them and offer human beings a complete system governing all of their affairs. The Creator alone knows best what is beneficial for His creation and what is not. The divine laws command and prohibit various acts and substances to protect the human spirit, the human body and human society from harm. In order for human beings to fulfill their potential by living righteous lives, they need to worship God through obedience to His commandments.


Someone died for me so I worship God is not emotional? I worship God because I don't want to face the consequence of disobeying him is that which is emotional and not logical rather? Strange I must say

This is the verse.

I have created the jinn and humankind only that they might serve Me.
Qur'an 51.56

Yeah its logical, because I am afraid of hell, which justifies my reason for belief Atleast its better than been emotional? Dont you think?

100% of God believers are afraid of hell? Well if you are not THen maybe i can work on that statistic.