₦airaland Forum

Xavier5:
If you even took your time to read my write-ups, I made it clear that despite the existence of the universal intrinsic knowing of the intrinsic value of human life, some people still ignore, deny and suppress it for ideological or personal malevolent ambition reasons. But nevertheless, despite the ignoring or denying of it, the intrinsic knowing exist in every one.

Some people deny the intrinsic knowing to carry out racism, sexism, condescension, genocide, jihad, rape, child sacrifice, killing of twins, human sacrifice, and what have you. This is the reason why the perpetrators of these acts always first of all, dehumanize their victims or craft ridiculous philosophies to justify their conscience.

But here's the thing, irrespective of personal opinions, what is actually or inherently true or right is actually or inherently true or right. Some people may deny or reject the universal intrinsic knowing of the intrinsic value of human life for ideological or malevolent reasons, but reality is reality, it always has a way of bringing us back to the truth. It always has a way get us out from our slumber or blindness. That's the beautiful thing about reality.

I once didn't use to believe in the universal intrinsic knowing of the intrinsic value of human life until reality did its job at bring me into the reality of it.




The fetus has no right to use another person's body because it was the one that put itself there right? Because it was the one that collaborated with nature to put itself there. It's like saying a child shouldn't be taken care of by his or her father, despite the child not having a say in the natural process of conception and reproduction, since he or she has no right over his or her father's money. You see how ridiculous and weird your logic is.

So a human life should be killed simply because it obeyed a natural law which it had no hand in creating? Wow... just wow 😂😂😂👏👏👏. And this one will open his mouth to condemn Nazis, racists, sexists, jihadist, twin killers in ancient Calabar, genocide proponents etc after crafting the most ridiculous reason I've ever heard to justify killing a human life. Well done sir... 🙌🙌🙌




The examples you are citing fall under two categories;

1.) Killing to save life
2.) Killing to punish a crime.

So how does killing a fetus fall under the above. What crime did the fetus commit that warrant it being killed? If the fetus is not a threat to the woman's life, why kill it?

As for situations where the woman's life is being threatened, that's a justifiable reason for abortion, and it falls into the above categories. The life of the woman is at risk here and must be put into consideration... except the woman says otherwise. This is the critical case exemptions I talked about. Here's the catch, the critical cases only occur in few scenarios.



Making assumptions of the critical case without knowing what I meant by it or them



#Xavier

We are having a simple discussion and you are getting heated and insulting. I give people grace to calm the Bleep down cos when I unleash they start crying crocodile tears. If you want to continue discussing with me, you better pocket the insults.

basilico:
https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2024/10/07/toyota-joins-ford-and-other-major-companies-scaling-back-dei-commitments-n3795529

Diversion.
Normalizing the abnormal is taking a hit.

Your usual MO right.

bemeruca:
The Nazis didn't see it as murder?
When you take God out of the equation, you take objective morality out of the question.

News flash, if the nazis did not see it as murder, the rest of the world wouldn't see it like that. But there is this thing called objective morality(universal truth that transcends human subjectivity), which is why people are willing to fight and die to stop Germany.
What is even funny, is that people were sent to jail in Germany for murder before the killing of the Jews started. So how can they not see it as murder?


I don't know a parent who teaches his kids at 3 4 or 5 years not to kill. That is ingrained in us. Children in the womb of their parents knew something is out there that can kill them as well.

Define murder

bemeruca:
They don't. They don't do it as a display or show or parade. When they are with less cloths it is at the pool or beach.

They dance exotic dance in front of adults in a strip club while the lgbt do it in front of kids in their schools.

They totally do. Ever heard of Mardi Gras or of the Brazilian Parades?

You don't have to lie, where are LGBTQ folk dancing exotic dances in front of kids at school.

basilico:
From your first capital letter to the full stop.

You don't understand English so I don't blame you.

bemeruca:
What he means is them walking naked in public and show all sorts of explicit behaviors in front of kids with impunity.

Heterosexual people do that that too, so?

wirinet:
As a liberal, I don't believe in and certainly won't advocate for LGBTQ. Having said that, I believe sex is a private affair and what two consenting adults do in the privacy of the bedroom is non of my business. My problem is when they do it in public.

Wait you think LGBTQ people are having sex in public?

basilico:
Dehumanizing a foetus. If not for abortion maybe someone would have obtained a Cancer Abortion should not be about feelings, I hate that " thing" so I need my medical insurance to pay for my hospital bill to get rid of it.

Point out where I dehumanized a fetus.

dinomcjohn:
Who is the greatest person that walked the face of the earth? Who is the sweetest person to have lived on earth? Who is the sweetest friend to have?

About 2,000 years ago, a great prophecy was fulfilled. A baby was conceived in a most miraculous way and born of a virgin. This baby grew to be the most loving person to have ever lived. He went about doing good: feeding the hungry, healing the sick, raising the dead, calming the storm, bringing joy and salvation to the oppressed and the lost. In summary, all he did was show the people the everlasting love of the Father, God the Almighty, the Creator of the universe. Who am I talking about?

This man never raised the sword against his enemies. His lasting philosophy: Love the LORD the God with all your heart. Love your neighbour as yourself. Even when his enemies persecuted him, he said “Father, forgive them for they know not what they do”. He was gentle, loving, compassionate. He was powerful. His name has been exalted above all other names. At the mention of his name, all knees will bow and all tongues confess.

Who is this man?

If you have him as your closest friend, joy everlasting is yours. All your worries are conquered forever. He will guide you on the right part and guard you from evil. His promises will never fail. He has the power to save and deliver and give you everlasting life.
He came to the world and brought the glory of God to us. He was the humblest person. He never accepted the praise of men. He gave all glory to God.

Who is this man? He is not just a man. He is God with us.

JESUS. JESUS CHRIST the Son of the Living God.

Come to Jesus and see the beauty and glory of God. Your life will never be the same. You will see the glory of God and live a most beautiful life. Billions of people have testified about their encounters with Jesus. It is true. Come near to Jesus and your life will see the perfection of God.

I pick Michael Faraday. He is the one who made it possible for you and I to communicate in this fashion and to have most of the modern gadgets we use.

Xavier5:
Thank God you talked about liberty and equality, which are fundamental liberal values. But the question is, what are the value of equality and liberty based on? If human life does not intrinsically has value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, viability or stage of development, then what's the significance of the whole idea of liberty and equality?

[b]And talking again about human value, you didn't read my post, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up Elon Musk. Because I clearly explained what I meant by human value, which is the belief that all human life have value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, socio-economic status, viability and stage of development, but because they're humans. And I went further to explain why, which is where the statement of universal intrinsic knowing of the value of a human life came in, which ironically you dismissed as being insignificant to the discuss, which to me is funny as hell 😁.




So when Jews were being slaughtered because Nazi Germany sanctioned it, it wasn't murder or genocide right? Funny how we redefine words to suit our narratives.

The real question is if there was some universally known intrinsic human value why would the Nazis have killed so many Jews. Because there isn't is why. All value is subjective. And to answer your particular question, the Nazis didn't see it as murder, the Allies did, once again showing that it is a legal matter that expresses the subjectivity.

Is capital punishment murder? Is killing of enemy combatants in battle murder? Is killing in self defense murder? In killing someone accidentally murder? The answer to all these questions is NO because murder has a narrow definition that does not encompass all forms of killing.

You see why I said you should ask questions, rather than making conclusions. Do you know what the critical cases are, and why I made them exemptions?

What conclusion did I make?

On what basis are you saying a fetus isn't a human life and hence has not the right to live except some superior power say so? So in your view, certain lives are superior to others, and these superior lives has the right to eliminate the inferior life if it helps their cause?

Point out where I said the fetus isn't a human life and hence has not the right to live except some superior power say so.

The fetus does not have the right to use the resources and body of another human without permission. Nobody has that right.

Nope in my view I subjectively value some humans over others, just like you value your mother's life over mine. And when it comes to choosing you will choose according to your subjective value.

Also point out where I used the words superior and inferior.

And I come back to the core of the issue, if all human life has value irrespective of gender, race, intelligence, viability, socio-economic status, or stage of development, but because they are human life, and if a fetus is a human life, doesn't that fetus has the right to live? Which now brings us to the question, is a fetus a human life? What makes an organism human? And does the fetus meet that requirements? These are the questions we should be asking.

If truly the fetus is a human life, then what should we do? Jump on the boat of abortion or pro choice? Or the government and society should create systems that ensure, one, the woman doesn't have to be a mother if she doesn't want to; two, the menance of unwanted pregnancy is being tackled, and three, the babies life is being preserved? Why do we think we can't create such system where all three issues are being addressed?

And guess what, the latter is the part I take, I strongly believe we should create such systems, rather than just jump on the boat of abortion or pro choice. What systems, am I talking about? Very simple, ask me and i will explain.

Look, I'm enormously pro right to one's body, but when a human life is being hurt, then I strongly believe that we have to take a step backward, and evaluate things.

And so you know, the critical cases I mentioned are based on life... life of the woman, and not bodily liberty. But as I said, ask questions on what I mean by critical cases, and not make assumptions.

Like I already said the fetus has no right to use the woman's body without consent. It's her life the fetus has to depend on, it literally has to live off of her blood. Do you think somebody should have the right to just come take your blood without your consent?

And my response to these is, I question the liberalism that negate or sideline human value all in the name of bodily liberty. So much for human rights and equality 🙄

As I've said, and will continue to say, if truly the fetus is a human life, what should we do, jump on the boat of pro abortion or pro choice? Or the government and society should create systems, systems that ensures;

* The woman doesn't have to be a mother if she doesn't want to.
* The menance of unwanted pregnancy is being tackled.
* The babies life is being preserved.

Why do we think we can't create such systems? What systems am I talking about? As I initially said, ask questions, and I will explain.

As for the complexities of abortion, I'm open to discussing on them, if you ask.


#Xavier

If you can find a way to preserve a fetus that is between 0-5 months old outside of the woman's body that would be great. Till then the owner of the body should have the right to agree or disagree with growing something inside her.

Geovanni412:
Are you an atheist or an agnostic?

Kindly explain.

I'm an igtheist. I think the question what is a god cannot be coherently answered therefore the question of whether one exists is meaningless. It is like saying I don't know what shokolokobamboshe is but I know it exists. That would be absurd.

budaatum:
I know Ijebos said so, my Lord. And I want to keep apologising to him for seeming to challenge his saying so.

Ahh Ok.

Image123:
You're straddling here. Useless means having or being of no use. You can't claim something is useless and still insist that it's been widely used. The reality is that the Bible is and can be widely used to encourage family planning. i can practically stand from my congregation and open passage after passage, exhorting people to plan their families and use contraceptives and other inventions that are not sinful or unhealthy. That someone else picks up a knife to kill and fight doesn't make knives useless to me.

A thing can be useless in one way and useful in a different way. A spoon is useless as telecommunications device but useful for eating and other culinary related uses.

The Bible is useless as an instruction manual for knowing whether to use a condom or an IUD or a morning after pill or a hormonal patch. It can't because it's a bunch of ancient tales.

Ebonygeek:
Obi nestled one side of his head deeply into his pillow and pressed another pillow over his exposed ear, but yet, he could still hear the morning preacher.

“Repent! The kingdom of God is at hand. Turn away from your evil ways,” the man shouted at the top of his lungs.

It was as if all the evangelists in town had held a meeting and had decided to take turns preaching on his street every morning. Yesterday, the voice was female, and today, it was a guy.

With an angry grunt, Obi snatched up his phone from his bedside stool and checked the time.

“It's 5 freaking a.m.! Why the hell is this guy disturbing my sleep?” he demanded, although there was no one in his bedroom to answer him.

He had told the girl he picked up the previous night to leave immediately they had finished. He hated the idea of letting hookup girls spend the night with him. They were dirty and didn't deserve the privilege of cuddling with a man like him. He was a prize, after all, and only good girls deserved that honour.

“All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Jesus died so that you could get the chance to enter Heaven. Don't damn your soul to hell because you want to enjoy life,” the man went on.

Obi couldn't take it anymore. He could hardly breathe. Why were these people always preaching about doom? Jesus is coming soon, Jesus is coming soon. During his ancestors' time, they were also preaching that Jesus was coming soon. Yet, here he was in 2024 and Jesus still hadn't shown up. Enough already!

With that, he shot up from his bed and ran into his bathroom. He spotted some water in a bucket and picked it up. Then he unlocked his apartment door and rushed outside. Looking around, he spotted the preacher a few yards away from his building and walked towards him. Without a word, he emptied the bucket on the man's head.

The preacher was shocked into silence. He looked at the figure who had poured cold liquid on him. Although it wasn't daybreak yet, the streetlights illuminated the street. Standing before him was a young man who couldn't have been more than 29 years old. The man had an angry look on his face.

“Why the hell are you disturbing this neighbourhood? Don't you know people are trying to sleep? Unlike you, some of us actually work hard for a living, instead of going around, looking for people to bless us. Leave this place and don't ever come back, or else I'll release my dogs on you,” the man shouted.

With that, he turned around and walked back to his house. The preacher stood there shivering. He started to feel bad, but then remembered: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. There was no reason to feel bad. All his sacrifices would be worth it in the end.

Bending down, the preacher picked up the Bible he had dropped when the man assaulted him and walked to the next street to continue his assignment.

***Two weeks later***

Obi was seated on his parlor sofa, and although the AC was on, he could feel beads of sweat rolling down his face and back. He was finding it difficult to process the news he had just received.

The sales boy in charge of selling his goods at Rumuokoro Market had called him saying a fire had broken out last night from the transformer near his boutique. His shop was the only one that got burnt. Four million naira worth of imported men's clothes and shoes were gone just like that.

Obi couldn't think clearly. How come his shop was the only one that caught fire? Why would this kind of thing happen to him? He had just stocked up his shop and his account balance had taken a huge hit. How would he recover from this?

Just then, his phone started ringing again. He looked at the caller ID. It was Desmond, his forex account manager.

“Good morning Sir,” Desmond said.

“Yea, Good morning. What's up?” Obi replied, finally finding his voice.

“Sir, I don't know how to say this. I'm so sorry Sir. I'm so so sorry. I don't even know what happened. I was waiting for the right moment to sell, and everything just crashed suddenly. All the money's gone.”

“Jesus!” Obi exclaimed, “my money. My money o. I'm finished. What do you mean Desmond? I thought you said you were a professional trader. What happened to my money Desmond?” The line went dead.

Obi was shaking now and his body was moist with sweat. God why? Why is this happening to me? What did I do wrong?

“I thought you don't believe in God,” he heard a voice say. He turned around sharply, but there was no one there.

“Who said that?” he demanded.

“…Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.”

Obi turned around again in trepidation. “I said who is there?! Who are you?!”

“I am the Lord. And mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: I will recompense thee according to thy ways and thine abominations that are in the midst of thee; and ye shall know that I am the Lord that smiteth,” the voice said.

“No…n-no. Please. I'm sorry. I didn't know. Please have mercy. I didn't know.”

Suddenly claustrophobic and dizzy with fear, Obi ran out of his house, and into the street.

“Please, no. Please, have mercy, I didn't know,” he kept screaming and looking around desperately. Unable to bear the heat, he ripped his shirt from his body. Who could help him? What was he going to do? Was this the end?

***
The two old men playing draught under the mango tree on Jeffa Street watched in astonishment as a young man suddenly ran out of his house, screaming loudly, and taking off his clothes.

“Please have mercy,” the man screamed.

They looked at the building he had exited, expecting to see his attacker, but there was no one there. The man kept screaming for a few minutes, then ran down the street, and went out of sight.

“All dis yahoo boys sef,” one of the men said, “dey go always do things wey go finally make them kolo.”

“Every day for the thief and one day for the owner. Abeg play jor,” the other one replied.

LoLz. These are the kinds of stories people tell themselves to to comfort their superstitious fears. No different from our forebears who thought the sacred groves were protected by the gods only for them to be decimated by foreigners.

budaatum:
Xavier5, you see the above from my Lord up there?

It's what you've said too below.



"Belief" is subjective, and that's the reason all we subjects don't all believe the same things.

BTW are you the one who said Xavier5 isn't a liberal? Do you know who said so?

Xavier5:
Alright, but tell that to the universal intrinsic knowing of the intrinsic value of human life. As I earlier said, people may choose to deny it for personal or ideological reasons, but reality will always be reality. And this is the reality, everybody knows deep down that human life has intrinsic value. And the beautiful thing is, reality always present situations where humans will have no choice but to acknowledge. We can choose to deny it, but reality always has a way of giving us the middle finger.

In addition, your non acknowledgement of the intrinsic human value is the reason why we don't share the same definition of liberalism. And as I said, if that's the dominant definition of liberalism here, then I can't associate with such. I prefer to be an independent in this thread.



All value is subjective in what context? In the context of personal opinion? Or in the context that some values are inherently true and right?



If there's no intrinsic human value, why does it matter if we are all humans? What's so unique in being human? What's the difference between humans and animals? Why do we hurt animals all in the name of surviving? And why does me hurting another fellow human to survive or achieve my personal desires wrong?



#Xavier

But I said you shouldn't respond as you'll have the opportunity to do so when I respond to your other post.

Xavier5:
Base on the fact that you're a stranger to me, and I have a very close relationship with my mother, against my wish of not wanting to choose anyone, I will choose my mother. She's functionally valuable to me than you in this context. But of course, if an opportunity arises for escape or situational neutralization, then definitely, I'm going that route with us all.

But functional human value isn't what I'm talking about here, but rather intrinsic human value. Functional human value is based on the contribution of a person to the society or to the life of an individual.

Intrinsic human value is the belief that human life inherently posseses value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, viability, socio-economic status, and stage of development, because it is a human life.

I think it's very vital we take note of the difference between functional human value and intrinsic human value. I think you're conflicting the two.

So what connection does the question have with the discussion at hand?



#Xavier

Ok good. Thanks for clarifying.

I don't think anything has intrinsic value. All value is subjective which is the reason value cannot be the bedrock for equity. The principle of equity is baseline enough by itself because we are all humans with the same basic needs.

I will tie all this into my response to your previous post, no need for you to respond to this post. Thanks.

Xavier5:
Me trying to understand what this have to do with the discussion at hand? 🤨🤔🙄

If we want to discuss on abortion, and my reasons for my pro life view, then let's discuss. But if we are playing a game of asking irrelevant questions, them suit yourself 🚶🚶🚶.



#Xavier

I promise it's very relevant. Please answer.

Image123:
But you insist that it is prone to being used. Can something be useless and still be used?

It is used to perpetuate ignorance is not the same as being useful.

Image123:
i don't understand you again. You were trying to prove that the Bible is useless in these things or not reliable?

I think I have shown it is useless and unnecessary in these matters.

Xavier5:
Thank God you talked about liberty and equality, which are fundamental liberal values. But the question is, what are the value of equality and liberty based on? If human life does not intrinsically has value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, viability or stage of development, then what's the significance of the whole idea of liberty and equality?

[b]And talking again about human value, you didn't read my post, otherwise you wouldn't have brought up Elon Musk. Because I clearly explained what I meant by human value, which is the belief that all human life have value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, socio-economic status, viability and stage of development, but because they're humans. And I went further to explain why, which is where the statement of universal intrinsic knowing of the value of a human life came in, which ironically you dismissed as being insignificant to the discuss, which to me is funny as hell 😁.




So when Jews were being slaughtered because Nazi Germany sanctioned it, it wasn't murder or genocide right? Funny how we redefine words to suit our narratives.



You see why I said you should ask questions, rather than making conclusions. Do you know what the critical cases are, and why I made them exemptions?



On what basis are you saying a fetus isn't a human life and hence has not the right to live except some superior power say so? So in your view, certain lives are superior to others, and these superior lives has the right to eliminate the inferior life if it helps their cause?

And I come back to the core of the issue, if all human life has value irrespective of gender, race, intelligence, viability, socio-economic status, or stage of development, but because they are human life, and if a fetus is a human life, doesn't that fetus has the right to live? Which now brings us to the question, is a fetus a human life? What makes an organism human? And does the fetus meet that requirements? These are the questions we should be asking.

If truly the fetus is a human life, then what should we do? Jump on the boat of abortion or pro choice? Or the government and society should create systems that ensure, one, the woman doesn't have to be a mother if she doesn't want to; two, the menance of unwanted pregnancy is being tackled, and three, the babies life is being preserved? Why do we think we can't create such system where all three issues are being addressed?

And guess what, the latter is the part I take, I strongly believe we should create such systems, rather than just jump on the boat of abortion or pro choice. What systems, am I talking about? Very simple, ask me and i will explain.

Look, I'm enormously pro right to one's body, but when a human life is being hurt, then I strongly believe that we have to take a step backward, and evaluate things.

And so you know, the critical cases I mentioned are based on life... life of the woman, and not bodily liberty. But as I said, ask questions on what I mean by critical cases, and not make assumptions.




And my response to these is, I question the liberalism that negate or sideline human value all in the name of bodily liberty. So much for human rights and equality 🙄

As I've said, and will continue to say, if truly the fetus is a human life, what should we do, jump on the boat of pro abortion or pro choice? Or the government and society should create systems, systems that ensures;

* The woman doesn't have to be a mother if she doesn't want to.
* The menance of unwanted pregnancy is being tackled.
* The babies life is being preserved.

Why do we think we can't create such systems? What systems am I talking about? As I initially said, ask questions, and I will explain.

As for the complexities of abortion, I'm open to discussing on them, if you ask.


#Xavier

Before we go on, answer this scenario. Your mother, yourself and myself were captured by hoodlums. They hold guns to all three of our heads and ask you to choose between them killing your mother or them killing me. Who would you choose? Please just a straight forward answer, no meandering.

Image123:
The Catholic belief or practice against condom is not based on the Bible. There is no such word there, their belief in this is not Bible based. We have planning in the Bible, and the Catholics believe in some sort of family planning. Anything can be used to perpetuate ignorance.

It is based on the Bible, specifically their own interpretation of the Onan story.

Not everything but more importantly ancient superstitious tales are more prone to being used.

Xavier5:
It's going to be a lengthy, sophisticated discussion. So brace yourself 😎. To answer your question, I have to start from the very beginning.

Liberalism as an ideology is fundamentally based on the value of human value, which is the belief that all human life has value irrespective of their race, gender, intelligence, viability, or stage of development, and as such should be respected, cared for, loved and protected.

Your definition of Liberalism already shows a fundamental disconnect from the ideology. I'm trying not to No True Scotsman you but I think you need to reexamine your idea of what Liberalism means.

Liberalism is based on equity and freedom, the idea that all men should have the same access and the same freedoms a society provides. Take a mighty note, equity and value are not the same. Let me illustrate: when you go to a toll booth, the toll for all cars is the same. That is equity. When you go to a car dealer, not all cars have the same price, in fact cars of the same model may have different prices. That is value.

Liberalism does not argue that all men have same value rather it says all men should have access. That toll booth in my example, operating under a liberal system would mean give access to a 2024 Lexus the same way you give access to 1970 Volkswagen Beetle. Your worth should not determine your access under a liberal operation.

This value is what other liberal values such as liberty, human rights, equality etc are built on. The value of human value is the very foundation of liberalism, without which other liberal values are useless, due to the absence of a rational root or effective foundation.

So no, human value is not the basis for Liberalism. Or else Elon Musk should have more rights than you.

Equity and freedom are the basis for Liberalism, it is from these 2 bedrock that all liberal ideas are built upon. Elon Musk despite how rich he is should not have more access to the toll booth than I do. His vote should not count more than mine.

How do we know about this fundamental value? Simple, there's a universal intrinsic knowing in humans of the value of human life simply because it's a human.

Now, why such knowing? What is it based on? Secularly, we can't give provide an answer, but if we involve religion, we get to know the concept in which such intrinsic knowing is based on, which is, human life is valuable because it's the image of God.

But keeping religion aside, the universal intrinsic knowing is the testament of the value of a human life, even though, secularly we may not be able to to explain what it is based on, but nevertheless, we know and perceive it. Yes, sometimes, we deny or suppress such knowing, but reality is reality, whether we choose to deny it or not.

One of the principle of universality is; a universal intrinsic belief or knowing is a testament of the natural establishment of that concept, that is, the concept is beyond humans, wasn't created by humans, but was created for humans. It existed independent of humans, created by a system, irrespective of who or what is it is, that is beyond and above humans, but for humans. Examples of such universal concepts are;

* Universal or objective morality
* Universal desire for love
* Universal knowing of the value of human life
* Universal desire for knowledge and purpose
* Universal intrinsic God desire and awareness
* Universal desire for survival and personal evolution

And a few others.

I will discard all this because I don't think it is essential to the discussion based on the foregoing.

So here is what it all boils down to, if a human life has value irrespective of race, gender, intelligence, viability, or stage of development, but because it is a human life, and if a fetus is a human life, then abortion is a crime against a human life, in other words, murder... except of course in the CRITICAL CASES.

Murder is a legal term meaning unsanctioned killing. In the cases where abortion is legal then the killing is not unsanctioned therefore it is not murder.

I guess your real grouse is with killing but then you acknowledge that in what you call critical cases you have no problem with the killing. This is where Liberalism rears it's beautiful head. On what basis are you limiting one person's freedom to do the same thing you sanction for a different person? Basically then unless you have good reason to say no then every woman should have the right to terminate a pregnancy that has not reached a certain stage in the development of a fetus. Then after that stage we begin to examine on a case by case basis whether termination is an acceptable procedure.

So the question is, is a fetus a human life? What makes an entity or organism a human? Does a fetus meets this requirement for a human life? And what are the critical cases I mentioned? I want you to ask these questions... for the purpose of continuity. I want this to be a discussion, so I won't be saying everything at a blow, but rather based on your questions.

To me these are not the issues for a liberal. The issue is should any woman have the same access and freedom as any other woman to terminate what is growing inside her own body. Should a woman have bodily autonomy to determine if she wants something to grow within her own body or not. I think you should answer these questions for the discussion to continue.

Let's get this clear, abortion is a complex system that involves;

* Human life
* Menance of unwanted pregnancy
* Bodily liberty
* Health
* Financial issues
* Emotional and mental issues

I'm very well ready to talk about them one after the other... if you ask the questions.



#Xavier

Anybody who truly considers the question will know it's not simple which is why a liberal should be more open minded to consider very strongly the ramifications of limiting freedoms wily nily.

budaatum:
My Lord I hope you form a thread with Xavier5's response so it can properly be considered. Preferably in the religious section where it rightly belongs!

His "universal objectivity" is making me cringe.

His definition of Liberalism already had me shaking my head so vigorously it was about to pop off my neck.

Image123:
i initially said "Correct me if i am wrong, but i don't know of any mainstream christian denomination that is against family planning."
The Catholic church is one mainstream denomination and it is not against family planning, but against condoms. They also teach some other things that many Christians don't agree with. They are not the standard, the Bible is. At least, it appears all the churches are agreed on one form of family planning or the other.

Never said they were against family planning. I said the Catholic Church is against condom use. Doesn't matter if they are the standard or not, the fact remains more than half of all Christians worldwide are Catholics. Which means possibly more than half of all Christians are against condom use. Which again furthers my point that belief in ancient storybooks is used to perpetuate ignorance.

obonujoker:
Christians and Believers work by Faith, and not be sight in things of God.

Buying land is not a thing that is so important to God.

The reason for Miracles is to draw people to salvation through Jesus Christ, does land banking or buying draw people to salvation?

On what does your church building stand on, air?

Image123:
i've been around churches and listened to several messages for decades, i've also read the Bible thoroughly a couple of times. And i make bold to say that there are no restrictions on family planning in the Bible, nor have i ever heard it. i don't think Deeper Life has anything against condoms. i personally know a trusted Deeper Life leader that sells condoms even. i am sure she wouldn't dare if her church was against it. i have also listened to pastor Kumuyi a healthy lot, i have not heard such. i can't vouch for MFM though, they tie all kinds of things to the spirit world and have a lot of fight with virtually everything. It may be a possibility but i have never heard it. i have also listened to Dr. Olukoya as well though not very much. i remember online there was a talk about him speaking against mouthaction or so, i don't know about condoms.
Like i have maintained, such teaching is NOT something taught in the Bible. As for the other global mainstream churches, i found this online

Catholic

They are against condoms but practice what they call natural family planning. The natural family planning is in itself unbiblical, as the Bible is against denying your married partner of sex.

Mainline Anabaptist denominations—have adopted statements indicating approval of modern methods of contraception.

Anglicanism
the responsibility for deciding upon the number and frequency of children was laid by God upon the consciences of parents "in such ways as are acceptable to husband and wife"

Baptists
prominent SBC leaders have spoken against a "contraceptive culture", affirming that nothing is inherently wrong with contraceptives, but encouraging couples to still have children and to view them as a blessing instead of an inconvenience.

Lutheranism
The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America allows for contraception in the event the potential parents do not intend to care for a child.

Methodism
The United Methodist Church holds "each couple has the right and the duty prayerfully and responsibly to control conception according to their circumstances".

Continental Reformed Churches
In 2003, the CRC synod declared that a married couple's decision whether or not to use birth control is a private, disputable matter. The church urges married couples to consider the size of their families prayerfully and encourages them to be motivated by a desire to glorify God and further his kingdom in their family planning.

Presbyterian Churches
The Presbyterian Church (USA) supports "full and equal access to contraceptive methods".

The United Church of Christ (UCC), a denomination of the Congregationalist tradition, promotes the distribution of condoms in churches and faith-based educational settings.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
The LDS Church's current stance is to leave birth control up to the discretion of individual couples:

Jehovah's Witnesses allow married couples to use birth control:

Evidently, the majority have nothing against birth control. Even the Catholics that seem to have encourage their form of family planning.

I specifically mentioned condom and the Catholic church does not support condom use. All those denominations combined are not more than Catholic church in size.

Xavier5:
I don't usually do threads because I'm not that active on Nairaland, but if you're interested, we can do it here 😎


#Xavier

OK. Go ahead, tell me your reasons for holding your position on abortion.

obonujoker:
That's why it's called a miracle

There is no difference between that and a scam. If I asked you to buy land and I tell you I don't have CofO but just believe me that I own it, will you buy?

TouchNfollow:
https://punchng.com/why-jesus-apostles-did-not-collect-tithes-adeboye/

SMH.

obonujoker:
Many today wont believe it Jonah told them he was swallowed by a fish....

Why should they believe in stories without evidence?

basilico:
You also forgot this. Texas Stock Exchange set to be launched.

The Texas Stock Exchange is taking shape. The TXSE, which aims to be a fully electronic national securities exchange to rival the New York Stock Exchange, revealed its executive leadership team and their notable credentials on Monday, September 30.

Good job Joe Biden?

2025 when they hope Dump will be in power? We'll see.