₦airaland Forum

martooski:
I HAVE BEING FOLLOWING THIS INTERESTING CONVERSATIONS. I THINK luckyCO has read so many bible passages upside down and downside up... he has however left behind the theology of the same scripture. this part is important for better understanding of t he scripture. One cant just open the bible and read and translate literally, we must also understand what is it that surround what the scripture and even the tradition of those it was written for.

The Bible is a collection of HOLY SCRIPTURE, it was not written at the same time unlike the HOLY QURAN which was a direct message thus it will seem clearer and straight. Am not an apostle that always use the BIBLE to check the imbalance of our world today, The church came before most of the scriptures where compiled. The tradition left us by the apostle was sufficient for early Christians until the advent of electronics ie. printer.

Viewing all the comments for and against Catholicism, it was obvious that the SCRIPTURE is the weapon of attack and defense, i want us all to examine the following verses of the HOLY BIBLE

John 21:25New International Version (NIV)
25 Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.[/b]

2 Thessalonians 2:15New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter [a]from us.[b]

2 Timothy 2:2King James Version (KJV)
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.[b][/b]


with the above verses the apostles of Jesus never intended that we are to argue over what is in the scripture or not in it.. the message is always clear Repent from our sins and strive towards holiness.

The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ, i believe so are others... so why throw muds at ourself. i want to believe in another writing of Saint Mar k
49“Master, said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in Your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not accompany us.” 50“Do not stop him,” Jesus replied, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”… and i believe when temptations like that comes our way we are to respond like OUR MERCIFUL FATHER.

The Church of Christ is HOLY, APOSTOLIC, and UNIVERSAL.

Thank you

easymancfc:
You have a caricature of Catholicism..

Yes Catholics prefer Catholic teaching to what one self-acclaimed "MAN OF GOD" says or teaches just like non Catholics believe in their own doctrine and interpretation of scripture and hold fast to it compared to what others teach or believe ... it's only right to follow your teachers ..... you seem to make yourself the judge over what is righteous and who has the Holy Spirit .... again I will quote the Romans 14 you insist to wrongly use out of context against Catholicism
Romans 14:3 Let not him who eats despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains pass judgment on him who eats; for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Master is able to make him stand.

1 cor 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. 4 I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. 5 Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.
Don't judge let God who sees the heart and knows our intentions judge

easymancfc:
Again you quote the Bible out of context...
Mat 23:8 doesn't mean there's no hierarchy in the church, YES ALL MEN ARE EQUAL BEFORE GOD BUT THAT DOESN'T TAKE AWAY FROM CHURCH HIERARCHY...

ALL THE APOSTLES ACKNOWLEDGED THEIR HIERARCHY OVER THEIR FLOCK IN SCRIPTURES...

PAUL..
1 cor 4:15 For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many FATHERS. For I became your FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel. 16 I urge you, then, be IMITATORS of ME.

PAUL TO TIMOTHY
1 Tim 1:2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith:
1 Tim 4:6 If you put these INSTRUCTIONS before the brethren, you will be a GOOD MINISTER of Christ Jesus,
11 Command and teach these things. 12 Let no one despise your youth, but set the believers an example in speech and conduct, in love, in faith, in purit

PAUL TO TITUS
Titus 1: 4 To Titus, my true child in a common faith:
5 This is why I left you in Crete, that you might AMEND WHAT WAS DEFECTIVE, and APPOINT ELDERS in every town as I directed you,
Titus 2:1 But as for you, teach what befits sound doctrine. 2 Bid the older men be temperate, serious, sensible, sound in faith, in love, and in steadfastness. 3 Bid the older women likewise to be reverent in behavior, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good
PETER
1 Peter 5:5 So I exhort the ELDERS among you, AS A FELLOW ELDER and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to
be revealed
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,..


others
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.
James 3:1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, for you know that we who teach shall be judged with greater strictness
1 Tim 5:17 Let the ELDERS who rule well be considered worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

AGAIN IN TRYING TO PROVE YOUR POINT YOU DENY WHAT SCRIPTURE SAYS... I URGE YOU AGAIN TO TAKE ALL SCRIPTURE INTO ACCOUNT...
2 Tim 3: 16 All scripture is inspired by God andprofitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

easymancfc:
there you go again... We Catholics believe and agree with Ezekiel 36... which Peter also emphasizes in Acts 2:38... So I don't know what you are talking about... We believe in baptism and according to Ezekiel and acts 2:38 the Holy Spirit comes after baptism, when it comes to your "baptism of the Holy Spirit", if you are talking about manifesting gift... then you Should know that everyone has different gifts see 1 cor 12:4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. as he wills.

SO UNLIKE WHAT HAPPENS IN PENTECOSTAL CHURCHES WHERE ONE PERSON CAN HAVE ALL THE GIFTS, IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH GIFTS ARE SPREAD AS THE SPIRIT SEES FIT...

Again I emphasize your ignoring what the Bible says about the physical body.
.

Again I emphasize your ignoring what the Bible says about the physical body.

Syncan:
I have told you not to go into things you have no knowledge of. You should at least learn the name of the city (i hope you know it is a place), It's Vatican and not Vertican as you keep writing.

The teaching of the Church at both councils is still same "There is no salvation outside the Church". In Vatican II, the church sees the need to explain further the meaning of that affirmation, just like St. Paul did in scriptures...let me enlighten you a bit on one aspect of it, I hope you'll appreciate it.

Have you ever read [b]John.4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Did you read that Salvation is of the Jews? You may ask:"what about those who worship what they know not, those who do not have the Law, how are they judged"? Now to answer that, long after Jesus had died, it became important that St. Paul treat the issue by explaining more, and this is what he wrote:
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Rom.2:14-16

Did you see how Paul gave more insight into the phrase? Note that this does not excuse the fact that whoever believes... is saved Jn.5:24, but whoever hears and don't believe is condemned already Jn.3:18. In same way the various councils throw more light on existing truths.

You, my friend, are no more in the category of those who haven't heard, You have listened to his words; harden not your heart.

easymancfc:
Romans 14:17, doesn't take anything away from the church,
I don't know where you get the drink part from, but a discipline to abstinence from meat, doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is not in the church or that the church doesn't preach righteousness ,
Stop making the Bible say what it doesn't... that's not the context is saying
the context is, if eating meat or drinking will make another stumble, then don't eat it

Ubenedictus:
OH, christ is d prime minister of his own kingdom abi? An then he gave the keys to peter? An the bible says in Is 22:22 that the one who receive the key of d kingdom is the prime minister?

how does that sound?

easymancfc:
Romans 14:17, doesn't take anything away from the church,
I don't know where you get the drink part from, but a discipline to abstinence from meat, doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is not in the church or that the church doesn't preach righteousness ,
Stop making the Bible say what it doesn't... that's not the context is saying
the context is, if eating meat or drinking will make another stumble, then don't eat it

Ubenedictus:
I don hear, your KING is the prime minister of your kingdom.
isnt that ridiculous to you? I guess it isn't, you have hardened your heart against the truth.

easymancfc:
With all due respect to you friend, you are the one choosing what to believe in scripture and deny others, your belief system is twisted, there's no analysis here, just what scripture says,
Verse singling of gal 2:20 doesn't help you.... the fact that Paul made that statement doesn't take away from the hierarchy of the physical Church after all he himself instructed Timothy and Titus to ordain church leaders in every town...
Or help your lies that we are spirits only...

TAKE ALL SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE, STOP DOING VERSE SINGLING AND PICK WHAT FITS YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM

easymancfc:
With all due respect to you friend, you are the one choosing what to believe in scripture and deny others, your belief system is twisted, there's no analysis here, just what scripture says,
Verse singling of gal 2:20 doesn't help you.... the fact that Paul made that statement doesn't take away from the hierarchy of the physical Church after all he himself instructed Timothy and Titus to ordain church leaders in every town...
Or help your lies that we are spirits only...

TAKE ALL SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE, STOP DOING VERSE SINGLING AND PICK WHAT FITS YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM

easymancfc:
With all due respect to you friend, you are the one choosing what to believe in scripture and deny others, your belief system is twisted, there's no analysis here, just what scripture says,
Verse singling of gal 2:20 doesn't help you.... the fact that Paul made that statement doesn't take away from the hierarchy of the physical Church after all he himself instructed Timothy and Titus to ordain church leaders in every town...
Or help your lies that we are spirits only...

TAKE ALL SCRIPTURE AS A WHOLE, STOP DOING VERSE SINGLING AND PICK WHAT FITS YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM

easymancfc:
What makes you a member of Christ body are:
Repentenace,Baptism,Holy Ghost baptism and santification.

You can see that from amongs those assemblies spiritual churches are formed, individual and personal to join the body of Christ and He is known of them.


Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

the point is, these 3000 people were added to a physical body of believers not just a spiritual one..

FOR US ITS BOTH, NOT EITHER SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL


ACCORDING TO THE WHOLE SCRIPTURE, THE CHURCH IS BOTH A PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL COMMUNITY OF BELIEVERS WITH CHRIST AS ITS HEAD

easymancfc:
First of all, WE ARE NOT SPIRITS, GOD IS,
WE ARE A BODY SOUL COMPOSITE... again you misinterprete scripture
John 4: 24 GOD IS SPIRIT, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 

GOD IS THE SPIRIT NOT US...

we are a body soul composite like Jesus himself said
Mat 10: 28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell...

We worship God with our bodies also
Not just with our Spirits

1 cor 6: The body is not meant for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power. 15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I therefore take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never! 16 Do you not know that he who joins himself to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, “The two shall become one.” 17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him

Romans 12:1  I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your BODIES as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship

and OUR BODIES will be resurrected albeit in a glorified state
Paul talks about it in
1 cor 15
Hebrews 6: 2 with instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the RESURRECTION OF the DEAD, and eternal judgment.


Concerning passing on authority...

Paul tells two of his disciples Timothy and Titus to ordain new leaders (Bishops and deacons) to give them power and authority By laying hands on them just as they were ordained ...
(see 1 Tim 3:1-13, 2 Tim 2:2, 2 Tim 1:6-7, 1 Tim 4:14,)

We can deduce from here, that power and authority can be passed by laying on of hands from the apostles and their successors, Paul told Timothy, Titus, etc, Peter would have told John Mark, etc...

jnrbayano:
As many as 3 people have shown you great love by taking time to explaining things to you but religious pride won't let you.

May the holy spirit move on your case. Amen.

Syncan:
Ah, dear friend, when you sacrifice "sound teaching" Titus.2:1 on the alter of "revelations" that is when you get all these contradictory teachings and pastor-preneurs. God is not and can never be the author of confusion. He has one fold Jn.17:21. God's whole truth is one, and His Church is the foundation of this truth. Do not ascribe these false and contradictory teachings everywhere today in Christendom as coming from God, you are wrong! The true Church jealously guards against contradictory teachings 2Cor.11:4, even St. Paul had the good mind to go and confirm his teachings as one with the apostles Gal.2:2.

You delve into things you don't know about when you talk of Vatican 1 and 2, these are councils held by the church. Just like Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 was held in Jerusalem, we have the Vatican councils held in Vatican; at different times, to handle pressing matters facing the Church. This continues to be one apostolic tradition that is visible to everyone. It doesn't contradict each other, it throws more light on things(as the holy spirit continues to reveal), and upholds earlier concluded ones. Stop listening to falsehood peddlers and rumor mongers.

Oh you're embarrassed by the weakness of peter, afraid that building the Church on him will make the church no longer a pillar of truth. That means you will try to hide Eph.5:24-27 "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing... even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish". Truth is that, on her own; the church isn't perfect, but United with Christ, the Church shines forth in glory and holiness. Do not be astonished my friend, I will say to you in Christ's words "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible" Matt.19:26

These lies you've held on to is now making you quarrel with scriptures, forget these deceptions that have led you astray, retrace your steps and the truth shall set you free.

easymancfc:
What makes you a member of Christ body are:
Repentenace,Baptism,Holy Ghost baptism and santification.

You can see that from amongs those assemblies spiritual churches are formed, individual and personal to join the body of Christ and He is known of them.


Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”
42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

the point is, these 3000 people were added to a physical body of believers not just a spiritual one..

FOR US ITS BOTH, NOT EITHER SPIRITUAL OR PHYSICAL


ACCORDING TO THE WHOLE SCRIPTURE, THE CHURCH IS BOTH A PHYSICAL AND SPIRITUAL COMMUNITY OF BELIEVERS WITH CHRIST AS ITS HEAD

easymancfc:
No sir, it is you who Is wrong, the second Adam (Jesus ) Is not Spirit, he was also man, of flesh and blood, and he didn't ascend as a Spiritual being but as flesh and blood in his glorified body, that is why he could eat fish and bread with his disciples see john 21, that is why Thomas could put his hands. Into the holes made by nails and his side... See John 20:24-28

Jesus was a visible person on earth not just a spirit, so too were the disciplines he appointed and gave his mission...

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father. 

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who wereunder the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons.

Hebrews 4: 15 For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sinning. 

Even when Paul was persecuting the Church in Jerusalem... People not Spirit ...
Jesus calls the physical people Paul was killing his body
Acts 9: 5 And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;

and who was Paul persecuting?
Acts 8:1 answers the question
And on that day a great persecution arose against the church in Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the region of Judea and Samar′ia, except the apostles

and what is this church in Jerusalem?
Acts 2:4 4 And all who believed were together and had all things in common;
47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Acts 4:3 2 Now the company of those who believed were of one heart and soul, and no one said that any of the things which he possessed was his own, but they had everything in common.

SO IT IS CLEAR THAT FROM THE EARLY DAYS OF CHRISTIANITY, AFTER PENTECOST THAT THE "CHURCH IS THE PHYSICAL COMMUNITY OF BELIEVERS ... NOT JUST THEIR SPIRITS...

Ubenedictus:
Ha! you have been fed horse dung.

You do not need to wait till the milenium to be a member of God's kingdom, the kingdom has began already, the son of man has already receive the kingdom and all sovereignty.

The prophesy of scripture say that a King is coming who will reign on the throne of his father david, Jesus is that king and the reign has began.
The davidic kingdom has someone who receive and holds the keys of the kingdom Isaiah 22:22, the keys are the unmistaken insignia of the prime minister, so when Jesus d davidic king gives someone the keys of his kingdom, that clearly show he had made him prime minister of his kingdom.

easymancfc:
The Body of Christ indeed has a spiritual dimension but it is not "PURELY SPIRITUAL LIKE YOU SAY"...
the Bible talks about the church as the body of Christ in a physical dimension not only in a Spiritual dimension

1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the HOUSEHOLD of GOD, which is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and BULWARK of the TRUTH...

A household is a physical thing first before being spiritual, A household consists of physical people...

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

Like I said earlier, A household consists of physical people...

Ephesians 4:11 And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,

Again if it was only a Spiritual dimension it wouldn't need physical offices or officers

Gal 1:2 and all the brethren who are with me, To the churches of Galatia:

Paul was not writing to spirits. but to an assembly or gathering or convocation or Household of people...

we see same in
1 thess 1 Paul, Silva′nus, and Timothy,

To the church of the Thessalo′nians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

To Jesus, his Church is not just to be a Spiritual one but a physical one, that's why he said in Mathew 18:15 “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. 17 If he refuses to listen to them, TELL IT TO THE CHURCH; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

how can you tell a Spiritual Church in "Peoples heart" to settle a physical case between brethren...

Paul emphasizes this right of the physical Church to judge cases among believers in

1 cor 6: 1When one of you has a grievance against a brother, does he dare go to law before the unrighteous instead of the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life! 4 If then you have such cases, why do you lay them before those who are least esteemed by the church?

It is this Physical Church that Paul says is the Pillar and bulwark of truth in 1 Tim 3:15...
.
AM NOT SAYING THE CHURCH DOESN'T HAVE A SPIRITUAL ASPECT BUT AM NOT DENYING THE OBVIOUS PHYSICAL ASPECT...
the aspect that the world can see
WHICH JESUS HIMSELF PRAYED FOR IN
John 17:20 “I do not pray for these only, BUT ALSO FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE in me THROUGH THEIR WORD, 21 THAT THEY MAY ALL BE ONE; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us, so THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAST SENT ME.

whether we like it or not, the church is composed of flesh and blood human being, and all human association require leadership... and this leadership is not unique to the Catholic Church....
.DEEPER LIFE have Kumuyi
LIVING FATH have Oyedepo
MOUNTAIN OF FIRE have Odukoya
REDEEM have Adeboye
DUNAMIS have Enenche
Even
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES Have The Governing Body...
No one acuses those leadership which are Man made

but Peter who Jesus picked in John 21:15-26 and Luke 22:32 is difficult for people to accept because it is related to the Catholic Church, .....
IT IS WELL

Syncan:
I wonder if you even understand where you're going with this. I have in very simple terms; and laced with scripture, tried to show you how the Church is both Physical and spiritual. You may continue in your error, mine is to lay the truth before you. Even in the face of obvious miracle of healing a man blind from birth, the Jews still chose to believe anything else but the truth. First they believed it wasn't the blind man, then they believed he wasn't blind, then they believed that God did it but via a sinner, they could take anything else but to attest that Jesus is of God Jn.9. You have missed your way, you need to retrace your steps back to your starting point, then you can start moving in the right direction which I have pointed out to you. Do not continue in that deception that the church is "All Join", the church is not that, for she has "One lord, one Faith, one Baptism" Eph.4:5.

You may have problem with Peter's weakness, but the God of the Church is the one who "choose the weak to confound the strong" 1Cor.1:27, do not forget that. He has promised the gate of hell will not overcome her, even as He is building it upon Peter as the visible leader. Over the years the gates of hell have really been ferocious, in the form of Roman persecutions, heretics and schismatics, protestantism, modernism, etc, without success. Jesus had said "no shaking" and I believe him, He will be with the Church till the end of time.

Ubenedictus:
My dear, the bible says the kingdom of God is alread in your midst, if u don't know this i wonder what they teach u guys in church.

Christ is king and he gave peter the symbol of the office of prime ministe cf. Is 22

Syncan:
Like in most of what you've been saying, there are elements of truths in them, yet you apply these truths wrongly by not acknowledging other truths. So in using partial truths to reach a conclusion, you get to a faulty end.

The Church is both spiritual and Physical. The word "Church" in greek is ekklesia which means "convocation." It designates the assembly of those whom God's Word "convokes," i.e., gathers together to form the People of God, and who themselves, nourished with the Body of Christ, become the Body of Christ. The physical Church is called the body of Christ, and that's why St. Paul noted thus "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" Eph.4:11-12. This physical Church is also described as the fold, members are described as the sheep, leaders are described as shepherds. Because there exists a physical fold, that's why there could be other sheep that are outside the fold Jn 10:16. It however was the intention of Christ that they may be one Jn.17:21. Christ while here called himself the good shepherd, then he expressly told Peter particularly in the presence of others, to feed his sheep, and strengthen his brethren John 21:15- 17, Lk.22:31-32. Three times did he call only him, three times did he repeat his mandate to only him, for the avoidance of doubt, yet its a pity its still been debated here.

In Matt.16:18, Jesus talked about the Kingdom, to which he made peter the Prime minister(Key as symbol). There must be order, organisation in the fold, that's why there was succession to the seat of Judas, that's why though Jesus never mentioned deacons and Bishops; the apostles installed them. That's why there was a council in Jerusalem. Disobedience to this structure is what led to this chaos in Christendom today, where one tells the congregation to eat grass, and another says those who observe Sunday as day of rest will go to hell. Believing the Church as spiritual only is self deceit, a mirage, to think that somewhat God authors all these contradictions from various pulpits is a pity.

It is good you pointed out that devil would attempt to destroy the church by accusing Peter, but have you forgotten that Jesus foretold that Peter as a person wasn't going to be perfect LK.22:31-32, but he assured him of his rise, and charged him to strengthen the rest brethren, to whom else was this mandate given? You talk about Gal.2:11-12, but didn't you see what now happened in Acts 15:7 ? Jesus already talked about these things, it shouldn't be a bother to you, just believe Him. What you should rather concern yourself is why it was important that Paul take his teachings back to the apostles for confirmation, "lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain". Gal.2:2

The Church exists which has it's origin from Christ. This church is one (I agree with you). She is holy, in the sense that it is the body of Christ, in her holiness she has produced holy men and women over the years and her teachings and acts continue to guide men and women towards holiness. This Church can trace its existence and authority back to the apostles. This church is universal in outreach. That's how to Identify this Church.

Ubenedictus:
what nonesense did u write @ bold?

How can u call Jesus the prime minister of d kingdom when he is KING? IS KING AND MINISTER THE SAME? Is it mistake or ignorance?

Ubenedictus:
No sir, you are pointing me to heresy while i am showing the plain words of Jesus. It was Jesus who gave peter the keys in matt 16:19 making him the prime minister in his kingdom. cf is 22.

Ubenedictus:
OYA READ!
The problem is you do not read becos a few verses later Jesus tells us who has the duty of strengthening the brethren and it is peter

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen
thy brethren.

Ubenedictus:
peter is not the only sherpherd no, he isnt, but he was the servant who was specifically given charge of the sheep. That is the meaning of having d keys, the keys is given to d prime minister...there are other ministers but only 1 has d keys i.e D prime minister

Ephesians 2:20
New International Version
built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.
Apostles and Prophets here is talking about Old testament prophets and new testament apostles

We dont need to build another foundation, Jesus already founded the church on the apostles and principally peter matt 16.

Ubenedictus:
round and round he goes.

Ubenedictus:
THE BIBLE IS CLEAR ENOUGH AND THE LITERAL INTERPRETATION IS JUST FINE.
1. Jesus changed his name, which means he change his destiny and marked him out 4 an important role.
2. He say he will buid his church on him.
3. He gives him d keys i.e authority over d church.
4.power 2 bind nd lose

easymancfc:
We don't magnify Peter above his Place in the Catholic Church, the Bible clearly gives him a primacy among the apostles... it's anti-Catholic people who bring him down in order to make the Catholic Church look bad...
THIS IS WHAT THE BIBLE HAS TO SAY
Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of
Heaven: whatever you bind on earth will be
bound in Heaven; whatever you loose on earth
will be loosed. in Heaven.
Mark 16:7
Angel sent to announce the Resurrection to
Peter.
Luke 22:32
Peter's faith will strengthen his brethren.
Note: The word you [I have prayed for
you.]
The Greek is in the personal tense, not
the plural like:
All you Apostles .
Luke 24:34
Risen Jesus first appeared to Peter.
John 21:17
Given Christ's flock as chief shepherd.
Acts 1:13-26
Peter headed meeting which elected Matthias to
replace Judas.
Acts 2:14
Peter received the first converts.
Acts 3:6-7
Peter performed the first miracle after
Pentecost.
Acts 5:1-11
Peter's words inflict deadly punishment on
Ananias and Saphira.
Acts 8:21
Peter excommunicated the first heretic, Simon
Magnus.
Acts 10:44-46
Peter received a revelation to admit the Gentles
into the Church.
Acts 15
Peter Lead the first Catholic council in
Jerusalem.
Acts 15:7-12
Peter spoke saying: "My brothers, he said, ....
But we believe that we are saved in the same
way as they are: through the grace of the Lord
Jesus." The entire assembly fell silent, and they
listened to Barnabas and Paul describing all the
signs and wonders God had worked through them
among the gentiles."
Peter pronounces the first dogmatic decision.
Galatians 1:18
After his conversion, Paul visits the chief
Apostle.
Matthew 10:1-4 , Mark 3:16-19 , Luke 6:14-16 ,
Acts 1:13
Peter's name always heads the list of Apostles.
Matthew 18:21 , Mark 8:29 , Luke 12:41 , John 6:69
Peter spoke for the Apostles.
Luke 9:32 , Mark 16:7
Peter and his companions.
Peter is mentioned 191 times in the New
Testament. All the other Apostles names
combined are mentioned only 130 times. And the
most commonly referenced apostle apart from
Peter is John, whose name appears 48 times.

Remember what the Bible says
1 Tim 5:17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching;

SO DON'T BRING DOWN WHOM THE LORD HAS HONOURED...

Concerning the Rock argument...
It is clear that Peter is the Rock on which Christ would build his Church according to Mathew 16.. because Christ would not praised his answer, put him down by calling him small stone and then give him authority... it follows that Christ praised his answer, Exalted him and then gave him authority... Besides if Christ was putting him down, the Change of name from "SIMON" To "PETER" would not be necessary instead, according to scriptures change of name normally shows a rise to importance or greatness, ABRAM to ABRAHAM and SARAI to SARAH was for increase them from just been "FATHER " to being "FATHER OF MANY NATIONS" see gen 17:5-15... Same goes for the name change from Simon to Peter...

we know that Christ is the Rock but Christ also calls Peter the Rock... 1 cor 10:4 doesn't take away from Christ because Paul who made that statement also calls the apostles of which Peter is the head " THE FOUNDATION OF THE CHURCH WITH CHRIST AS THE CORNER STONE and so does John who called them the foundation of the new Jerusalem see
Ephesians 2:19bbut you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the HOUSEHOLD OF GOD, 20 BUILT UPON the FOUNDATION of the APOSTLES and PROPHETS, CHRIST JESUS HIMSELF being the CORNERSTONE,

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had TWELVE FOUNDATIONS, and on them the twelve names of the TWELVE APOSTLES of the LAMB.

Ubenedictus:
see your protestant bible
John 1:42
New International Version (NIV) 42
And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter[a])

. Footnotes: a. John 1:42 Cephas (Aramaic) and Peter (Greek) both mean rock


EXB Then Andrew took Simon to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas.” (“Cephas”
means “Peter.”) [C Both Aramaic Cephas and Greek Petros mean “rock.”]

Syncan:
Now he diverts attention. Did you, or whoever you're listening to, misrepresent scripture or not, as pointed out by me? You build your claim on false premise and hope it becomes true. Just see the way you conveniently used "little stone" for Peter in Matt.16:18, and used Rock for Christ in 1 Cor.10:4 . Yet both are same in Greek. Only the truth can set you free, know the truth, speak it always. I have shown you your error, now you've heard His words harden not your heart as at meribah.

If you agree that you were wrong in thinking that Peter means "little stone", then we can start to disabuse your mind from the false teachings that prevents you from knowing the whole truth with regards to succession.